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Overpowered specs

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Jety said: In my experience negotiator is a highly ineffective skill. I pretty much assume it won't work ever. Hearing that it's over-powered makes me scratch my head in confusion. Maybe I just never had a Neg 5...? My Neg 5 often is unable to truce with NEUTRAL gangs (privateers, mutants seem the common Neutrals who won't truce at Neg 5) It worked before the last "fix" when people complained about safe lorry travels. After the adjustment it stopped working at all for me (and the safe lorry travels were not affected since they still truce at Liked or better even with an untrained scout) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:17 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Maybe if people started using moving defensive bonuses instead of sitting still (like the AI does) and stopped relying on rear weaponry "For safety" (Large penalty for rear weapons) they MIGHT not feel the need to (ab)use the sniper spec to be able to hit the enemy first. Vets also use cannons a lot, guess what? Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. The fact that a lot of vets think they should be outshooting the AI MG's/Rockets down south with CANNONS without breaking a sweat, while doing above for further penalties is total lunacy. People got used to being babied by the sniper spec and became bad players because of it, I never had a problem when it was nerfed because I primarily mounted and fight with front weapons even back then. And no Longo this is not at you specifically but people who rely on sniper in general. I'm not sure if you always play like that but a vast majority of vets who rely on sniper do so I'm assuming this is why you had issues when it got nerfed last time. Anyway, You don't "Need" it to be able to fight efficiently. And I agree with the others before, restrict "Sniper" to Rifle type guns. Edit; Oh, of course vets are going to be heavily outnumbered down south, It's not like the AI is rolling in crowds of 350CR buzzers is it? (Cannons have a LOT of CR to boot) ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:25 pm Last edited Jul 11, 2014, 10:29 pm by FireFly

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. I mostly agree with Joel here. Except that Rapid Shot doesn't feel OP to me EXCEPT for one factor: the additional shots using RS should have a lower accuracy than the first shot RS 3 is the point at which the chance if a multishot becomes quite likely (seems 3 out of 4 shots will be multi at that level) Many pen and paper RPGs allow additional attacks at an increasing negative modifier to hit/damage. While this is a good idea it runs into the issue that we do not control when the multi occurs and some players may not want to punch out double shots if the second has a high likelihood of failure ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:31 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *sam* said: Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. I am planning to modify rapidshot a bit, yes. At high specs and without any kind of soft cap, engine tuner is *massively* overpowered, I can guarantee you that. Not from people but from code. Slipstream has a greater impact on racing (for me) than engine tuner ever did. I have never noticed any benefit to engine tuner for my people. Maybe this is because League Races (which carry good prizes) use stock cars where ET has no effect. And yet Slipstream DOES. Maybe if the Leagues were expanded to include a Noobs league with 60 or less in driver skills but stock cars. And then an advanced league where you supply your own but prizes are more significant But a good fix would also be to put in an Evan Autoduel Association regulation saying only the driver can tune his or her car. In this way the stacked spec bonus would require the Uber driver to also train their mech skill to get an ET benefit ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:39 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 FireFly said: Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. Maybe if you were talking ATG's.. yes Those are short range weapons, CC... I would say on par with HMG and superior to Rocket Launchers. Draw back, kicks like a mule on most chassis types. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:42 pm

