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Braindump Draft 1, my thoughts so far, please discuss
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*sam* said:
@Groovelle: yep, that's the sort of 'sexy' I had in mind (as you'll see from  the Tank Girl reference and image link in my original post). 2000AD sexy: cute but tough as hell, not cute and ridiculously scantily clad.


will she sleep with wallabies?
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Posted Jun 8, 2012, 9:31 am
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Longo said:
Sam -
My thoughts and questions -

It looks like KS or fail.

At some point ya gotta be driving a lorry with a ram, smashing into stuff!

There has to be a FT in the game at some point, whether driving one or fightin one!

Will this new game have an ending? Can you win? Or will there be only so much you can do in the storyline, and after you do this, you can still hang out and DR etc until something new is added to the game?


What about modding capabilities? That would be pretty cool. The DW vets can also chip in to open a mod repository.
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Posted Jun 8, 2012, 9:58 am
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Thanks for all the input :-)
I think this will probably require some kind of demo - I have been starting to work with viKKing on doing some maps in the Shiva game engine
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Posted Jun 8, 2012, 12:13 pm
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Several indie kickstarts have been successful without it, raising 50K plus. You also have the MMO client as a sample demo to a degree. so in absolute terms, you really dont need a demo.

However the more you can show, even if just a movie mock up of what it will look like helps and wets the appetite. Increasing the percentage of funders willing to participate. So i can see why you went that way.

You could also start shortly before the demo is ready. That would be a really nice boost and update for those on the fence. Having regular updates seems to help a lot, also surveys on content can help, but when thinking stretch goals just use the survey to give you a guideline of audience priority, but stick to making the low cost updates first and harder goals later. Keeps the early momentum going and helps maintain excitement.

EDIT: Also I like the idea of meaningful titles of the pledge levels. Like for 40 You get access to beta and title something like Dark Wind Core Team, and for $100 you get access to Alpha and the chance to influence design as your team implements the game, and of course the boss title of Darkwind Design Consultant! $1000 gets you executive producer credit, etc. Include custom forum badges for their pledge level, make the experience fun for fans and create incentives for fans to complete amongst themselves for bragging rights.

I already telling people about this, describing it as Mad Max meets Car Wars on steroids! That certainly hit a spot with my friends, at least :)
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vet

Posted Jun 8, 2012, 9:20 pm Last edited Jun 8, 2012, 9:56 pm by Ender Card
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I have no one to spread the word to, other than on the GOG forums. All my RL friends are new-gen gamers :(

edit: Come on Karz, you should know better than that - Wolfsbane
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Posted Jun 9, 2012, 6:06 am Last edited Jun 9, 2012, 7:53 am by *Wolfsbane*
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I guess I don't get it. I'm sure a rebuild on a new platform would be just super, but I am a bit confused. Is the new version going to be a hobby or something you want to make money on? That is the most important question, IMHO. Will this game cater to a vocal minority in an icy forum, or will it be a endeavor geared toward profit? I believe a good build will have to answer that question first. I have already pledged my financial support with my subscription, and would be willing to purchase a version of the game. But pledging? Is this PBS?

There has been a great deal of work done on this game to make it awesome, and I appreciate and salute this. I can't wait to see what sam churns out next.

I do not mean to be untactful, but this version should have turned enough profit to build the next version. Perhaps the next build will not allow so many gamers to be chased away by an intolerant few, who threaten to take their ball and go home if the developer doesn't cater to them. Or perhaps lessons could be learned in less arbitrary rules that reduce the strategic options. I guess I'm saying: what is best for growing the player base is best for profits and the game. I think decisions about game rules should be looked at through the prism of a profit motive.

Ok, now send the flechettes.

-Jake

Just meant as food for thought, not to upset anyone.
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Posted Jun 26, 2012, 7:19 pm
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I don't think Sam makes much money off Darkwind. Supposing there are 50 concurrent subscriptions (which is a mighty generous number) every month, with an average of, say, 4-5 euros per person, that's around 200-250euros a month. If I'm not mistaken, that's roughly the rental price for a good dedicated server every month.
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Posted Jun 27, 2012, 4:41 pm Last edited Jun 27, 2012, 4:42 pm by Karz Master
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Is this still going?
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Posted Jul 3, 2012, 9:34 pm
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It better. :p
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Posted Jul 4, 2012, 4:49 pm
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I know its going to take some time for Sam to get that demo together...but I'm curious how progress is going as well. I've been pimping this one on boardgamegeek. A few individuals sent me mails when it might happen.
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*Posted Jul 14, 2012, 4:08 pm
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"cute but tough as hell, not cute and ridiculously scantily clad. "

If she was a nun from Cestus Dei, she could be BOTH....

