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Advance Warning of Rule Tweaks

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 I think there needs to be an income reduction. Some players acquire money too quickly. That has been implemented as gate fees and increased lockup. Both things needed to happen, and make sense, but they are indiscriminate and I think will hurt the casual player disproportionately. I predict gate fees will be lowered in the future once it has been experienced for a while, and that's okay. If you need to increase payout of missions to compensate for increase gate fee, you've solved nothing. I still feel there needs to be a diminishing return on loot. This will target top tier money acquisition and not hurt new and casual players. I don't think it would hurt hardcore players either- they'll still be making more money, just not dramatically more than others. Why not give us another option regarding loot cars? Instead of either selling to the shop and breaking down in camp, how about we have an option to supply the Somerset Deathsport Leagues? Cars they need for track owned events would be very welcome I would think. I propose a 'turn in' or 'deposit' system where you supply cars to the tracks, in exchange for weapons or chassis. This would take money out of the economy, and maybe give long time players a way to acquire chassis they will never otherwise see. Turn in 50 Landrunners- which the arena goes through like candy- and you could earn a Squad Car or McFly. Some might say that sounds like grinding, but we're already fighting the cars anyway! Its not like we have a choice in what we hunt either- its not grinding like in WoW or CoH where you go the the same spot over and over and over to collect spider silk for hours on end. A third option for loot will make us think twice- do I kill that Black Rock or try to save it... once I have it, do I donate it to the arena or break it down for EP? How about this machine gun... hmm looks like the arena is offering a paint gun for 15 of them! My biggest frustration, and one I think Lord Foul mentioned in another post- is that after two years of play and 1000's of events a hardcore player will still never encounter certain weapons and chassis. That just doesn't feel right to me. A ' car deposit' would take money out- set it up so the value of the deposit is higher than what you would buy the reward item (item otherwise unavailable) for and you have a great money sink. ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:38 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Dr Mathias said: I propose a 'turn in' or 'deposit' system where you supply cars to the tracks, in exchange for weapons or chassis. A third option for loot will make us think twice- do I kill that Black Rock or try to save it... once I have it, do I donate it to the arena or break it down for EP? How about this machine gun... hmm looks like the arena is offering a paint gun for 15 of them! I really like this... Spanky suggested something some time back about "bountied heads" adding up to something, but I think this is better as it addresses the "inflation" as well as the RP aspect. For those that don't want that choice, they are not forced to make it, but it opens up for other game choices... ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:04 pm

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 Dundar said: *jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Right but it doesn't make sense profit wise. I gave the example of my 45 bulk transport and 65% of the time you were losing money. People will just stop doing these runs if the payments don't reflect the higher costs. Your options are as follows, Dundar: If you are running these missions purely to make money you're going to have to use a vehicle which can transport more goods at a time. This obviously will increase your trade run efficiency but possibly make it a bit harder. If you are running around Evan trying to raise scouting or driving skill, then you should be happy to have any money coming in at all. Sure, you may be doing small-time trade runs at a loss, but you would lose more if you choose not to do them at all. And before you retort by saying that the economy would adjust and those who give the missions would start paying more, don't you think they'd just look at you and say, "No we won't raise our price. If you would rather pay a $1200 gate fee than pay a $1200 gate fee and get a $1000 payment for running these supplies for us, we'll find someone who feels differently." While the gate fees may negate any profits that you were making on some of these runs, they do lessen the pain when they hit. ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:31 pm

Crazy AL Street Pizza Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: Feb 14, 2008 *jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Damn right! I however think its silly to be paid for it and then give some of the money right back just to bring in goods they hired me to bring in the first place. ......................... vet wv zom pvp1 ped1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:23 pm

