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Understanding the PVP debate, Have I missed Something?

Grimm Sykes Sand xbzyas Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Banned Posts: 1,372 Joined: Mar 14, 2010 fighting someone you don't agree with is the cowards solution. unless that person has done something to you, like steal from you or attacked you first. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 6:35 am Last edited Jan 17, 2014, 6:37 am by Grimm Sykes

PvtParty Paceys Raiders Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 692 Joined: Aug 5, 2012 OK, from someone (else) who's not done wilderness PvP, it seems to me that: Squad challenge is similar to SCL. Both sides are expecting the combat, and come equipped. I'm assuming there's CR balancing, and possibly other parameters involved, making it a fairly level playing field (I don't know if there's any skill capping, like in SCL). Intercepting would appear more like a trader hunt scout. The attacker is expecting it, but the hunted party isn't, and could well be using an unarmed/lightly armed courier, or even a convoy of trucks (either lawn-mower powered tin-foil ones, or realistic trucks). There's always the possibility that the intercepted party could have been on their way to a scout hunt of their own, in which case the could be equipped to deal with an intercept - equivalent to getting a non-trader gang on a scout. Why, then, do people seem to prefer intercepts?  Wouldn't squad challenges result in fairer, closer combats, where player skill and tactics become more important than who has the big guns? -------------- For the record, my flag is off due to the fact that I regularly have need for a prolonged timeout when scouting/doing courier runs. I doubt too many interceptors would be interested in sitting around for up to 4 hours waiting for me to return... ......................... vet wv ss2fl67 pvp5 paintball pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 11:34 am

Grimm Sykes Sand xbzyas Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Banned Posts: 1,372 Joined: Mar 14, 2010 Balancing doesn't work the way you would think. If you set CR balancing, it will remove only YOUR cars to match the opponent CR. If your opponent doesn't have it set as well, you could face the maximum CR they can toss into 20 cars. This is the case with all squad challenges. and can't even be set by someone who is intercepted ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 3:44 pm

Juris Hessians Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: Sep 16, 2010 Grimm Sykes said: Balancing doesn't work the way you would think. If you set CR balancing, it will remove only YOUR cars to match the opponent CR. If your opponent doesn't have it set as well, you could face the maximum CR they can toss into 20 cars. This is the case with all squad challenges. and can't even be set by someone who is intercepted I do not believe this is correct.  Setting CR just means you allow the game to drop vehicles for you (which speeds things up significantly).  A wilderness intercept is always CR balanced - but you might have to do it manually A squad challenge is not balanced - you just have to trust the other guy follows the agreed CR Edit: And vehicles are dropped from the 'bottom' of your squad first - so if you want to be prepared for a PVP intercept put all of your 'good' vehicles at the 'top' of the squad. ......................... vet wv pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 race1 zom pvp2 deathrce1 pvp3 combat1 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 4:47 pm Last edited Jan 17, 2014, 4:49 pm by Juris

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Not sure if this thread was created in response to a chat in the lobby the other day.. here is the short version: Big Spencer: "why don't you guys do squad challenges for your PvP fix" Me: "want to do a squad challenge?" Spenner: "nope" Me: "there ya go" ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 4:52 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 capitalists Joel.. they wont fight unless they think they are guaranteed to win... when Big becomes the most powerful gang in the game he will become a PVP tyrant demanding all the little fish flock* to his slaughter! * (probably shoal rather than flock) ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:03 pm Last edited Jan 17, 2014, 5:04 pm by goat starer

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 Alright, gonna take some heat - but oh well. My personal opinion of the whole PVP "debate". The ones I see that are worried about PVP and getting caught in it are the same ones that only solo scout/travel anyways. Personally, those players add nothing to the game, and just play it with themselves. If these players don't want PVP, then use the flag - it was put there for YOU. Otherwise, PVP/intercepts are part of the game. The only reason people are having issue with it is that they believe it will always be unfair. Guess what? It is, and always will be. No one has the same stuff or plays the same way. If you have sent something out for the NPC's to jump - what difference would it make to be a player instead? For all the whining tied with this argument, I have yet to hear any solid stories of intercepts gone evil. I can pretty much assure you that most of the bad intercepts had the Renshai involved. I saw a few go bad - and blamed the intercepting player - and went after said player. Needless to say, the offending player has been away for a while now. I just think that for a post-apoc game like this that players have way too thin skin. Get out and have fun - and don't knock intercepts till they knock you. ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:05 pm

Racing Robbie The White Ashes Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 761 Joined: Jul 3, 2012 Nope Snipe - nothing there to get worked up by, fair comment OK new to PvP, changed the gang around, name etc and went PvP open. A week or so down the line and no intercepts ;-) But what it does mean is that I have that little buzz back when I hit the "scout" button and wondering WTF is going to happen to me this time.............. Which is good I think one of the reasons that town PvP (ie league events) are so nasty is that there is always a few NPCs who dislike/hate you (well as long as you are playing the game right......) and make live tough if you get beaten early by another player. ......................... vet wv northernsummer e2g raceL1 deathrceL1 slay2013 pvp3 ww pvp1 semiprocombat0,1,0 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:12 pm Last edited Jan 17, 2014, 5:13 pm by Racing Robbie

