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Camp Warfare, "Infinite" Resources, And More, The Problem, The Answer?

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Edit: Warning, Post is about 8000 Characters long If reading it all my reasoning hurts your eyes to much, skip to the bold part... but that might make understand my reasons for this harder so don't blame it on me if that's the case. This will be a long complex post written with all the brilliance of my magical grammar skills, along with a possible abuse of the poor comma.  Still, If you've got any interest in either camps or PvP I'd like you to stay with me trough this post essay of mine. Alright, as you might have noticed I've had a pretty defeatist attitude towards suggestions to make camp PvP/Warfare work, or darkwind PvP in general and this is for numerous reasons. My main reasons for these complaints is the lack of objective, reason or possibility for any gain from these fights. In a game with persistence and true value on gangers like we have here risking anything "For Fun" is shallow and downright flawed, only very few would actually do this. When we move to something like camp warfare this becomes even bigger as you're now putting a camp at risk for no possible gains whatsoever. But before we get to warfare the ways camps are setup is extremely counterproductive to fighting to begin with, as what is a camp in this game really? For the most part it is simply that, a camp someone or somepeople set that can produce and repair equipment with infinite resources, and that is about the extent of it. I don't really see there being such thing as a "Camp resources" or "Camps vehicles", sure everyone can pool vehicles to the camp but there is no real organization in that regard in any camp I've seen. It's up to every individual player to keep his vehicles and equipment and chip in when it's needed, but I've never gotten the impression of a "Camp Force". For example, Recently we had a small skirmish and in all regards it was not "Fort X attacked City C" but "Player X attacked City C, Player C+B retaliated". Why would it be like this really? A camp membership is extremely non-committal given that our camp to players active in the lobby at any given time is pretty much 1:1 and the only resource that actually matters is camp Mechs. This is were the real problem lies, Infinite production capabilities only constrained by fame and mechs and both are infinite in themselves. Still with me? Let me lay out a list of steps and I'll explain them in detail after they're all laid out. This is pretty much the bare minimum I can see to make this work, even then, it might not work at all due to the low playerbase and how entrenched people are in the old system. 1. Establish a "Resource/Territory" map of evan, with campturable outposts with their own sphere of influence and resource generation values, to build equipment in "Home base" one would need the resources from these "Outposts". The outposts should be up-gradable to provide their own defences and you should be able to hire non-player controlled defensive assets. All outposts are "Open PvP" and simply owning one of these outposts means that you are subject to any of the normal PvP rules, possibly with the exception of SS given we put 0 outposts in this area. This is to prevent Off-Flagged players from shipping gear in and out of camps under flag protection, merchant raiding is very much part of a war after all. All outposts are also subject to individual attack timers, just like Germany in WWII or many other nations throughout history if a "Flag" grows to large on the map of Evan without the manpower to defend it all they will find themselves extremely susceptible to attacks on multiple fronts by multiple factions, the only possible provision being that there needs to be 1-2 hours of separation between every attack on different outposts, with a max of 24 hours between attacks on the same outpost, but this is the most it would ever be allowed to go. 2. Revamp the construction/resource system for camp construction, the resources for camp production is to be acquired based on territory held on the Warmap or to be purchased from other players holding these outposts. NPC influx of these resources should be so low you could only build "bare bone" equipment like pedestrian weaponry. Special types of equipment should also be producible based on holding special parts of Evan. Examples would be along the lines of V8-Turbo engines from resources that can only be obtained from the Sarsfield area, Napalm Weaponry that can only be build with the massive oil resources from Tex, Armour breaking (heat) ammunition that can be produced with the chemical resources from Firelight or reinforced armour from the rare earths in the mountains of Morgan. The possibilities are many, and I bet quite a few PvP hesitant players would be inclined to fight for a small cut of these special ones. 3. Restrict camp membership to a single "Home Flag/Base". While you could be allowed into friendly outposts belonging to other factions you can only do so on an associate/allied provision and you can only "Belong" to one Home Camp/Base. You have to choose to be either a Junkyarder, Vaulter or a Allyeèr, even if two of the camps are allied. This is so people will actually have to choose who and what they join up with, and this will GREATLY cut down on the number of effective camps in the game and this is only a positive. Added to that leading to greater participation and possibly stronger camp communities in the fact of the new requirement to fight for the right to produce goods. 4. Expand the "Vehicle Pool" system, due to the added need of vehicles and equipment for protection of outposts gangers and vehicles should be pooled in a way that ONLY the camp commander(s) can move these, and that they can only be used for outpost defence. A "Flag Vehicle" can be taken control by anyone allowed acces to do so, allowing for players to defend camps using other players equipment without actually having units on station themselves, leading to easing defence across the board if someone is missing to cover a defence. In the worst case scenario "Flag" vehicles should be able to fight under NPC control. 5. Introduce a revamped "PvP Interception" system that would allow to catch travels that have already gone past the gates, players involved with PvP should have to set "Travel Timers" for a few hours per day that can be intercepted like a camp attack can for the duration of that travel. This would make actual merchant raiding possible among other things. Finally, I'd say, drop CR balance entirely to allow rookies to "Swarm" high level vehicles and gangers. It's not fair, but it would give a large faction of rookies powerful weapon to balance out their lack of equipment in a war, the ability to effectively attrition their more experienced and equipped enemies trough sheer numbers and disregard of life, Like the soviets and Germans in WWII. I believe a system like the above would end up more unfair and constrained by a CR limit than without one. Besides, It's not like our CR balance system is actually balanced anyway, it's about as balanced as the sniper spec. I could elaborate more but If you're still with me you must have gone "IS HE NOT DONE YET!?" more than once already. So PvP crowd, Discuss! Anti-PvP crowd? I'll be expecting pitchforks and torches from you as this would effectively take away "Effective" if they are unwilling to engage in minimal PvP. While I was never the biggest proponent on forcing PvP camps is the only endgame we've got and the endgame should be high stakes. Sam, This is to much effort for to little gain, don't you think big man? *poke* Longest post in our forum history? This is why I normally don't try to be productive, this happens! Oh right, Bastille...  ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 9:00 pm Last edited Feb 12, 2013, 9:13 pm by FireFly

