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Advance Warning of Rule Tweaks

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Hmm yes, those pages should be correct. Anyone else seeing their fees *reduced* ? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 4:46 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 I have moved so much stuff and sold even more , its very hard to say sam. ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Sep 2, 2009, 4:59 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I have a database backup from January handy.. from there I can see that Somerset has gone from 1.0 to 1.3 garage/lockup fee multiplier Elms from 0.75 to 1.2 GW from 2.5 to 4.5 BL from 3.0 to 5.0 And I don't recall making any changes in the last few months. So the fees have certainly gone up a little bit. (The new gates fee is the main change). ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 5:12 pm

BWGunner DriveByRomance Autodueller Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 413 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Crazy Al, the Dualist's Pal, cooks up a recipe we can all see the wisdom in. I guess that makes sense, really. ;-) This goes a LONG ways towards making sense of the whole game experience. It may raise the threshold for starting players, but perhaps they arrive with enough stocks to survive a month... which changes the nature of Raw Materials substantially. I think this is the opportunity to change LOOT substantially. If we need food and water in all the towns then I should find it on the cars I take in combat. We take everything they have and spare their lives. Leaving them food and water is optional. Participating in Camp ownership was a rude shock when Philyn and I took up that role. It was, and is, totally different than running a group in a town. I think the philosophies should be the same with services and protection being the only difference. It's tougher, yes, but that's the point, right? The game becomes a fight for owning the sources...and that's as it should be. ......................... vet wv cont Posted Sep 2, 2009, 5:43 pm

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,354 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 While reading Crazy Al's excellent post it got me thinking about the breaking down of items in town. I believe that the main sticking point on that is that players can exploit it by selling the separate parts (after breaking it down) back to the town for a larger $$ than it would have initially cost. Here is how it was explained to me: You buy or loot a GG and take it to camp. It takes 20 bulk to haul it. You get it there and break it down for EPS, Scrap and CPS. End of story. You can sell it in town for a few thousand, or you can break it down in town. You can turn around and sell the scrap, CPS & EPS for more money than what the GG would have brought, making it a possible exploit. This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. This would work best if we had to supply our own bulk goods in town to maintain structures, etc, (which I LOVE the idea of) but even without that feature added, this could be implemented. If you have bulk goods in town, whether from breaking items down or bringing back from a scout, you take it to a camp, trash them (which seems silly) or donate them for free to town. ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 7:45 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: This can be very easily corrected –  No towns will buy our bulk goods Yeah, this is the sort of thing that could make a big difference to the way things work. I think a major problem with the economy is that I tried to make it function properly with player gangs and at the same time with a behind-the-scenes set of traders and customers. Much easier to keep it balanced when the two parts are kept fairly separate. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 8:32 pm

BWGunner DriveByRomance Autodueller Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 413 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Perhaps, Sam, as we consider the view from this precipice you might ponder throwing money away entirely. I think this would be really difficult to manage, but just imagine of the inherent complexity and fun to be had with a commodity based market. "I'll sell you this here Phoenix for 200 liters of water, and that there machine gun." In Somerset this is quite a bargain, in Sars it's robbery. The profit, then, exists somewhere between. The trade cannot happen without the car, the water, and the machine gun being in the same place. That's a game changer for sure. Managing such a model and balancing it for game play is perhaps harder than what you're currently trying to do, but then it speaks much more to the point of this game. In a word, this game is entirely about survival. As it stands, survival is dictated almost entirely by a bullet, where in a real model of the game it would be more often defined by resources.... Consider carefully the path you choose next, Sam. I snuck a look at the map and it says, "Here there be dragons!" ......................... vet wv cont Posted Sep 2, 2009, 8:52 pm

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 *sam* said: I think a major problem with the economy is that I tried to make it function properly with player gangs and at the same time with a behind-the-scenes set of traders and customers. Much easier to keep it balanced when the two parts are kept fairly separate. I like the idea of npc economics, I just don't understand how it works, or if it has any measureable impact. I think what you did when creating npc markets and trade goods was above and beyond what I'd expect for the complexity of the game at the time- it just seems like DW has grown out of the current dislocated system. We have enough players now that the markets can be run by players- if there's a killing to be made in fuel, I suspect some enterprising camp will start trucking it in! It seems like if the commodities trade was largely player driven, or by npcs that are player-escorted (these caravans would have the really good stuff- maybe trader escort caravans are composed of only lorries and boxvans!), it would be much easier to see what towns are getting, and what they need. We would know that we need to be the ones to get it there. The npc economy is a nebulous thing based off how strong the pirates are. Goods are being moved around, but they're not really being generated anywhere or arriving anywhere, and the goods shipped aren't in demand at all. Stone between SS and Elms, when there's 10k units in each town? If no npc or players for that matter arrived in Gateway with a food shipment for months, it wouldn't make a whit of difference. My understanding is that npc shops get weapons and chassis based off of piracy levels, but how does it get there? I like to discuss stuff like this, and I think it would be amazing to have a vibrant, player driven economy that truly impacts what shows up in towns. I hope we can learn some things about the economy through the guinea pig called Shantyville! ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Sep 2, 2009, 9:05 pm Last edited Sep 2, 2009, 9:06 pm by Dr Mathias

