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Core Issues

Master TMO Trueblood Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: May 31, 2015 Master TMO said: I can't speak to camps - I didn't play long enough as a normal to ever get into one. I did have one idea though: a PvP ladder, like the Race, Combat and Deathrace.  Make the prizes significant, and for more than the top 3, so that there is a reason for the lower-down people to still fight.  I think the Ladder would have to detect the matches automatically, not use the current ladder challenge system. And if you really want to increase participation, make the prize item(s) something *not* obtainable in any other way.  Maybe a new weapon.  Not OP, but still usable.  Top 3 get the weapon, 3rd gets 1 clip, 2nd gets 2, 1st gets 3.  4th-5th gets 3 clips, 6-8 gets 2 clips, 9-11 gets 1 clip.  Or something along those lines. Another possible prize is extended ammo clips, that hold double the normal ammo load, and weigh x1.67. Just random ideas.  None of them come without significant coding I'm afraid. Problem with the ladder is if someone gets to the top of the ladder and turns off their PVP flag.  A couple of possible solutions: penalize their pts proportionate to how long it's off.  Assign a pt penalty for each time it's turned off.  Disallow it to be off at all for the top 5, and so on. ......................... vet wv gwextrav Posted Nov 7, 2015, 10:18 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 The Paranoid Tourist said: Have sponsorships go to the camp which had the most PvP victories over a time period.  2 birds : 1 stone. Then you AGAIN have all the sponsors going to the player with the most time invested into the game.  Its the same problem in a different set of cloths. Plus then the Uber skill gangs would be at an Irksom advantage to the gangs lacking skill (until someone griefed or executed all the skilled gangers in the world).  It would turn DW into a game about assassinating your fellow players and being a jerk. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Nov 7, 2015, 11:33 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 goat starer said: *sam* said: I think the pvp issue is actually more intractable than that. There is a simple fact: some people do not want to play the game with pvp forced on them. The reason varies from lack of guaranteed playtime in a session, to not wanting the stress of it -- and I believe that this is their decision and I need to respect that. It's not how I imagined the game and if I started it again perhaps I would be stricter on insisting on keeping pvp. But given the current player-base, I can't foist such a thing on them when many don't want it. Just shanty sam... Nobody expected shanty to be switched off This is one of the rare times I agree with the G-Man.  I doubt anyone wanted Shanty shut off. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Nov 7, 2015, 11:34 pm Last edited Nov 7, 2015, 11:34 pm by *StCrispin*

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 It's still on the "To Do" List. It hasn't been forgotten. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Nov 8, 2015, 12:03 am

JoniBoy Parents Association Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 154 Joined: Jun 25, 2013 *The X Man* said: Irrational A said: NotSure said: Example, camp membership automatically makes you PVP. Yikes. I think this is an absolutely horrible idea. It is actually a good idea. The huge benefits that players can get from joining a camp should have some risk associated with its memberships. As long as there is some form of balance it would be a good addition. Irrational A, its not horrible, but I do understand what you are saying. RISK is what makes players shy away from PVP. But being a camp member, a lot of what you risk in gear can be made and replenished. The only true risk is with your characters. But that is also why there is a resign/surrender option. When you really look at it, the actual player decides on how much risk to take. And as long as there are options available that minimize that risk, PVP isn't really as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It's kind of like tasting broccoli for the first time, you won't know what it is like till you try it. I don't think it's a bad Idea either, maybe camp membership is not a good example since quite a lot of new players that are not ready are camp members to repair stuff and bring parts/mechs in exchange of gear. The most rewarding activities such as camp ownership or the highest leagues of SCL, for example, could be restricted to PVP open players. Irrational A said: See this I can get behind. Better yet, Make PVP on 3 different levels. PVP Off, PVP Half, PVP Full Off, This is self explanatory. Half, Takes the ideas quoted here. Cars that resign cant be targeted, and in return, cannot fire on enemies themselves. Gear is returned, if both parties agree through some sort of menu mechanic at the start of the event, and as for the training, I cannot say if its more rewarding in PVP Events. I don't ever have my flags up. Full, Being the system we have now, And who lives and who dies is entirely based on how little of a sadist the guy who's winning decides to be. This could make more people voluntarily open PVP flag instead of being forced to. ......................... vet wv sssc circuit3 raceL1 circuit1 circuit2 combatL1 pvp3 pvp2 pvp5 pvp1 e2g deathrceL1 Posted Nov 8, 2015, 12:31 am

