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Ammo Production

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Krakhedd said: The food and water are nowhere near as easily obtainable for many camps as the CPs etc.  Those are valid costs, no matter which way you try to twist it, sorry. You can't twist fact. Does or does it not show the amount of food and water needed in production of your ammo factory?? A simple yes or no will do nicely. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:07 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 Does the factory run by itself without any NPC workers, which require food water, shelter, and a paycheck? Or do they just magically make stuff as you propose they do in towns? A simple yes/no will equally suffice. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:57 am Last edited Jan 2, 2016, 1:57 am by Krakhedd

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 And the answer to your question is, not exactly - it shows it as 12 NPCs working in the factory ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:58 am

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Krakhedd said: And the answer to your question is, not exactly - it shows it as 12 NPCs working in the factory Thats about as weak an answer as expected, especially when you know what it says. Since you can't figure it out, I have included an example for you. No food or water requirements. Even though this is a engine factory, I am pretty sure it wouldn't require more items to make simple ammo clips?? I would ask right or wrong, but you seem to have an issue with one word responses. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 2:39 am

*Splurs* Splurs Scroungers Racer Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 163 Joined: Dec 17, 2012 I really don't understand why people need to hate on others. The fact of the matter is if you have a factory there and the house to have the workers then yes it would be costing you the same amount of money if it makes ammo or nothing, HOWEVER when your trying to make a profit from producing an item you take into account all costs associated with that item. If that isn't the case why do people sell anything for money at camp? Food/water can't be taken into account as they would be needed anyway, CP/EP/Scrap/Plastics can all be gotten from scouting, then with this logic there is no cost apart from changing over a production type. Yes this is a far stretch, but it would be true for everything. I know we are going off topic as it was designed for Ammo conversation, and I am still unsure of how someone can make money off making ammo, the CP alone if I was to ship them in would make more money than the ammo itself, (unless that was jacked up too when the ammo production was in full swing). Currently I am making 7-8 lots of Nape reloads a day, for 14-16 Car Parts, way over priced as I can make more money moving those Car Parts to town to sell, however it is about convienience and some kind of self sustainment, the only problem I have is not being able to make MM ammo. I don't believe ammo should be the same amount of CR as the actual weapon. ......................... vet wv marshal Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:21 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: *StCrispin* said: 1 MM ammo (in a 54% factory with a 12.5% boost) uses 7 CP, 1/4th unit food, 1/4th unit water So when you click on your MM ammo factory, it says takes 7 CPs, 0.25 units or water and 0.25 units of food??? No, because the food an water requirement varies based on the "Worker Priority" setting you set, and the number of workers working (noted in the text that prints out when you click your factory) that shop. If you had, for example only 6 workers working you would only need 1/2 as much food.  However you would require twice as much time to produce the item (as noted in the box indicating time needed).  Which in the end would be exactly the same food and water requirement. You CAN, if you want, EXPLOIT this. get 12 workers working a factory, then put all your food and water in a Lorry.  As the workers leave camp seeking food and water, they will be pulled from the lowest priority jobs (or from the idle pool).  Often, if you have enough workers, you can produce an item without food and water for a few days, depending on your population.  then just put out a day's worth of food and water and the guys who left will return. If you feel like all that trouble to save yourself a couple hundred bucks. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:25 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: Krakhedd said: The food and water are nowhere near as easily obtainable for many camps as the CPs etc.  Those are valid costs, no matter which way you try to twist it, sorry. You can't twist fact. Does or does it not show the amount of food and water needed in production of your ammo factory?? A simple yes or no will do nicely. Yes. You left off part of what it displays: Number of workers working a factory.  That in turn tells you how much food and water you expend. This is like asking if your Car tells you how many miles per gallon it gets.  It does if you divide the total range by the amount of fuel. As in this case: number of workers times the required food and water per worker times the number of days required to make an item ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:27 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: Krakhedd said: And the answer to your question is, not exactly - it shows it as 12 NPCs working in the factory Thats about as weak an answer as expected, especially when you know what it says. Since you can't figure it out, I have included an example for you. No food or water requirements. Even though this is a engine factory, I am pretty sure it wouldn't require more items to make simple ammo clips?? I would ask right or wrong, but you seem to have an issue with one word responses. In this example, even though you have HIDDEN the FACTS needed to determine food and water requirements... 12 workers x 0.10 food per worker per day x 2.67 days = 3.20 food 3.20 water But, again I think the Wiki is incorrect.  My camp in Texan uses 6 food and 6 water per day.  However I have enough NPC workers that it should exceed that if the Wiki were correct. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:30 am Last edited Jan 2, 2016, 5:58 am by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 X Man. Show me where it says you need a camp in your example to produce that engine. I don't see it saying I need a camp. That's your version of logic ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:31 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 *StCrispin* said: X Man. Show me where it says you need a camp in your example to produce that engine.  I don't see it saying I need a camp. That's your version of logic x2 Myopic and short-sighted, at best.  Blatantly, perhaps willfully, ignorant or otherwise incapable of grasping the concepts, at worst. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 5:29 am Last edited Jan 2, 2016, 5:29 am by Krakhedd

