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The Big Question, vehicle placement and grudges

Simple Zed Sand Goblins Pedestrian Slavers Faction Group: Awaiting Activation Posts: 24 Joined: Oct 26, 2011 Juris said: Noobs don't have buzzers - at least by my definition.  It took me months before I got my first buzzer. Kurtis cursed out Groove for his own stupid mistake and Groove retaliated. This had nothing to do with the PvP flag - it was team targeting Juan killed Goat's guys in a glad event with an alt account about a year ago - this was personal payback - and it was 1 on 1.  Juan can always retaliate - he has better guys and equipment.  Brunwulf lost a Buzzer he'd spent 2 months doing mail runs for up to 6 hours a day to afford.  Event S483635 occured August 12th.  Brunwulf joined May 17th so he was less than 3 months into his subscription at the time.  By your definition, is that noob enough?  Or fair game?  Remember, a squad of mostly musclecars matched off against 3 Buzzers.  Lasers, Car Cannons, and Heavy Gatling Guns dispatched Snipe's squad pretty quickly.  The skill imbalance is obvious - watch the replay.  The attacker was a 3 year veteran. Kurtis overreacted verbally.  It's bad policy to contest right of way with a lorry, worse to freak out when you get thrown into the wall by it.  And yes, this was during a DEATH RACE (Event 205391).  Team targetting wasn't an issue because anyone could shoot anyone.  But the only one that was really fired upon was the 5 month subscriber.  The noob's parked car was shot to bits and his crew was redded out after he had disconnected.  The attacker was a 4 year veteran. Goat, Juan tells me it wasn't him that took out your folks in that Glad event.  Regardless of whether that's the case or not, you have countless other grudges against him that I have no right to judge.  You got your revenge.  I get it.  But where is this going?  Say for the sake of argument, you manage to drive him from the game.  After you're done with a marathon "happy dance", what next?  Will this swell, self-policing, community need another JV to single out for treatment?  Having a mechanism like same team targeting lying around gathering dust would seem such a waste, would it not? Maybe if nobody's cheating at the moment, other sins might be escalated.  Maybe folks that post their unsanctioned opinions impudently on these forums need to get special treatment.  Once those have been driven off, or at least shut up, then what? Regardless, Goat, I hope these posts don't seem disrespectful to you.  I understand your vexation.  I understand that the same team targeting tool got used exactly how it was intended.  An individual got singled out, blindsided, and dispatched.  My goal here is to point out that PvP in many cases is not even remotely enjoyable for the victim, nor is it fair.  So before anyone gets any serious ideas about fiddling further with the PvP flag, say by allowing others to choose what your flag should be set to, let's keep these three recent examples in mind.  Further expanding PvP to jeapordize unwilling participants will not enhance the game. ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 5, 2012, 6:44 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 3 months of gametime at up to 6 hours a day, heavy equipment, scouting outside of somerset. Doesn't sound like a new player to me. Also keep in mind that at the time Snipe could have simply paid a bounty and escaped the PvP encounter with no losses. Not to mention that it's not impossible to beat a buzzer squad, even with a pure muscle car squad, as long as people are willing to give more than a token effort. Verbal abuse has no place in this game. Killing other peoples cars/characters does. That's always been the case, regardless of the PvP rules in place to limit the occurance. As far as the attack on Juan goes, there's been bad blood between Goat/Juan for ages, there was nothing stopping Juan from fighting back. If someone I had pissed off set their car up behind MINE I'd wait until the timer was counting down and then reposition just before event started, and take the skag out myself instead of whinging about it. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 8:05 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Zed said: Brunwulf lost a Buzzer he'd spent 2 months doing mail runs for up to 6 hours a day to afford.  Event S483635 occured August 12th.  Brunwulf joined May 17th so he was less than 3 months into his subscription at the time.  By your definition, is that noob enough?  Or fair game?  Remember, a squad of mostly musclecars matched off against 3 Buzzers.  Lasers, Car Cannons, and Heavy Gatling Guns dispatched Snipe's squad pretty quickly.  The skill imbalance is obvious - watch the replay.  The attacker was a 3 year veteran. Kurtis overreacted verbally.  It's bad policy to contest right of way with a lorry, worse to freak out when you get thrown into the wall by it.  And yes, this was during a DEATH RACE (Event 205391).  Team targetting wasn't an issue because anyone could shoot anyone.  But the only one that was really fired upon was the 5 month subscriber.  The noob's parked car was shot to bits and his crew was redded out after he had disconnected.  The attacker was a 4 year veteran. On face value this stuff is a little concerning, but, you do lose stuff in this game. That doesn't mean its over. The people that take you out could well end up giving you heaps of neato toys and stuff if you just play with them. Just bear with the game and keep playing. Just because your buzzer is gone and you worked hard for it does not mean the end of life. It took me over a year to get a buzzer, I refused to buy one for ages, I refused to buy any goodies, it was a bit of a game breaker for me to be honest. Goat recently put on a special event, where he gathers heaps of really cool stuff together and lets people keep it afterwards. He used to put these on quite regularly, often with millions of dollars worth of his own gear. I got my first pike and BPU this way. 30+ buzzers went up for offer the last event... thats 30+ buzzers! 30... plus! thats... oh never mind. Goat, Joel, Groove... they are not going to hit you and keep taking your stuff to try break your gang just for kicks (well, then again...  ). If you make an offensive action in this game, be prepared to take it on the chin. Its just a game people! Laugh, have fun, be merry.. you don't like the heat stay outa the kitchen like I do most of the time. Nothing ever happened to me I didn't ask for. I taunted the AI once, they beat on me and killed half my gang ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 9:59 am Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 10:01 am by *Bastille*