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 wait, wot?!? ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 9:59 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 Barring the CR limit removal suggestion (Not in agreement), snarkiness and self platitudes. Points 1 through 5 are interesting. More like a "King of the Hill" Especially pointed here. You belong to a camp or outpost, you cannot belong to another or just as an ambassidorial/friendly low benefits member. Essentally turning DW in a post apoc version of Axis and Allies. Many of the ideas are similiar in nature. Which also turns gangs into a commodity and resource as well. I do however like the idea that camps CAN be somewhat self sustaining, and reliant on it's members for certain things, not just trade amongst camps. Merchant raiding is decent idea, but I believe this would need further exploration and a lot of tweaking. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 10:02 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 We do have limited resources, it's called fame, and i think it works fine, and is simple. What we need is mechanisms to *poke* that fame. Maybe tweak fame a bit if it's necessary ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Feb 12, 2013, 10:26 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 *Tinker* said: We do have limited resources, it's called fame, and i think it works fine, and is simple. What we need is mechanisms to *poke* that fame. Maybe tweak fame a bit if it's necessary Fame is not a limited resource if one can do well enough in the PvP leauge (That's how the junkyard kept running, your blood among other things), Fame can also be bought without the need for PvP. Lastly, extra fame is not required at all for a decently sized camp to reach around 120-130+ MR. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:08 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 FireFly said: Lastly, extra fame is not required at all for a decently sized camp to reach around 120-130+ MR. That can be tweaked then, Also going by your premise that fame is unlimited, you bring up a good idea. Make fame across Evans limited, i.e. from camps, league events etc.., and you can get it from sucking it from other camps if your broke, call it vampiric camp wars. You wana hit raiders to raise your fame to minimal operating levels?  you still can. But it won't do wonders for cranking out expensive items ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:24 pm Last edited Feb 12, 2013, 11:27 pm by *Tinker*

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 Therein lies the core of DW economics and manufacturing schisms. Unlimited supply of money, fame, and materials. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:27 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 But one thing is still precious, that is Time. ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:29 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 True that *Tinker* said: But one thing is still precious, that is Time. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:50 pm

limaechogolf Ravenous Lunatics Racer Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 111 Joined: Jul 22, 2011 My Eyes are bleeding ......................... vet wv paintladder gateautumn raceL1 deathrceL10,1,0 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:51 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 Good point... I'm done with garage discussions. Sry Lima limaechogolf said: My Eyes are bleeding ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 pm