Bolt Thrower Quantum Symphony Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 727 Joined: Sep 12, 2013 *sam* said: I think the pvp issue is actually more intractable than that. There is a simple fact: some people do not want to play the game with pvp forced on them. The reason varies from lack of guaranteed playtime in a session, to not wanting the stress of it -- and I believe that this is their decision and I need to respect that. It's not how I imagined the game and if I started it again perhaps I would be stricter on insisting on keeping pvp. But given the current player-base, I can't foist such a thing on them when many don't want it. I can understand having SS, EL and GW having the PVP flag.  But past that, there should be no flag and PVP should be on .  There should be more risk involved for people who want the better equipment from the southern towns. For camps, I am a little more ambivalent about the flags.  Reading through the forums, it appeared there were some people who were continuously attacking specific camps just to be jerks.  Not sure if that was the case with Asgard, but the events from Anatomy of a Takedown made it seem like some people who were purposely causing problems got away with it after whining. Sam, you are the developer.  You should never have let whining gamers shape your vision or win the meta wars in the forums.  But, I think you should have had an alpha server or a test period for changes (with a rollback save point) so that bugs could be worked out and mechanics could be checked to see if they were working as intended without damaging anyone's (or everyone's) gangs.  With a test bed, it would have been harder for people to seize the meta and create kneejerk backlash. ......................... vet wv northernsummer1,92,1 Posted Nov 8, 2015, 2:47 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Nov 8, 2015, 5:26 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 core issues ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 8, 2015, 9:25 am

NotSure Dead Ferrets Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: Jan 20, 2015 I don't see the issue. ......................... vet wv Posted Nov 8, 2015, 11:51 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 That is because you are at the periphery. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 9, 2015, 1:01 am

*Maxxed* [v]@Xx3D []ut Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 961 Joined: May 20, 2010 Although i disagree with most of the suggested PvP changes in this thread I agree with the sentiment that an increase in PvP would do much to improve the game. My suggestion would be to reduce SCL5 to a NO SPEC environment (this would include driving and scouting) as quad spec multiple defensive driver specs is far from entry level PvP. I believe that this would entice many more players into the environment and shake off some of the reticence that newer players have about entering SCL. Possibly changing the prize to be more training and equipment orientated. Alternatively a different squad combat league without camp related rewards might be the go as the real SCL benefits are for camp owners who casn rank in multiple divisions. Possibly reducing SCL4 to skill cap of 70 if SCL5 was to become NO SPEC. A lot of the gearing in this game rewards players who can spend the equivalent amount of time as a full time job to the game. They can make sure they only enter league events with multiple players, ensure they are online when new stuff spawns, commit to multiple leaguies etc. I'm not suggesting that the high end players should be nerfed nor that the mountain to success should be made a lower gradient but a few changes that allow players who dont have uber gangers to win decent equipment and get some kind of edge on training by participating in genuine player vs player events would go a long way to levelling the playing field without devaluing the investment that some of the long tsnading vets have put into the game. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp5 pvp20,0,1 Posted Nov 10, 2015, 9:04 am

*Maxxed* [v]@Xx3D []ut Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 961 Joined: May 20, 2010 Also perhaps a handful of events like amateur night combats (but include deathracing, racing and handguns etc) that offer training bonuses and/or equipment that are capped to prevent domination by ubergangers would encourage lower end competitive PvP. After all the risk should relate to the reward.... ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp5 pvp20,0,1 Posted Nov 10, 2015, 9:07 am

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 PvP, What is it good for?  Looking back it's obvious really, theres never been anything to fight for or over so only someone really bored or someone with a grudge is going to bother. The Risk/Reward ratio of PvP in DW makes the lottery look like a good investment. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Nov 14, 2015, 5:17 pm Last edited Nov 14, 2015, 5:19 pm by FireFly

JoniBoy Parents Association Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 154 Joined: Jun 25, 2013 *Maxxed* said: My suggestion would be to reduce SCL5 to a NO SPEC environment (this would include driving and scouting) as quad spec multiple defensive driver specs is far from entry level PvP. I believe that this would entice many more players into the environment and shake off some of the reticence that newer players have about entering SCL. Possibly changing the prize to be more training and equipment orientated. Now that you speak about SCL, even if it deserves a whole different thread, I'll give my opinion. I have participated in 2 seasons only and I can tell that SCL 5 is by far the most exciting. Mainly because you get to fight 100% humans. Can anyone tell why are there NPC gangs in a PVP combat competition? They add absolutely nothing, everyone defeats them and the only score that changes between one fight to another (demo points) is completely random. Also helps some players to get the high leagues rewards without fighting a single human in the whole season. That makes absolutely no sense to me and destroys a good idea of a competition. Agree that SCL should be unspecced, my design would be something like this: SCL5  49cap SCL4  99cap SCL3  149cap SCL2  199cap SCL1  no cap (not so sure since i have never fought uncapped fights) Firefly said: The Risk/Reward ratio of PvP in DW makes the lottery look like a good investment. Completely agree ......................... vet wv sssc circuit3 raceL1 circuit1 circuit2 combatL1 pvp3 pvp2 pvp5 pvp1 e2g deathrceL1 Posted Nov 14, 2015, 5:44 pm