Iron Wraith Iron Wraiths Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 818 Joined: Feb 2, 2009 I do wish people here would play the ball not the man. Goat has publiclay declared he has a downer on Juan. Juan let his guard down and got chopped. As Goat placed his car right behind Juan in the set up and drove into him in the first phase then a RAM would have been a simple thing to manage. With the right combination of hardware it could have been fatally effective. Some forum elements are unavailable no matter how good the serach engine. Sometimes inflamatory posts are deleted by marshalls, some of the forums are only available to subscribers, some of the conflab has also occurred in the lobby where there is of course no audit trail. If you have less information you are necessarily arguing from a less informed position. Your argument may still be illogical, invalid, inconsistent or just plain dumb of course as being informed doesn't necessarily confer any magical ability to correctly process that information to reach a consesus opinion(otherwise everyone would vote for the same people - as it is an election year). Let Goat and Juan fight it out, we can all use their fued as evidence when we want to argue our favourite side of the PvP debate. Just the facts maam. And for opinon: Don't risk what you can't afford to loose. If the AI were as good as it should be you'ld be risking it every scout anyway. ......................... vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 11:00 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 K1500 said: Mercury boards have numerous ways of accessing the information within them. Either way your assumption was that I would only read material which had been posted since I joined the game - I'm interested in the history of what has gone on before and I have done what I can to gain some sort of historical perspective about what has shaped the game in it's current form. nope.. my assumption (fact) was that you dont have access to the developers forum, marshalls forum etc.. and that you dont have access to PMs you are next  was obviously a joke.. but I should have realised you don't have much of a sense of humour my track record speaks for itself.. i have never 'ganked' a newb... never PVP'd people without them having plenty of warning to expect it, when i have accidentally hit a new player or an unarmed car when searching for player squads i let them go, when i have beaten people in PVP (Hallen and his Firetruck) I have given them back their cars. You can try to paint this as a different picture but, like all arguments about PVP in this game, peoples fears and reality are wildly divergent.. and yours are diverging so far from reality that they are becoming ridiculous. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 12:49 pm Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 3:26 pm by goat starer

*JeeTeeOh* Loose Cannons Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,796 Joined: Oct 18, 2010 Marshal JeeTeeOh said: Goat and K1500 -- Let's shut down the personal back-and-forth and stick to the issue at hand. Otherwise we'll have to delete/edit those portions of your posts (at the very least). Thanks in advance. ......................... vet wv e2g marshal cont deathrceL1 sssc Posted Oct 5, 2012, 3:55 pm

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 *JeeTeeOh* said: Marshal JeeTeeOh said: Goat and K1500 -- I'm a sourpuss that likes laughing at NFL players wearing pink. Please make wide sweeping statements to back your arguments, its more fun than laughing at NFL players wearing pink. If you don't we'll have to delete/edit those portions of your posts to suit our own entertainment needs(at the very least). Thanks in advance. Fixed that for you. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 4:00 pm