*Lugal* Luna Sea Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 2,246 Joined: Jan 27, 2008 Dr Mathias said: Why not give us another option regarding loot cars? Instead of either selling to the shop and breaking down in camp, how about we have an option to supply the Somerset Deathsport Leagues? Cars they need for track owned events would be very welcome I would think. I propose a 'turn in' or 'deposit' system where you supply cars to the tracks, in exchange for weapons or chassis. This would take money out of the economy, and maybe give long time players a way to acquire chassis they will never otherwise see. Turn in 50 Landrunners- which the arena goes through like candy- and you could earn a Squad Car or McFly. Mechanically not much different than the collect n of x to get y arrangement, but a) the inclusion of the town/arena system as the rational keeps it in line with the setting and just makes sense, b) offers an alternate method of acquiring uncommon gear (in addition to looting, NPC market/hero points, and player market), and c) is entirely optional - it's not a mechanism required for advancement. With proper balancing on cost v reward, this could be a money sink that people actually enjoy, too! Combine this with the recent proposal about turning in loot for other benefits (aesthetics, tweaks, minor bonuses), and I think we're really onto something. ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:25 pm

Crazy AL Street Pizza Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: Feb 14, 2008 Dundar said: OKay... went back and read the WHOLE thread. Whew... Here is what I saw that I really like. BTW, don't know how busy you are or what time you have available for reading but if you are interested in sound classical free market theories and principles to add to your game I suggest you read any book by the late Milton Freedman. Good post and the unlimited supply of cars is part of the problem, however its a game mechanic that really can't change. Imagine going out to scout and not encountering any opposition only to come back with a loss of fuel. Not my idea of fun. How many people are still around in Evan after "The Event"? Realistically there are only so many pirates and if you figure player gangs are around 40-60 people then NPC gangs should be the same. Me and Jimmy among others KILLED probably 20+ gangers of the Elmsfield Olympians with my RP bounty that I put out. Why is that gang even still around after the losses they took? Because as realistic as we would like it to be, you need to provide an unlimited supply of guys for the other guys to go against. I for one think the Olympians would have disbanded knowing numerous gangs were gunning for them and they shouldn't even exist as a gang any more. Not to say the might reform after a time, but that's me. Concerning Doc's idea of a way to provide some of the rarer things in the game through something other than finding it in the wastes or purchasing it with millions, I think that's a great idea and certainly something to do with the recovered loot. It would take it out of the system and provide players something they want anyway without any real money transfer. ......................... vet wv zom pvp1 ped1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:33 pm

BWGunner DriveByRomance Autodueller Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 413 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 I'm totally with Lugal on this. Take the raw materials (fix it yer danged self) approach and the arena supply approach, put them together and I'm going to be running very lean...and very happy. I also expect to see some lasers and such on the market then...which would be awesome. 15 machine guns for one paint gun!? Sign me up!!! Heck, I'd buy muscle cars off the market to bundle and turn in for a shot at an uber-rare chassis! That's getting rid of bloat AND money. I think even the wealthiest vets would love to trade in gear to get a cool prize, even if only to put it on the market to resell. I personally don't see the harm here as I can save carcasses for a few months to get my prize if I want. Man...that sounds like a GREAT way to bring and keep new players! Honestly, I've always thought Hero points were silly and only worked for hard-core gamers. ......................... vet wv cont Posted Sep 3, 2009, 10:11 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 10:42 pm by BWGunner

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 BWGunner said: Heck, I'd buy muscle cars off the market to bundle and turn in for a shot at an uber-rare chassis! That's getting rid of bloat AND money. I think even the wealthiest vets would love to trade in gear to get a cool prize, even if only to put it on the market to resell. There's a few potential hiccups- for example if there was a machine gun trade in, the shop might not ever have machine guns for players to buy because they'd get bought up. On the flip side, when you salvage an mg, it could have some real value, and we'd be happy to loot it! We might think twice about killing the engine of a car the Somerset Deathsport Authority needs for the upcoming leagues. Plus the fluff talks about people making a living by bringing back hardware to supply the deathrace fix that the populace has. Glow or COCO could list an mg for 25K and 24999K respectively, heh heh! Hard to say if reselling would be a problem or not. It just bugs me that in the end game you can't work toward getting some goodies, you just work on acquiring more and more and more money until someone decides to sell their '57. And then they don't sell and say they'd rather trade for another rare you'll never get BWGunner said: Honestly, I've always thought Hero points were silly and only worked for hard-core gamers. Same here. I think hero points has led to a lot of bitterness and rare proliferation. Being practically forced to kill npc gangers has led to the reason they don't skill up. I know the npc training has been tweaked to address that, but still... In the old days we kind of got to know the more skilled npc gangers, you recognized their names 'cause you saw them repeatedly. Now they die like lemmings. I don't even look anymore. ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:46 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 11:58 pm by Dr Mathias

