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League tiebreakers

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,781 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Just letting you know that I have just added a hidden 'tiebreak' random number to league entries, which is created when the entry is made. This means that anyone scoring identical points in a league will be sorted on this random number rather than (as it was previously) being sorted according to who entered the league first. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 10:23 am

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 Isn't the obvious and fairest way to sort by number of 1st places- 2nd places- 3rd places etc as in most real leagues? ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 2:46 pm

DirkNotSoGently Holistic Detective Agency Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: Nov 11, 2011 Obvious & fair - yes And very easy for a human mind to encompass & work out But you just try coding it! ......................... vet wv deathrce1 pvp5 pvp1 pvp2 circuit3 circuit2 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 3:13 pm

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 DirkNotSoGently said: Obvious & fair - yes And very easy for a human mind to encompass & work out But you just try coding it! OK- I take that point, and I don't know anything about coding. But, I do have a human mind (of sorts) and I would be more than happy to work out any tiebreakers and send the results to SAM or XMAN. After all, this being done 'properly' could be the difference between someone winning a Laser, or a Car Cannon (SS DR League running now) so such massive game changing scenarios really shouldn't come down to a hidden random. That goes for anything SAM and XMAN. One thing I unfortunately do have at the moment is lots of free time- so any human donkey work that you need doing- please ask me- I would love to help with anything I can. ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 3:55 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,605 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 *Brunwulf* said: so such massive game changing scenarios really shouldn't come down to a hidden random. Isn't most of this game 'hidden random' anyway? :-) To hit, for example, and recruiting... ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 5:17 pm

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 *jimmylogan* said: *Brunwulf* said: so such massive game changing scenarios really shouldn't come down to a hidden random. Isn't most of this game 'hidden random' anyway? :-) To hit, for example, and recruiting... Kind of- but they are variables- I just think something so easy to properly work out like a league tiebreaker shouldn't be left to a dice roll ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 5:24 pm Last edited Jun 25, 2015, 5:25 pm by *Brunwulf*

DirkNotSoGently Holistic Detective Agency Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: Nov 11, 2011 I kind of agree on the point that something as important as a league winner shouldn't be random However that's way better than being based on who registered first - so at least what's on offer here is an improvement ......................... vet wv deathrce1 pvp5 pvp1 pvp2 circuit3 circuit2 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 5:28 pm

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 DirkNotSoGently said: I kind of agree on the point that something as important as a league winner shouldn't be random However that's way better than being based on who registered first - so at least what's on offer here is an improvement Even who scored first is a better option? Or who was ahead after week 1 even? ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 5:35 pm

DirkNotSoGently Holistic Detective Agency Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: Nov 11, 2011 *Brunwulf* said: DirkNotSoGently said: I kind of agree on the point that something as important as a league winner shouldn't be random However that's way better than being based on who registered first - so at least what's on offer here is an improvement Even who scored first is a better option? Or who was ahead after week 1 even? Again we're back to realities of computer systems - instead of making the decision based on just information available at the end of the league, those options would require that information to be stored for every entrant throughout the whole contest for reference in case of a tie-break Adding new data storage like that can be non-trivial ......................... vet wv deathrce1 pvp5 pvp1 pvp2 circuit3 circuit2 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 5:46 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,215 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 *Brunwulf* said: OK- I take that point, and I don't know anything about coding. But, I do have a human mind (of sorts) and I would be more than happy to work out any tiebreakers and send the results to SAM or XMAN. I don't know a whole lot about coding myself. But I do get a better understanding of it with each meeting. Also, time needed to do some of these changes may outweigh any of its proposed benefits. Dirk said: Obvious & fair - yes And very easy for a human mind to encompass & work out But you just try coding it! Exactly *Brunwulf* said: After all, this being done 'properly' could be the difference between someone winning a Laser, or a Car Cannon (SS DR League running now) so such massive game changing scenarios really shouldn't come down to a hidden random. True, but it is a change that evens out any players chance and gives any player a fair shot at a prize or league title/badge. The old tiebreaker, IMO, was bad. Did it need to be changed, Yes. Was the change the best possible solution, No. But it is much better than what was currently used. The goal was to have a tiebreaker as fair as possible, especially to new players. All the vets know when signups are and that gave them an advantage before the league ever started its first race. *Brunwulf* said: That goes for anything SAM and XMAN. One thing I unfortunately do have at the moment is lots of free time- so any human donkey work that you need doing- please ask me- I would love to help with anything I can. Brun, I appreciate the fact you want to help. But there is no way, realistically, you could maintain constant up to date stats. You do remember me constantly prodding you for results of the 99 Open?? That was 2 races a week. We are talking about hundreds of weekly races with dozens and dozens of players and NPCs to research and calculate. Leave that headache where it is. Remember, tiebreakers are not always needed in these leagues, but they do occur. Since players cannot pre-calculate their final positions, this just may bring out some more competitive racing among the players. Maybe even some ruthless tactics during a race.... and thats where the fun will be! ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 5:48 pm

