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Ammo Production

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 I messed up my math on the 1st page w/ the $40/reload figure. The accurate figure would be $126 / 60% (retail markup) = $78.75, far shy of the $1477 Crisp calculated (minus CPs which I'm again assuming are free). So, an increase of 6x goes a ways, for sure, but I wonder if it should be closer to 10x-15x, maybe even 20x. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 22, 2015, 2:32 am Last edited Dec 22, 2015, 3:21 am by Krakhedd

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Krakhedd said: then again, an elite to Crispy is a cross-trained 75-100 skill ganger Because they die in disasterous Krak-Scouts at around 98 skill. lol.  ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 22, 2015, 4:37 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 I been culling my crews with Boon, you haven't been around to join in all the fun..... But that's off-topic....I'll check ammo production rates for my desired ammos, give me a couple or a few weeks and I'll report my findings. It will only be a couple or a few ammo types. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 22, 2015, 6:24 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *StCrispin* said: And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others) If it works for Car Chassis, Engines, Weapons and Tyres in those towns why wouldn't it work for Ammo?  Then players making it and selling it would have a purpose.  Not that they would sell CC ammo that cost them $1477 plus Materiels to make, at $115 to the NPC.  it would be in the player market for a more realistic price.  Hmmm.. Yes...we could make everything scarce in towns and have s dynamic economy that relies entirely on looting and camp production! Somebody should come up with a name for it... Darkwind Salvager? Dark wind Scrappager?... Answers on a postcard. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Dec 23, 2015, 7:31 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 On a serious point... Common ammo is never a problem in scavenger. If camps made the rare stuff ammo would work just fine with just s player market in regular. Any worries about people being unable to scout would be remove if the time to change weapons was also removed. And camps making and selling ammo makes s lot more sense than rolling off ambulances. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Dec 23, 2015, 7:34 am

*Splurs* Splurs Scroungers Racer Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 163 Joined: Dec 17, 2012 I don't believe ammo should be limited, as was said earlier it will make vets better and hurt the newer players. I don't really believ ammo should use as much car parts either, instead I would of thought more scrap metal and less car parts. The way I have seen it so far with older people selling off ammo to make a profit wouldn't you make more money just moving the car parts? I have just switched to nape ammo, takes 34 hrs 2 car parts, that is at 1% I do agree that car parts in camp are easy to come by, and the nape ammo seems like it should be well balance, and now worthwhile to make at least that kind of ammo. Means 1 less I need to move in. ......................... vet wv marshal Posted Dec 26, 2015, 12:26 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 bear in mind that at 1% you are paying: (Per Week) $120 upkeep. $840 NPC Wages $450 Housing Upkeep (for 12 NPCs) $160 Food/Water (Cheap Northern estimate) NOT COUNTING CPs: Cost $1570 to make ALMOST 5 reloads. Camp Nape Reload at 1% costs: $314 (not counting $500 to $700 worth of parts) Town Nape Reload: $60 Somehow the NPCs are making a profit.  Or they are a buncha rubes ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 29, 2015, 1:17 am Last edited Dec 29, 2015, 1:18 am by *StCrispin*

