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Ammo Production
Krakhedd
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I'd like to open a discourse on camp ammo production. There was a factory set at 1% to test ammo production, camp MR 125 and making CC ammo. It was around 1800 hours per reload, or, if the factory was at 100%, it would be 18 hours. For a single CC reload.

I believe the production time is simply 20% the speed of producing the weapon itself. But, 18 hours at a camp w/ a decent MR? And the factory would have to be 100%? Why bother even having ammo production available, especially considering it's easy to toast 30 CC rounds from a 2xCC vehicle in a single encounter, much less, an entire day (or 18 hours in this case)?

My issue is basically the lack of practicality in producing ammo. Production rates that low, make it extremely expensive and impractical.
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Posted Dec 6, 2015, 5:59 am
*StCrispin*
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so basically we have a factory, whose upkeep at 100% would cost 12,000 $DW per week, 12 NPCs to work it.  Those NPCs are paid $10 each per day (12x10x7= $840) and they live in a house that holds 20 and costs $750 a week (12/20th of 750 being $450) Plus they eat and drink.

Not even counting Food and water that places the cost of 1 week's production at $13,290 to make 9 reloads.

Or about $1477 per reload

And yet the cost in any town to BUY it is only $126

Yep that DOES seem a bit off kilter. 

(Kinda like how a MRP reload weighs more than twice as much as a fully loaded MRP itself)
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Posted Dec 6, 2015, 7:00 am Last edited Dec 6, 2015, 7:00 am by *StCrispin*
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I think even RGM ammo is not worth making at camp. Good post.
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Posted Dec 6, 2015, 10:44 pm
Krakhedd
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*StCrispin* said:
so basically we have a factory, whose upkeep at 100% would cost 12,000 $DW per week, 12 NPCs to work it.  Those NPCs are paid $10 each per day (12x10x7= $840) and they live in a house that holds 20 and costs $750 a week (12/20th of 750 being $450) Plus they eat and drink.

Not even counting Food and water that places the cost of 1 week's production at $13,290 to make 9 reloads.

Or about $1477 per reload

And yet the cost in any town to BUY it is only $126

Yep that DOES seem a bit off kilter. 

(Kinda like how a MRP reload weighs more than twice as much as a fully loaded MRP itself)


I would think that trimming out the overhead and retail margins, should yield around 70% reduction in costs relative to purchase in-town.  So, each CC should cost around $40 in this case

In keeping with that pricing, the production rate should be increased around 35 times ($1477/$40) to "make it right".
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Posted Dec 9, 2015, 8:51 pm
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I sent Sam the concerns on this topic. Once I get a response, I or Sam will post an update for further discussion.
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Posted Dec 9, 2015, 10:11 pm
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Joel Autobaun said:
I think even RGM ammo is not worth making at camp.  Good post.


That is exactly the point as to why it is as it is. At one time, camps could make tons of money making RGM ammo and selling it back at town.

I think there are smart choices and really bad choices for camp production. I don't think everything has to be reasonable and ammo might just be one of those things. It's easily available in town so just truck it in.
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vet wv

Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:00 pm
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Ragnak said:
That is exactly the point as to why it is as it is. At one time, camps could make tons of money making RGM ammo and selling it back at town.


I remember hearing something like this this from another player awhile back, but wasn't positive. I could definitely see the potential abuse of this. Making mega millions from short low risk travels from camp to a nearby town selling off ammo at over $2K per unit.

Thanks for your input Ragnak. Hopefully this answers the questions in this thread.
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Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:18 pm
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Looking at the ammo list, rocket rack ammo and RGM ammo are high dollar items. MRP is actually the best on dollar per bulk.

But these are all high ep items and could be brought in line by having high ep and high MR requirements, which would mitigate their profitability.

As it is, even if CC ammo production was sped up, I wouldn't use it because I blow through 6 reloads per scout ( I think ~48 cp?), which doesn't account for other ammo. That significantly impacts my salvage net recovery, and a lot of my scouts, everything goes boom and all I get is scrap.
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Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:52 pm Last edited Dec 10, 2015, 7:55 pm by Bolt Thrower
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Quote:
That is exactly the point as to why it is as it is. At one time, camps could make tons of money making RGM ammo and selling it back at town.


I can see a problem with this, however if we are looking at  a "real post apocolyptic world" where would the ammo come from? No-one is going to take days making a CC reload only to sell it for less than they can buy one from the shops from.

Yes it might need some tweaking, however it sounds yet again like someone doesn't like it that money is being made and has complained, so to fix that issue the whole ammo production line gets broken.
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vet wv marshal

Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:58 pm
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how much does it COST to make RGM ammo and what does it sell for?

It sounds like whoever complained about RGM ammo bringing riches may not have thought the entire equation through.