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Krakhedd said: *StCrispin* said: X Man. Show me where it says you need a camp in your example to produce that engine.  I don't see it saying I need a camp. That's your version of logic x2 Myopic and short-sighted, at best.  Blatantly, perhaps willfully, ignorant or otherwise incapable of grasping the concepts, at worst. Check the Wiki. Lots of camp info there. **If you remove all food and water from camp you can still produce whatever your factory is set to make** Also krak, if you start using insults again in your posts, remember Sam has already issued you a formal warning for such behavior. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 6:52 am

*Splurs* Splurs Scroungers Racer Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 163 Joined: Dec 17, 2012 I don't know about the rest of the DW community, but I am getting sick to death of a thread getting started about a legitimate issue/concern, only to high jacked by "A D#ck slinging competition"  if you want to do that go do it somewhere else, and only post legitimate content to this post! Quote: Also krak, if you start using insults again in your posts, remember Sam has already issued you a formal warning for such behavior. Yes Krak is out of line by his comment, but if he get punished for it I hope you get done for trolling X. I don't know if you genuinely cannot see what Crisp and Krak are talking about OR you are on purpose trolling for the remarks Krak has said. Lets get back to Ammo production, and ALL its costs. Same as any other item production would be done. ......................... vet wv marshal Posted Jan 2, 2016, 7:46 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: **If you remove all food and water from camp you can still produce whatever your factory is set to make** Correct.  This is an Exploit.  And Cheating. (Also it will only produce until all NPC leave camp, which takes sometimes as much as 2 weeks). ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 7:51 am

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Splurs said: I don't know about the rest of the DW community, but I am getting sick to death of a thread getting started about a legitimate issue/concern, only to high jacked by "A D#ck slinging competition"  if you want to do that go do it somewhere else, and only post legitimate content to this post! Quote: Also krak, if you start using insults again in your posts, remember Sam has already issued you a formal warning for such behavior. Yes Krak is out of line by his comment, but if he get punished for it I hope you get done for trolling X. I don't know if you genuinely cannot see what Crisp and Krak are talking about OR you are on purpose trolling for the remarks Krak has said. Lets get back to Ammo production, and ALL its costs. Same as any other item production would be done. Because I dispute their claim on what they think are legit expenses is trolling?? I don't think so. Everything I posted was trying to get them to provide an accurate cost of things you actually use to produce an item. Do I care they wish to make ammo at camp? NO, not in the slightest. They can make as much as they want till it overflows over camp fences, I still don't care. Sam made a change to ammo production, but based on their figures, it still may not be good enough by their calculations. I would rather see more than one camp come up with their own figures, then compare to make things accurate to determine if any further changes are necessary. So thats a hint Splurs, lets see what you come up with. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 9:27 am Last edited Jan 2, 2016, 9:28 am by *The X Man*

*Awefense* Kings of Metal Autodueller Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 396 Joined: Sep 20, 2011 I'd join in the ammo production research, but simply put, I'm too cheap to spend the cash to switch factories over. Trying to stay in the black over here. Awefense ......................... vet wv pvp4 marshal gwextrav Posted Jan 2, 2016, 9:42 am