BWGunner DriveByRomance Autodueller Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 413 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Right on, Dr. M! I swear, sometimes reading your posts is like talking to myself. So I've decided to let some others do the talking. "Hey, Car Salesman, how much for that McLaren?" Maggie barks. "What, this? Well they only come on the market every 3 years or so, they're pretty rare, and the name's Mezcal" "No kidding, dill-hole, how much?" "Not for sale, only trade." he smiles slowly at this, sensing a deal. "What's that?" "I'll take an Ambulance, a Firetruck and a Police Cruiser for it, plus one laser. They have to be all mint, mind you." "Ouch. Well, how much for that Ambulance you got in back? The damaged one?" "5 Ospreys." "You have 5 Ospreys over there..." "Yep and you can have them for 25 Sunrises and 5 Heavy Machine guns...5 Sunrises and a gun a piece, you see." Longo walks into the room. "Ah, you're here for your McLaren?" the salesman asks. Longo drops five sets of keys on the counter. "The Ambulance." "Ahhh, yes." The Salesman says, "but now you will have to find the rest." Maggie turns to look out the window just as the sirens start. "I believe you'll get that McLaren, Longo. I wonder if it will ever leave Gateway..." OR "Gimme a break here, you're rejecting it cause of rounded nuts?" Gene implored. "Look." "Gene." The Ferrario brothers replied "That's the deal." "One of each motor in Evan." "All perfect." "And we'll sell you this mounted mortar." They smiled. "Forget you two," Gene swore. "I'll go sell these in Somerset and wait for it to hit the market." "Nope." "Can't." The brothers chirped. "You can't put them on any market but here." "And we own this market." "So you can only get them thru us." "Or sell it on this market at a price we set." "Sars is the home of the ballistic weapon, Gene." "We aren't called the FLYING Ferrario Brothers for nothing." Gene sat down, his head spinning from looking between them. "So I have to drag this out to Joel, do I?" "He does have the only mechanic in Evan." "Who can put a Rotary to 100%." They laughed. Gene talked about it on the drive towards Longoland (the town formerly known as Badlands), "I wonder what that maniac Joel is going to want this time. Last time it was a Firetruck..." From the gunner's seat Poor Old Dead Betty Paige replied, "The one Longo promptly stole at the gates?" "Yup." "Right after he stole our Cruiser?" "That's the guy." ......................... vet wv cont Posted Sep 4, 2009, 1:02 am Last edited Sep 4, 2009, 1:46 am by BWGunner

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Dr Mathias said: In the old days we kind of got to know the more skilled npc gangers, you recognized their names 'cause you saw them repeatedly. Now they die like lemmings. I don't even look anymore. I do Doc, just about every scout. Once and a while those BH gangs have a 120 lg gunner...I wanna know who he is  ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Sep 4, 2009, 1:03 am

BWGunner DriveByRomance Autodueller Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 413 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Or how about an article in the Gazette that reads: THIS YEAR ONLY! Click the Windmill on the Somerset map and you'll qualify for the KING of the ROAD! This 5L V8 Big Pick Up comes pre-loaded with an Anti-Tank Gun, a Ram Plate, and two medium machine guns! With room for 3 and a custom paint job, this King is a real LION about to ROAR! and in small print Requires trade-in of full Safari-skinned pick up truck line. Collect all 5! ......................... vet wv cont Posted Sep 4, 2009, 1:13 am Last edited Sep 4, 2009, 1:39 am by BWGunner

Lord Foul .-^-HellRazors-^. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Rules Council Posts: 3,543 Joined: Jan 12, 2008 Holy wages batman, I'm now paying more each week for a bunch of my characters than for individual cars. 30k a week just to keep them happy and pay for their drug abuses. lol And now those greedy towns want toll money..grrrr ......................... vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball55,206,126 Posted Sep 4, 2009, 7:51 am Last edited Sep 4, 2009, 7:55 am by Lord Foul

