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Understanding the PVP debate, Have I missed Something?
*Bigspenner*
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Catagorically it wasn't me. There will be times I don't want to as I am sure there will be for everyone like when my dinners nearly ready of I need a poo or I am off to the pub.

I think the best way would be a half and half world a safe area for those that don't want to inhabit the PVP open world I believe Evan once was and an equally large area where it is the down and dirty roleplay game the others want.

In some ways this seems to be a difference between roleplay and strategy games and I can see how Darkwind can be viewed as either of the two or a combination of both depending on what the individual wants from it. This should be a strength rather than a bone of contention.

If both extremes existed in game everyone could be happy and oddly that would make Evan paradise.

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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:37 am Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 1:39 am by Bigspenner
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Well no. I wouldn't be able to scout with everyone or do town races all day if people who wanted to PVP had to move. AND, if we did move, Somerset would get even lonelier. Flag works. If you want to think of it as two Evans, think of it as a flagged Evan and a nonflagged Evan. We only have 40-50 characters and so much free time.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:45 am Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 2:46 am by Groovelle
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I don't think big is suggesting people move... Just the age old simple solution of PvP open for all in bl, sv, fl and morgan, flags on elsewhere.

Solves everything.. anyone playing those places should be good enough to PvP and big enough to take the occasional beating. There is a gauntlet for non PvP players to run through making stupid travel exploits largely redundant. And non PvP players can choose to just play the northern triangle if the want (as many have dine for years)



Ps. I have seen big eat his dinner, do a poo and go to the pub simultaneously... Don't see why he can't do a squad challenge at the same time!
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:18 am
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goat starer said:
I don't think big is suggesting people move... Just the age old simple solution of PvP open for all in bl, sv, fl and morgan, flags on elsewhere.

Solves everything..  anyone playing those places should be good enough to PvP and big enough to take the occasional beating. There is a gauntlet for non PvP players to run through making stupid travel exploits largely redundant. And non PvP players can choose to just play the northern triangle if the want (as many have dine for years)

Ps. I have seen big eat his dinner, do a poo and go to the pub simultaneously... Don't see why he can't do a squad challenge at the same time!




I believe I have achieved my objective which was to understand the PVP Debate and I have a solution I think.

Unlike Grooves blinkered response I am not suggesting everyone who PVPs is ONLY in the south that would be rubbish. Everyone needs to stop arguing the small points and focus on a broad solution once that is agreed we will all have to compromise the little issues.

My suggestion is that as Goat clarifies above the pvp flag works in the northern triangle and dosent below that.

This would mean that no one had pvp forced on them and the leagues could be freed up to be a bit more of a strategic competition that many of us would prefer. It would also mean that the PVP players really could do as much as they want and really get into the roleplay aspect of Darkwind. The rest you could agree was a civilised duelling area where surrenders are honoured in general practice.

This would mean also that bi-curious players could go south risking what they were comfortable with to learn the system. Squad challenges would work everywhere. and as the training and hospitals and several leagues are in ss and elms the vets and pros and sports people would all be there and if they wanted would no doubt still scout as they enjoy it.

I don't think any of the non pvp players are as worried about losing kit as many think, but given the impossibility of winning some aspects of the game without high specced gangers they do need the chance to grow some of them in order to challenge the vets supremecy.

Everyone gets what they want to fair degree.

Surely if we work together we can all be happy.

I think there are a lot of people here selfishly wanting it all their own way and that's the problem, DW and Evan are not.

I think therefore I now understand the debate and it seems the issue is more with the debaters than the debate.

This can easily be made to be 90% of what everyone wants.

Lets work together to make Evan the paradise we know it can be

I love you all.

And goat is right 100%
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 11:46 am Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 11:51 am by Bigspenner
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yes... spot on.. its the best compromise
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 11:49 am Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 12:24 pm by goat starer
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*Snipe* said:
Lol - yeah, but trust me there are people hunting you still.