*Splurs* Splurs Scroungers Racer Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 163 Joined: Dec 17, 2012 Quote: So thats a hint Splurs, lets see what you come up with. I have done the research with Nape ammo currently as at page 4 of this topic Quote: I have just switched to nape ammo, takes 34 hrs 2 car parts, that is at 1% I have no upgraded it to 10%, and it is running at 3 hrs. (I can only assume it is 3.4 hrs because last daily reset I only made 7 not 8) I was also the one that started the CC ammo that caused this who thread. Quote: Because I dispute their claim on what they think are legit expenses is trolling?? I don't think so. Everything I posted was trying to get them to provide an accurate cost of things you actually use to produce an item. No I don't believe this to be trolling, however when your informed of how they are calulating it, with food/water/and with the inclusion and exclusion of CP as 2 different figures, and you are saying those things don't count then I see that as trolling. As far as I can see Crisp has done all he can with the figures he has to get an accurate price, and all I see you doing is trying to poke holes into it. One factory or 15 in a camp it shouldn't matter, ALL costs associated with that type of ammo production should be looked at. ......................... vet wv marshal Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:09 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Splurs, that is helpful info to those who would consider making ammo, but you have not included one thing involving cost. If cost is not a concern for you and just production results, thats fine, I can live with that. Ammo production did need a tweak which Sam addressed, so you should see those improvements benefit your needs. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 7:43 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: Splurs, that is helpful info to those who would consider making ammo, but you have not included one thing involving cost. If cost is not a concern for you and just production results, thats fine, I can live with that. Ammo production did need a tweak which Sam addressed, so you should see those improvements benefit your needs. I already crunched the numbers for Splurs example.  You merely scoffed at it and moved on to your "that doesn't count" argument. As it stands, if the need for CPs to make the ammo were removed and the rest were left the same the cost to produce ammunition is about 2x the cost to buy it in town. ---(barring the inclusion of coincidental costs like ammo expended in defenses and such, which is not calculable as it would vary from player to player and case by case) This seems realistic to me, as it saves fuel cost and repairs for hauling it in by cargo vehicle.  To other is may still not make sense (and from an economic point of view still doesn't make sense because it brings to question how the NPCs can manufacture it and sell it at a profit for HALF of what it would cost them to MAGICALLY produce it from thin air without materiel or work) However, with the inclusion of parts it simple becomes absurd in cost. As an example, the parts needed to produce HMG ammunition ($86 in town) costs an average of $750 - $1050 in parts alone. and even if you produced it in the town with the lowest cost for CPs (Sarsfield) it would still cost $258 in parts alone for the NPCs to magically conjure it without labor. That's 3x what they sell it for. Show me a business that spends $3 to make $1 (other than the US Government) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 10:38 pm

*Splurs* Splurs Scroungers Racer Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 163 Joined: Dec 17, 2012 Quote: Show me a business that spends $3 to make $1 (other than the US Government) The Australian Government. Quote: If cost is not a concern for you and just production results, thats fine, I can live with that. Cost is not a real concern with me, however it did seem like one that made ammo so hard to make in the past, hence it got tweaked, I just want a worthwhile ammo production, both with time and with CP/Scrap if that was ever to be put into it. My issue would arrise once it gets to the point of CP cost and the hassle of moving them to town to sell becomes more favorable to do than make ammo, thus making it more about money than actual playing the game. Lorry moving in the northern triangle is almost no risk, so that isn't the problem. Any if i wanted to make money I would pump out the lower MR items and sell them in SS (SMGs, racks, LMGs). I don't want it to become about money, however I also dont want it to be looked at as money not mattering either. ......................... vet wv marshal Posted Jan 3, 2016, 1:36 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 1. governments are not businesses.. they are never expected to make money. that wold be silly... 2. where governments do run businesses (as all do) their bottom line is calculated not by the money that business makes, but by the prospective losses in other areas it mitigates. Government spending cannot possibly be calculated in the same way as a business that does no incur other costs if what it does causes other bits of the social system to collapse. this is really basic economics understood by everyone outside of the loony fringe of the right incidentally. from an economic analysis, and with shifting parameters, X is entirely right. Crispin, Krakk and others are including costs in the the production costs that ae themselves in part met by the production. crispins rather childish analysis assumes people buy all their materials in the AI market... others make a more adult attempt to understand the flow of money in the equation which is pretty interesting but possible to model. part of the issue is that different camps also produce other items which change the equation. but fundamentally the point that car parts and a good whack of other ingredients are free to the camp owner (because there is no scarcity in wild items generating them) is true and important. when you produce a clip you typically produce more than the materials to recreate it from its own output. unless you are rubbish at the game. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 3, 2016, 2:00 am Last edited Jan 3, 2016, 2:09 am by goat starer

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