Alocalypse Advanced Race Labs Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: May 6, 2007 How much of the stuff I posted in this thread is still relevant? To encourage PvP you pretty much need to give up on permadeath and have some sort of very expensive cloning* mechanic so characters are as replaceable as equipment. I think enforcing honor rules is bull#### and is way less rewarding for everyone (less blue text!). Also I guess the camp "opening hours" mechanic I remember suggesting didn't work out well for PvP. Instead of that you could have resource nodes (wells, gold mines, scrap yards, tollbooths, factories etc.) around the world that need to be controlled (by scouting for PvP encounters with a squad at their location) for X amount of minutes/hours (varies by location) before they produce some resources that you can load into the squad. Make it really obvious when someone is trying to control the node and what type of vehicles they're using. But the problem for any economic incentives for PvP is that you need to have a good economic balance with more of an endgame to motivate players with or you end up with something weird instead. * or a straight up necromancy mechanic where you stitch together whatever corpses/body parts you can find after the dust settles into a new gang member with a mix of their skills/stats. This started out as a joke, but it would actually lead to some pretty cool (if gross) game mechanics if I think about it more... ......................... vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont Posted Jan 21, 2016, 5:04 pm

*Jagged Monkey* Bazooka Joes Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 594 Joined: Jul 13, 2010 I think we should stop accusing each other of cheating and using exploits. We should play together as gentleman and honor good sportsmanship. Any grudges we have can be settled in the arena with PvP. ......................... vet wv combatL1 semiprocombat marshal elmsautumn northernsummer0,1,0 Posted Jan 21, 2016, 8:24 pm

Tallus Fatalis Foedi Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: Aug 30, 2014 Permadeath is a question of levels of analysis: it's very very hard to get gangs to die.... Just the characters within them. We wouldn't be so broken up about our lost characters if there was a an option to buy new characters, perhaps even process to bid for the services of experienced characters. .... Or to bid for the services of other players characters (if you wanted to get into a different form of PVP. Here you could build in some cool balancing mechanisms where the loyalty of your characters diminished as the gang size increased relative to leadership. ......................... vet wv ped2 Posted Jan 21, 2016, 9:04 pm Last edited Jan 21, 2016, 9:04 pm by Tallus

Paul Simon Ceewolves Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 102 Joined: Jun 2, 2015 After playing a few months, here are the four reasons I don't get involved in PvP yet 1) losing gangers- considering how long it takes to get to skill level 50. I know I would be angry at losing it trying to fight another player 2) Cost- for me at least it has taken awhile until I have been able to maintain a fixed cash level. for newer players they don't have the resources to replace lost cars/gangers 3) Not knowing who you will be fighting. If it works out that I am fighting someone my skill level I would not mind losing, if I get someone who knocks me out in 5 minutes due to stated gangers/much better outfitted cars I going to be really pissed. 4) no real benefit. I have not found any benefit I would get by beating a Player, so why risk it. Possible solutions: 1) get double skill chances for PvP battles 2) using the SQL idea have players have to put cars in pools with different level of skill/CR so that at least you know you are going to be fighting more or lease on an even footing. 3) winning x amount of PvP points grants you access to a blackmarket shop that has rare items at big discounts 4) give chrome for participating and more for winning. ......................... vet wv pvp2 Posted Jan 21, 2016, 11:34 pm

Bolt Thrower Quantum Symphony Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 727 Joined: Sep 12, 2013 Alocalypse said: How much of the stuff I posted in this thread is still relevant? A lot of those points are still salient.  The lack of polish has never been an issue for me, but most of the other things have to some extent.  And as Firefly said earlier in this thread, PVP is pretty much a lose-lose option, especially in the wilderness.  The only places it sort of makes sense is in COE and maybe SCL if you have a decent camp.  Ped leagues are a bloodbath where you throw away gangers, but they usually have really good prizes.  Problem is, with permadeath, it is often hard to bother.  Some people have the time/focus to power grind good skills gains, but most people don't have time to devote 40hrs a week to a game.  It becomes easier once you have good gangers and gear, but still requires a huge time sink, and makes risking the ganger not worth the effort. I think one thing that nobody brings up for the lack of wilderness pvp is the static nature of the environment.  If southern towns could shift alignments (or other stuff?) based on pvp activity, there might be more incentive to fight.  Or if town defenders/attackers had a chance to get rare chassis and engines in defenses.  But there is little incentive as it is.  Attacking traders is the safest and most lucrative way to play this game. From your previous thread, I also agree with Ninesticks about the game needing a server reset. ......................... vet wv northernsummer1,92,1 Posted Jan 21, 2016, 11:53 pm Last edited Jan 21, 2016, 11:55 pm by Bolt Thrower

Bolt Thrower Quantum Symphony Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 727 Joined: Sep 12, 2013 Some other thoughts: DW Tactical could have been a really good tool to entice people into PVP, without the risk of losing stuff. Unfortunately, it seems most pro PVP people weren't interested in PVP just for fun to try and lure newbs in. Also unfortunate is that DW Tactical is a pain to set up. But a DW Tactical PVP league with minor prizes might have worked, because who cares if you get slaughtered. Scav was a good idea, but the break points for mech were to arbitrary. Mech should have followed some progression similar to camp MR and associated production. But getting rid of money and making everything a barter system would have made more sense. Even npc markets could have been converted to a barter system. Based on Bartles Taxonomy, the normal mode of this game really only caters to Achievers and Killers, but not in a way that meshes them together well. Also, given the lack of endgame (and small player base) these issues get amplified. ......................... vet wv northernsummer1,92,1 Posted Jan 22, 2016, 12:18 am

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