Racing Robbie The White Ashes Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 761 Joined: Jul 3, 2012 Perhaps the best way to handle Camp Wars would be more like town events, where the player has a choice to be involved. A camp could then declare itself open and then be challenged/attacked by other camps. All active members of that camp then could have the choice whether to be involved in the combat. Even though I’m PVP off due to time commitments I would choose to be involved with PvP camp defences where I could. If the camp/player/owner doesn’t choose to get involved then that their camp could take a lost either in fame or production time or even both. Maybe even damage to buildings etc. But have to be careful that no-one abuses the system and just keep challenging the same camp time after time. The winner then gets a fame boost and a production boost of some sort. Could also induce blockage mission/challenge where a camp could chose to blockage another camp to try and stop stuff getting to/from the camp. The length of time that a squad could blockage would depend on fuel etc etc. If unchallenged then blockage camp stops working for that period and no supply runs could reach it – economic warfare. If the blockage camp successfully beats the blockading force then no break in production and fame boost etc etc ......................... vet wv northernsummer e2g raceL1 deathrceL1 slay2013 pvp3 ww pvp1 semiprocombat0,1,0 Posted Feb 13, 2013, 12:52 pm

Blaer Andre Assault Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: Mar 9, 2008 Racing Robbie said: But have to be careful that no-one abuses the system and just keep challenging the same camp time after time. Sadly... if you have to say this... ......................... vet wv Posted Feb 14, 2013, 12:18 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Bah. Sounds like a lot of work for sam, for probably little payoff in the end as the have-nots will just bitch more. I think the same idea (a good basic idea) can be accomplished with a few "PvP tokens" Say one for SS and Elms camps - to provide MR bonus. And one for south camps to provide camp Fame. How do you get them? You win the weekly (or monthly even better) PvP match to take it for your camp. Perhaps weeklys are challenges to see who gets to challenge the champ for the monthly. You fight near the champs camp. starting 100m facing each other, no bull#### scout luck. If someone wants to run at first they run a risk, so these fights should not last for fkin ever, like PvP can. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Feb 14, 2013, 12:49 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 is there not already provision for a lot of this stuff under the current camp system? the fame is not finite, but you can surely get some awesome gains out of camp wars. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:27 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 So far I like ALL of this. FF and Joel especially! (Other than the "Bah" part) I would expect the key to reduce "Have-Not Bitching" would be for there to be some way to reduce the disparity between Have's and Have-Nots without it; 1) requiring some artifical interface like Balancing, 2) making it a welfare state, or 3) requiring Juan-ish amounts of personal time investment. The progression should be such that it is still hard to be top notch with god-ly gangers and equipment, but not so hard that someone with 6 or 9 months time in the game couldnt engage in a fight with a god-vet with 5 years and expect a reasonable chance to actually win. Without handicaps forcing it. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:28 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 *Bastille* said: is there not already provision for a lot of this stuff under the current camp system? the fame is not finite, but you can surely get some awesome gains out of camp wars. Not sure any camp war has lasted even a full week.  Rare - expensive affairs and often Lose/Lose. Ritualized PvP seems semi acceptable even to the huggiest Darkwind carebear. These fights do not risk the camps themselves, their contents nor their current production.  Only thing you could lose is vehicles and gangers(and you can always surrender early to keep gangers). ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:44 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 StCrispin said: The progression should be such that it is still hard to be top notch with god-ly gangers and equipment, but not so hard that someone with 6 or 9 months time in the game couldnt engage in a fight with a god-vet with 5 years and expect a reasonable chance to actually win.  Without handicaps forcing it. Did you even watch zed's camp attack with me...at all?  Do you ever try to acquire information about topics you post on? ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:45 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Joel Autobaun said: *Bastille* said: is there not already provision for a lot of this stuff under the current camp system? the fame is not finite, but you can surely get some awesome gains out of camp wars. Not sure any camp war has lasted even a full week.  Rare - expensive affairs and often Lose/Lose. Ritualized PvP seems semi acceptable even to the huggiest Darkwind carebear. These fights do not risk the camps themselves, their contents nor their current production.  Only thing you could lose is vehicles and gangers(and you can always surrender early to keep gangers). yeah, definitely seems quite costly, but the rewards can be great too? seems I can get some great MR boosts with a few fights I have a lot to learn about camps still, and Im not going to do while at peace with everyone. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:12 am

Ragnak Ragnaks Reavers Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: Jul 7, 2010 MR boosts are not a reward for a majority of camps. The first problem is that a large number of camps are of the small SS variant which are operating near their MR levels already. The second issue is that the MR boosts are hard to manage for a camp since things like factories come active after the Thursday night weekly turnover. Tring to manage the ups and downs of MR becomes very challenging. ......................... vet wv Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:42 am

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