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 *StCrispin* said: bear in mind that at 1% you are paying: (Per Week) $120 upkeep. $840 NPC Wages $450 Housing Upkeep (for 12 NPCs) $160 Food/Water (Cheap Northern estimate) NOT COUNTING CPs: Cost $1570 to make ALMOST 5 reloads. Camp Nape Reload at 1% costs: $314 (not counting $500 to $700 worth of parts) Town Nape Reload: $60 Somehow the NPCs are making a profit.  Or they are a buncha rubes Whether you make ammo or make nothing, you still have housing upkeep. So this doesn't apply. (Same could be argued about the factory or mech shops, but I will leave these two out for now) Whether you make ammo or make nothing, your mechs will still consume food and water. So this doesn't apply. Car Parts are FREE from loot broken down at camp, So this doesn't apply. I am sure recalculating your spreadsheet with these adjustments, your costs per clip will be much more in reality. Plus, I hope you subtract any production boosts your camp has. because that will skew production costs too. Also, run your factory at 100% so you get the most accurate figures. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Dec 29, 2015, 6:12 am Last edited Dec 29, 2015, 6:18 am by *The X Man*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: Whether you make ammo or make nothing, your mechs will still consume food and water. So this doesn't apply. So by this logic, if you feed your workers in real life, you cant count that as an expense on your business books because they would have eaten something anyway? I need to live near you so you can feed me for not working! *The X Man* said: Car Parts are FREE from loot broken down at camp, So this doesn't apply. Town NPCs don't have camps.  Do they also get free CPs that are then not factored into their profit/loss reports for town sales? We are talking about the logic of the economy here.  Somehow the Town NPCs Magically create free CPs and don't EAT OR DRINK, and don't have rent, or Upkeep or any expenses.  Because if they did, then the economy would have to make sense. So by your point of view this is Harry Potter World with Cars and Guns and nothing needs to actually make any sense (even the economy) Not trying to be sarcastic or snide, just putting it into perspective for the nay-sayers. *The X Man* said: I am sure recalculating your spreadsheet with these adjustments, your costs per clip will be much more in reality. Nope, it would be much more like Magic. Harry Potter said: "Expecto Ammuinitio!" - *The X Man* said: Plus, I hope you subtract any production boosts your camp has. because that will skew production costs too. I don't have Production Boosts and since we are discussing the NPC's ability to produce Ammo at such a low cost comparatively I would say they must be some ALT-ING MFers with a bunch of Truce Travel MoFos running 20 Lorry Squads all over the place like a Krak-Tastic Fiend!  Makin that money and buying Sponsors all over the place. *The X Man* said: Also, run your factory at 100% so you get the most accurate figures. Unless 100% is 100 times 1% Or 1% is 1/100th of 100% Like with real math. then its the same but with more production and more cost.  ($12,000 instead of $120, with the rest being the same) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 30, 2015, 10:11 pm Last edited Dec 30, 2015, 10:11 pm by *StCrispin*

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 All I am pointing out is you factor in things that don't apply or have zero cost from a game POV. We are also talking about your camp production spreadsheet, not the town mechanic/marketplace. The main part of this discussion started because it took way too long to make. Cost really wasn't the issue, it was more of how fast I can fill my lockups with ammo. At least Sam addressed that by 6X which should be a good start for your clip pile. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Dec 30, 2015, 11:05 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 im talking about bringing the Economy in line with reality.  If it means We begin that process with an analysis of Ammunition Production, usinging Camps as a basis for an example of cost, then that's the place we start.  We have no hard Data from any other source, just conjecture. If an item made in town requires 2 items that cost $250 each in town, and then the Townie that made that item (in town) sells the end product for $60... that's technically an Exploit if you buy it ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 30, 2015, 11:12 pm Last edited Dec 30, 2015, 11:18 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: The main part of this discussion started because it took way too long to make. Cost really wasn't the issue, it was more of how fast I can fill my lockups with ammo. At least Sam addressed that by 6X which should be a good start for your clip pile. It seemed like a good start to me, until I got feedback on it that bordered on outrage.  So i decided to once again look at it. Personally I'd rather just haul it in since I can haul 3500 Bulk per run in my Pickups.  But I should probably just run Water from Elms to TX and Fuel back to SS for that massive money.  (1.3 million per round trip currently).  Then I could get a sponsorship and get one of those Production boosts you speak of.  But those just seem like Cheating to me. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 30, 2015, 11:35 pm

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 1st try @ ammo in Rapture's End 161 MR 52% factory activity 12 NPC workers 12.5% boost MM ammo, 1 every 5 hours, 7 CPs So every 5 days, 24 MM reloads will be manufactured, using a total 168 CPs. That's a lot of CPs to run through, and at that amount of consumption, I wonder if we should indeed count some cost of CPs in the equation. Crisp, you wanna run the numbers please? ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 1, 2016, 10:45 pm Last edited Jan 1, 2016, 10:56 pm by Krakhedd

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 *The X Man* said: *StCrispin* said: bear in mind that at 1% you are paying: (Per Week) $120 upkeep. $840 NPC Wages $450 Housing Upkeep (for 12 NPCs) $160 Food/Water (Cheap Northern estimate) NOT COUNTING CPs: Cost $1570 to make ALMOST 5 reloads. Camp Nape Reload at 1% costs: $314 (not counting $500 to $700 worth of parts) Town Nape Reload: $60 Somehow the NPCs are making a profit.  Or they are a buncha rubes Whether you make ammo or make nothing, you still have housing upkeep. So this doesn't apply. (Same could be argued about the factory or mech shops, but I will leave these two out for now) Whether you make ammo or make nothing, your mechs will still consume food and water. So this doesn't apply. Car Parts are FREE from loot broken down at camp, So this doesn't apply. I am sure recalculating your spreadsheet with these adjustments, your costs per clip will be much more in reality. Plus, I hope you subtract any production boosts your camp has. because that will skew production costs too. Also, run your factory at 100% so you get the most accurate figures. To say none of these things matters, is analogous to saying the "phantom townies" who make the goods, are eating and drinking "phantom food and water" and costs nothing; that the CPs also don't exist and cost nothing. The only way to examine if the ammo feature is out of whack, is to consider all the costs.  CPs, again, I understand leaving out, but after seeing how many ammo production takes, I wonder if it should be. Stop being afraid anybody is trying to get rich, X.  I, for one, am only trying to make the camp experience more fun and more fair, by using a feature that seems out-of-whack. Also, knowing the exact costs of everything, will help us to clarify ammo types that may be vulnerable to exploitative-level profiteering, and then we will be able to act upon a resolution. And the variance between 1% and 100% is great, yes, but, even at 10%, we are within 1% variance.  Factories don't need to be more than 20-25% to be extremely accurate. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 1, 2016, 11:06 pm Last edited Jan 1, 2016, 11:08 pm by Krakhedd

