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Giant Insects, and other wildlife

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 (Sorry for putting this into announcements, I wanted to avoid it being buried by other posts). I have been thinking about the role of giant insects and the other wilderness creatures I have models for (wolves, bears, snakes, etc.) I'm really looking forward to introducing these to the game, and I want them to have unique roles, not just to be 'alternative NPC pirates to fight'. I'd like the battling of giant insects to be a communal concern, and for it to encourage cooperative play. The problem is of course that DW being an anarchic society generally encourages selfish play. Giving out 'mega loot' for battling insects seems a bit artificial, to me, although certainly medicines could be looted from some, and bounties/hero points could be offered. What I'd like to see is that the insect threat should be a constant one, and one that gets worse and worse unless its kept in check. If no-one scouts against them, everyone suffers worse and worse attacks during travel. I also want to make the insect threat fluctuate across the continent based on season and aurora activity. However, I have learned that I need to get player buy-in before dumping something nasty at your feet... so, what'dya all think? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:34 am Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 10:42 am by *sam*

Valiance The Vanguards Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,172 Joined: Jan 15, 2008 Hello Sam, My comments: 1) Fluctuating through seasons and aurora is, I think, fine when it happens to OTHER people. The problem last time was that my prized laser Vixen (for example) was arbitrarily nerfed by the aurora, so I had no choice but never to use it because I might forget and take it out when the Aurora was strong and then lose it. That felt arbitrary and capricious and wrong; whereas in your new proposal, my laser Vixen will always work - I just may have to fight hordes of bugs, instead of just a few bugs. That's a pressure I can live with, and doesn't feel like taking away the fun 2) You appear to be building a Game Theory test. I'm no expert, but it looks a little like the Prisoner's dilemma. The best thing for Evan society is for everyone to band together and stamp out insects. The best thing for me personally is to stand by while everyone else stamps out insects, cos I get the benefit without the risk. If everyone behaved like me (purely theoretically, you understand), no one would stamp out any insects, human society would be extinguished and Insects will rule. (For a fascinating discussion on how this has happened - including why did humans cut down every single tree on Easter Island, even when they depended for them on survival) read Jared Diamond's Collapse). So in my view, to make this work, you need more than just an altruistic motive. You need to give me a personal, not just a communal motive, to fight insects. Some suggestions: 1) skills train faster, especially leadership, courage and gunnery, against insects. (I'd like to include First Aid in there so it can grow in combat, but not sure how to justify it) 2) Rare car parts are made with insect body parts (I'm thinking chitin standing in for plastic, acid spitters, etc) 3) Medicines, as you mentioned 4) Hero points, but with the tweaks about Jake handing out a given piece of kit, not just a Hero Point 5) Badges. I want a Bug Hunter badge I think the game theory issue is worth thinking about: Acting for the general good is very noble, but what's in it for me? V ......................... vet combat1 wv ped1 northernsummer Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:08 am

