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Ammo Production

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 this isn't about the camps.  this is about the NPC economy. Show me what the NPCs pay for their materiels, food, water and labor and then show me how they make a profit selling the items produced.  Where do the NPCs selling $86 HMG ammo that even in SF costs them 3x that for CPs to make it, buy their CPs? This is systemic to the game.  Not just Ammunition.  a close analysis of Weapons compared to town prices (varies by town however) will show similar inconsistences. Now go derail someone else's thread instead of chasing me around the forums trolling me. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 3, 2016, 2:21 am Last edited Jan 3, 2016, 2:22 am by *StCrispin*

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 *StCrispin* said: this isn't about the camps.  this is about the NPC economy. Show me what the NPCs pay for their materiels, food, water and labor and then show me how they make a profit selling the items produced.  Where do the NPCs selling $86 HMG ammo that even in SF costs them 3x that for CPs to make it, buy their CPs? This is systemic to the game.  Not just Ammunition.  a close analysis of Weapons compared to town prices (varies by town however) will show similar inconsistences. Now go derail someone else's thread instead of chasing me around the forums trolling me. The forum thread is titled "Ammo Production", not NPC Economy. Even krak's opening remarks, Krakhedd said: I'd like to open a discourse on camp ammo production. You turned it into an economic issue. The thread wasn't wasted. It did resolve some issues and got a tweak from Sam. Players like Splurs we see the benefit from it, so it did do some good. As far as your economic crusade, we all know its not perfect, we all know it needs adjusting, but we all know it most likely won't happen because, *sam* said: Krakhedd said: I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. So would I! I'm not sure if it's feasible in DW1 though. But in DW2 for sure. So Sam knows. There are always going to be hidden numbers to DW that you will never see or know how they work. Thats part of DW that creates game players and not spreadsheet workers. But if you really feel the need to discuss it further, I suggest creating a new thread about the economy and the issues you would like to resolve. Just remember what Sam said, major changes will most likely not happen, so don't get disappointed if it doesn't. So instead, enjoy the game for what it is. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 3, 2016, 3:09 am Last edited Jan 3, 2016, 3:11 am by *The X Man*

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 If the focus is on making this feature "more viable" without allowing it to become "ridiculously profitable", we already have made it an economic issue. But I'm not the one who had that problem or raised that point (and ergo created the "economics" debate we are having), and if we are using numbers from town without considering fuel or ammo or armor lost when moving these reloads to town, then there's no way a profit could be made. Why not have ammo production ramped up to that point? The point where it's still unprofitable to move the ammo to towns, but, camp owners receive maximum benefit? It's friggin' reloads, for crying out loud.....so that we can scout from camp more often and have more fun....which is what a game is supposed to be, fun!! ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 3, 2016, 5:05 am Last edited Jan 3, 2016, 5:06 am by Krakhedd

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 UPDATE: 100% factory, 12 workers, 172 MR, MM reloads 10 reloads per day, 70 CPs TGs I got to glance at briefly, after I'd re-tooled a 2nd factory but before weekly upkeeps, and it was 5 TG reloads for another factory @ 100% w/ 12 workers. However, it's easy to go through 4 TG reloads in a single event, with a single TG-bearing build, so, that's still not a lot. And MMs....I have had events where I went through 40 MM reloads. So 10 a day for a camp that's being actively scouted from, by multiple players, who also need reloads. Also, on the point of profiteering, and hopefully, a successful point to further raise production rates: If we raise production rates to reflect ONLY the camp expenses, that is, we exclude the fuel & armor repair costs (in general, the fixed & variable costs of logistics for the cargo), there is no way to earn a profit producing ammo and re-selling in towns. Said another way, even if every camp cost, right down to the food & water the NPCs consume, are considered for calculating the cost of making reloads in camps, there's still no way to make a profit, because we haven't provided any additional margin for fuel expenses, and armor repairs. So, to take that ammo to town to sale, would be a loss by default. Ergo, I would argue production rates of ammo should be raised to this threshhold, to maximize gameplay fun without while still maintaining the balance against profiteering that seems to be the only objection to increased rates. And, again, I don't want to make money off of selling ammo in towns. I want my camp members, many of whom are active scouters or otherwise scout-capable, to have as much fun as possible. And, one other thought - I'm not even able to provide 1 combat's worth of ammo for myself, much less anybody else, in a whole day's production in two factories. And I'm only digging into MMs and TGs, not even counting the CCs, HMGs, HGGs, NGs, etc, that for now still need to be hauled in or looted, much less the cost to change production to different ammo types. ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 10, 2016, 7:44 am Last edited Jan 10, 2016, 7:48 am by Krakhedd