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 that's a lot of CPs. CP value alone (depending on how you place value on them...  I use an average which is "between $250 and $350" based on Evan Wide sell/buy values because if you DIDNT use those making ammo and you SOLD THEM INSTEAD, that's what they would be worth to you) is $42,000 to $58,800 ($2000 to $2450 per reload) 52% factory for 5/7 of a week: $4457 Food (5 days): $60 (based on Cheap Northern prices) Water (5 days): $60 (as above) (food and water counted because if you weren't producing anything at all and put your food in a Lorry the NPCs would NOT eat it...  Invalidating X Man's claim they would eat it anyway). Worker Pay (5 Days, Wiki Value): $600 Housing for 12 (5 days): $321 TOTAL COST Without CPs: $5498 With CPs: $53498 to $64298 Cost per Reload with 12.5% Boost: No CP: $229 each with CP: $2229 each to $2679 each Estimate without boost: (Assuming 12.5% boost means you make 12.5% more product) No CP: $262 With CP: $2548 each to $3062 Each Cost in town: $134 ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:10 am Last edited Jan 2, 2016, 1:02 am by *StCrispin*

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 *StCrispin* said: (food and water counted because if you weren't producing anything at all and put your food in a Lorry the NPCs would NOT eat it...  Invalidating X Man's claim they would eat it anyway). I am just curious, once you set the factory and you click on it, it tells you what it takes to produce that item. Example - A 5LV12 takes 40 CPs and 45 EPs to produce one engine. When you click on the ammo factory... please tell me how many CPs and exactly how many food and water it takes to produce one clip?? ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:23 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: *StCrispin* said: (food and water counted because if you weren't producing anything at all and put your food in a Lorry the NPCs would NOT eat it...  Invalidating X Man's claim they would eat it anyway). I am just curious, once you set the factory and you click on it, it tells you what it takes to produce that item. Example - A 5LV12 takes 40 CPs and 45 EPs to produce one engine. When you click on the ammo factory... please tell me how many CPs and exactly how many food and water it takes to produce one clip?? Depends on the Ammo you are making. Bear in mind I don't want to "search them all" as it costs $10,000 just to change what kind of ammo you are making and I don't feel like shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to build that database. That Said we so far know the following: Napalm ammo: 2CP HMG Ammo: 3CP MM Ammo: 7CP Food, Water and NPC wages are taken from the Wiki.  Which may or may not be accurate.  Unless *Sam* can provide this data I can only work off the what the Wiki Says at this point in time. What it says is: ---NPC Wages are $10 per day per NPC. (Factory has 12 NPC Workers, thus $840 a week) ---Food and Water requirement is 1 per 10 workers per day of each.  (1.2 each per day or 8.4 per week)  I rounded down to 8 per week. My personal feeling is that the Wiki is not correct about food water or wage requirements but I don't know how far off it is. Thus with the information given here, and basing it off MM ammo from what Krak was just mentioning above: 1 MM ammo (in a 54% factory with a 12.5% boost) uses 7 CP, 1/4th unit food, 1/4th unit water ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:45 am Last edited Jan 2, 2016, 12:57 am by *StCrispin*

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 *StCrispin* said: 1 MM ammo (in a 54% factory with a 12.5% boost) uses 7 CP, 1/4th unit food, 1/4th unit water So when you click on your MM ammo factory, it says takes 7 CPs, 0.25 units or water and 0.25 units of food??? ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:55 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 The food and water are nowhere near as easily obtainable for many camps as the CPs etc. Those are valid costs, no matter which way you try to twist it, sorry. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:01 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 We are examining each and every cost factor here, it's the only way to gain a good idea of total expense. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:06 am

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