Parduz BroadRausters Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 523 Joined: Feb 5, 2008 Hard to say, Sam. I feel a lack of the "final general picture" of Evan. I mean that i don't know or see how the finished environment of the game have to be... i don't know the goal of the whole project (i'm not saying that there's not one, just that i still have to see it). So, how insects and animals are affecting the environment? Are they present also in players vs NPCs events? if so, do they attack humans no matter what side those are? As they're GIANT, do they attack cars... HOW? I just see melee combat (really, can the "fire" somewhat?) If they are dangerous in travels and nothing else, then they'll become "just" another thing to worry about, without any real effect on the game other than making travels more dangerous for newbs and more worhty for vets (if the killed "creatures" give you somewhat worthy) If a player can scout for them, then they'll become just an alternative, that may be ignored or overused depending on what's the prize for hunting them. IMHO, you need to well integrate pirates and insects in the "Evan life", or you will end with just another "mechanic" without any "feel". I'll throw some idea: As pirates actually makes travelling a risk, i'll go toward somewhat else.... maybe insects can damage thing in the towns if not hunted and mantained far (just like rain damage things in camp.. they may appears from the ground if you don't go fight the "nest" in the wild). So you may want to fight them just to keep what you have, not to gain somewhat (which may happens if you find some rare beast....when "rare" means "rare", not overpowered or only localized in some hard zone). If insects are "nest - based", you may use Nests like camps: you've to find them before going fighting them. Then you have a "normal" combat event against the insects, and if citizens do it with some regularity, the nests will "move" far from that town. If they only do melee fight then you can have some advantage from flamethrowers and close combact weapons, which are not well used right now. I'll do travel encounters with insect very rare: that's the reason we have predefined routes... or do you plan to do "offroad" travels? If i can go (as example) from a camp to an another (or from a SS camp to Elm) without following routes, then i can see the risk of having a "nest" encounter, or somewhat similar.... pirates should challenge the routes, insects the wilderness. If a route is not used then insect could go towards it (that route is becoming "wild"), while a well used route should not have insects risk. Going offroad in a map maybe can allow some insect to appears...but if you're already chased by NPCs, now that they start driving well, then i think you (the player) have enough to worry about. It may depends on how much hardcore DW have to be when it is finished. So, at the end, i'll like to see insects and animals as "living part" of the environment, not just as other thing that walks on it to be killed. ......................... vet wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:15 am

Valiance The Vanguards Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,172 Joined: Jan 15, 2008 I particularly like this one of Pard's suggestions: Insects are particularly prevalent on the routes to camps - because camp members are already working together, they have a real incentive to smoke out insects, maybe even pay people to do it. ......................... vet combat1 wv ped1 northernsummer Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:49 am

*JD_Basher* Gearjammers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Storytellers Posts: 2,728 Joined: Feb 11, 2007 "Nesting" is a damn good idea for the insect cadre.... They dont settle in one place if they are constantly attacked and killed off. Rather, they move the 'nest' to other suitable places and begin multiplying in that spot. Suitable loot could be 'Chitin Armor'. better than "B" armor but less than "A" Taken from the insects exoskeleton. (50 skill mech needed to take the Chitin) Also, for 'acid' using insects, you get Medicines as long as you have a 50 skill first-aid character/member. ......................... vet marshal wv cont Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:50 am

Parduz BroadRausters Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 523 Joined: Feb 5, 2008 Valiance said: I particularly like this one of Pard's suggestions: Insects are particularly prevalent on the routes to camps - because camp members are already working together, they have a real incentive to smoke out insects, maybe even pay people to do it. OUCH, i may have not explained well. I used camps as an example of a thing that is not existent right now: travelling NOT in routes. Routes (all) should be secure from insects, maybe depending on how much they're used. If i can make a travel between two places that DON'T have a route (like camp to camp) then i'll risk insects instead of pirates.... hope you can understand me ......................... vet wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:53 am

Alocalypse Advanced Race Labs Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: May 6, 2007 If you want cooperative play on a more 'macro' level compared to squads then I think you just need to give players the option to coordinate multi-squad attacks. Stuff like calling a second squad to help if you have an arrival encounter (this would really need the "Check for arrival" button) to either try to fight off the pirates/insects, join your damaged cars in a fight for the pirates or try to distract and draw them away so you can make a run for the gates. Or insect hives being so massive that they need to be attacked from serveral directions by different squads at once because any single squad would get overwhelmed too easily either by multiple (hard) road encounters on the way to the hive or just sheer numbers due to the whole hive going berzerk. While using more strategy the smarter humans could slightly confuse the insects and gain an advantage. After the first strike from multiple directions there'd be more battles which get either harder or easier depending on how well the squads participating do overall. That's a few examples of adding more cooperation other than just scouting together and providing resources for camps. ......................... vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:59 am

