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Premium training centres
*sam*
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Lord Foul said:

Unfortunately no, I'd guess he wanted to get this implemented asap after the Steam launch.


I have discussed it with a number of people, yes - including game developers who know a lot about this monetization model. But not the rules council (who, to be fair, have not been voted on for several years).


Lord Foul said:

We're missing some bonuses depending on your gang and location.

1 - Motivater

2 - Better Town training bonus for certain skills, briefly mentioned.

3 - Veteran gang character training bonus for younger characters.

4 - League skill bonuses from sponsors

(mentioned bonuses)

5 - Town training center - $500

6 - Chrome bonus - 5 or 10


So I could potentially have 6 bonuses if I'm willing to spend Chrome. What I want to know is, if a character is capped at 5 in training per week for weapon skills with 5 of the bonuses in effect, what will spending Chrome (6th bonus) do to aid this character get more/better training?

Since we can't break the cap of 5 or 8, how will spending chrome(real money) make it better?



I missed out a few of the factors, yes. There is no per-week cap though, and never was - I'm not sure where you got that idea from?  It's very simple really, all bonuses are multipliers on each other.


Lord Foul said:
If a character has "bad" training form and with 5 of the bonuses applied still only gets 1 point that week, how will spending chrome change the characters training that week? Since Chrome is not "modifying" training form, a player could be spending real money and see no change in the characters training if they have bad training form.


It's the same, poor training form is simply a multiplier of 0.8 or whatever. So yes, you'll get a lesser effect from the Chrome.

Skills are stored as fractional points, by the way, even though you're shown them rounded off. So there's no such thing as a wasted training factor, for example if you're seeing 1 point per week and multiplying it by 1.3

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marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay20130,1,0

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:14 am
*sam*
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*Boonwolf* said:
Real question is

Do you want to be spending 400-500 CHR for 2x skilling over DW$  as a sub it's tempting to boost skill gains but we can scout down south and see massive gains to skills that non subs can't get.

On a hot week I have been able to pick up 10-20 on all gunnery and have raked in 50 mech skill at the same time.


+1

It's entirely optional. It seems to me that a sensible way to spend Chrome on training would be to carefully watch your gangers to see who's in good training form, make sure they're in the right town, with all the bonuses lined up that you can manage, and then spend Chrome on just them.. not your whole gang.

But at the same time, if people want to spend more, then they can. This is the whole point of the free-to-play model: let people spend as little (even zero) or as much as they want. "One price fits all" is an anachronism in the modern digital economy - it makes sense when per-unit shelf-space and manufacturing costs exist, but makes little sense when the marginal cost is essentially zero.
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marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay20130,1,0

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:18 am Last edited Sep 6, 2014, 8:19 am by *sam*
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goat starer said:
always remember that the wiki is written by the same people you dont believe when they write stuff here... its a wiki...


I have just checked that wiki page, and yes there are errors on it, although most of it is pretty good. In particular, it suggests that there is some kind of hard-cap on weekly training points.

The Math section actually looks pretty close to how it *used* to be - I must have leaked it at some point (when under pressure from LF, perhaps? ;-)) - but it's no longer correct since training form has been dampened down and always stays closer to 1.0 now.
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marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay20130,1,0

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:28 am
*sam*
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*The X Man* said:
Another training question Sam. Will accelerated rehab training be included? If so, will the amounts be the same or cost more since it is technically a medical facility? Just IMO, it should be included because it IS something we select and choose to train in and pay for.


At the moment, Rehab remains unaffected. It's still $300/week and can't be changed in terms of effectiveness.
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marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay20130,1,0

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:43 am
Iron Wraith
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So, if they are all multipliers, since I get no training as a non-premium, 0 x however much I choose to spend on Chrome is still zero.

Or are non-premium gangs to start getting a minimal training modifier without cost?

Or is the chrome modifier a replacement of the premium $DW 500 multiplier?

I still see the biggest single turn-off for a new player is no significant advancement early on.

