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Advance Warning of Rule Tweaks

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Marc said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Sadly that is not the case, the issue arises from the much higher price paid for EPs being bought by players and not the town. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 8:08 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Crazy AL said: A small newb gang's requirements should be very manageable. All they will need at first is food and water of which I think they should get a starting stock of each that should hold them for a RL month as long as they don't recruit a whole bunch of gangers immediately. They won't have any cars needing repairs using rentals all the time so the starting cash they get should hold them easily. Here's another reason to encourage them to scout with other people FIRST. Some of the loot they might get will be CPs or scrap or EPs all that can go towards getting their buildings started and maintained. And those first loot cars should be broken down for parts instead of repaired in my opinion anyway. Takes more vehicles out of the market and adds to the money sink in the form of sinking assets instead of cash. I'm going to go back and respond to this, since the topic is still going. I could probably feed all PC Gangs each month with just one Lorry load(of course it would be a chore to get it all over Evan).  Even inactive ones. A lot of camp owners can make food and water, undercutting each other, etc.  Yes it could be "affordable" for players, but it would be a TIME SINK on top of a money sink.  I frankly wouldn't bother checking market prices and people are not going to pay enough for the Time, I know that right now, in all honesty.  Trust me I know about this stuff, I have barely commented on your other GOOD ideas, I don't know a heck of a lot about how a lot of these ideas would pan out.  I am not hauling food all over the place and making sure I am selling for lessthancaps or some bull####.  It's not worth my time.  It might be worth some min maxers time, but only if they make enough money.  Plus all the buyers have got to waste time trying to get a good deal and not get screwed by buying up hoarders who probably won't even make any food/water/whatever. Evan Wheat Pool or no go (pumpkin pool actually lol).  Seller's price protection and buyers price protection.  Yes it's just my opinion.  I don't know if Sam can code it so that gangs get their "share"(paid for of course) before the extra food/water is dumped on the market.  That would be cool.  Also if there is going to be a shortage...to offer a special bells and whistles WHOOP WHOOOP ALERT onthe town page that it needs food badly and the price is shot way up until the shortage/undersupply is filled.  That let's the hoarders have a little fun too.  Al least no one will really suffer for not paying attention.  Unless they run out of money, like how it is now. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 8:30 am Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 8:35 am by Joel Autobaun

Solf Aspire Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: May 25, 2009 Joel Autobaun said: Evan Wheat Pool or no go (pumpkin pool actually lol).  Seller's price protection and buyers price protection.  ... Unless they run out of money, like how it is now. I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe there are people who are tired of tactical game and want to play econ sim. Maybe there are people who *want* econ sim, not the tactical game. But doing a 180 and turning mainly tactical shooter into serious econ sim is doing a great disservice to the people who enjoy current state of things. Let's not bundle two entirely different games together and make them both non-optional (or worse yet tactical shooter part being more optional than econ sim). EDIT: As I understand Shanty is econ sim for those who want it -- I have no problem with that -- just please don't take away the playground of those who want nothing to do with goods hauling to survive. ......................... vet Posted Sep 3, 2009, 9:35 am Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 9:38 am by Solf

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:45 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 *sam* said: Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? As somebody who makes their money from selling chassis to the shops, and pretty much gives away items to players, I have to say that I have no problem with a drop in the price of loot. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:56 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Price drop in looted vehicles seems like a better way to go, and more easily explained as a RP implement, glut of chassis cause drop in prices etc. The gates fee serves a purpose, but restricts the small scout training solo car for new players already struggling with keeping fees low and after all its a tax, who likes taxes . The happy medium for now seems to be the ' loot ' idea, but no doubt somebody will have a view on why that isnt right but hey we are getting somewhere at least. ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:35 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 BWGunner said: a bus goes for $250,000 on the open market when you can theoretically build one for $80,000? Lesse...who can buy it, who can sell it and reap the rewards? The same dudes who can afford it. The threshold is too high. That's the main reason behind all these taxes isn't it? The player market completely bullocks right? So if you want to be draconian, change the way the market works and how things are sold, put caps on it, and change the info screen in the market to have more options besides a password Quote: Quote: *sam* said: Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? As somebody who makes their money from selling chassis to the shops, and pretty much gives away items to players, I have to say that I have no problem with a drop in the price of loot. yea agreed with Serephe, take away the value of loot cars and things really start to hurt, .. like SF never scout there for that reason Gate fees at least have a rational behind them, i don't like them very much but like we said let's wait a couple weeks to really see And yea this must really hurt people that are training their scouts EDIT: omg! what about making the first 100CR free, or muscle cars free? Also for people that rent, i would hope that the fee is included in the rental price Quote: EDIT: As I understand Shanty is econ sim for those who want it -- I have no problem with that -- just please don't take away the playground of those who want nothing to do with goods hauling to survive. SV should be the HARDCORE testbead for these kinda implimentations, agreed but for the rest, Why does one have to replace the other? we could just add the eco/sim stuff on top of what it is now, trader players sell stuff to the towns (food water, medicine) who then dispense it to the tactical players, and make a tidy profit doing it As for shortages... if there's one, how bout it is only 50% as bad as it could be like that everyones contented, think of it as "training wheels" and nobody will starve, unless "food shortages" can have some mild effect on the game just to tell you that there is one, could be fun to know ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:50 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 1:53 pm by *Tinker*