Lung Aristocrats Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: Jan 17, 2008 I never liked playing any games where insects were involved. Jagged Alliance (which i believe was the best turn based, squad type shooter) had an "insect" variable. You had insects instead of men/women. It just changed the whole atmosphere of the game and was not well received by the warmonger player that wanted to play against humans. I think most of us play DW for the car and human/NPC killing. In DW however, where there is a "wilderness" to endure, I believe there is a place for insects and wild animals as long as they do not "over" infulence the game world. Sure an attack on convoys here and there with wild hyenas, dogs, and lions would add to the realizm but an attack of wild ants or bumble bees that wipe out an Apache (or any vehicle without windows - like a Buggy) is just not realistic or what I want to deal with in this car game. I should be able to roll up my windows and survive just about any insect attack. An animal however should cause a little more danger. Again staying in the car is the bettter survival tactic. Peds on the other hand would have to deal with both animals and insects and both could cause death to peds, player & NPC alike, if not dealt with properly. Gaining skills, abilities and bulk goods from insects and animals should be the player influence to go after them. I think insects in DW should only be "pests" not players. I think it's more important to "adjust DOWN" the ability to fire and the firing accuracy of NPC vehicles after they have been Demoed. ......................... vet Posted Jun 9, 2008, 1:46 pm

*Zothen* Knights Templar Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 841 Joined: Jun 11, 2007 I dont know what animals like wolves, bears and snakes should add for the gameplay? I dont like games where you have to grind animals for exp or loot, cos its the most clear reflection of how cruel mankind deals with animals. Also animals would hardly attack cars... in most times not even people. Please omit grinding animals. Insects on the other side are rather more "alien" and would fit much more into a post-apo-setting. ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 1:59 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 2:01 pm by Zothen

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: I dont know what animals like wolves, bears and snakes should add for the gameplay? They would mostly be important in the pedestrian-only missions (investigating the ruins, etc.). You might occasionally meet some mutated animals that would be large enough to attack a car, but that would be rare. Quote: I dont like games where you have to grind animals for exp or loot That was never intended. I already said I didn't see much loot possibilities with insects (and even less with other animals). And as for experience, as you know there's plenty of other ways to improve that, so there's no questions of "having to" grind against animals. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 2:22 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 2:23 pm by *sam*

*Zothen* Knights Templar Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 841 Joined: Jun 11, 2007 Yep, "grinding animals" was rather related to the usual big commercial MMOs on the market these days, that only past and copy their ideas so they dont might risk loosing any of those players who are conditioned to the "gaining gameplay style". Im very happy for every MMO that walks another way. Imo, DW needs more stuff that brings players together. I see too much of us playing DW rather as massive-singleplayer-game than real multiplayer. Trackevents with more than 2 players have become very unlikely and unfortunatly playing in the wild alone pays off much better... So a big "Yes" for anything that emphases multiplayer at a larger scale! ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 2:36 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 2:37 pm by Zothen

*Lugal* Luna Sea Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 2,246 Joined: Jan 27, 2008 Lung said: an attack of wild ants or bumble bees that wipe out an Apache (or any vehicle without windows - like a Buggy) is just not realistic or what I want to deal with in this car game. I should be able to roll up my windows and survive just about any insect attack. Tell that to the lorry-sized beetle.  Sam's not talking about swarms of mundane bugs, he's talking about encounters with Them; human and larger sized insect muties. Personally, I'd like to see bugs implemented in two ways, encounter-based and region-based.  Encounter-based simply means chance encounters with one or a few bugs out in the wilderness, taking the place of pirate attacks, etc.  This aspect could go live once the bugs themselves are done, both as a 'test' and as a realism factor (a few sightings here and there before the swarms arrive.)  Region-based could be done one of two ways.  First, and probably easiest, is centralize bug activity near one town - say Morgan for example.  If you want to fight bugs, go there; if you hate bug-content, stay away.  There'll still be a few random bug-fights all over Evan, but the big battles are more or less in that one area.  Make the incentive either a 'drop' from the bugs or access to the town's resources - too many bugs and players lose the town until they take it back. Second option is to group the bugs like pirate gangs around each town.  That way they can be hunted if strong, and also beaten back so that they're not much threat - in that town.  This way could easily be tied into the Local Hero system. Either way, giving the bugs camp-esque nests is a great idea. I think the mechanics behind camp combat (once available) could be used for 'nest combat' - the only real way to drive back the bugs. ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 5:27 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Sam- On occasion, when we lose a battle, and our guys dont make it back to camp, they die of starvation or are eaten by wolves , or whatever. It be cool in these instances if there is a chance that a box comes up and says "Johnny Danger is attacked walking back to town. Would you like to fight for his life?" Then your ped(s) get a chance to stay with your gang, in an encounter with a pack of wolves, or a giant bear. Yes, it would really stink if you forgot to load your ganger with a weap, but oh well. Shotguns would be the weap of choice vs a bear of course At least we would get a chance to save our ganger in this situation. As for bugs, Id just introduce em as encounters the same as pirates for now, and see how it goes. Then you can expand on them after getting more feedback. And no, I dont like the camp only roads for bugs. With the BL camps, there is already enough on the road to have to worry about. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 7:20 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 7:23 pm by Longo

