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Premium training centres
Iron Wraith
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Or why not get rid of all the complex under the bonnet stuff and make training a formally stated mechanism.

Pay x for training and you will gain x% of the characters cap per week (that can still be a power function to slow down training as the cap is approached).  Abandon training form as an unnecessary complication.  Use of a training centre multiplies that % by a stated amount.  Ditto motivator and all the other dohickies.

Then everyone could sit down with a calculator and make their choices accordingly.  With some work you may be able to work out your cap but I don't see this as a significant issue as well informed number cruncher can do that at the moment (by identifying where the training starts to drop off for example).

I don't see the obfuscation adding any play value and removing it means it is an informed player decision what they want to do.

Anything that costs real money (and CHR is real money)should have a well defined effect.
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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:26 am
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Iron Wraith said:
I don't see the obfuscation adding any play value and removing it means it is an informed player decision what they want to do.


Respectfully I disagree. The opaque nature of DW is one of the most appealing things about it (to me). Knowing what the mechanics are that underlie a game means the player base works out the optimum strategy - then very quickly everybody adopts that strategy. Players will naturally look for the optimum strategy, it's part of how most people approach games.

We already home some aspects of this in the game, but currently it's done by observation and experimentation - and done through this methodology it's fun. This is the play value that the opaqueness of the rules in DW add - fun. 

Iron Wraith said:
Anything that costs real money (and CHR is real money)should have a well defined effect.


Why?

K
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 10:22 am
Iron Wraith
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If I don't know the mechanism by which it may not have an effect, then I am not going to bother as it may never work. If I am not spending CHR on training then I am not buying as much CHR from Sam.

I am not sure how many players that are currently in the lobby agree with you and will be happy to watch ganger after ganger and car after car go down the toilet for months until they work out from first principles how to keep gangers alive. It's a car combat game, not maths homework.

I suspect we will lose hundreds of players that frankly can do without that grind. Most people I introduced to the game who gave up cited hat it was too hard to progress. I don't want to go back to having only 7 people in the Lobby.

If you wish to remain in the dark and learn it from experience or at your grammers knee, you don't have to read the information.
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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 11:16 am
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Why not just let Non-premium player's get the free training as well? That should give them some indication of their gangers training form.

edit: Besides there are a few skills not trainable in feild(first-aid, cycle,psi), think its only fair they can train those skills somehow too.
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 5:52 pm Last edited Sep 7, 2014, 5:56 pm by PA Racers
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I believe if a player wants the benefits, then they have switch to premium. Otherwise the lines really start getting blurred and the valuation of having a premium account seriously declines.

PA Racers said:
Why not just let Non-premium player's get the free training as well? That should give them some indication of their gangers training form.

edit: Besides there are a few skills not trainable in feild(first-aid, cycle,psi), think its only fair they can train those skills somehow too.
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 6:02 pm Last edited Sep 7, 2014, 6:03 pm by Necrotech
Iron Wraith
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Premium players can travel outside Southern Traingle, have no cap on vehicles and can have a number of gangers depending on their leadership rather than the flat 15 non-premium.

Pretty clear delineation to me ;)

Then again I wasn't arguing for free training for non-premium
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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 6:17 pm
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My understanding of free training is what we get now in any town without a training center. So what 0-2 points a week? Hardly a detemining factor to decide to stay a Non-premium player.
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 6:18 pm
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Iron Wraith said:
If I don't know the mechanism by which it may not have an effect, then I am not going to bother as it may never work.  If I am not spending CHR on training then I am not buying as much CHR from Sam.


Okay, that's fair enough, you're not a risk taker. I would however, highlight, that many other people are happy with an element of risk within the game and the choices that they make. Currently you're playing for free, so odd's are you're going to be careful with the Chrome you're spending, which is understandable. I'd imagine most new players who are free-players and have some Chrome are probably focusing on using their chrome for vehicle and equipment purchases.

Iron Wraith said:

I am not sure how many players that are currently in the lobby agree with you and will be happy to watch ganger after ganger and car after car go down the toilet for months until they work out from first principles how to keep gangers alive.  It's a car combat game, not maths homework.


Well this is going to happen no matter if they are getting a set training amount or if there is variation in weekly training. It not being maths homework was exactly my point - set training makes it a straight equation of "I wait for X numbers of weeks and my ganger will get X specialism" - as opposed to exploring the various forms of game play to work out how they get the best benefit. As it is the skill gains from doing stuff (events/scouting) is already better than weekly training gains so I'm not quite getting your point here. 

Iron Wraith said:

I suspect we will lose hundreds of players that frankly can do without that grind.  Most people I introduced to the game who gave up cited hat it was too hard to progress.  I don't want to go back to having only 7 people in the Lobby.

If you wish to remain in the dark and learn it from experience or at your grammers knee, you don't have to read the information.


This is a somewhat hyperbolic claim in my opinion, as exposing the bones of the game won't remove the requirement to "grind" (also known as "playing") - what it will do is minimise the variation within the game (as we go for optimum strategies) and disincentive people exploring the different elements of the game for fear of the risk involved. If you aren't aware of the relative risk of an activity then the only way to make a judgement is to take the plunge and experience it - and, shock horror, you may find that the fun outweighs the risk involved. Dark-Winds should be about the fun of playing, not worrying about the risk ratio in relation to various game elements for the sake of advancement.

K
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 7:12 pm
Iron Wraith
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There is a difference between calculated risk and gambling when you don't know the odds.

My point about training is that if you know you can train some-one to a level of competence in a known period of time, then if you are having a bad month, you know you can turn it around by biding your time. If you see that ganger you spent three weeks grinding to get to his first specialism wiped out in a random game related incident about which you have no control, and you know your only option is to start again, you may well "Rage-quit".