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Solf said: I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe there are people who are tired of tactical game and want to play econ sim. Maybe there are people who *want* econ sim, not the tactical game. But doing a 180 and turning mainly tactical shooter into serious econ sim is doing a great disservice to the people who enjoy current state of things. It's not so much a change to make it a different game as it is an attempt to "fix" the economic model to make it more in line with Sam's vision (tm). Quote: Let's not bundle two entirely different games together and make them both non-optional (or worse yet tactical shooter part being more optional than econ sim). That's the good thing - it's still optional. Don't want to truck in your own food/water/etc.? Don't - you'll just pay for it weekly like you do now. It will be CHEAPER to bring it in yourself, but you're not required to. Actually if you're making plenty of money now just playing the shooter (town events, scouts, etc.) then you won't see a difference in play other than a little higher "weekly fee." Trust me - I'm here because it's Car Wars. I'm not a sims fan either, but I can still play the game my way if I want. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:53 pm

Dundar Nexus9 Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: Jun 13, 2009 The way I see it there adding a gate fee would only raise the price of goods and services in a town, if we were talking real life, and not gameplay issues. If I am courier and yesterday you were paying me roughly 1500 to risk my life to run mail between Elmsfield and Somerset and no today I find out it will cost me an additional 500 dollars to do that run, I would raise the price of making that run to 2000 dollars. Of coarse, some people would start to undercut that and you would get a freemarket stabilization at some point, but the reality is that the price to run couriers WOULD go up. w Heck, right now I am only making about 1500 dollars on average running couriers between SS, ELMS, and GW. With this flat 500 fee at SS and ELMS and the crazy fee of 1200 at GW, I don't see myself running to GW anymore. It is just not worth the money and risk to me. Sam, if you want to tax transportation you need to implement some sort of percentage based tax and the amount of goods be transported. Also, since having out gangs to go out and hunt pirates is good for traders and the town, in theory, the should be encouraging it more by offering to cover the tax, or in the case of town, wave the tax or offer a discount. Also, I would think that delivering medicine, mail, and other goods on the part of the town would not be taxed. If you want to apply real-life economic principles that gate fee would in reality be disasterous for couriers and small time traders. You need to figure out some sort of percentage to apply to business transactions. Think of a sales tax, or consumption based tax. I just looked at somthing... I usually run vampires to train my scouts. With no weapons, and 20 unit fuel tank they can carry about 45 bulk. Going from SS to GW, with the new gate fees, 50% of the missions you would take a loss or break even. This doesn't make sense. Those missions would never be done. Add in the fuel costs, and any repairs from combat on the way, and you are looking at probably 65% of the time you are coming out behind. Courier missions should go up in price to accomodate these gate fees, or these missions for smaller bulk sizes would just go away since no one would take them and the customers would just pool their shipments to larger transporters, who would charge more. POSTSCRIPT: Also, exactly again what is the purpose of this gate fee? isn't the idea, money wise, in this game for your gang to get rich? I mean, really what is the problem then? I have been playing pretty regularly, and without getting to heavy into the trading market I can clear 150,000 a week. More if I play more, obviously. What i am saying is that what is so bad about all the "rich" people in the game. This isn't some zero sum economy in that if one person plays more and makes more money they are taking money away from someone else. As people play more, make more, and sell more, we all get richer. If you really want to address the over abundance of cars, weapons, etc... You need to somehow apply the supply and demand problems to the NPC gangs. Therefore if we over hunt an area gangs could be drain which would force players to hunt in other areas or further out, etc... As, For the garge fees, are they based on the "bulk" of the vehicle or the value of the vehicle. I would think that the more space you need the more it should cost. Therefore one guy with 4 buses would pay alot more than one guy with 4 musle cars. Just a thought.... ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:59 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 2:11 pm by Dundar

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 *sam* said: Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? Simple solution is make the first car free, rather than discuss 12 other ideas? ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 2:10 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Dundar: putting several changes through like this will only add extra complexity and confusion and potential unbalancing. This is why I like the idea of reducing the profit on loot sales directly - it means courier missions, scout training, etc. don't need rebalancing. Quote: since having out gangs to go out and hunt pirates is good for traders and the town, in theory, the should be encouraging it more by offering to cover the tax, or in the case of town, wave the tax or offer a discount. Yes, I was considering reducing the gates fee if you have hero points in the town, or (when we have implemented per-town reputation) anyone with a high local rep. would have no gates fee. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 2:13 pm

Crazy AL Street Pizza Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: Feb 14, 2008 Regarding the micromanagement of a gang's bulk goods like food and water, I would suggest that there be a player option to just put the whole thing on automatic pilot. You can default to paying for food and water just like you do now from towns and just see the result in your financial page. If you want to delve deeper into gang management you can purchase the goods from a trader player who trucked the stuff in from another town. If you want to cut out the middle men, you go get it yourself from the breadbasket of Evan. The gate fees should be regulated a bit more than the blanket: a car enters and you pay the fee. Size or CR of the car, value of the goods and not having to pay if the car was originally in the town are all good suggestions. Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? ......................... vet wv zom pvp1 ped1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:20 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 3:23 pm by Crazy AL