I know when I started I realised I didn't want to risk my skill 20 gangers outside. It took weeks of intensive playing town events and group scouts to get anyone up to nickname level. I lost a significant proportion of the candidates (both as a percentage of the number of candidates and as a percentage of the candidates themselves -arms, eyes and legs missing) before I got anyone up there.

Once you have a skill 200 ganger it isn't so hard to keep them, but keeping a skill <40 ganger alive long enough to make them useful takes too much grinding. Allowing a boost to early training (or hiring better gangers to start with) would alleviate this issue.

I am an addict, but normal people need to see their gang improving in the short term if they are to stick with something (That is why play-to-win is so popular). Improve the learning curve in the early stages and the rest should take care of itself.
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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:57 am Last edited Sep 6, 2014, 8:58 am by Iron Wraith
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Iron Wraith said:
So, if they are all multipliers, since I get no training as a non-premium, 0 x however much I choose to spend on Chrome is still zero.

Or are non-premium gangs to start getting a minimal training modifier without cost?


Non-premium players cannot use free or DW$500/week options, however they get full use of the CHR5 and CHR10 options.. this is explained on the Training Centre webpage.

Iron Wraith said:
Improve the learning curve in the early stages and the rest should take care of itself.


Easier said than done!  ;-)
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marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay20130,1,0

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:07 am
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From training center you can pick
1 don't use
2 spend 500DW$ (premium members)
3 spend 5 CHR
4 spend 10 CHR

I don't see this as a way to stack modifiers
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vet wv paintball paintladder ped1 race1 semiprocombat zom marshal pvp20,8,0

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:10 am Last edited Sep 6, 2014, 9:11 am by *Boonwolf*
Iron Wraith
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I think that was where I was confused.

So CHR 5 is better than subscriber free or $500 per week and will be enhanced by training driver in Somerset (for example) but will be affected by whatever random training form is in place (and activity level).

OK I'll monitor my student and see what happens.
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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:24 am
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Thank you for the better explanation, which indicates you need to manage carefully to "try/hope"" to get the best benefit from using Chrome.

But if as you say the character should be in or near top form before using Chrome, then most likely that character will get full training each week and cap out at the 5 or 8 points no matter if you used Chrome or not. It's still a guessing game for a far more valuable currency, you could use Chrome and there may be no benefit gained.

Different approach/suggestion.

Chrome - Used for a personal trainer in addition to the training center and other bonuses applied each week/Dark wind month.

(In real life I was able to do both for Martial arts training)

Remember, each week is really 1 full month in Dark Wind time.

Benefit - Chrome, used for a character that has private training adds one additional skill point each week/Dark wind month in addition to all other skill training the character would normally be gained that week/month. Similar to an SCL voucher but is restricted to one additional point each week/DW month.

Example: Weekly training kicks off, character gets 4 skill point gain without using Chrome. Players adds Chrome perk(personal trainer), Character gets 5 skill points instead of the 4 they would have normally gained. This would also work for characters with bad training form. So if they would have normally only gained 1 point for the full week/month of training, that character with bad training form now would get 2 points that week/DW month instead of just 1 skill point. (This would get players to use Chrome far more than just on their best training characters, more Chrome used benefits you as the game owner)

This way there is a visible/guaranteed effect of using Chrome, which is far more valuable than in game currency used for the town training centers. Your method only adds the "possibility" of Chrome making a difference each week.

In my opinion, this approach would get more players to use the feature, which in turn benefits you financially. If the game developers you talk with don't play/know your game, their version of the monetization model may not fit that well.


Additionally, I agree with the others. Time spent on the road should still count against town training each week/DW month. If a character spends 5 out of 7 days on the road traveling from SS to Sarsfield (Basically 3 weeks of driving), that character should not get full training that week.
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vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball60,254,142

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:58 pm Last edited Sep 6, 2014, 8:16 pm by Lord Foul
*sam*
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That's an interesting idea, yeah. The reason I removed 'time on the road' was to make it less unpredictable. But the way you're suggesting it would remove the unpredictability too.
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Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:08 pm
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1 week isnt one month when it comes to darkwind when calculating travel time. I welcome the idea to remove it from the training equation or would welcome even more that all travel time be compressed to 1/4 the current values to reflect proper time compression.
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vet wv

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:23 pm
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LF:
The problem with your implementation is that non-premium players would find the CHR training less useful as they would only get the CHR training (1 point). 1 Point per week is too slow to be worth the investment. A single point might be worth 1 CHR which results in less euros for Sam.

