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Ammo Production

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 *sam* said: An unplanned game balancing issue that needs to be fixed. And in the meantime is being exploited. Yep. That's precisely what an exploit is. I believe you told everybody to stop calling me an exploiter at the time.  Suggesting it wasn't viewed as an exploit at that time. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 6:31 pm

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 http://dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=22888 Page 20 *sam* said: @Everyone else: Please stop accusing Krakhedd of being an exploiter. I already said I considered this to be a balancing issue rather than an exploit. I am considering some tweaks to make it harder to truce your way around the map. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 8:00 pm

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 So, yes, at some point during the past 2 years, this went from being considered a "balancing issue" to an "exploit". So, again, I would ask to stop being referred to as an exploiter, or any inference made that I was. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 8:01 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: Apparently, you didn't read or understand what Sam said Crispin. Sam said the rep issue needed balancing. The risk free travel exploit, Sam said was always an exploit. Now that makes it accurate. So stop dry humping the dead horse here and please move along to your ammo production spreadsheet... that is what this thread is supposed to be about?? Its really just semantics. The issue itself (now being said was always an exploit) isn't the exploit.  the acting upon its weakness was.  That's why I said IN THE INTEREST OFF ACCURACY so that anyone not involved in that discussion 2 years ago (pre-steam) would understand the background in that the mechanics of the game itself wasn't the problem.  it was playing the game in a certain way that was. We have to make sure that if something seems too easy or that we feel like we are doing really well at the game after putting in months of effort and time and sweat and DW$, that maybe its not a point we were intended to reach.  and that capitalizing on our hard work might not be allowed (even if you email Sam after 2 marshals tell you its okay and ask for his input and he says he "thinks" its okay.  which I did.  however I never reached that level of accomplishment to do it for more than 3 days) right now we are simply casting a light on Tango, Boon, Myself, Necro, and Krak (and some other I cant remember for sure) and saying they are cheaters and knew better, which isn't totally accurate. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 10:21 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 oh...  Yeah I missed this post. So really then I guess we should simply ask people to do what *Sam* told people to do 2 years ago instead of what X is currently saying about us not understanding. So...  X... *sam* said: @Everyone else: Please stop accusing Krakhedd of being an exploiter. I already said I considered this to be a balancing issue rather than an exploit. I am considering some tweaks to make it harder to truce your way around the map. Maybe you can re-read that forum because *The X Man* said: Apparently, you didn't read or understand what Sam said because this seems pretty clear to me *sam* said: @Everyone else: Please stop accusing Krakhedd of being an exploiter. I already said I considered this to be a balancing issue rather than an exploit. I am considering some tweaks to make it harder to truce your way around the map. and to make sure *Sam* doesn't think im just ragging on him: SAM THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WORK YOU HAVE DONE ON THIS ISSUE OVER THE PAST 2 YEARS!  Maybe its fixed finally or maybe not.  Time will tell BUT WE APRECIATE IT! Just if people can stop calling us Exploiters and Cheaters please... (((((Next someone will say:  "If it needed fixed, and WAS TWEAKED to fix it, then when we discovered it Wasn't Fixed or just *Differently Able* then you should have reported it."))))) (((((then we will point out that we DID report it))))) (((((Then we will continue to argue back and forth))))) So, can we just drop the whole Tango, Krak, Necro, Boon and Crisp are cheaters lobby, IM and PM accusations and just let *Sam* see if the latest Fix works? ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 10:41 pm Last edited Dec 20, 2015, 11:23 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others) If it works for Car Chassis, Engines, Weapons and Tyres in those towns why wouldn't it work for Ammo? Then players making it and selling it would have a purpose. Not that they would sell CC ammo that cost them $1477 plus Materiels to make, at $115 to the NPC. it would be in the player market for a more realistic price. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 11:29 pm

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. I'm not sure limited ammo would go well for noobs especially. And seems it would weight things toward players with camps close to towns. Which would be great for me, but, not great for the larger community. Oops did I just make a rec based on the community first? I think I did. I wish everybody were so capable of objective thought ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 20, 2015, 11:42 pm

