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Change to remove travel-truce exploit
*sam*
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The following change will be made very soon: a squad will only be able to perform one truce with non-trader opposition during any one journey leg. This is to stop the exploit whereby players run un-armoured and unguarded lorries full of fuel between towns.


edit: I'm still discussing the best way to do this... the mechanism listed above probably isn't the best way.
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Posted Oct 20, 2015, 10:43 pm Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 10:35 am by *sam*
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Excellent! I am getting a box of tissues out in advance... actually, might need 2 boxes!
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Posted Oct 20, 2015, 11:19 pm
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Wow, that will make travel to Sarsfield and Firelight, from Badlands much more challenging.
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Posted Oct 20, 2015, 11:28 pm
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Just one point comes to mind. Will there be any changes to the negotiator spec made along with this? Seems pretty directly related.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 12:00 am
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You'll still be able to auto-truce friendly factions?
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:05 am
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Heli_Onerth said:
You'll still be able to auto-truce friendly factions?


Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:07 am
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This is tying two issues together - good rep allowing truces being one, and unarmored/unarmed lorries being the other - and packaging them into one solution under the guise of being a solution for only one issue.

The far simpler solution, would be to treat these as separate issues, and resolve each individually. So, if it's unarmored, unarmed lorries you wish to be rid of, then require proper engines and armor in trade vehicles - perhaps, a minimum CR requirement.

As for the effect of reps and travels this will have, I think we will find noobs, and even greenies and some vets, discouraged from moving around at all outside the Northern Triangle, perhaps not even within it.

For a game which already requires so much individual time and effort to get off your feet, stay alive, and then stay competitive, this is also going to add HUGE hours of travel processing in the busier corridors, further discouraging exploration south of Gateway.

Also, I am questioning that this is now an "exploit". This topic hasn't been openly broached in some time, and the last time it was (I think over a year ago), it was determined to NOT be an exploit. Is this a reversal?

Furthermore, who is running unarmored and unarmed lorries around? Because I thought any spying or reporting on other players was a violation of the Terms of Service. Ergo, any other player who spies upon or investigates other players, or otherwise makes any report on them outside of a ToS grievance, has themselves committed a ToS violation. Any individual running their travels in such a manner, would have to openly admit to it.

And finally, what of all the other fixes we have been waiting on, some for years? I can't imagine that this became an issue more recently than things like messed up hit boxes, various chassis dances, *ahem* reliable purple, or even the fact that a mutie gang in Morgan spawns all normies. Why is this all of a sudden such an issue, in fact changing from being a non-exploit to an exploit, without public discussion, overnight?
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:23 am
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Lets see if i understand what your saying.
If i attack civs to keep my mutie rep high, your gonna force me to fight muties because someone took advantage of your obviously undeveloped game.
Its hard enough for new players to get around with their developing characters. Now your gonna force them to fight against their hard fought allies because developed players (incl their alts, yeesh) who have reaped the benefits of pre-steam character resets (i f'n wish) and used a game mechanic you can't seem to fix without screwing the honest players.
Maybe you could just temp/perma ban the abusers, lmfao.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:31 am Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 3:44 am by HexGrid
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Heli_Onerth said:
You'll still be able to auto-truce friendly factions?


Not if you run into them more than twice & their non-civs.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:33 am
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So to fix 1-2 players your making factions obsolete.
Force us to fight our OWN FACTION if we bump into 2 pirates on 1 trip? I have had the SAME gang hit my trav 3 times.

This seems to be a rush idea without thought IMO
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:45 am
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I take it Grimm found another loophole to drive trucks through.

I think this change is ill advised: as likely to cause a problem -- of multiple, overly long convoy battles -- as to solve the problem of singleton blockade runners.

A better solution would be to predetermine the CR strength/composition of the intercepting force and allow the ratio of CRs to modify the chance of truce.

Personally, I find most encounters fairly tiresome and preordained, so more of them won't add to my enjoyment of the game.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:57 am Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 2:28 am by Tallus
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Or possibly take a look at how rep is gained, as it is now you can have all factions like you at the same time.

It dosnt take much to get good reps with gangs but it is a time consuming balancing act and forces numerous squads in many locations.

Just because i killed your foe dosnt mean im your budy.

Dont make me kill my buddy because i run into him 2 times in 1 trip.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 2:10 am
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Another possibility would be to track relationship between individual gangs as well as factions.

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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 2:22 am
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*sam* said:
The following change will be made very soon:  a squad will only be able to perform one truce with non-trader opposition during any one journey leg. This is to stop the exploit whereby players run un-armoured and unguarded lorries full of fuel between towns.