Dundar Nexus9 Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: Jun 13, 2009 The Paranoid Tourist said: Dundar said: *jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Right but it doesn't make sense profit wise. I gave the example of my 45 bulk transport and 65% of the time you were losing money. People will just stop doing these runs if the payments don't reflect the higher costs. Your options are as follows, Dundar: If you are running these missions purely to make money you're going to have to use a vehicle which can transport more goods at a time. This obviously will increase your trade run efficiency but possibly make it a bit harder. If you are running around Evan trying to raise scouting or driving skill, then you should be happy to have any money coming in at all. Sure, you may be doing small-time trade runs at a loss, but you would lose more if you choose not to do them at all. And before you retort by saying that the economy would adjust and those who give the missions would start paying more, don't you think they'd just look at you and say, "No we won't raise our price. If you would rather pay a $1200 gate fee than pay a $1200 gate fee and get a $1000 payment for running these supplies for us, we'll find someone who feels differently." While the gate fees may negate any profits that you were making on some of these runs, they do lessen the pain when they hit. Again this doesn't make sense. The mission to carry bulk  items that you would make no profit on would just dissapear. It like you telling FedEx hey, I want you to deliever this package but do it at a loss. If I am running scouting runs and delievering goods and i can make a profit running to Elms and SS but not to GW I will just stop running to GW. That is what would happen and all the shipment that are offered at a loss would dissapear. Its the simple profit motive. If there is no profit there is no motive. Would you go to work tomorrow if you were told you had to pay your emplyer to work for them? I think the answer is obvious. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:28 am

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 Dundar said: Again this doesn't make sense. The mission to carry bulk  items that you would make no profit on would just dissapear. It like you telling FedEx hey, I want you to deliever this package but do it at a loss. I'm not sure you really know how it works in the world of parcels. They do run deliveries at loss, because they are tied with large scale contracts. I would mind getting unprofitable misisons to be removed, this is part of trading to be able to turn such missions into profits.  I don't mean there should only be unprofitable missions! ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:49 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 RE unprofitability: change is highly likely anyway, guys.. whether it's a CR-based gates fee or movement to some other mechanism such as a more direct taxing on loot, I know this needs re-tweaking. But better to wait a while so we know how things look.. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:53 am

*JD_Basher* Gearjammers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Storytellers Posts: 2,728 Joined: Feb 11, 2007 Dundar, this game cannot be equated to ANY realistic economic model no matter how many REAL delivery businesses you might like to use as an objective view of your experiences in DarkWind. Keep in mind that the economic model used in DW is one that uses the PLAYERS as a mode of moving trade and goods as the MAIN dynamic force when calculating the goods/courier packages/ moved between towns. The AI element of TRADERS is, to a certain extent, used in the economic calculations. BUT it is NOT the MAIN element when the trade values are generated between the towns.... The Majority of that value is based on goods transported between towns and the distance traveled BY PLAYERS! ......................... vet marshal wv cont Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:55 am Last edited Sep 4, 2009, 9:57 am by *JD_Basher*