*Tango* 2ManyRads CI Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,543 Joined: Mar 21, 2010 *StCrispin* said: And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others)  Yeah, and while we're at it let's have to mine for the materials, smelt the shell casing metal, harvest your own saltpeter, mix your own gunpowder... etc. etc. etc. Realism can trump fun, if you let it. Imagine not being able to scout or compete in events because someone bought all the ammo to try and corner the market. At this point I'd say your suggestion reaches too far. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp5 pvp4 combat1 pvp3 zom community Posted Dec 21, 2015, 12:38 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *Tango* said: *StCrispin* said: And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others)  Yeah, and while we're at it let's have to mine for the materials, smelt the shell casing metal, harvest your own saltpeter, mix your own gunpowder... etc. etc. etc. Realism can trump fun, if you let it. Imagine not being able to scout or compete in events because someone bought all the ammo to try and corner the market. At this point I'd say your suggestion reaches too far. I think I suggested Mines...  wait we already have them... (scrap metal mining facility) and smelting...  wait we already do that (scrap metal mining facility) and mixing the gunpowder...  wait we already do that (Mech shop) I mean I think I suggested being able to forage for materiels such as...  the salt perter but that can also be extracted from metal mining facilities so it was redundant. I'd love foraging for lumber and fighting a scout that had been sent out to gather lumber for repairs to SS town walls as part of the town defense programming.  Like they had in PotBS with supplies for war fighting. Would open up a lot of new content for gameplay without there being a huge input of actual content ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 1:36 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *Tango* said: Imagine not being able to scout or compete in events because someone bought all the ammo to try and corner the market. At this point I'd say your suggestion reaches too far. I can imagine this really well. I play SCAV ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 1:39 am

*Awefense* Kings of Metal Autodueller Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 396 Joined: Sep 20, 2011 I think ammo should be handled in an entirely new way. Forget production. Shift ammo production and sales to the NPC's. Add a link under the Buildings tab on the Camp Map Page. Call it The Armory or Ammo Dump. Sell ammo there at inflated camp prices. NPC's should make more from camp sales than they do in town because they are now shipping it into camp. You still have the option of running your own. This system could be further fleshed out by limiting quantities of available npc ammo in camp. Maybe even have a base set of ammo available at every camp, your machine guns, car rifle, etc. Open more slots via chrome or $DW payments. Several interesting ideas in this thread. The only idea I do not like at all is Crispy's idea of limiting ammo in town. If I wanted to suffer in scav, I'd play scav. Awefense ......................... vet wv pvp4 marshal gwextrav Posted Dec 21, 2015, 5:13 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 Awefense said: I think ammo should be handled in an entirely new way. Forget production. Shift ammo production and sales to the NPC's. Add a link under the Buildings tab on the Camp Map Page. Call it The Armory or Ammo Dump. Sell ammo there at inflated camp prices. NPC's should make more from camp sales than they do in town because they are now shipping it into camp. You still have the option of running your own. This system could be further fleshed out by limiting quantities of available npc ammo in camp. Maybe even have a base set of ammo available at every camp, your machine guns, car rifle, etc. Open more slots via chrome or $DW payments. Several interesting ideas in this thread. The only idea I do not like at all is Crispy's idea of limiting ammo in town. If I wanted to suffer in scav, I'd play scav. Awefense A completely new way to go than what we have but that doesn't mean it's bad.  I wonder if it could be expanded to include the ability to hire NPCs on contract for scouts and travels?  As soon as they arrive in the next town or back to camp, their contract terminates. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 7:36 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Krakhedd said: Awefense said: I think ammo should be handled in an entirely new way. Forget production. Shift ammo production and sales to the NPC's. Add a link under the Buildings tab on the Camp Map Page. Call it The Armory or Ammo Dump. Sell ammo there at inflated camp prices. NPC's should make more from camp sales than they do in town because they are now shipping it into camp. You still have the option of running your own. This system could be further fleshed out by limiting quantities of available npc ammo in camp. Maybe even have a base set of ammo available at every camp, your machine guns, car rifle, etc. Open more slots via chrome or $DW payments. Several interesting ideas in this thread. The only idea I do not like at all is Crispy's idea of limiting ammo in town. If I wanted to suffer in scav, I'd play scav. Awefense A completely new way to go than what we have but that doesn't mean it's bad.  I wonder if it could be expanded to include the ability to hire NPCs on contract for scouts and travels?  As soon as they arrive in the next town or back to camp, their contract terminates. There is actually one reason that I really like the concept of mercenaries:  it might promote PvP. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 11:25 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Krakhedd said: I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. So would I! I'm not sure if it's feasible in DW1 though. But in DW2 for sure. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 11:27 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Ok, I have reduced the time required for manufacturing ammo, by a factor of 6. I don't recall the issue with people making RGM ammo and selling it to NPCs for a profit, but I don't think RGM ammo can be made at all now (presumably that change was made at the time?) Let me know how it seems now. - does it make ammo less ridiculous to manufacture? - without making it into a free way to print money? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 1:03 pm