*Jagged Monkey* Bazooka Joes Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 594 Joined: Jul 13, 2010 30 plus Buzzers!! Why that's like 3 Buzzers times 10! I've lost about a dozen of those things. I got over it. It's really not that big of a deal. ......................... vet wv combatL1 semiprocombat marshal elmsautumn northernsummer0,1,0 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 5:51 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 *JeeTeeOh* said: Keep things in context. Don't be a Juan. I think this is the best public service announcement ever! Words from a wise man! ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 6:26 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 K1500 said: Lets be clear about this - this community is not self policing as there is no framework laid out to allow this to occur - without a clear framwork to operate under it is simply player base factionality being enacted in the game. Idk what your definition of "self policing' is but mine is ... On one end of the spectrum A person does something a little bad for long enough period time  which hurts the community deserves to get smacked. On the other hand of the spectrum A total jerk/unfaire/griever goes out and (out of spite) to ruin people's fun IRL, deserves to get beat down and squashed repeatedly as fast as possible (this has never happened of course, not even a player named  Shark) Goat doesn't have to play the 'self policing', he already has a good enough personal reason for payback based on his injustice from last year. ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Oct 5, 2012, 7:00 pm Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 7:01 pm by *Tinker*

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 FireFly said: LOGIC! Think about it for a second, and you'll see why some who thought it trough actually voted no on that poll, I believe Joel did as well if I remember right, might be wrong but I believe this is part of the point he cba to make anymore. You saying 5 people s are smart because they voted no? *hold breath* 1st of all I think Joel voted no because flags weren't abolished 2nd Maybe a lot of people voted because they felt the compromise was suitable, at least that was my excuse, and btw I totally thought this through, Even if I really wanted no flags grrr. ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Oct 5, 2012, 7:11 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 *Tinker* said: FireFly said: LOGIC! You saying 5 people s are smart because they voted no? *hold breath* 1st of all I think Joel voted no because flags weren't abolished 2nd Maybe a lot of people voted because they felt the compromise was suitable, at least that was my excuse, and btw I totally thought this through, Even if I really wanted no flags grrr. 1. Allow people to supposedly 100% opt out of wilderness PvP. 2. Allow people to teamkill said players who opted out in wilderness PvP in wilderness PvE events, with even less safety (Bounty/surrender) to fall back on. It is not a good compromise at all, this is the problem, it was poor wording on my part to imply people are stupid for voting yes. What I meant was that if you look at it you'll see that it's pretty damn backwards. The first one is exactly what the NoN-PvP crowd wanted, and that's what they got... However in a twisted sense of irony they can actually get it hit way WAY worse than they could previously ever be due to the inability to surrender and bounty "teammates". Now here is were the logic of the whole thing fell apart. End result? PvP players Can't PvP and PvE players can still be "griefed", the players this change serve the best by far is the kind that backstab and then wants to avoid retaliation... Aka, Sharks, Studs and how goat describes Juan. I can't see how this makes people like me who enjoy PvP but not griefing happy. I can't intercept people and I have no interest in backstabbing for the most part as that's not actually PvP at all, it's simply killing. So this is certainly a terrible compromise for a player like me. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 8:09 pm Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 8:16 pm by FireFly

*JeeTeeOh* Loose Cannons Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,796 Joined: Oct 18, 2010 *Bastille* said: Fixed that for you. Har dee har har. RE: Firefly's last comment: He can opt to only scout with non-pvp gangs. Few, if any, others have to worry about this as they haven't earned a bullseye on their forehead. And the "stabbed in the back" bit is somewhat overstated. Juan had guns too. ......................... vet wv e2g marshal cont deathrceL1 sssc Posted Oct 5, 2012, 9:25 pm Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 9:28 pm by *JeeTeeOh*