If the intention is to make non-premium a valid play style then some of us will still buy CHR, (or via trading let someone else buy it for us).

It might be better to simply say the 5 CHR price is just an alternative to paying $500DW and gets the same level of training. Premium players would have the choice of either (and most would got the $DW route) or not paying at all and getting the free training. Non-premium players can only go the 5 CHR route.

You can then make an option to pay 5 CHR to get a personal trainer and maybe this would be cumulative with your "base" level of training (whatever level you chose). This makes the selection a little more complex, but it could still be handled with a drop down.

In summary the options are
Non-premium player
Pay nothing - get what you pay for.
5 CHR - Use training facility
10 CHR - Use training facility and personal trainer

Premium player
Pay Nothing - Get free training
$DW500 - Use Training Facility
5 CHR - Use Training Facility
5 CHR + $DW500 - Use training facility and personal trainer
10 CHR - Use training facility and personal trainer

It's a bit clumsy though.
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vet wv raceL1

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:37 pm Last edited Sep 6, 2014, 9:38 pm by Iron Wraith
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Ragnak said:
1 week isnt one month when it comes to darkwind when calculating travel time. I welcome the idea to remove it from the training equation or would welcome even more that all travel time be compressed to 1/4 the current values to reflect proper time compression.


Agree,

So if a trip takes roughly 5 real days (rough estimate based on re-supplying, refueling, sleeping etc at rest stops) to go from SS to Sarsfield, training for that week would be around 80%, instead of 100%.

Basically re-instate whatever formula Sam was using before instead of giving a free pass. But that is only as suggestion, if he wants to keep the  free pass, so be it.
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vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball60,254,142

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 1:31 am
Lord Foul
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Iron Wraith said:
LF:
The problem with your implementation is that non-premium players would find the CHR training less useful as they would only get the CHR training (1 point).  1 Point per week is too slow to be worth the investment.  A single point might be worth 1 CHR which results in less euros for Sam.


I believe you may be interpreting the Chrome bonus as giving more than one point per week.

The Chrome perk is a "bonus" in training speed or a slightly better version of normal training that is not guaranteed to increase skill. An unsubbed character with bad training form may only get a .50 skill point that week using the Chrome perk when they would normally have received nothing or 0 for being non-premium as you say. The unsubbed player won't know if their characters have good or bad training form if they get no training each week.

So say your non-premiem player with a gang that does not go up in skill each week(not including field training) and you decide to use the Chrome perk.

If you were a non-subbed player spending Chrome each week on a character(s) and were not sure if it was working, how would you know you're getting your monies worth? What if your guy(s) did not go up in skill that week even after Chrome perk use, would you be happy with that outcome? I doubt it.

Same scenario but with guaranteed results of 1 point for use of the same Chrome. The player sees it worked, since their character was not going up before the use of the Chrome perk.

So the question is, as a non subbed player, would you rather have

A-Chrome bonus with unpredictable results with no guarantees each week and you may not see constant results since it is only a bonus.

Or

B-Chrome bonus with guaranteed results of 1 point each week no matter what your characters training form is.

Ideally this is how it would go for non-premium and premium players.

Player pays $500 to activate town center training.

Player also decides to use Chrome perk, which is activated on the individual character like an SCL voucher.

Weekly training kicks off, character gets trained by training center and gets 3 points in skill. Then with the Chrome perk added(personal trainer) the character gets and additional guaranteed 1 skill point.