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 Lol - yeah, but trust me there are people hunting you still. The intercept system is a rough one. ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:15 pm

*Bigspenner* Brassicas Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 546 Joined: Sep 17, 2008 Joel Autobaun said: Not sure if this thread was created in response to a chat in the lobby the other day.. here is the short version: Big Spencer: "why don't you guys do squad challenges for your PvP fix" Me: "want to do a squad challenge?" Spenner: "nope" Me: "there ya go" That's just not true , I have never been asked by any player for a squad challemnge ever. Joel I am happy to play squad challenges against anyone who wants to. I have no idea who you have asked that has said no but I think you will remember how much I wanted our SCL bout and how disappointed I was you couldn't be bothered to arrange it. ......................... vet wv combatL1 deathrceL1 paintladder slay2013 pvp4 gwextrav pvp3 marshal pvp2 pvp1 pvp5 paintball e2g Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:32 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 goat starer said: capitalists Joel.. they wont fight unless they think they are guaranteed to win... when Big becomes the most powerful gang in the game he will become a PVP tyrant demanding all the little fish flock* to his slaughter! * (probably shoal rather than flock) Na.. I used to think that about j.s  but he has had the most powerful gang for years now..and has zero interest in pvp.  Some people just hate it on principal.  What I always found infuriating was... this is a pvp game from the ground up.  The scouting /lemming / whack a mole gameplay was added on after.  Then the nerd mentality of never wanting to lose anything comes in.  Sure I dont want to lose stuff either...but when you play this game as long as no have ..you lose that "fear".  So I understand it...but it is in ridiculous proportions with many of our players. Fear of losing stuff ( of even permadamage!) Fear of losing gangers ( of even blue text! ) Fear of losing a pvp fight (I can understand the horror of this to have to listen to someone like firefly brag about it for years) None of these reasons are really valid to me at this point and this age of game...surely some of you can see its winding down?  There is nothing to be afraid of. P.s  cause people don't hate me enough... the show Firefly I watched the whole single season these last two weeks with my woman and frankly the show is ####.  Its a supernerd soap opera.  Melrose place in space almost as bad as new star trek 2. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:40 pm Last edited Jan 17, 2014, 5:42 pm by Joel Autobaun

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 BWAHAHAHA - never watched it. But I don't count for I still haven't watched the new Deathrace - any of them. ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:58 pm

*The X Man* Better Off Dead Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Game Manager Posts: 2,207 Joined: Jul 25, 2012 I did my first real Intercept last night. Surprisingly, I was successful in my attempt. It also showed me that there are some variables that can happen that are not normal. 1) I intercepted a player who was trying to intercept a different player. 2) This intercept was done in Shanty, yet we pull the Swamps of Dagon map (That is a GW to MO map on the other side of Evan). 3) Intercepts can happen in any map, not just gates maps. 4) In event skill training can be double and sometimes triple the normal amount from regular scouting. Getting blue text hits increases your skill bumps. 4) After the match was over, I got an arrival town encounter in Shanty. I believe this happened because it was not a gates map. I was lucky that the town arrival was auto truced because I did not have a scout on board. 5) After the event, I repaired my opponents car. Replaced the 40% engine with a brand new one, added back all armor, added new guns that where damaged beyond repair and replaced all tires. Then I put the car back up in the market for the player. This post gives you some of the things that are possible to happen during intercepts and also shows you not all players are out for just blood. Especially when blue texts shots happened, I asked if player was going to continue before next shot command was given. Intercepts are very CR balanced. So there is NO WAY an uber vehicle with tank guns and lasers that could join and annihilate you in one turn. If your vehicle has a 120 CR, the interceptor has to bring a vehicle very close to that CR amount for the intercept to happen. The only random variable are the gangers brought to the event. There is no control set in place, nor should there be. If you guys really have an issue with that statement, THEN STOP BRINGING YOUR SNIPER 3 OR 4 GANGERS TO BLOWUP AND INTENTIONALLY RED THE IRON MONGERS IN SS! That is the complete definition of a one sided slaughter! The way I look at it, if the CR in the vehicles are balanced, I don't have an issue going up against a player with better gangers. This will make you have to change your "Sit and Shoot the AI" tactic. Instead of playing a one dimensional game of checkers, you are now playing a mutli dimensional game of chess. Now you will have to think for a change before you tap the spacebar! ......................... vet wv marshal paintladder zom circuit3 paintball raceL1 race1 pvp4 hammer circuit2 pvp2 circuit1 gwped pvp5 pvp3 pvp1 deathrceL1 triangle1 combatL1 elmsautumn combat1 northernsummer1,3,0 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 6:45 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 There should be no return. That is a bug. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:02 pm

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 Yeah, I have had returns on many of my intercepts. Sucks because you usually end up more beat up after fighting another player, but I rolled with it. I don't know how I feel about returns on intercepts though. On the one hand, you DID leave town - and as with all times you do this, there is a chance of getting caught. On the other hand, usually a PVP is a good enough fight that it becomes hard to fight or escape a return - and there leaves a better chance of dying or losing equipment. Both ways I can work with, but no returns would make intercepting a bit safer of a proposition. ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:07 pm

