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Darkwind changes coming up!, Steam release in a few months
FireFly
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Interestiiiing, I now have to make my long suggestion here, sorry about this everyone  :rolleyes:


Weaponclass proficency system, proficency systeeeeem /whispers

If possible I really do think that dividing the weapon skills into classes would make a lot more sense along the lines of below and then mold the specs to fit the categories instead of being universal.
Quote:

Automatics (Anything on auto)
Long Arms (Car Rifles, Lasers)
Missiles/Rockets (What it sounds like, the heavy rocket is still a rocket)
Heavy Weapons (Cannon sized weapons)
Ballistics (mortars)

You can work hand weapons in to, after all, a car rifle is just a larger rifle and shouldn't be to different from the hand weapon. Same with an RPG and so on.

You can even sub-devide them with specs like "Automatics > Heavy Automatics Lvl.1". Like that you'd have guy above avreage with HGG/HMG's.

It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to in my opinion, after all, rapidly reloading a machinegun/rifle is very different from a cannon or rocket launcher. It'd also finally put machineguns in the same category, the HMG is a larger machinegun and not a brother to the cannon  ;)



But I don't know if it's to much work or not, that's my suggestion anyway. Oh, and stay clear of range buffs, they're unnecaccery, the ONLY weapon type to have sniper should be long arms, car rifles and lasers pretty much.

I better stop before I rant, good luck with this anyway :D
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Posted May 16, 2014, 2:36 pm Last edited May 16, 2014, 2:38 pm by FireFly
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goat starer said:
i think you should play a bit!


I will, honest! When I get the back broken on all these updates.
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Posted May 16, 2014, 5:49 pm
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*sam* said:
goat starer said:
i think you should play a bit!


I will, honest! When I get the back broken on all these updates.


playing is good for you
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Posted May 16, 2014, 10:11 pm
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Neat idea FF
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Posted May 16, 2014, 10:56 pm
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Since Lasers have no ballistic trajectory and don't have. A drift deviation due to wind or an issue with barrel temperature or environmental temperature or barometric pressures or humidity changing its flight path...

I just don't think Sniper should apply to Lasers.

I do think a lot more consideration needs to go into the skills and specs system. But I expect that's a lot more work than is needed to become Steam Ready. Plus probably a lot of effort that Sam would probably benefit more from investing elsewhere. HOWEVER I do think it would improve the gameplay and add a great deal of complexity

For me a connection to my gangers and their progression through "life" is what really sucks me in. So the more minutiae involved in individualizing them and making them more complex creatures is a game draw. I'm pretty sure I don't stand alone

A deep character system would benefit our player base retention when we start seeing a Steam influx
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Posted May 17, 2014, 2:55 am
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I would like to see:

- Weapon-specific specs (RL, MG, HCY, LAS, etc) function much closer to what SNP now does - better range, better accuracy, better damage..

- Sniper have a significantly lesser impact than these specs, but more universal application.

Just another thought....
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Posted May 17, 2014, 6:42 am
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Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.
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Posted May 17, 2014, 9:54 am
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Ultimately..

Each Main Skill

Instances

Large Guns (Give a few more weapon options for this)
Gunnery (Heavy Gatling/Machine guns should go here)
Rocketry (Combine Missiles, Rpg's and similar here)
Ballistic Weapons
Sniper Type (CR/HCR/rifles, other additional options)

Have exclusive skill trees.. with little bleed over to otherwise mutually exclusive weapons. (You could add "top tier" skills, but you need a certain level of proficiency in one or multiple main categories, which only be chosen once or twice)

Instead of nerfing Sniper.. make it's own class.

Good with a Bofors 40mm (CC) does not mean good with a HCR or a HMG.. etc

Creates a more specialized character set vs. (as it stands) a homogenized character.

This also leads more to additional skills for other Skill base characters such as medics and the like.

"Surgeon" treated amputees may have only a 10% vs. a 15% permanent loss

"Combat medic" Slows or stops bleeding for a character within a vicinity (on foot) or in a vehicle (but only 1 character at a time)

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Posted May 17, 2014, 3:15 pm
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No one ever likes the idea of NERFING a skill.

As for sniper they with that skill they should have fire delayed no matter there speed due to taking aimed shots.
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Posted May 17, 2014, 4:26 pm
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What about removing skill caps altogether, and instead, use the existing system - which already naturally slows training at higher skill levels - without caps? Some gangers will become "effectively capped" due to the difficulty in training further, either in the field or in town/etc.
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Posted May 17, 2014, 4:44 pm
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*Bastille* said:
Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.


The other option is to to have a speed modifier on how the sniper skill works - the faster your vehicle is going the longer it takes for the spec to actually kick in.

The down point to this is that it would encourage line fighting and sitting on hill tops - but this already happens because there is a tactical advantage in doing so.

So good suggestions going on here.

K
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Posted May 17, 2014, 7:53 pm
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Cant search my own post where I said a similar thing to FF (feel shame you camp forum peeking exploiters).

Changing sniper to become the spec for HCR/CR/laser/rifle/crossbow solves everything. Same bonus as heavy weapons for CC /TG and machine guns to MG/HMG/etc.

Since CR and laser etc have inherent range bonuses, this would make them slightly more effective as far as range goes. CR certainly wont become overpowered this way. Laser might, Laser still will require the other laser spec so it can be fired as often as it needs to be fired to be more effective than ballistics.

Essentially this would become a slight nerf for CC/TG as no more snipe for them. I think most of us can agree that would be welcome as CC is so far and away a superior weapon to anything else it is ridiculous. It still would be grand daddy at ranges under 100M (frankly this is where most Pve and certainly a lot of PvP happens). I dont think you guys with your 300+ Large gunners will notice a change even.