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: On occasion, when we lose a battle, and our guys dont make it back to camp, they die of starvation or are eaten by wolves , or whatever. It be cool in these instances if there is a chance that a box comes up and says "Johnny Danger is attacked walking back to town. Would you like to fight for his life?" Then your ped(s) get a chance to stay with your gang, in an encounter with a pack of wolves, or a giant bear. That's good, yeah. It would be much more approriate than a bear attacking a squad of cars. I actually plan to add another thing that can happen after you lose a battle: you get transported to Firelight as slaves and have to fight for your freedom, gladiator-style, in arena combats there versus insects and animals. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 8:32 pm

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,008 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 please give us the chance to capture our own prisoners that we can transports and sell in firelite or eat since we will be a canibal gang when focuses come out. i like the idea of expanding character play after event in the wilderness. perhaps give a night type mission when bugs come out more on foot or in cars and just use maps but get a better chance to find bugs and if people dont hunt they start to attack during normal encounters. nest clearing would be fun for ped encounters. or have an encounter where we find bugs attacking what we were scouting for and a multi squad war could start all to see who brings in the insect heads. like a town event first squad to bring home the most insect heads wins the prize? but pirates attack too. lol i wanna see mikes 17 car squad alos 20 car squad and everyone elses vs 1000 bugs lol ok ill stop. perhaps the bugs are attracted to something (gas food water)we all need and use and if there not killed off stocks run out? or have diffrent bugs attracted to diffrent matereals. i like the idea of looting something from the insects medicine, weapon/armor components. perhaps body armor or some other rare new item could be created and used with this loot or allow the dead corpses with a good mech could maybe add some armor to a breeched side as a temporary patchwork to get home in a dammaged car? ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 9:41 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 9:48 pm by darthspanky

pweelg Canis Lupus Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 741 Joined: Aug 19, 2007 I think the use of Hive insects offers many possiblites, from raiding their underground (old army base?) nests ped wise for rare parts (eps?) To defending towns and camps, iin large scale events similar to the npc v npc events. The suggestion to encounter animals and defend your self is a very good one, i like that a lot. Of course this then opens up the whole flying thing ......................... vet combatL1 raceL1 wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 9:58 pm

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,008 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 can insects be created and or controlled as my mad dr spankenstien suggested or hired to do a contract? hehe ps that camp i sold ya jd was right above a nest lol. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:09 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 10:11 pm by darthspanky

Valiance The Vanguards Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,172 Joined: Jan 15, 2008 darth is back and he used a punctuation mark. I saw it. ......................... vet combat1 wv ped1 northernsummer Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:14 pm

madmax MainForcePatrol Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: Dec 6, 2007 2 actually, but only the period is special. He uses question marks even on non questions. Valiance is back too! ......................... vet wv Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:30 pm Last edited Jun 9, 2008, 10:30 pm by madmax

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,008 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 hey im learning puntation#.,/ see i cant even spell it right????? lol./,.,.,. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:56 pm

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