Crazy AL Street Pizza Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: Feb 14, 2008 Yes, the cost of some bulk items vs. the supply of the same in towns always confused me, too. There's 10K of something and yet it's selling for more than in another place with 10K or less? I still believe there needs to be some NPC market and economy and I think it needs to be less invisible to players and make more logical sense since the player economy is going to be more logical as well. ......................... vet wv zom pvp1 ped1 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 9:29 pm

betterlucky Freewheel Burning Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: Jul 18, 2009 Just some random thoughts... I'd keep it simple to start with. Have each town have one major bulk product and one major bulk demand with the other items essentially fluctuating depending on distance from the main producer. I'd also suggest separating things like water/stone/mail from items that can be "made" by players like car parts and electronics as there is probably too much potential for unbalancing things. Have the player items operate in a market akin to the current weapons/vehicle one. In order to phase in the affect of players on the market carefully, I'd simply make the NPC market that much bigger than the player one. Have the current trader escorts have an impact, but a relatively minor one (including an effect if they are simply not being taken up) as they only represent a fraction of the total trade (assuming npc gangs are escorting the others). Likewise player purchases of commodities (I'm not including weapons/vehicles etc. as the current system seems to work well) if we're going to start having to supply our gangs with stuff to keep them happy. To keep it interesting though, getting hold of extras like drugs or special foods demanded by gang members will be harder. Those luxury items will be the first to feel any impact of a trade slow down (or recovery). Whether you want to represent that by setting variable wages (depending on market condition) or actually require the player to buy those perks in advance of payday or face an activity penalty (possibly along with the risk of a disappointed gang member leaving) is up to Sam, there are good arguments for doing it either way. So if a player truely wants to alter the market, they're going to need to setup some pretty damn big lorry squads of their own. Or mercilessly hunt down umpty-many trader gangs. Of course, if someone really wants to specialise in that there should be the opportunity to make a real killing... but the npcs should react of course. Players known to sell large quantities are going to start getting noticed by more (and larger) pirate gangs and those npc traders who suffer losses are going to start employing better escorts. Assuming that all works, then think about how to include the weapons/vehicle aspect so that it doesn't get totally screwed or at least not too often. ......................... vet wv zom Posted Sep 2, 2009, 10:41 pm

betterlucky Freewheel Burning Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: Jul 18, 2009 Oh, meant to add something about gate fees. A town under siege will want to encourage traders to try to break though and for gangs to come and defend. So have them decrease a bit when a town has high pirate activity and increase when it's low. This should have the additional effect of encouraging players to spread out a bit too. ......................... vet wv zom Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:00 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:16 pm

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,354 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:24 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:55 pm

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 *sam* said: Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Who are you and what have you done with *sam* ? ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:04 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Dr Mathias said: *sam* said: Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Who are you and what have you done with *sam* ? This is Sam II ' The Revenge Of The Developer ' ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:18 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Family Reunion at Sam's house and Flaming logged in. Unfortunately Sam had "Save all passwords" checked, hehe ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:21 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:39 am

Crazy AL Street Pizza Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: Feb 14, 2008 Actually, I don't see a reason why the town won't buy and sell bulk goods like they do now. Regarding as to whether a player WOULD sell to town is another thing. I feel that the town is going to be producing all of those things on it's own and the worth of the bulk goods a player collects for his own gang should be much more than the town should give for them. And purchasing them from a town is going to be extremely expensive. Essentially, the value of bulk goods should go way up in value especially when weighed against the dollar. Only a fool or someone with WAY to much of one type of bulk good should ever be thinking that a great way to make money is to sell their bulk goods back to town. And truthfully even with a extra lorry full of a bulk good, selling to a PLAYER should who would WANT to pay much more for that bulk good than the town would ever pay should be the norm. ......................... vet wv zom pvp1 ped1 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:24 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Sorry to be the odd man out here, but frankly I think you guys are playing with fire, when some casual players find out their characters starved to death a week or two after this change. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:29 am

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