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 It seems overkill to have to make ammo in factories. An alternate option: Maybe add a camp building which doesn't cost much upkeep (Fame obligation) or no upkeep, and have a MARKETPLACE you can build in camp. At this Marketplace you could buy ammo (or trade for it with CPs or food/water or scrap metal) or even trade FOR scrap or CP or whatever. Price dependent on your Merchant reputation or something. Worse rep, higher cost. Or have it be a different local faction each day, or limited in some way, or whatnot. This would tend to limit it to oversized camps with more room than they need but its an option. Right now even increasing production rates by x10 probably wouldn't compare to the value of just selling the CPs you had to burn to make the ammo. I burned 300 (worth $105,000 had I just sold them) in 3 days to make 100 HMG ammo worth $8,600. Then I ran out of CPs, which shut down the 5L shop, the BPU shop and the HRR shop. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 10, 2016, 10:30 pm

Ragnak Ragnaks Reavers Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: Jul 7, 2010 I don't believe anyone yet has figured the true cost of producing ammo at a camp yet. We always try to lump all of the camp upkeep costs as an expense to one factory producing something. People forget that many camps have multiple factories, they are getting free armor repair, equipment repair, etc. All of that needs to be factored. Finally, I have never known any camp who paid money for car parts. Most camps don't even give members who contribute car parts squat for them as they have huge backloads of the stuff in lorries. Trying to use town sale prices for these items just seems wrong to me. ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 11, 2016, 2:34 pm Last edited Jan 11, 2016, 2:34 pm by Ragnak

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Ragnak said: People forget that many camps have multiple factories, they are getting free armor repair, equipment repair, etc. All of that needs to be factored. Those factories costs are factored into the items THEY produce, and I think by *Free Repair* you mean Repairs that cost parts?  Its hard to determine the real *cost* of *Free* Repairs. Quote: Finally, I have never known any camp who paid money for car parts. Most camps don't even give members who contribute car parts squat for them as they have huge backloads of the stuff in lorries. You Obviously haven't been a member of any of my camps or the ones I manage. True I don't *buy* and haul 10 space CAR PARTS.  But I DO buy Light Rockets (3 CP for 4 bulk) and other Weapons as well as 1L, 1.2L 1.6L engines and take those to camp and scrap them.  (ever wonder why Texan and Sarsfield and sometimes Badlands has no weapons or small engines on the market?  Now you know)  Prices are similar between weapon cost and CP value but hauling a gun is less bulk (And at one point I was accused of exploiting for doing it).  However, Scrap and EP from these weapons is often a partial profit (if you bring them to town to sell) when doing this Yes after burning 300...  Well, 298.8 CPs making HMG ammo in my test run, I purchased PURCHASED $114,500 worth of weapons in TX to haul to camp to recoup the CPs I used.  Why?  Because MR 59 isn't high enough to allow a Scout Squad to operate with weapons or armor on their vehicles due to CR limitations.  So I couldn't even TRY to get *Free* (Parts that cost Ammo and Parts to replace whats broken getting them) Parts. Plus try to scout enough in 3 days to make 300 CPs in a camp with 54-65 MR and see how you fare.  It may be possible at 65 MR as you will be allowed to have enough CR in camp to run 2 squads back to back.  That's JUST to run the ammo factory, not the chassis, weapon or engine factory.  Scout more for those! ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 11, 2016, 8:59 pm Last edited Jan 11, 2016, 9:10 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 In the Example of the Texan Camp, lets look at some math. Lets make it a Word Problem: --- "Mutie lovin" Bubba Briskit finished eating a Triskit and wondered how he could recover the 300 CP the camp burned up in 3 days.  His Camp couldn't Scout for parts due to a low Mech Rating: 56.  So he had to rely on Pickups transporting CPs or Weapons from Texan.     His *Workhorse* Class A armored 3.2L PUs could haul 140 Bulk each.  The had to be refueled in camp (with fuel that it cost him about 78 cents to make, no big deal) but cost $10 when the truck got back to Texan.   He assumed the drivers were so skilled they could make the round trip with no damage at all.  He knew this was Pie in the Sky but WTF he figured.  His maths weren't good enough to figure out the average cost to repair when they got to TX since it changed trip to trip.     So his driver could bring him 35 Light rockets per trip (140 bulk / 4 bulk).  Each would produce 3 CP.  Normally Items had a + or - 50% chance to produce more or less CPs meaning it was really closer to 2-5, but 3 was most common output.  Each LR took 20 mech Points to break down. If the trucks need no repairs, How many LRs can Bubba break down?  How many CPs will he produce? Mech Rating:56 Mech Points: 1151 per day LR requires: 20 Mech Pts 1151/20=57.77 Bubba can roll 2 Pickups and supply enough LRs each day to max out his Mech Pts. He can break down (Assuming the trucks need no repairs): 57 LR per day This gives him 114 CP per day He needs 6 truck and 6 drivers to accomplish his goal in 3 days.  (to supply ONLY the HMG manufacturing facility) Cost of 171 LR: (Texan prices $174 each): $29,754 Value in town of HMG ammo made with 342 CP (114 reloads): $1204 Nope no profit there. (If this were SS, the cost for the LRs would be a little more than 5 times higher: $116, 964) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 11, 2016, 9:40 pm Last edited Jan 11, 2016, 9:45 pm by *StCrispin*