The intercept system is a rough one.


incidentally, correct me if i'm wrong, but you were trying to intercept me the other day and it failed, right? any idea why? one of the few times i thought i had the time for it.... of course right after that someone walked into my office, so i woulda had to bounty, but why did it fail?
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 12:29 pm
Alec Burke
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goat starer said:
I don't think big is suggesting people move... Just the age old simple solution of PvP open for all in bl, sv, fl and morgan, flags on elsewhere.

Solves everything..  anyone playing those places should be good enough to PvP and big enough to take the occasional beating. There is a gauntlet for non PvP players to run through making stupid travel exploits largely redundant. And non PvP players can choose to just play the northern triangle if the want (as many have dine for years)


Didn't we already try this and it didn't appear to solve anything. The lack of PvP when BL and south was all PvP open is largely what lead to the current system of flags everywhere and everywhere having PvP if your flag is set to PvP on. I guess this adds the idea of the flag system still working in SS rather than SS being completely non-PvP, but I don't see how it's going to really generate any more PVP when it didn't previously.

I agree that in theory it sounds like a decent compromise, but the evidence is that it didn't work satisfactorily.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:40 pm
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Alec Burke said:
goat starer said:
I don't think big is suggesting people move... Just the age old simple solution of PvP open for all in bl, sv, fl and morgan, flags on elsewhere.

Solves everything..  anyone playing those places should be good enough to PvP and big enough to take the occasional beating. There is a gauntlet for non PvP players to run through making stupid travel exploits largely redundant. And non PvP players can choose to just play the northern triangle if the want (as many have dine for years)


Didn't we already try this and it didn't appear to solve anything. The lack of PvP when BL and south was all PvP open is largely what lead to the current system of flags everywhere and everywhere having PvP if your flag is set to PvP on. I guess this adds the idea of the flag system still working in SS rather than SS being completely non-PvP, but I don't see how it's going to really generate any more PVP when it didn't previously.

I agree that in theory it sounds like a decent compromise, but the evidence is that it didn't work satisfactorily.


that is not what happened at all
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:44 pm
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goat starer said:

that is not what happened at all


So what happened then? Explain if I'm recalling it wrong.

We did BL and south being PvP open and the north not. It apparently didn't work, since people in both crowds wanted a change. (Not everyone in both crowds, obviously, but it wasn't just one side wanting a change.)

One of the big arguments put forth for the current system was the fact that most people are in the north and that a flag system should be allowed even in SS because that is where most people (those who want to PvP and those who don't) are and therefore being able to do PvP there if you want would be good for PvP generally.

Listen, I really don't care much one way or the other in this discussion. Doesn't matter to me what happens, as while I really don't have the time to engage in PvP, even if the entirety of the game is everyone is open to PvP intercepts everywhere, it won't really bother me as I'm fine running around in Phos and simply surrendering when my 10-15 minutes of play time runs out. Don't expect that will be much fun for the interceptor, which is why with the flag system I stay PvP off.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:56 pm
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I don't believe I have ever heard people who treat this as an RP game and want it to be challenging (what you are calling the pro PvP crowd) complain about any situation where areas of the map were PvP open. You are simply making that up.

If you ask them what they want they will tell you they want s fully open map... But I have never seen a campaign to change it or any complaint that we needed to open mord of the map because there was "not enough PvP" in the south... Again... Invention.

I am heartily sick of this debate. I'm glad I'm playing mostly the fully PvP open version... Where incidentally none of the bull#### scare mongering of the other side has come to pass... I wonder why?
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:11 pm
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goat starer said:
I don't believe I have ever heard people who treat this as an RP game and want it to be challenging (what you are calling the pro PvP crowd) complain about any situation where areas of the map were PvP open. You are simply making that up.

I didn't say they complained that the south was open - they complained that making the south open did not lead to the increased PvP they wanted (and many people had argued it would provide in the vote which lead to the south being completely open). Obviously what many of them really wanted was to make all of Evan PvP open and do away with the flag completely. The flag working everywhere and SS becoming open for those so flagged was the voted on compromise. The idea being that those who wanted PvP could now do so in SS, where a lot of people tend to keep much of their gang due to league activities.