*K1500* Big Dumb Object Autodueller Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 394 Joined: Dec 29, 2011 Okay I'll throw my 2c worth in here. Sniper: It's certainly the spec which defines large portions of the game. Increasing the range at which you can hit at seems to be one of the key features which allows you to move into the more dangerous areas of Evan. Having said that, applying it to all weapons does seem to be a problem. What I would like to see would be sniper apply specifically to CR/HCR BUT the other weapon specs (ROC, HVY, MGs, etc) to have a better increase of range with each level of their specs. This would mean that people still get to improve the range they hit at, but your gangers end up more specialised in particular weapon types. This would also encourage players to have certain builds of vehicles to suit their gangers, as opposed to simply what build has the best weapons (if that makes sense). I can see particular gangs being known for using certain types of weapons - "Oh no it's NECRO - get ready for a storm of ROCKETS!!" (not say you use rockets lots Necro, just using your name for the example!) To me this would be the main change I'd love to see - it makes sense (to me) that as characters get more skilled they can hit at greater range, but I think as gangers get more skilled this should be coming from them specialising in particular weapon types (instead of specialising at long range fire). The other option would be to have SNP accuracy actually reduce more once the enemy got within a certain range! Sure he can hit guys at 150m but once they're within 50m he just has troubles keeping them down the barrel :-) Engine Tuning: I currently don't have any ET guys, but did have an ET4 guy and noticed a significant difference in how my vehicles performed when he was in town. At level 1 & 2 I didn't notice much difference. Level 3 was noticeable and when I hit level 4 I was surprised how noticeable it was. Diminishing returns for the spec seems to be the way to go. Rapid Shot: I think at levels 1 & 2 it is about right - haven't had anyone above that level though. The thing with rapid shot is that there are many things you have to account for - ammo consumption and recoil in particular. I've had twin CC buzzers and BPU's get rapid shots off and the recoil has thrown them round for multiple turns, effectively taking them out of the fight until I could get the recoil under control. It's a powerful spec but with certain weapons you need to know how to manage it. Psi: I really can't comment on this as I've never had a Psi spec. In particular with "Burn" do I think it's powerful? Yes. Do I recognise that people have to work really hard to get it? Yes. Is it really powerful in PvP? Yes. Yes I did loose two of my best guys to Longo with an instant explode in the recent CoE2. I was kinda pissed about the instant explode (not getting a chance to escape) but it was my own fault that I got into that situation to start with - I should have stayed back, taken high ground and continued to hammer him with my SNP5/RS1 on the HCR. I just wanted to make it clear that MY recent experience with Psi in CoE2 was my own fault - what annoyed me was the instant explode, not the use of the "burn" power. Longo baited the trap and I walked into it. Negotiator: I have a NEG5 guy and he often gets returns when scouting - but this could have more to do with my faction standings and where he is scouting. Also could have something to do with him being a heavy Zerk user (hard to negotiate when you're foaming at the mouth and screaming profanities!).  I'm assuming that any significant changes will come with the chance to respec. K [Oh and cheers Sam for the ongoing tweaks, changes and upgrades you've put in recently, your patience with us is impressive! I may not agree with all the changes but I do appreciate the work that you've put in.] ......................... vet wv zom circuit1 storm2013 circuit3 marshal pvp2 ped2 pvp4 circuit2 ped1 gwped0,1,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:49 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 SmokeyKilla said: Gangers already die to easily......I dont believe any specs should be nerfed.  Even if someone does get a 10 +spec character how long is he gonna last?  The only skill that should be modified is sniper and it should be be done by weapon type, bally, mgs, heavy, rockets and hand guns. I have a couple 16 spec characters. They lasted well over a real year until I retired them as camp mechanics (due to high or capped mech skills more than due to age or weakness) An established vet with toys and money can keep a high skill ganger alive fairly well if they don't get too crazy with trying unusual tactics or builds. Sometimes random bad things happen, but high spec gangers do exist. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:50 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Necrotech said: FireFly said: Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. Maybe if you were talking ATG's.. yes Those are short range weapons, CC... I would say on par with HMG and superior to Rocket Launchers. Necro we might not get along well but I'd like to give you more credit than this. 1. Rocket launchers have superior range to both HMG's and Cannons, if you'd asked Joel about it he could have told you. In fact, Sam has told people this repeatedly when they complain about the RL. It needs a lot of targeting time and is susceptible to moving targets, but it's got by far one of the longest ranges in the game in it's own element. 2. Give a rookie a cannon, give a rookie an HMG, compare at what range they'll start hitting reliably. 3. The ATG used to be worse than the CC but this was changed 2-3 years ago to be the same. This was something sam dropped in the passing iirc when in an event so might want to ask for confirmation. Admittedly I can be misremembering that last part, but I'm damned sure of the first two. Not starting anything, but the above are easily conformable facts. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:57 pm Last edited Jul 11, 2014, 11:01 pm by FireFly

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 goat starer said: there has to be a firing rate limit for weapons The current rate of fire of 1 shot per in game second is already unrealistic from an ROF perspective.  Not to mention from a damage perspective. For example a 7.62mm MMG fires at roughly double the speed of a 12.7mm HMG. In real life an MMG has an armor penetrating factor of 12mm RHA at 500m and 0 degree obliqity  where the HMG has a penetration of 30mm.  The penetration rate corresponds with mass/velocity impact energy. As such, an MMG would do ad much "battering" damage to an ablative type armor such as ours, as an HMG. The only difference would be in penetration (blues sooner as armor degrades) The argument of limiting ROF to more realistic levels should also include limiting weapons to relative damage-over-time factors as well (basically making them all do pretty much the same damage) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:21 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 There seems to be some confusion over how negotiator works. - when you auto truce and the event doesn't even start, that is *not* negotiator. It is faction standing or else you met a trader and had auto truce set for traders. - negotiator applies only when you ask for a truce when in an actual event that has gone as far as actually starting up ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:31 pm