Ragnak Ragnaks Reavers Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: Jul 7, 2010 Guess my experience has been the opposite of yours whether it was a camp I managed or was a member of. At all of them, car parts had no value. Plug $0 in your equations above for car parts and the story is quite different (and much shorter). The only thing good thing about car parts is that you threw them on the trash pile as you needed in order to manage the bulk load at the camp. As to the 300 car parts in 3 days burn rate. Easily met even with a camp with 50 MR. I maintained El Dorado weekly fame drop (27 points) by scouting from camp with two combat groups whose CR was 600-700 each. Each group would typically scout twice a day for two days for a total of 4 runs. Each run would net me 2-4 cars each. Breaking down 8-16 cars, their weapons, and their engines gave me a huge excess of car parts for the camp. I would also supplement the camp with a BPU cargo of MML and RL for the needed EPs. At the end of the two days, I would have a lorry run back to SS with a load of car parts to bulk sell (240 units). 2 days scouting for 240 units was pretty easy to do. Are there any other camps struggling with car parts like StCrispin? If so, an opportunity might exist for CP truckers to work the camps. ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 12, 2016, 5:15 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Ragnak said: Are there any other camps struggling with car parts like StCrispin? If so, an opportunity might exist for CP truckers to work the camps. Probably not, but you can see the difference in the level fun when one uses a spreadsheet to play. Perhaps Ragnak, we should take up a collection. I will start by donating 100 CPs. Once we get a few more donations, we should help deliver it too. I just hate to see camps struggle with production. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 12, 2016, 6:23 pm Last edited Jan 12, 2016, 6:26 pm by *The X Man*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: Ragnak said: Are there any other camps struggling with car parts like StCrispin? If so, an opportunity might exist for CP truckers to work the camps. Probably not, but you can see the difference in the level fun when one uses a spreadsheet to play. Perhaps Ragnak, we should take up a collection. I will start by donating 100 CPs. Once we get a few more donations, we should help deliver it too. I just hate to see camps struggle with production. Yeah my camp is shut down again due to no parts. I do however wonder how you can break 100 CP worth of weapons in a day in a 50 MR camp when a 54 MR camp only gets 1151 Mech points.  Looking at the breakdown tables IN THE WIKI (Not a spreadsheet) the conversion rate for CPs to Mech points needed to break them is 1 for 10.  Pretty much all weapons fit this rate.  The IS the fact that you can potentially get a random increase in output of CPs of up to 50% but that is based on a random factor to simulate Mechanics doing well or messing up. At that conversion the expected CP output (if you don't have to repair your scout cars for even 1 point of damage) would mean a 54 MR camp could break 115 CP from weapons (if you jigsaw puzzled it to use all mech points perfectly) Not sure how many Mech points a 50 MR camp gets.  Wiki doesn't say.  Im guessing less than a 54 does.  Anyone have a solid figure?  Hard to know maximum potential CP output without on. Either way.  Its unlikely that a 50 MR camp can produce 100 CP from breakdowns in a day because even a 54 cant unless you can scout without sustaining more than a half dozen points in armor damage in a day ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 12, 2016, 11:33 pm Last edited Jan 12, 2016, 11:57 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 More Math: A MINT loot car, on average, would produce 6 CP for its weapons (potentially 9 with a random 50% boost) given an average car having a MMG+MG combo. Assuming 50% of your pull is +50% CP output then you would have 7-8 CP per car. Call it 8 for ease of calculation You said you scouted twice a day, and brought back 2-4 cars. Even if you brought in 4 cars, all in MINT condition. That's only 8 cars a day. 8 cars X 8 CP average = 64 CP per day. If all cars are in MINT condition. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 12, 2016, 11:45 pm