So, now that that's settled.... ;)
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Posted Aug 15, 2012, 8:06 pm
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So any update? Still moving ahead. I keep checking kickstart to see, if this one pops up, and I get side tracked by obsidian. Updates please, my wallet can't keep this up! :)
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Posted Sep 20, 2012, 9:54 pm
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I think getting the word out is the best thing you can do. Both for this version and for any potential sequel. Think of it this way: If you do a Kickstarter, even if it fails, you will definitely get more publicity and will most certainly attract more new players to the current game.

The two primary gaming news websites that I follow are www.pcgamer.com and www.evilavatar.com. I think the MOST IMPORTANT step is to make sure the word gets out to as many places as possible. Certainly there are fan publications/websites for table-top games?

Be sure in any description you post of the game, you drop the "physics" buzzword. I would never have found this game on Greenlight without that in the description (since I was too sure I wouldn't find anything with "car wars" or "autoduel" in the title, for some reason).
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Posted Sep 24, 2012, 5:26 pm
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I also think having a working demo is optional. Really this is the demo, the next iteration is going to be what the funding pays for, as a single player game. Having a few screenshots of what it WILL look like is good, but having a playable demo isnt required, because this is the demo!

I will say, be realistic in your estimates in cost and time. That is important in keeping the faith with your backers for future products.

Tackling it this way, will boost this player base, while getting funding the new game. Obviously one of the stretch goals will be to have the MMO portion also be connected to the new engine. Get a half million and dangle that in front of fans, I think that will cause a burst in interest. Especially if you sell up the increased interface usability and tuturials to ease players into the depth of Dark wind world.

Also scale some of the depth. have portions be automated, so players can pic and choose the depth they want to engage in
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vet

Posted Sep 24, 2012, 6:50 pm Last edited Sep 24, 2012, 6:55 pm by Ender Card
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It's time for a complete re-do.

Firstly: lose the radiated planet thing. Make it an NBC ending to the world...with "forbidden zones," and a thriving new populace, with real cities of medium pre-apocalypse size that can support a Car Wars style set of leagues, so that a player could spend his entire game life within the televised world of death races, amateur nights and racing...garner sponsorships (NPC and player!) and never have to see a sand dune. The online PvP possibilities are through the roof! 10K to Unlimited!

Car Wars was all about arena events! Interactive arenas with sliding walls, raising random surfaces...turrets!!

The vehicles need to be of a size that you can see the gangers within and they must be modeled with animations; steering, gritting teeth while firing, etc.

A 'drop-in' option, so as the turn starts, you can get a FP view, with switchable sight options so you could look left, right, rearward towards a threat, etc...see the weapons firing and watch the strikes against the enemy.

Then a player could zoom out to get an oversight of the fight, input actions, etc.

This option would also make being a ped a riot. What fun running around an arena after your vehicle gets shot to pieces!

A random map generator. A screen for laying out the parameters. Size of hills, if any; water, roads and type of surface...basic types-desert, verdant, combination, etc. The replay factor goes through the roof...there's none of what DW has now... "Oh hell...Acid Lands!"

Fortifications. Player-built camps. Seperate "scouting" and "camp" crews that would man static weapons, allow for "mad max" style encounters and combination camp-defense/vehicle combat.

Random "ruins" of all types and "loot" levels. Nothing more exciting than driving along and the ground collapses and you fall into an underground military facility...or a shopping mall!

Real town defenses so you can attack them if you want to and play the bad guy! Town "memory" so you can't shoot them up one day and expect to drive in the next and trade/resupply in your custom-skinned Apaches.

Town militias that actually patrol. Town populations that actually farm outside the walls...gather water...require guarding....

Dynamic town matches/races/death races with interactive gambling/participation.
Definitely don't go without a demo...start it with a newbie ganger entering his first death match...winning, moving up the ladder, getting his first sponsor...looking to defeating "Frankenstein," or some such nasty uber-killer...then switch to the interior view of an Apache launching over a dune and landing, guns blazing at an enemy in the wastes...seeing your .50 rounds rip into the armored side of a Lorry...just as a Buzzer tops a rise above you, the maws of a pair of CC's pointed in your direction as the escort arrives to save the day! Doom on you!