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 I think I didn't explain myself properly. I wasn't offering to keep upto date with every race of every day. I was simply suggesting that it is coded that when 2 or more players tie for a prize winning league position- top 3 only. No prizes are awarded. Then I could just simply look through each of the tied players results, and award points for each finish: 10 for win, 9 for second, 8 for 3rd etc. Most points wins the tiebreaker. Easy. 15 mins work. Gotta be better than a random dice roll or whatever, And would be needed what? 3 times a season max? Oh well- At least I offered to help- anything you need XMAN- just ask. Much love all, Brun. ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 6:44 pm Last edited Jun 25, 2015, 6:45 pm by *Brunwulf*

*Bigspenner* Brassicas Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 546 Joined: Sep 17, 2008 My logic says it should be based one of two ways, count back ie who was leading after the penultimate event and so forth back through the league or even better it should default to me even if I haven't entered that league. ......................... vet wv combatL1 deathrceL1 paintladder slay2013 pvp4 gwextrav pvp3 marshal pvp2 pvp1 pvp5 paintball e2g Posted Jun 25, 2015, 7:04 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,215 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 Like I mentioned Brun, It's not the best fix, but it was the easiest to do and better than what was in place. This may not even come into effect anytime this season, meaning ties for prizes or titles may not even happen. Yes, Brun, we do appreciate you and your offer to help. Just ride this wave out and see what really happens at the end before yelling the sky is falling Main focus now is working on the intercept fails. I have compiled data over the past month for Sam to review to determine the error. The same to be said for fixing second spawns during an encounter. Hopefully these won't take too long to resolve. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 7:26 pm

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING!!!! Oh no. My mistake- it was just XMAN being all god-like again! Just kidding XMAN I agree- far more important is fixing intercepts- as half the players in the game are itching for this to be sorted soon- and we all know why! ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 7:37 pm

PA Racers PA Racers Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 1,008 Joined: Feb 11, 2010 Why not settle a tie with a race to break the tie? ......................... vet wv ww northernsummer gwextrav gateautumn raceL1 race1 elmsautumn deathrceL1 e2g santa1 paintladder paintball pvp1 pvp4 pvp3 deathrce1 pvp2 combat1 circuit2 circuit3 circuit1 pvp528,161,23 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 7:52 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,215 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 That would be a good way PA, but you would win all the tie breaker races I think what is being overlooked here is that players wont be playing for the "Tie" score knowing they will win anyways. Instead, they will race to win outright to take the tiebreaker out of the equation. There will be more competitive racing, especially in the PVP oriented leagues. Meaning, a little more scratched paint and a few more bullet holes to match. As a result, you will see an increase in DNFs and more outright winners. ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 8:29 pm

*Brunwulf* Wulf Guard Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,299 Joined: May 17, 2012 *The X Man* said: That would be a good way PA, but you would win all the tie breaker races  I think what is being overlooked here is that players wont be playing for the "Tie" score knowing they will win anyways. Instead, they will race to win outright to take the tiebreaker out of the equation. There will be more competitive racing, especially in the PVP oriented leagues. Meaning, a little more scratched paint and a few more bullet holes to match. As a result, you will see an increase in DNFs and more outright winners. I dont think anyone has ever played for the Tie score anyway. Everyone plays to win- and in each event I don't believe any players are thinking about what happens in a tie. PA would probably win a Tie race off most of the time- but surely thats only even more of an argument for a better way of sorting than a random thingy- it means we all know that a Tie isn't enough- it would need to be backed up in a 1 on 1 event with whoever has matched ourselves throughout the league. And The elite players are certainly not guaranteed anything anyway. I have seen PA, Joel, Snipe- all beaten by lesser players in various events. OK- not often- but there is always that chance- far better than deciding any major results with random, unseen dice rolls surely? ......................... vet ww wv e2g gwextrav sssc northernsummer gateautumn deathrce1 marshal race1 raceL1 combat1 pvp5 pvp4 pvp3 pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 25, 2015, 9:07 pm

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 I agree, there should be a tie breaking event. Make the winner actually win. I still think there should be - for a lack of better term - a Thunderdome, where there are ranked fights. Let there be a "Best of Evan" , give the older players something to fight over that does not involve getting newer players in the middle of it (unless they wanted to, of course). Have a ranking system - somewhat like the ladders. The top guy has to defend so many times a week to keep it. I wouldn't say to make them all to the death - but I think the option should surely be there. Not to de-rail anything. ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Jun 26, 2015, 4:13 am

Lord Foul .-^-HellRazors-^. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Rules Council Posts: 3,543 Joined: Jan 12, 2008 Agree, silly code change. This would have been done years ago if was even a "slightly" better option. I've said and suggested it many times in the past, use the nascar method. It can't be that hard to code a simple check. I keep shaking my head even more at what I see and don't see every month in this game now. ......................... vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball55,205,126 Posted Jun 26, 2015, 5:00 am

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,215 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 I like these discussions with Brun. They remind me of the movie Rush Hour when Chris Tucker asks Jackie Chan, "Do you even understand the words that are coming out of my mouth!?!" ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jun 26, 2015, 5:06 am

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