But you can claim that I'm making things up rather than actually provide any real information.

The fact is we have done BL and south completely PvP open. We could certainly have another vote to go back to it, but I don't see why the result will be much different in the future than it was in the past.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:44 pm Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 2:45 pm by Alec Burke
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Alec Burke said:

I didn't say they complained that the south was open - they complained that making the south open did not lead to the increased PvP they wanted


provide any example... suggest someone who argued this? its fiction

I cant provide information to back this up.. you are claiming something was said... i'm saying it wasn't. Even people with the tiniest shred of logical thinking can see that you can't provide evidence for a negative.


in this case you have provided no support for your completely nonsensical comments.

the very idea that the people who support open pvp have some sort of idea of how much is the 'right' amount in preposterous. They have argued about difficulty of intercepts, they have argued philosophical points of the theory of games, they have argued about the nature of this game and whet it was intended to be... but you are just making up other arguments to fit what you think.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:58 pm Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 3:01 pm by goat starer
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goat starer said:
Alec Burke said:

I didn't say they complained that the south was open - they complained that making the south open did not lead to the increased PvP they wanted


provide any example... suggest someone who argued this? its fiction

You're correct, I should provide a specific example. Perhaps if I have time and I can get the forum search features to work I can dig some out the multiple threads which lead to the last pvp vote.

Although even if I did, how would I know that you wouldn't just claim that the person who appeared to me to be one of the "open pvp crowd" isn't someone you don't consider to be part of it? For example, I'm fairly certain it wasn't Joel who ever made such a statement. Well, at least in terms of an argument for the current system, as he has been steadfast in opposing any flag system. He may have complained about opening up the south not leading to increased pvp - not certain on that. But what if it was someone like d0dger? Would you consider him a supporter of open pvp or opposed to open pvp? Do you have a list of acceptable pro-PvP (a term I haven't used until now, despite you claiming I was using that term) people I must find complaining about the lack of pvp in the completely opened south as an argument for the current system we have in place?

Right now all I have is my memory, which includes both forum posts and comments made to me personally by people who want(ed) pvp but weren't finding much of it in the south during the trial and therefore were in favor of the current system which opened up the north for pvp as well. Who knows,perhaps it was just arguments people were telling me to try to get me to vote a certain way and they didn't actually feel that way at all.

Probably easier to just say your right and I'm wrong, since that would appear to make you very happy.

goat starer said:
in this case you have provided no support for your completely nonsensical comments.


I'm not even certain what you are calling my "completely nonsensical comments"?

That we have already had completely open pvp in BL and south and that it didn't seem to be a satisfactory compromise? Doesn't the fact that we voted to end it provide some evidence that it wasn't working as a compromise?

As I said initially, I too think it sounds like a decent compromise in theory. But if we make that change again, I don't see why we should expect the result to be any different. Won't we be back having these endless pvp debates again in another 6 months to a year?
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 4:22 pm
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no it doesn't... because the vote was based on scaremongering a bunch of new players with the threat that me or joel or darth were going to murder them in their sleep and eat their babies.

the bit i am calling ninsensical however is your assertion that it was proponents of PVP who wanted a change... who complained about anything... once the vote was started people put forward their views that pvp should be open everywhere but i dont remember a single person advancing the arguments you are claiming.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 5:12 pm Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 5:13 pm by goat starer
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goat starer said:
no it doesn't... because the vote was based on scaremongering a bunch of new players with the threat that me or joel or darth were going to murder them in their sleep and eat their babies.


So that makes this pro-PvP group of yours who? You, Joel and the four other people who voted against the current PvP system?

And the 66 who voted in favor of there being the possibility of PvP everywhere but there also being a flag system for those who didn't wish to engage in intercept PvP for whatever reason - those are all anti-PvPers or newbs who were fear-mongered into voting for it?

I certainly recall Joel speaking up against the last vote (again, he's consistent in his position of completely opposing flags) but I seem to recall people like Serephe, Longo, Groove, Juris, Necro and others, being supportive of the vote. And they aren't people I normally associate with being opposed to pvp.