Juris Hessians Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: Sep 16, 2010 Joel Autobaun said: There should be no return.  That is a bug. PvP intercepts on a non-gates map can have returns - been like that forever.  Don't know if it's a bug but I don't see a problem with it. ......................... vet wv pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 race1 zom pvp2 deathrce1 pvp3 combat1 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:07 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Racing Robbie said: Nope Snipe - nothing there to get worked up by, fair comment OK new to PvP, changed the gang around, name etc and went PvP open. A week or so down the line and no intercepts ;-) But what it does mean is that I have that little buzz back when I hit the "scout" button and wondering WTF is going to happen to me this time.............. Which is good I think one of the reasons that town PvP (ie league events) are so nasty is that there is always a few NPCs who dislike/hate you (well as long as you are playing the game right......) and make live tough if you get beaten early by another player. Goat prepares an intercept squad..... Make sure you scout with big! ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:12 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Juris said: Joel Autobaun said: There should be no return.  That is a bug. PvP intercepts on a non-gates map can have returns - been like that forever.  Don't know if it's a bug but I don't see a problem with it. I don't really care either way.  But it was a concession in the past to make pvp more safe.  Anyways I doubt it will be fixed it doesn't matter. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 10:15 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Big... Bastard... Mr "ooh what's all this PvP about" then reds Brandi in a friendly squad challenge! If he were not my friend I would be most peeved and avenge myself. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 17, 2014, 10:25 pm Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 1:17 am by goat starer

Groovelle Criminal Underworld Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 758 Joined: Jul 15, 2009 Quote: Not sure if this thread was created in response to a chat in the lobby the other day.. here is the short version: Big Spencer: "why don't you guys do squad challenges for your PvP fix" Me: "want to do a squad challenge?" Spenner: "nope" Me: "there ya go" I was there when this happened. Don't think it was Spenner, but those exact words were exchanged. I think back to the MMO I most wanted to play. Star Wars Galaxies. You could join the Empire or Rebels. Or not. If you picked a side and went overt, you were fair game everywhere. If you picked a side and were covert, you were fair game if you attacked allied NPCs. So, if I was a covert Rebel and walked up to a group of NPC Stormtroopers and shot them, an overt or covert Imperial player could shoot me right back. Made sense. could you imagine how boring and odd it'd be otherwise? As we have it in Darkwind, I can join the side of the raiders, kill civs all day long, and there's nothing you can do about it. If you've got your PVP flag on and are seeing them attack your "side", you have to do mental gymnastics to think of a reason why you can't intercept them. Most of the PVP players are willing to do the gymnastics for people who don't have their flag on. They can just imagine those people don't exist. Fair enough. But, to have people willingly turn on their flag for the added risk and get no payoff... non-PVPers have no say in what goes on with people who have their flag on. They've made themselves 'not exist' to the PVPers, so they should go hunt the Dune Peddlers for years and leave the players who want unknown challenges to get unknown challenges. I'll leave with a bit of an experience I had. Was playing Runescape years ago and explored most everywhere. I'd gone to the wilderness a bit, to see what all the fuss was about, but was afraid. If you went there, people could gank you and take all but your three most expensive items. It was such a fear, I would literally toe the line that marked the wilderness, running across it a few feet then running back while people with skulls over their head from killing another player watched. It was an exciting pleasure you didn't get from shooting the chickens through a fence to raise skill. Fast forward a while, I started saving up for better equipment. I finally built up the nerve to find out just what was in the wilderness. Thing is, the further north you went, the more dangerous. If you just crossed the line, only someone within 1 level could kill you. Go further, and it scaled up. If you somehow made it to the top, you might run into a player 50 levels higher that could magic, arch, or kill you with swords. It was a *thrill* to go into that. Fast forward a while, I saved up to get the short version of the best sword in the game, some second best armour, and prepared to use my best prayer skill. Just crossing the line into the wilderness, there was a guy in full rune armour. The fight was on. I knew he would attack only seconds before he did it. My adrenaline pumped. Hard. Someone just below the wilderness line cheered on me, the underdog in mismatched armour against Behemoth. When I won, it really wasn't about the top quality helmet and gear I took. Hell, I didn't even wear it after that because it was too ugly. But damn, I can't remember another time - from getting into fights in real life to being chased in the city by a roadrager with a gun - that made my adrenaline go so. Imagine what the naysayers would want in that situation I cross into the wilderness. Noone can kill me. I can walk up to the top, the sides, explore its emptyness, then leave and never come back. Why would I want to come explore an empty area with no reward or risk more than once. The fight wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have come back to an empty area just to see what was going on in it. They might say he would have been there and sent me a duel request, but why would I sit around and watch duels on the other end of civilization when I can duel other fishers on the dock, or anywhere else. So they want us to go around sending requests to duel? It's just not the same. ......................... vet wv0,2,0 Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:28 am Last edited Jan 18, 2014, 2:43 am by Groovelle

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