Rapid reload and rapid shot become the new must haves. How to nerf them I dont know. I suggest to look at it AFTER the sniper change. Perhaps some weapons rapid shot more than others(they might now I cant tell). I have made FAR more enemies from the 4 CC shots in one round than I ever did from shooting someone once from 250M with a laserbeam. rapidshot = dead gangers period. Useful as hell in PvE and PvP. Phase 2 of balancing in my opinion.
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Posted May 17, 2014, 8:09 pm Last edited May 17, 2014, 8:15 pm by Joel Autobaun
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Joel Autobaun said:
Cant search my own post where I said a similar thing to FF (feel shame you camp forum peeking exploiters).

Changing sniper to become the spec for HCR/CR/laser/rifle/crossbow solves everything.  Same bonus as heavy weapons for CC /TG and machine guns to MG/HMG/etc.

Since CR and laser etc have inherent  range bonuses, this would make them slightly more effective as far as range goes.  CR certainly wont become overpowered this way.  Laser might, Laser still will require the other laser spec so it can be fired as often as it needs to be fired to be more effective than ballistics.

Essentially this would become a slight nerf for CC/TG as no more snipe for them.  I think most of us can agree that would be welcome as CC is so far and away a superior weapon to anything else it is ridiculous.  It still would be grand daddy at ranges under 100M (frankly this is where most Pve and certainly a lot of PvP happens).    I dont think you guys with your 300+ Large gunners will notice a change even.

Rapid reload and rapid shot become the new must haves.  How to nerf them I dont know.  I suggest to look at it AFTER the sniper change.  Perhaps some weapons rapid shot more than others(they might now I cant tell).  I have made FAR more enemies from the 4 CC shots in one round than I ever did from shooting someone once from 250M with a laserbeam.  rapidshot = dead gangers period.  Useful as hell in PvE and PvP.  Phase 2 of balancing in my opinion.



this is spot on.. its something we all know and the only dissenting voices are people resistant to ANY change, even good ones and those who fear having to adapt their play style.

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Posted May 17, 2014, 8:33 pm
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Here is my post from 2011.  I'm glad people finally seem to b seeing it my way.  Just wish this happened sooner.

Joel Autobaun said:
ARRRG....cannot stay out of it...

Sorry Al, good try but terrible actually.  Sniper is a gunnery spec.  You just split the gunnery specs while allowing large guns even better xtraining with sniper.

Ok look:

Sniper gone - introduce "Rifle spec".  Allow respec only for snipers.  Rifles/CR/HCR - same/similar bonus as heavy weapons give CC and TG and ATG.

Laserfire - gives accuracy bonus(equal to bonus heavyweapons/rifle spec /etc and Rocketry would give).  To be clear - Lasers actually are going to be worse after no sniper spec, this just gives an equivalent accuracy bonus(like heavy weapons or rocketry) for the weapon spec.

Add SubMG to Machine gun spec.

Add misc weaps spec (Fletchette/shotgun/VS/crossbow/whatever).

Bonus points(not as dire a situation as sniper, and only my opinion):
Rapid shot needs a nerf.
DD needs a nerf.


http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=18735&min=0&num=20
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Posted May 17, 2014, 8:52 pm
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i have to reluctantly agree with this. i spent over 2 years getting a really shooty/snipey gang going and this will really hurt my gang's effectiveness, but i see the wisdom of a lot of what was just said, alas. hence my initial question about respeccing.... sometimes it's just obvious the way things should go and this is one of those times imo.
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Posted May 17, 2014, 11:17 pm
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You're hardly the only one to ever suggest that Joel, just because you're accused of a lot of things does not mean you're the only one to have those ideas around specs ;)

I've suggested such a thing at least one time before, if not more. God I was dissapointed over that sniper spec nerf (the nerf was totally justified) and the dumb backlash that got it reverted.

Anyway, retooling the weapon classes would go a long way.
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Posted May 18, 2014, 1:31 am Last edited May 18, 2014, 5:36 am by FireFly
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I don't want to see caps go, but it would be more interesting to me if a character had a different cap for each skill. So a 74 cap scout might be good at something else. Just a thought.
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Posted May 18, 2014, 3:06 am
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K1500 said:
*Bastille* said:
Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.


The other option is to to have a speed modifier on how the sniper skill works - the faster your vehicle is going the longer it takes for the spec to actually kick in.

The down point to this is that it would encourage line fighting and sitting on hill tops - but this already happens because there is a tactical advantage in doing so.

So good suggestions going on here.

K


yeah, I think its worth looking at it from many different ways at this point.
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Posted May 18, 2014, 9:59 am
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FireFly said:
You're hardly the only one to ever suggest that Joel, just because you're accused of a lot of things does not mean you're the only one to have those ideas around specs ;)

I've suggested such a thing at least one time before, if not more. God I was dissapointed over that sniper spec nerf (the nerf was totally justified) and the dumb backlash that got it reverted.

Anyway, retooling the weapon classes would go a long way.


Nine and I discussed it and suggested it years ago. It's been a recurring theme that got changed into a sniper nerf that was reversed because people can't stand change. It would have its biggest effect on scav as you need crews to be good at all weapons to keep them in ammo.

I really don't think anyone thinks it isn't a good idea... They just think it's not a good idea for their gang  :cyclops:
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Posted May 18, 2014, 4:55 pm Last edited May 18, 2014, 4:57 pm by goat starer
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Good for ones gang or not, really doesn't matter. There are very few players at the mo and they all know each other. Having a change at this point has minimal effect on anyone, especially if there is a respec to any degree.
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Posted May 19, 2014, 12:00 am Last edited May 19, 2014, 12:01 am by *Bastille*
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