There's no unpredictability.
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 2:05 am Last edited Sep 7, 2014, 2:47 am by Lord Foul
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I believe the concept was stated earlier (by Sam) as:

--base training was 1 point
--using the Training Facility was a doubling (+100%) increase.
--5 chrome was a 250% increase
--10 chrome was a 350% increase

Factors such as Motivator and town specialty were left undefined and Form was a multiplier of 0.8 to 1.2

So technically 5 CHR adds 2.5 points to the base training IF that ganger were to only be set to gain 1 point to begin with.  Town specialty, training form and other factors should modify that base point.  With 1.2 high form and a town specialty you could see a base upwards of 2 making that 5 CHR into a bonus of 5 points or so (making the resulting skill gain somewhere around 7)

I would assume Motivator is added to the end, and not part of the base value.  If Mot 1 were 1 point and each added level diminished the return by half (though I think it was stated the diminishing value was 0.6 right?) that would make my Mot4 an added 1.87 or maybe a little over 2 tacked onto that 7 making it about a 9
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vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal0,2,0

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 2:41 am Last edited Sep 7, 2014, 2:51 am by *StCrispin*
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*StCrispin* said:
I believe the concept was stated earlier (by Sam) as:

--base training was 1 point
--using the Training Facility was a doubling (+100%) increase.
--5 chrome was a 250% increase
--10 chrome was a 350% increase

Factors such as Motivator and town specialty were left undefined and Form was a multiplier of 0.8 to 1.2

So technically 5 CHR adds 2.5 points to the base training IF that ganger were to only be set to gain 1 point to begin with.  Town specialty, training form and other factors should modify that base point.  With 1.2 high form and a town specialty you could see a base upwards of 2 making that 5 CHR into a bonus of 5 points or so (making the resulting skill gain somewhere around 7)

I would assume Motivator is added to the end, and not part of the base value.  If Mot 1 were 1 point and each added level diminished the return by half (though I think it was stated the diminishing value was 0.6 right?) that would make my Mot4 an added 1.87 or maybe a little over 2 tacked onto that 7 making it about a 9


If you're referring to the formula from this thread, it is based on training speed, not points.

Assuming free offline training has a relative training speed of 1.0 unit per week, then:
- DW$500/week training gives a relative training speed of 2.0 units
- CHR5/week gives a relative training speed of 3.75 units
- CHR10/week gives a relative training speed of 4.5 units

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vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball60,254,142

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 2:58 am
*StCrispin*
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Yes.

Just meaning to point out that 5 chrome doesn't mean "1 more skill point" because I think that's how it looks in some of the posting.  I wouldn't pay 5 chrome for one more point when I'm already getting 4 to 8 in SS just using the training center for (now) $500.

I could make 4 a week for 38 real life years for a million DW$ which is easier to part with than 5 chrome.  My outlook on it anyway.

personally I think $500 is too cheap so is food and lodging
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vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal0,2,0

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 3:04 am Last edited Sep 7, 2014, 3:17 am by *StCrispin*
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You are also paying $500 for gangers to get <.5 per week. There is no guarantee that paying $500 and having a high level motivator will mean that your ganger will get any noticeable training. I had 11 gangers without any noticeable training this past week, some for multiple weeks in a row, and that is with a level 10 motivator in SS. Yes, many of them are nearing their known cap, which is part of why their training is slow.

What LF has proposed is that the CHR training be a guaranteed 1 point rather than being some multiplier on an unknown value and could still end up being reported as 0. A guaranteed point of training is not insignificant in terms of passive/off-line training in DW.
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vet wv pvp5 pvp2

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 3:40 am
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Why not have it be a post-training multiplier? you see he gained X skill from weekly, and then you say "I will pay 5 for an added 250% of said value". Usable as long as the ganger has not gained any field training yet.

That would eliminate the "unknown" or "unseen" or "uninformed" portion. It would be more... What that word? Transparent?
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Posted Sep 7, 2014, 3:56 am
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hey sam give us a 4th option

20 chrome = add 1 point to a skill that is capped, you can make it so they can only purchase 1 point a week and only till next specialism, sometimes only a few points needed to get new spec.
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vet paintball wv

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 5:45 am
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