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:31 pm

Dundar Nexus9 Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: Jun 13, 2009 OKay... went back and read the WHOLE thread. Whew... Here is what I saw that I really like. Instead of spending money to fix cars we really should have the option of breaking down cars to fix cars. BUT if you want to pay to have the car fixed then it should cost a lot more. IMO this will fix two "problems" in the game. 1. Too much money out there: By getting players to break down cars into components to fix other cars they don't sell the cars and make money off those cars. Also, that means people need to keep more components in their lockup to do repairs, which in turn costs more money. 2. Hoarding, again, people will break down cars to repair cars. The only concern is to make sure you can't easily sell the car in pieces to make more money then selling it as a whole. In real life this seems to be backwards, but it isn't. What you can do is charge a fee to break down a car. This would be adjusted for the size of the car, and the value of the car, in that how much stuff can be salvaged. This will prevent people from making a killing breaking down cars and selling the parts to town. THEN, you charge for the repairs to a car, albeit less, if they have the available parts in the thier lockup. If they don't, then they are charged more for the repair. I know doing something like this would be more work, but to REALLY address the money issue you need to addd mechanisms into the gameplay to drain that money. Just slapping taxes, or fees, into the economy doens't completely solve the problem because some people will just scout more and work harder while other will just get rid of their inventory and play the same or less. That shouldn't the goal. If you want to remove cash, then you need to put into place a way that people will take "stuff" in place of money. The problem isn't vehicle, or item hoarding, the problem is basic inflation. You need to find a way to remove more money from the market without penalizing production. If you remove money by a mechanism that penalizes production then you just get less stuff in the game and you really haven't solved the problem. Basic exmaple: 100 widgets in the game... 100 dollars in the total economy in the game. Each widget equals 1 dollar. If the money supply goes to 200 dollars each widget is 2 dollars. Now if you implement a "tax" or "fee" that its goal is to reduce the money supply but you also reduce production, you don't achieve your goal of lowering prices... The example would be 50 dollars in the game, but now only 50 widgets in the game... you still have 1 dollar per widget. What you need to do is address the economic model in your game that "creates" money from nothing. In real life this is done from banks lending money. In your game, Sam, I think it mostly comes from loot cars, and resources. As I can tell there is no limit on the supply of NPC cars. Therefore going scouting an coming home with a loot car creates "new" money in the game because the car litteraly comes from no where and is sold for money. Also, resources, where do they come from exactly and how is a cost associated to the production of these resources? I don't know enough about the goods market of stone, water, food, etc... to make any argument about this, but when someone mentions there are thousands of units of stone, food, etc in SS, then some sort of dislocation in your market is occuring. Adding some incentive to turn loot cars into something other than money is think is one really viable option. Making the cars worth less, in essence a tax, doesn't remove money becuase some people will just loot more, and in turn make the same money. This can cause the game to turn into a grind for some, which will discourage play and enjoyment, which is obviously not your goal. Hope this helps. BTW, don't know how busy you are or what time you have available for reading but if you are interested in sound classical free market theories and principles to add to your game I suggest you read any book by the late Milton Freedman. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:32 pm

Dundar Nexus9 Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: Jun 13, 2009 *jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Right but it doesn't make sense profit wise. I gave the example of my 45 bulk transport and 65% of the time you were losing money. People will just stop doing these runs if the payments don't reflect the higher costs. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:34 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Dundar - I understand, and I don't disagree with you, just pointing out that "mail" and "medicines" are types of cargo and someone else is paying for it. It's still in flux... ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:36 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: As I can tell there is no limit on the supply of NPC cars. Therefore going scouting an coming home with a loot car creates "new" money in the game because the car litteraly comes from no where and is sold for money. Yep, a money source - what I'm trying to do is create money sinks to match it. There are already sinks of course - damage done to your vehicles in combat being one - but if the sources outweigh the sinks you get an unbalanced economy. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:46 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 3:48 pm by *sam*

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 *sam* said: Yep, a money source - what I'm trying to do is create money sinks to match it. There are already sinks of course - damage done to your vehicles in combat being one - but if the sources outweigh the sinks you get an unbalanced economy. This really getting deep Sam why don't you make less NPC cars out in the wild, but increase their AI a bunch and again do something to regulate the player market that's where people are making fist-fulls of bucks too ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:04 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 4:13 pm by *Tinker*

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: increase their AI a bunch That's the hardest thing to do! Unless you mean increase their gunnery skills...  ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:25 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 *sam* said: Quote: increase their AI a bunch That's the hardest thing to do! Unless you mean increase their gunnery skills...  How about give the changes a few weeks....oh I already said that.  Gotta give the extra training the NPCs are getting time to take effect? For instance the 3X in BL.... if they train once a week like us we wont see anything til really Friday, and this will be a big improvement I would think? ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:11 pm Last edited Sep 3, 2009, 5:12 pm by Longo

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