And by Grinding I mean having to spin out wilderness encounters to over 200 turns to get a single point of driver skill, take extra magazines into semi-pro death-races just to fire into the air to get +1 gunner skill.

If you have nothing to do all day, I am sure it is possible to advance quite quickly, if you are limited to a few hours a day, maybe a few times a week, you need some other mechanism than just doing the do endlessly.

My time is limited. I pay someone to clean my windows so I can spend the time saved to do other things, I am happy to pay Sam to get my gangers to a point that I can let them play outside in the garden where the real fun is.



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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 7:58 pm
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Iron Wraith said:
My time is limited.  I pay someone to clean my windows so I can spend the time saved to do other things, I am happy to pay Sam to get my gangers to a point that I can let them play outside in the garden where the real fun is.


I totally get that - I just don't get why you need explicit mechanical explanations to justify you getting the benefit of expenditure. As it is we've already had people highlighting that they can get between 5-8 point of training a week from the options which have previously been provided. Certainly the Chrome option will at least be matching that, which certainly beats any free training that people can currently get.

For the record I would be totally opposed to the removal of the training form idea - but that's just me. I think we're arguing with each other from diametrically opposed points of view about what is enjoyable, which means there is no convincing either of us to change our positions. I'll leave it here, though if you wanted to continue discussing this between us feel free to PM me!

K
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:10 pm
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What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:32 pm
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Iron Wraith said:
If you see that ganger you spent three weeks grinding to get to his first specialism wiped out in a random game related incident about which you have no control, and you know your only option is to start again, you may well "Rage-quit".


Random as in lightning comes out of the sky and strikes him dead for no reason at all?

or Random as in the Player makes a bad decision and bullets fly into the breach and gut him?

Also it takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to get a specialism.  Its more like a month and a half in most cases (more if you are an F2P member)

Iron Wraith said:
And by Grinding I mean having to spin out wilderness encounters to over 200 turns to get a single point of driver skill.


Or just don't, and get 2 points.  You can get driver skill much easier by ending the travel as fast as you can, then launching another as soon as possible, since distance traveled between towns counts for more than the actual in-event skill gains.  I get 2 to 3 for driving Sars to BL with 5 truces.
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:49 pm
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*K1500* said:
Iron Wraith said:
My time is limited.  I pay someone to clean my windows so I can spend the time saved to do other things, I am happy to pay Sam to get my gangers to a point that I can let them play outside in the garden where the real fun is.


I totally get that - I just don't get why you need explicit mechanical explanations to justify you getting the benefit of expenditure. As it is we've already had people highlighting that they can get between 5-8 point of training a week from the options which have previously been provided. Certainly the Chrome option will at least be matching that, which certainly beats any free training that people can currently get.

For the record I would be totally opposed to the removal of the training form idea - but that's just me. I think we're arguing with each other from diametrically opposed points of view about what is enjoyable, which means there is no convincing either of us to change our positions. I'll leave it here, though if you wanted to continue discussing this between us feel free to PM me!

K


K, used to be able to get 5-8 in a town using training center for skill the town specialized in.  I think Sam has made some changes which make that less likely to happen.  I also think he has flattened some modifiers, so my guess right now would be 6 is about max.
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vet wv northernsummer1,111,2

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:55 pm
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Bolt Thrower said:
K, used to be able to get 5-8 in a town using training center for skill the town specialized in.  I think Sam has made some changes which make that less likely to happen.  I also think he has flattened some modifiers, so my guess right now would be 6 is about max.


Well either way it's pretty irrelevant, in realtion to the point which I was making, if it's still significantly more than what you get for free training. But that's good to know either way.

K
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 10:56 pm
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"Also it takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to get a specialism. Its more like a month and a half in most cases"

That depends on how much you're willing to put them through....There was a newly hired gal that I got up to 49 (She started at 20, I think I was training her for a Slay Ride or something, because I remember I couldn't let her go over 49) rather quickly by relentlessly scouting her. I ran her in my squadcar as a gunner on the GG and in morays as a gunner on a GG. As soon as she arrived in town, she got into whatever vehicle was repaired and she was out again.

I don't remember the exact time it took, but it wasn't anywhere near 3 weeks.
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Posted Sep 8, 2014, 12:21 am
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Personally, I liked the training form bit, added a bit of random realism to it.

Please keep that portion.

Most numbers should *NOT* hanging out in the open.

I like the personal "Hidden" factors myself, like a puzzle to unravel... but more importantly keeps the stat mongering down.
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Posted Sep 8, 2014, 2:08 am
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"Most numbers should *NOT* hanging out in the open.

I like the personal "Hidden" factors myself, like a puzzle to unravel... but more importantly keeps the stat mongering down."


THAT!




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Posted Sep 8, 2014, 7:55 am Last edited Sep 8, 2014, 8:08 am by *Rev. V*
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*StCrispin* said:
What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay


Nice ideas here. I had some plans along these lines originally, but never fleshed them out much.
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Posted Sep 8, 2014, 11:51 am
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*Rev. V* said:

"Most numbers should *NOT* hanging out in the open.

I like the personal "Hidden" factors myself, like a puzzle to unravel... but more importantly keeps the stat mongering down."


THAT!







This is one of the core ideas in the game, of course. If you know all the stats then you can 'play by spreadsheet' and the perfect designs are worked out and everyone uses them. Having to experiment and observe and discuss is not only more fun, but it leads to opinions rather than facts, and creates a whole social level that would be missed otherwise.
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Posted Sep 8, 2014, 1:24 pm
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*StCrispin* said:
What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay


Good stuff here
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Posted Sep 8, 2014, 3:38 pm Last edited Sep 8, 2014, 3:39 pm by Crazy AL
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