Bolt Thrower Quantum Symphony Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 727 Joined: Sep 12, 2013 *StCrispin* said: I do however wonder how you can break 100 CP worth of weapons in a day in a 50 MR camp when a 54 MR camp only gets 1151 Mech points. Not all 50 MR camps have the same amount of mech points.  Mech points are a function of total mech skill of listed mechs in camp.  MR is a function of %Activity of mech shops and the mech skill of listed mechs. ......................... vet wv northernsummer1,92,1 Posted Jan 12, 2016, 11:58 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Bolt Thrower said: *StCrispin* said: I do however wonder how you can break 100 CP worth of weapons in a day in a 50 MR camp when a 54 MR camp only gets 1151 Mech points. Not all 50 MR camps have the same amount of mech points.  Mech points are a function of total mech skill of listed mechs in camp.  MR is a function of %Activity of mech shops and the mech skill of listed mechs. Fair enough.  In my case all Mechs in camp are working in a 100% shop. Im assuming you are saying that Mechanics not working in a shop add to Mech Points?  Otherwise, if there are MORE mechs in the 50 MR camp than in the 54 MR camp, it would have an effect on MR and not just MP. Again, without hard numbers, Im theorizing.  I'd love to see the numbers on how this would work out.  8 loot cars a day somehow having enough mint weapons on them to produce 100 CP or more per day adds to my thoughts that maybe Rag didn't take everything into account. Bottom line though, even if producing Ammo took NO PARTS AT ALL, it would still be twice as costly to produce them in camp as to buy them.  making the use of a factory to produce them counter productive considering the $110,000 cost to convert it to Ammo, and then who knows how much more to switch it to something useful when you decide it isn't worth it. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jan 13, 2016, 12:07 am

Bolt Thrower Quantum Symphony Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 727 Joined: Sep 12, 2013 Yes, the mechs listed as occupying your mech shops add to mech points and CR totals for camp. So 8 shops means 32 mech contribute. MR is more complex and I haven't figured it out yet. ......................... vet wv northernsummer1,92,1 Posted Jan 13, 2016, 12:26 am

Ragnak Ragnaks Reavers Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: Jul 7, 2010 *StCrispin* said: More Math: A MINT loot car, on average, would produce 6 CP for its weapons (potentially 9 with a random 50% boost) given an average car having a MMG+MG combo. Assuming 50% of your pull is +50% CP output then you would have 7-8 CP per car.  Call it 8 for ease of calculation You said you scouted twice a day, and brought back 2-4 cars. Even if you brought in 4 cars, all in MINT condition.  That's only 8 cars a day. 8 cars X 8 CP average = 64 CP per day. If all cars are in MINT condition. Of course you have to factor in the half dozen extra weapons brought in from cars not salvaged, the car parts in the loot box, and the car parts from scrapped engines. Yes, your mech points will be all gone everyday breaking down stuff and I rarely have damage to fix. I also noted 2 combat groups scouting twice a day so you need to double all your numbers. ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 14, 2016, 6:47 am Last edited Jan 14, 2016, 6:48 am by Ragnak

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Is this really a 6 page thread on camp ammo production? WOW! I think I am gonna start one "Trump for President" and see if I can hit 500 pages... ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jan 14, 2016, 1:58 pm

DirkNotSoGently Holistic Detective Agency Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: Nov 11, 2011 *Longo* said: I think I am gonna start one "Trump for President" and see if I can hit 500 pages... Oh dear Dog! Quick! QUICK!!! Thread hijacker! Someone stop him! ......................... vet wv deathrce1 pvp5 pvp1 pvp2 circuit3 circuit2 Posted Jan 14, 2016, 2:26 pm

Krakhedd FAQ Crew Autodueller Morgan Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 351 Joined: Aug 19, 2012 I'm tilting more and more away from "ammo should be made in factories", to "ammo should be available in a camp NPC market, with limits, and higher prices based on range from home town". I'm really not getting much out of it, even with the increased production levels (which are still very low, relative to town costs and excluding CP costs but including camp expenses directly involved in production). Not to mention, the variable costs associated w/ hitting a higher MR, in order to make, say, MM ammo. Plus, the fact that two factories that were making stuff for people, are now making small quantities of ammo. It still makes a LOT more sense to have ammo I would love to see housing go away in favor of paying camp NPCs like $100 a day to work in factories too, and the lower the cumulative activity, the fewer workers are needed.....which would also be great since the number of available NPC workers is often significantly different from the number needed, either high or low....and why would I pay NPCs to just sit at my camp and literally do nothing other than consume food & water.... ......................... vet wv raceL1 pvp3 paintball9,2,9 Posted Jan 18, 2016, 2:38 am

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