Swift Dead Men Driving Pedestrian Renegade Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: May 26, 2009 Dundar said: POSTSCRIPT: Also, exactly again what is the purpose of this gate fee? isn't the idea, money wise, in this game for your gang to get rich? I mean, really what is the problem then? I have been playing pretty regularly, and without getting to heavy into the trading market I can clear 150,000 a week. More if I play more, obviously. What i am saying is that what is so bad about all the "rich" people in the game. This isn't some zero sum economy in that if one person plays more and makes more money they are taking money away from someone else. As people play more, make more, and sell more, we all get richer. RL Economics 101: By itself, money is worthless. Its only worth is in its perceived value, given by participants of trade. Nowadays, we have paper money which basically is given value by governments which print it and recognize it as their own. Printing too much money leads to inflation: there should be enough to cover all trade operations but not too much, because too much leaves money devalued. You print 1000 times as much money and your basic currency unit (1$ or whatever) is worth 1000 times less. Therefore, being rich is not about having the big number, is about having big % of money available. Game Economics 101: For gameplay purposes, the game prints money. Every time it pays for an event win or a mission or a looted car in shops it creates money out of thin air. It's necessary, for the game's flow and so players would feel progress, but it creates inflation out of thin air, which leads to basic game currency unit devalued and therefore being less and less important as time goes. That's a good thing, right? Money becomes less important, you get a feeling you won (or at least are winning) the game. Not so fast. Too much money in game economy, and its worth plummets. Fees and other money sinks lose their meaning; you can pay all of them. There are no gameplay choices anymore. You pay for anything, and therefore there's no point in having (such small) fees at all. What's more important, player market also gets affected. The more money there's out there, the more money players ask for rares and other things that are not produced at the same speed as money does by the game. Since money making possibilities remain constant for starting players, it means the older the game, the less possible it is for new players to buy anything significant. In conclusion: If tomorrow you lose half your money, you'd be half as rich. If tomorrow EVERYONE loses half their money, you'd be as rich as today, but you'd feel half as rich (human psychology). In a game with player's market, it can't be that everybody is rich. If everyone is rich, noone is rich. And outside of player's market, if everybody is rich, there's no point in having game concept of money. Just give services for free. ---- That said, you (not Dundar, abstract "you") can still make mail missions not only more useful to new players, but also more reallife-like. It never made much sense to me that mail is generated by bulk on demand. It should be generated by the game in the same menu as "taxi missions", preferably daily. Give mail packages low bulk, comfortable mission pay (fuel + gate fee + extra) - viola, useful tool for starting players, but nothing money-making on grand scale. And, of course, in starting towns (SS, Elms, maybe GW) it should be generated daily per player, so there would be always available some mission for any player to do. ......................... vet e2g deathrce1 ww Posted Sep 4, 2009, 12:33 pm Last edited Sep 4, 2009, 1:46 pm by Swift

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 Swift said: RL Economics 101: By itself, money is worthless. Its only worth is in its perceived value, given by participants of trade. Nowadays, we have paper money which basically is given value by governments which print it and recognize it as their own. Printing too much money leads to inflation: there should be enough to cover all trade operations but not too much, because too much leaves money devalued. You print 1000 times as much money and your basic currency unit (1$ or whatever) is worth 1000 times less. Therefore, being rich is not about having the big number, is about having big % of money available. Game Economics 101: For gameplay purposes, the game prints money. Every time it pays for an event win or a mission or a looted car in shops it creates money out of thin air. It's necessary for the game to flow and players to feel progress, but it creates inflation out of thin air, which leads to basic game currency unit devalued and therefore being less and less important as time goes. That's a good thing, right? Money becomes less important, you get a feeling you won (or at least are winning) the game. Not so fast. Too much money in game economy, and its worth plummets. Fees and other money sinks lose their meaning; you can pay all of them. There are no gameplay choices anymore. You pay for anything, and therefore there's no point in having (such small) fees at all. What's more important, player market also gets affected. The more money players have, the more money they ask for rares and other things that are not produced at the same speed as money does by the game. Since money making possibilities remain constant for starting players, it means the older the game, the less possible it is for new players to buy anything significant. In conclusion: If tomorrow you lose half your money, you'd be half as rich. If tomorrow EVERYONE loses half their money, you'd be as rich as today, but you'd feel half as rich (human psychology). In a game with player's market, it can't be that everybody is rich. If everyone is rich, noone is rich. And outside of player's market, if everybody is rich, there's no point in having game concept of money. Just give services for free. Great reading! ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Sep 4, 2009, 12:57 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: Great reading! Agreed! ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 4, 2009, 12:58 pm

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 Regarding payment and courier missions- would it be possible to have the negotiator spec play a role in the process? This could offset loss on small missions. For example, if you have a 110 scout (lvl 2 Negotiator) in the vehicle doing the delivery, perhaps you could get a 10% increase on payout. I would do it on payout on delivery, due to a potential exploit- players could use a high scout to get a good rate, then switch them out for a low scout after the cargo is loaded. Maybe not entirely realistic but it would avoid the exploit. I always thought 'negotiator' should fall under leadership rather than (or in addition to) scouting. Scout specs should be travel time reduction, ambush avoidence etc. With all this talk of economics I wonder if some specs could be introduced that deal with haggling over prices. ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Sep 4, 2009, 3:54 pm

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