The demo will make the game irresistible. I mean, look at what "WarZ," inarguable the WORST game ever made and what they accomplished with in-game demos...they made MILLIONS with a completely unplayable gank-fest of a nightmare game.

...consider the possibilities.
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Posted Feb 11, 2013, 5:31 pm
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Fealty Lost said:
The vehicles need to be of a size that you can see the gangers within and they must be modeled with animations; steering, gritting teeth while firing, etc.


They did this with XCOM to great effect.  In the new title, the game sometimes zooms in on a character, giving you a dramatic camera angle on what he's doing, before resuming the usual isometric view.  It adds immediacy and excitement to the somewhat cerebral turn-based gamestyle.

For starters, anytime a car's wheels leave the ground, animate that from a worm's eye view.  Show vehicular explosion replays from a high, circling angle before zooming in on the tangled wreck.  When a car strikes an obstacle or other car at 30+ mph, zoom in for the replay. 

Just make sure the player can hit a key to skip it.  We get impatient waiting for ballistic weapon animations.
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Posted Feb 11, 2013, 7:30 pm
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Groovelle...as soon as I figure it out, I'll post up the sexiest picture of a female combatant in the world...

...think...black jeans...serious ass...with an M4 slung across it. Real world girl.

Oh ya...no "farmable" maps or increased chances of certain vehicles showing up in certain places. Totally random enemy spawning.
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Posted Feb 15, 2013, 12:04 pm
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I'd love to make some decent suggestions but you have an extremely dedicated and seasoned community here who know precisely what they're talking about.

I would just like to add this, and I appreciate it may not be news to you.

Dark Wind is completely unique. Car combat games are all too often console-tarded affairs that require no more attention or dedication than picking your nose. My first love of car combat was revealed through Interstate 76, a game with a rich and unique backstory and that allowed the player a hand in the design of their car - and looting :) But there has never been a car combat game that combines gang management, RPG elements, economics and persistence. All good things, I hasten to add.

Darkwind has all of this, and more. There are no games like it. It absolutely must exist. Perhaps 'proper' developers are afraid of something that requires so much care and attention, but for one reason or another, none have seen fit to formalise what is a worthwhile and excellent gaming experience. Cars and guns - its such an obvious recipe, yet they have all failed except Darkwind.

On that note about development, I'm kind of glad. I'm not sure I'd trust anyone to get the job done but someone who has not only created, but actively nurtured this lovechild. With a 'proper' company I'd be too paranoid about them scrapping ideas or selling out to imbeciles to expand their player base. If I were a rich man I'd bankroll the whole operation. But I'm not, so the most you'll get from me is about thirty quid - as much as I'd have paid for a damn good game back when you could buy them off the shelf with confidence.



The only thing I have ever wanted from Darkwind was a single player variant. A sandbox, if you will. Maybe, dare I say it, a save feature. I appreciate that flies in the face of what many would call the spirit of the game, but not everyone in the world wants to do things the hard way.

If you do consider a single player function of the sequel, I would ask that you examine Pirate games (hear me out). Games like Sid Meier's Pirates!, Port Royale, and so on combine RPG and crew/ship management with exploration and persistent worlds that change as various factions vie for control of the map locations. Not unfamiliar concepts. But they also have a single player thread that involves, say, a search for relatives or revenge or something like that. It can be picked up or ignored as the player desires. If someone wants to doss about looting and blowing things up, they can. If they want to follow the story and 'complete' the game, they can do that too. But completing the story doesn't necessarily end the game.

As you are already looking at more random events, roleplaying events, and things like that, I don't think it would be too great a step to add that thread for a single player function.


I would also like to second the suggestion that you at least discuss this with Steve Jackson. If he's going to cramp your style, he will do so anyway just as soon as he cottons onto the sequel, so talking to him will only clear the air and I would not be too backwards about reminding him that 'big' developers have never taken on a project like this - you meanwhile are holding all of the relevent experience. This game is your resume, Sam. You deserve to be recognised for keeping his original idea alive in a medium that is accessible and painless (except when your best gangers burn to death in a horriffic ambush).