By comparison CC ammo NOT COUNTING materials needed in its production costs $1477 per reload and only sells back at $113 (and only costs $126 to buy)

one issue may be the high sellback to purchase price ratio. In the case of some things like cars, the sellback ratio is only about 30% of the purchase cost (possibly less I cant remember the figures exactly from back when I was running cars from SF to Elms for scrap)

So CARS are 20% to 30% of purchase cost and Ammo is 90% ?

A bit off kilter there
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Posted Dec 10, 2015, 8:39 pm
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yet another reason we need a dynamic economy where the game tracks population and production, supply and demand, cargo runs made by NPCs, town needs, etc...

Because the true measure of what ammo should sell for, should be based on supply and demand.

----How many NPC mechanics live in SS? It requires 12 to make 9 CC reloads a week.
----How much CC ammo is expended in a week?

Does SS have a population large enough to even make enough CC ammo for people that use it?

probably, SS would be more like the size of NYC if it were dynamically modeled after the economic output it creates
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Posted Dec 10, 2015, 8:56 pm
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then there is the glaring issue of NPC wages being $10 a day.  for CC ammo production this means WAGES ALONE are $840 a week.  for 9 reloads.

SS sells those 9 for $1134

So assuming they produce these magically out of thin air (no materials needed) and without tools or any kind of production facility or any kind of overhead costs, they are marking them up only 30%?

common practice in retail is a 250% to 500% markup.  and to buy items for reselling at 20% to 33% of their planned cost.  This is how cars and weapons are modeled in the game.  Why is Ammo an exception?

Shouldn't a $1477 (cost without calculating in the cost of Materials) sell back for $500 and cost at least $4000 to buy?

or is production costs and time a bit off kilter?
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Posted Dec 10, 2015, 9:07 pm Last edited Dec 10, 2015, 9:09 pm by *StCrispin*
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*The X Man* said:
Thanks for your input Ragnak. Hopefully this answers the questions in this thread.


That sounds like a kibosh is being put on reforming ammo production, without even considering the economic disparities?

If there's a problem with being able to earn too much cash hauling ammo to towns, then, the fix should not be that the ammo costs 10x as much in camp to make; that's a wee smidge disproportionate a reaction.  I would instead suggest that the ammos in question have their productivity adjusted to reflect a fairer valuation system.

If Sam doesn't want to crunch the numbers, Crispy has already started to, and I'm a math whiz, I'd be happy to calculate rates of production.

Also, I think ammos are limited by MR, so, RGM ammo could be completely taken out of the equation, so to speak.....easy peasy
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Posted Dec 12, 2015, 10:55 pm
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If that's the way ammo production is going then can it just get taken out of game completely? As there is no-one that I could imagine that would use it. A newb camp in SS will move small quantities in, and bigger camps down south have the gangers to fight their way through. Not to mention wasting a factory on a horribly long time to make ammo. Wen they can use the same factory to make lots better items.

I thought the whole MR idea of needing te same MR of the wpn to be built was painful enough, it might be hard to build a CC but wait, it's just as hard to make the shells for it too.

I would like to see at least some kind of tweak or else it is just another useless part if the game that no one uses.
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Posted Dec 13, 2015, 5:51 am
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I suggest placing an NPC merchant that sells ammo in each camp. Add a link to the Camp Map page.

Solves producing ammo. Solves selling produced ammo for profit. Solves hauling ammo into camp which is what this is all about, right?

Only bad I see is it makes the game a tick easier.

Awefense
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Posted Dec 13, 2015, 6:57 am
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I believe its about:

a-- Logic
b-- Moving an entire gang to a camp and being self supporting without a town
c-- Making Sense


Hauling Ammo into camp isn't much work. My travel Squads could haul in around 300 CC reloads at a time (I roll 11 PUs, 2 Estates, 2 Landys and 9 BPUs per run. roughly 3600 bulk). depending which camp, that could be as often as Daily.

*and no, not all in one squad, as that exceeds 20 cars and I rarely roll more than 6 in a travel squad due to time consumption. Plus only 1 scout per squad gets training! gotta train em all, Scout-eh-mon!
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Posted Dec 13, 2015, 9:22 am Last edited Dec 13, 2015, 9:25 am by *StCrispin*
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*BUMP*

Sam, X-Man

Have we heard any more about this?

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vet wv marshal

Posted Dec 16, 2015, 8:06 am
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Nope, nothing new at this time.
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Posted Dec 16, 2015, 9:35 am
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All the objections I've heard are easily overcome, and it is a component of the game that is massively whacked/otherwise grossly out of balance.

FWIW, I plan to make primarily TG and MM ammos, I burn through those like crazy (as do others), some NG, occasional HGG. Oh and CC. I have no designs on running ammo to town for profit; it's not my motivation. Self-sufficiency, is.
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Posted Dec 16, 2015, 9:43 am
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maybe there is a way to "tag" ammo produced at a camp so it can't be sold by NPC.?
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vet wv pvp2

Posted Dec 16, 2015, 3:29 pm
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