This wont stop that.  This will just mean the people with Alt accounts get a 1 up over people with excessive time to devote to actually playing instead of exploiting the game.

for example:  I don't truce at all.  and I run unarmored 2L Lorries.  Its called the "Park and Fight" or the "Kill the Enemy" method.

You take 2 Lorries with 1 crew, 3-4 escorts with 2 of them short 1 crew,  At the beginning of the fight you park the lorries, get out and board the combat vehicles, Kill everything, then get back in the Lorries and drive off.

Though some people argue that's cheating, its the same as when you fight a return when you exit the loot car to re-enter the combat vehicles.  If "Park and Fight" is cheating when using a Lorry then its also cheating to exit a Loot car.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 3:05 am
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HexGrid said:
Heli_Onerth said:
You'll still be able to auto-truce friendly factions?


Not if you run into them more than twice & their non-civs.


Lets not forget another long running bug where you meet the same gang over and over and over.  I have on more occasions than I can count encountered the same gang (Same drivers even) on 10 out of 11 encounters from SF to SS.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 3:13 am
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*StCrispin* said:
*sam* said:
The following change will be made very soon:  a squad will only be able to perform one truce with non-trader opposition during any one journey leg. This is to stop the exploit whereby players run un-armoured and unguarded lorries full of fuel between towns.


This wont stop that.  This will just mean the people with Alt accounts get a 1 up over people with excessive time to devote to actually playing instead of exploiting the game.

for example:  I don't truce at all.  and I run unarmored 2L Lorries.  Its called the "Park and Fight" or the "Kill the Enemy" method.

You take 2 Lorries with 1 crew, 3-4 escorts with 2 of them short 1 crew,  At the beginning of the fight you park the lorries, get out and board the combat vehicles, Kill everything, then get back in the Lorries and drive off.

Though some people argue that's cheating, its the same as when you fight a return when you exit the loot car to re-enter the combat vehicles.  If "Park and Fight" is cheating when using a Lorry then its also cheating to exit a Loot car.


Wowsers dude, that takes ballz and definitely is not exploiting, salute.
ps. impressed :)
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 3:39 am
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*StCrispin* said:
*sam* said:
The following change will be made very soon:  a squad will only be able to perform one truce with non-trader opposition during any one journey leg. This is to stop the exploit whereby players run un-armoured and unguarded lorries full of fuel between towns.


This wont stop that.  This will just mean the people with Alt accounts get a 1 up over people with excessive time to devote to actually playing instead of exploiting the game.

for example:  I don't truce at all.  and I run unarmored 2L Lorries.  Its called the "Park and Fight" or the "Kill the Enemy" method.

You take 2 Lorries with 1 crew, 3-4 escorts with 2 of them short 1 crew,  At the beginning of the fight you park the lorries, get out and board the combat vehicles, Kill everything, then get back in the Lorries and drive off.

Though some people argue that's cheating, its the same as when you fight a return when you exit the loot car to re-enter the combat vehicles.  If "Park and Fight" is cheating when using a Lorry then its also cheating to exit a Loot car.


I don't see a problem with park and fight.  Never heard of it, but you're still leaving your lorries there and risking damage to them.  I don't see it getting you much advantage... Maybe I'm missing something?

Who do you know with alt accounts? :)  That's a no-no.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 3:40 am
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Unoccupied vehicle will not be intentionally fired on by the AI. Making them and their cargo somewhat safe unless a stray shot hits them or they get rammed.

I haven't done this in a while since I got jumped 18 vs 3 at SS Gates and my Negotiator 5 scout couldn't truce my own "liked" allies (and was subsequently killed in the fight)

That and my lack of time to play since the baby.


Sam: FIX THE BUG THAT CAUSES YOU TO ALWAYS GET THE SAME GANG ON EVERY ENCOUNTER PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! (That bug will make this change that much more odious)

Also fix the Rep system... It has been broken since we discussed this same issue a year or more ago. The broken rep system is what is at the heart of this "Truce everyone" problem.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 3:52 am
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Your saying I spent 5 (Real Life) years training my scouts and Building/Keeping Global Fame to truce Once??? What a waste of Time and Effort!! I am Merchant faction and run 4-6 couriers ALL the time and have my fair share of encounters without This NEW change!

Flame!! B)
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 4:51 am
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Tallus said:
I take it Grimm found another loophole to drive trucks through.



Not I, i ran some lorrys to EF from SS over a month ago, each had 42 armor per side and a 8L engine. Those are the only lorry travels i'eve done since i returned to play in July.

I'm not subbed and can't even travel outside of the northern triangle, so point your finger elsewhere.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 4:54 am
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