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,354 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 *sam* said: There seems to be some confusion over how negotiator works. - when you auto truce and the event doesn't even start, that is *not* negotiator.  It is faction standing or else you met a trader and had auto truce set for traders. - negotiator applies only when you ask for a truce when in an actual event that has gone as far as actually starting up Does NEG have any effect as to whether or not you will even have an encounter? 55555 ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:52 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 FireFly said: Necrotech said: FireFly said: Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. Maybe if you were talking ATG's.. yes Those are short range weapons, CC... I would say on par with HMG and superior to Rocket Launchers. Necro we might not get along well but I'd like to give you more credit than this. 1. Rocket launchers have superior range to both HMG's and Cannons, if you'd asked Joel about it he could have told you. In fact, Sam has told people this repeatedly when they complain about the RL. It needs a lot of targeting time and is susceptible to moving targets, but it's got by far one of the longest ranges in the game in it's own element. 2. Give a rookie a cannon, give a rookie an HMG, compare at what range they'll start hitting reliably. 3. The ATG used to be worse than the CC but this was changed 2-3 years ago to be the same. This was something sam dropped in the passing iirc when in an event so might want to ask for confirmation. Admittedly I can be misremembering that last part, but I'm damned sure of the first two. Not starting anything, but the above are easily conformable facts. Maybe with RL I can see that If you give a new ganger one of each weapon HMG vs CC Yes, in the beginning your are very correct, However once you start getting above say, 100 skill... HMG starts losing the battle quickly at equal range. Flipside - HMG has more ammo to throw around.. But an equally spec'd Mg2 with say SNP 1 vs Hvy 2 Snp1...  CC wins no question. As for ATG anything over 80 meters is suspect, where the CC is near automatic up to 120m with an equal ganger. There is a huge disparity in accuracy between the two weapons ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:53 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Actually, cannons benefit more from sniper than HMG's do iirc, that's why you see it "level out". Also, remember that you should be comparing a machinegunner to a heavy weapons guy... Here's the thing, everyone has heavy weapons (cannon) speccers but nobody has a lot of machinegunners. I betcha a 100 skill MG2 would beat out a HW2 on a CC, no sniper involved. As for ATG vs. CC, I'm still quite sure I remember correctly there. If we are being logical about it here, unless sam has coded it in some really twisted way the CC should not be able to overtake the HMG, higher base stats should natrually stay higher given growth in the same areas. The CC might win a damage output game, but the HMG is going to have more range and accuarcy at longer ranges, that's without doubt. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:16 am Last edited Jul 12, 2014, 12:20 am by FireFly

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 i dont think its 100 skill that a HMG starts winning... i think its sniper 2 rapid reload 1 ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:17 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. Keep changing things change them because of things I EXACTLY WARNED ABOUT.  Lose players lose interest, I will remain to kill the rest. Joel Autobaun said: Nov21 2009!I have to say i'm concerned with the pyrokenesis power.  Setting a car on fire is a very very powerful skill. http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=10323&f=1&min=0&num=20 ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:41 am Last edited Jul 12, 2014, 12:49 am by Joel Autobaun

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:47 am Last edited Jul 12, 2014, 12:53 am by goat starer

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed. You've been allowed to run your mouth off at me for quite some time now with no punishment well... ENOUGH!  You are a random troll and i will fight you at every single turn - on the forum in the game and in the lobby EXPECT it BACK i will no longer ignore your CRAP. You are intellectually dishonest and I am sure i'm not the only one who would say that - you might be surprised how many people could really give a crap what you say it's so random and scav scav scav... commie commie commie mememe. You accuse me of the exact things YOU do! ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:54 am Last edited Jul 12, 2014, 12:55 am by Joel Autobaun

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed. You've been allowed to run your mouth off at me for quite some time now with no punishment well... ENOUGH!  You are a random troll and i will fight you at every single turn - on the forum in the game and in the lobby EXPECT it BACK i will no longer ignore your CRAP. You are intellectually dishonest and I am sure i'm not the only one who would say that - you might be surprised how many people could really give a crap what you say it's so random and scav scav scav... commie commie commie mememe. You accuse me of the exact things YOU do! no joel... i have maintained very consistent points of view over a very long time.. you however got bored.. and intead of moving on tried to engineer a game where you could act as a little hitler of the races. sit back, take a chill pill and make some useful contributions. You know what works and what doesnt in the game. You have used much of what doesnt. Use your experience to make it better rather than just using it make you feel a tiny bit better every time you win a league. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:59 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:03 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! one acronym EAA introduced because of your behaviour... made the whole game #### and get a grip.. you vacillate between saying scav is a sideshow played by three people and scav split the community... which is it? ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:23 am

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