My worry about the 'official' CW game is that it will cow-tow to groovy buzzwords that blow chunks out of its enjoyability, in the vain hope of securing a bigger player base. Darkwind has never been for everyone, but the number of people who I know are into car combat games but have never heard of it is astonishing. A lot of 'new generation' gamers will be put off by phrases like 'turn based' and 'economics'. Let them be. They can go and pay through the nose to play a game that thinks they're as stupid as they really are. The new breed are not all retards - the rise of indie development has seen a lot of new ideas and open minds coming to the fore. Many are ####. But if nothing else, that wave of proposals is crowbarring public opinion open to all sorts of things.



Above me someone suggested arbitrary angles for "cool shizz" in-game, a la XCOM Enemy Unknown. If your camera is free roaming as it currently is, don't bother with this feature - its annoying, and obsolete, and if you do include it, have an option to turn it off. If players want to have flashy angles, they can make their own with a free roaming camera. It might not be anyone's first impulse, but to me that's part and parcel of the 'player driven' game play. Your tech demo could make use of the free roaming camera to show how good the game can look if people bother to use it.

I also think Darkwind was onto something before a lot of big-wigs were, in player-designed content. And this without the Steam Workshop, no less! Player designed skins and decals are just a good idea, and the more things like that you can throw in for the community, the more it will grow.

If Kickstarter is a problem, Desura is a bit like Steam but seems to have cornered some of the more obscure gaming proposals. Games do not need to be completed to be listed there and you might benefit from it - there's also Steam Greenlight to consider if you wanted to test your pitch?


Sorry, much of that probably didn't need to be said. I'm no games developer but I've been a gamer my entire life. I have very specific wants and desires and I know what there is too much of. Darkwind 2 doesn't have to TRY to be cool just to get some sales. It just has to be. If you engineer the accessibility, the community, and the potential for growth, everything else will take care of itself.

You should also answer the question asked earlier, about whether this is still a hobby, or an enterprise. I don't think you need to pick one or the other, but veering too far to the hobby side will isolate the game as DW in its current state is, and veering too far to the enterprise side could mean compromises and loss of identity.

In my humble opinion, if there's one thing DW has going for it at the moment, its a truly unique identity. No CW MMO is going to threaten that. The Car Wars game will be competing with things like World of Tanks. Are such adversaries worthy of Darkwind?
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vet wv

Posted Feb 3, 2014, 4:54 pm Last edited Feb 3, 2014, 4:56 pm by PsychoDellick
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Thanks for the thoughts :-)

Regarding DW2: things are happening :-)
Not exactly along the lines of what we were discussing here, though.

I do appreciate your comments about DW's uniqueness in terms of turn-based vehicular combat. I very much think this myself, and it's the core experience that I want to build DW2 around.
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Posted Feb 3, 2014, 7:52 pm
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One of the main things that turn me on most about a game is the amount of customization I can do with my toons and their related gear. That being said there has only ever been another computer game out there that has captured my attention to the level that DW has... and that game is APB:Reloaded. Other than that it has always been table-tops. Games like Warhammer, Necromunda, Warmachine, where my artistic side can run wild.

I would very much like to see DW2 retain and possibly exceed it's current level of customization. In fact my thought was somehow implementing a neck-up profile pic of the 3d model used for a custom skin. That way you can better identify them at a glance... same goes for the vehicles. Not sure if this is possible but it would greatly enhance the game for those of us that are graphically minded. I'd also like to see more "models" or perhaps a way to "add-to" those models with different hair styles, gear, weapons, and what-not. Jagged Alliance did something similiar to this with their re-do. When you changed something on the toon, it registered on the "head" display.

For me personally, I like knowing that my gangers are individuals that aren't long-term numbers crunchers but part of a bigger story. A plot behind a plot if you will.

I think that initially starting with one toon during the "get-to-know-you" single player phase and being able to customize both their looks and their stats would be epic. Then as time progresses that toon you started out with becomes the de-facto gang leader... perhaps by earning some sort of leadership trait during the initial single player phase. Now granted they could potentially die, or you could recruit someone better... or perhaps they could start a family, raise little mechanics and drivers etc etc.. Still retaining and gaining/losing stats & abilities through the "pairing".
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Posted Oct 3, 2014, 6:42 pm Last edited Oct 3, 2014, 7:20 pm by Skoaly
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