Bolt Thrower Quantum Symphony Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 727 Joined: Sep 12, 2013 *sam* said: Krakhedd said: I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. So would I! I'm not sure if it's feasible in DW1 though. But in DW2 for sure. I would like an economy like more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXl32cTZ71A see 6:35 to 9:15 ......................... vet wv northernsummer1,92,1 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 4:13 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *sam* said: Krakhedd said: include the ability to hire NPCs on contract for scouts and travels?  As soon as they arrive in the next town or back to camp, their contract terminates. There is actually one reason that I really like the concept of mercenaries:  it might promote PvP. You mentioned during Steam release that this would (I think you used the word "likely" maybe?) be implemented as an item to spend Chrome on. I would defiantly spend chrome on it! ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 8:37 pm Last edited Dec 21, 2015, 8:41 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 a Factor of 6 seems a bit fast.  I'll crunch some numbers on it and see where it sits now but this means (using Krak's previous data) that CC ammo in a 100% factory would be produced in 3 hours?  Or 8 reloads a day... Not counting Materiels used in production of cost of Food and Water for workers, that makes a reload cost $237 comparative to cost from NPC of $126 equates to 88% markup or thereabouts depending on how you do your math.  ($111 more than town cost) Sounds fair to me considereing there are a couple costs not included in the calculations.  And certainly no profit to be made manufacturing it and selling it in town. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 21, 2015, 8:43 pm Last edited Dec 21, 2015, 9:29 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Testing now Underway. However theres yet another factor that seems illogical. Im testing in Camp David by making HMG ammo at 100% production rate. I wont consider the oddity of having to pay $160,000 just to start making the ammo which in itself makes it mostly pointless to make your own ammo in camp since that alone would buy 1,860 reloads What gets me is that it takes 3 Car parts. A CP varies in Value across Evan.  In SS its a bit over $400 each, GW is $330+ each, but overall even with price fluctuations and town differences its $250-$350 per CP So PARTS ALONE for making 1 HMG reload is $750 - $1050 to make a reload that would only be $86 in town. Not asking for a change, but Im thinking the discussion about rates may deserve further consideration after testing and the acquisition of more hard data. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Dec 22, 2015, 12:27 am

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 I intentionally neglected to include CP costs as I consider these to be easy to get in camps. Of course, then again, an elite to Crispy is a cross-trained 75-100 skill ganger; elite to me is in the 250 cross-trained range...and Bombed Luna Road is a very difficult map, I would say even more difficult and treacherous than Bridge Out in Badlands. Also....the NPC markets presumably include a retail mark-up. So, if a reload is $100 (to work w/ even numbers), and a 60-70% retail mark-up, we're looking at an actual cost of around $60 ($100 / 1.6 = $62.50; / 1.7 = $58.82). And we haven't even begun to look at large-bulk reloads, like TG especially and MM to a lesser extent. I'm afraid to even check production rates on them. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Dec 22, 2015, 2:29 am

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