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 4, 2010 "And the "stabbed in the back" bit is somewhat overstated" Yeah, from what I saw it was more "shot in the side". ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Oct 5, 2012, 9:41 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 FireFly said: *Tinker* said: FireFly said: LOGIC! You saying 5 people s are smart because they voted no? *hold breath* 1st of all I think Joel voted no because flags weren't abolished 2nd Maybe a lot of people voted because they felt the compromise was suitable, at least that was my excuse, and btw I totally thought this through, Even if I really wanted no flags grrr. 1. Allow people to supposedly 100% opt out of wilderness PvP. 2. Allow people to teamkill said players who opted out in wilderness PvP in wilderness PvE events, with even less safety (Bounty/surrender) to fall back on. It is not a good compromise at all, this is the problem, it was poor wording on my part to imply people are stupid for voting yes. What I meant was that if you look at it you'll see that it's pretty damn backwards. The first one is exactly what the NoN-PvP crowd wanted, and that's what they got... However in a twisted sense of irony they can actually get it hit way WAY worse than they could previously ever be due to the inability to surrender and bounty "teammates". Now here is were the logic of the whole thing fell apart. End result? PvP players Can't PvP and PvE players can still be "griefed", the players this change serve the best by far is the kind that backstab and then wants to avoid retaliation... Aka, Sharks, Studs and how goat describes Juan. I can't see how this makes people like me who enjoy PvP but not griefing happy. I can't intercept people and I have no interest in backstabbing for the most part as that's not actually PvP at all, it's simply killing. So this is certainly a terrible compromise for a player like me. Ok fine you want to nit pick, Yes your right it is rather odd to see it with a flag system now. Same team targeting was a perfect compliment to no flags, hence how it was in the Almighty beginnings, and now there are loose strings so to speak. Your also insisting that team targeting is mainly a PvP weapon, at least that's what it sounds like your saying. I see it mainly the other way around (a much vaster and richer realistic game option) , but it's great we can have different takes on the same game mechanic. But Yeah if you want to be a true Vulcan, then yeah your right, we should just remove the flags so it all fit's nicely for you/me everybody  ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Oct 5, 2012, 9:59 pm Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 10:02 pm by *Tinker*

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *JeeTeeOh* said: *Bastille* said: Fixed that for you. Har dee har har. RE: Firefly's last comment: He can opt to only scout with non-pvp gangs. Few, if any, others have to worry about this as they haven't earned a bullseye on their forehead. And the "stabbed in the back" bit is somewhat overstated. Juan had guns too. to be fair it has ALWAYS been possible to stab people in the back... in gladiator contests.. and you can even do it with an alt account so the other player has no warning at all! getting back to the point.. what i did was unethical.. but reasonable in game terms THE END ... goat rides into sunset on giant emu ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 10:11 pm Last edited Oct 5, 2012, 10:12 pm by goat starer

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 *Tinker* said: But Yeah if you want to be a true Vulcan, then yeah your right, we should just remove the flags so it all fit's nicely for you/me everybody  See, flags with no team targeting at all or no flags with full team targeting... Both make so much more sense than what we have now, So I'd be happy with either, I do like some form of consistency after all  ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 10:16 pm

Simple Zed Sand Goblins Pedestrian Slavers Faction Group: Awaiting Activation Posts: 24 Joined: Oct 26, 2011 *JeeTeeOh* said: RE: Firefly's last comment: He can opt to only scout with non-pvp gangs. Few, if any, others have to worry about this as they haven't earned a bullseye on their forehead. And the "stabbed in the back" bit is somewhat overstated. Juan had guns too. I don't see why you keep bringing the pvp flag up in this case.  Same Team Targeting does not get selectively enabled and disabled based on the flag settings of the targetted victim or the squad members.  It is always on. That being the case, JV, or anyone else for that matter, can scout only with non-pvp gangs, as you suggest, and it still won't matter. So maybe you're suggesting that same team targetting should be modified to disable itself when attempted against a "don't grief me please, I really, really mean it" flagged player?  Yeah, I could support that.  I think it would help restore group scout participation. ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 5, 2012, 10:20 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 And I think players not losing their **** in PMs would help decrease the potential for griefing. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 10:25 pm

BrassFactory Dukes of Hazardous Waste Autodueller Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 365 Joined: Jul 29, 2012 FireFly said: End result? PvP players Can't PvP and PvE players can still be "griefed", Sorry for being a dense noob, but I still don't get this first point.  How is it that PvP players can't PvP?  Can't you all get together and have Mayhem Mondays?  Most of the squads I do group scouts on are open PvP, so someone COULD attack them.  Is the problem that there are so few PvPers that they need to have non-PvPers forced to play with them?  Or is it something more subtle than that.  I'm missing something.  (Honest question...not trying to flame you) The second part I get.  Goat griefed Juan.  Groove griefed Kurtis.  Both had darn good reasons and I think Sam put in the team-targetting for exactly this sort of thing, but point taken. ......................... vet wv pvp4 pvp2 pvp1 Posted Oct 5, 2012, 10:27 pm

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