That was the vote which ended the south being completely pvp open.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 6:32 pm
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goat starer said:
no it doesn't... because the vote was based on scaremongering a bunch of new players with the threat that me or joel or darth were going to murder them in their sleep and eat their babies.


I thought you kind of looked a little bit like a Dingo  ;)
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 7:03 pm
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Alec.... When you make up numbers and 'facts' it totally undermines your credibility. I suggest you search for the last several PvP polls to see an almost exactly 50% split on these issues.


Now unless you have anything factual and accurate to add I have had enough. Feel free to use this thread as your own personal misinformation and propoganda tool... Big will probably be good enough to change the heading for you.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 7:49 pm Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 7:49 pm by goat starer
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An entertaining conversation for a while between Goat and Alec above but I believe the following would give everyone a fair slice of the action they want.

Bigspenner said:
goat starer said:
I don't think big is suggesting people move... Just the age old simple solution of PvP open for all in bl, sv, fl and morgan, flags on elsewhere.

Solves everything..  anyone playing those places should be good enough to PvP and big enough to take the occasional beating. There is a gauntlet for non PvP players to run through making stupid travel exploits largely redundant. And non PvP players can choose to just play the northern triangle if the want (as many have dine for years)

Ps. I have seen big eat his dinner, do a poo and go to the pub simultaneously... Don't see why he can't do a squad challenge at the same time!




I believe I have achieved my objective which was to understand the PVP Debate and I have a solution I think.

Unlike Grooves blinkered response I am not suggesting everyone who PVPs is ONLY in the south that would be rubbish. Everyone needs to stop arguing the small points and focus on a broad solution once that is agreed we will all have to compromise the little issues.

My suggestion is that as Goat clarifies above the pvp flag works in the northern triangle and dosent below that.

This would mean that no one had pvp forced on them and the leagues could be freed up to be a bit more of a strategic competition that many of us would prefer. It would also mean that the PVP players really could do as much as they want and really get into the roleplay aspect of Darkwind. The rest you could agree was a civilised duelling area where surrenders are honoured in general practice.

This would mean also that bi-curious players could go south risking what they were comfortable with to learn the system. Squad challenges would work everywhere. and as the training and hospitals and several leagues are in ss and elms the vets and pros and sports people would all be there and if they wanted would no doubt still scout as they enjoy it.

I don't think any of the non pvp players are as worried about losing kit as many think, but given the impossibility of winning some aspects of the game without high specced gangers they do need the chance to grow some of them in order to challenge the vets supremecy.

Everyone gets what they want to fair degree.

Surely if we work together we can all be happy.

I think there are a lot of people here selfishly wanting it all their own way and that's the problem, DW and Evan are not.

I think therefore I now understand the debate and it seems the issue is more with the debaters than the debate.

This can easily be made to be 90% of what everyone wants.

Lets work together to make Evan the paradise we know it can be

I love you all.

And goat is right 100%
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 8:36 pm
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[quote=goat starer]Alec.... When you make up numbers and 'facts' it totally undermines your credibility. I suggest you search for the last several PvP polls to see an almost exactly 50% split on these issues.[/quote]

I took the numbers directly from the last vote we had on PVP. You can go look them up yourself. It's page 4 of the subscriber's forum for me. The title is "PVP changes - vote!".
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:02 pm Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 9:04 pm by Alec Burke
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i must admit that last vote really had me scratching my head. Team shooting in scouts instead of open pvp in the south (which was voted 50/50 - the one goat is talking about).

Hey if you dont like the way things are decided just re-word a new poll in YOUR favour! THAT the DW playerbase way!

Incidentally I strongly considered shooting team mates in a morgan defense , several times I decided yea and then nay at the last min. I just cant do it, even though it was a perfect opportunity to totally fk up some enemies inthe game when all other avenues were taken away.

Shooting teammates in a scout is fkin dumb, I have no idea how such a majority can vote for that garbage and yet still the same people bitching about PvP.
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Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:10 pm
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