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Spec Balancing Argument

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 This is just a hypotetical example of why I (for one) think the PvP "CR Balancing" is not at all sufficient for a balanced PvP engagement. Data Phoenix with 5 armor all around = 22 CR 1xHMG mounted adds 21 CR "HMGPho-5" Has a CR of 43 Average "Medium" Scout Phoenix used in early Soloing Maximum armor Biter-ish weapons (MMG+one of the 20 space weps) "Medium Pho" has a CR of 114-118 - Situation New-ish player is soloing in SS with a pair of "Medium Pho" as is common in beginning solos to get semi-fair enemy combinations. Noob is using a 50 scout Neg1, a 55 gunner SNP1, and 2 gangers of about 35 to 45 skill with no specs Noob Squad CR about 230 Oops, he has associated with someone that is on a hit list and is thus himself targeted.  The player targetting him has decided that since he has some skilled gangers, he will take a risk. Vet takes 5 "HMGPho-5" cars, each one crewed with a DD1, DR1, SNP3, RapShot2 Driver (D:101, G:101, LG:125, HG:50) and gunner similarly specced but driving insignificant to position. Vet Squad CR is 215 - CR Balancing allows this and considers it "Fair"  Who do you think will win?  add to this the fact that some people are PvP hunting with SNP5, RapSht2 skill 150+ gunners.  and the devide becomes even greater. Personally I'd lay bets on the Vet as winner.  the noob wouldnt even get into firing range before getting cored out by 5 HMGs PvP is broken.  This is one example of HOW.  Im PRO-PvP but in its current state it is untenable unless the opponents are of equal calibur by fate.  God-Vet vs God-Vet, Noob vs Noob, intermediate vs intermedate.  But anyone vs anyone ends up very one sided for the lower eschelon and demoralizes players. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:15 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 That looks like acgreat opportunity for the new guy to take down one or more serious characters. Are you suggesting anyone would risk 5 really good guys in a deathtrap like that? Also for every vet out there in those there would be me out in a cc bpu looking for them. I only have to hit once on each car ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 8:02 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 FYI a single HMG phoenix with NO armor at all is something like 53CR. I have one set up in SS to show you. Also, it's not terribly hard to turn the tables against superior equipment/gangers. Also, also... that vet would gain absolutely nothing while risking valuable characters and he may just get hit by another vet while trying to attack the newb if he's in it for "the lulz" as well as ruining his reputation. Which as you've seen is rather important in such a small community. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 9:09 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 goat starer said: That looks like acgreat opportunity for the new guy to take down one or more serious characters. Only if he can close to 60m so he can actually hit something.  or 35m since we are talking about sub 50's vs DD1 Can a max armor pho soak up that much HMG fire closing to 35m, when the SNP3 Rap2 guy can ram 5 shots per 3 turns (x5 cars for 25 shots over 3 turns) fire down it's throat from 150m out? If I had spare gangers to test it on I'd love to playtest the theory. Goat said: Are you suggesting anyone would risk 5 really good guys in a deathtrap like that? No...  10 good guys.  But some would.  I bet Necro has the walnuts to do it!  I realized this was plausable when someone who would/might try it, mentioned it as a possibility. shortly after I got my rump handed to me in a 6 vs 1 ped fight.  I had 6.  That showed me the power of a 250+ ganger Goat said: Also for every vet out there in those there would be me out in a cc bpu looking for them.  I only have to hit once on each car  Thats probably why no one chances it.  Because they might miss the weak target and end up in a world of embarassing hurt. This was meant as an example of the disparity that can occur under the current "Balancing" system that fails to take into account the importance of the gangers behind the guns.  Specs and Skill (IMO) should be factored into the balancing equasion. IF we had a bigger community it would be simple, "Level 90 Paladins" couldnt enter a "Level 20-29" battleground/Instance.  But we DONT.  So that isnt a solution.  That just limits everything about PvP to the point no one has any fun. I dont have a solution for the issue.  I just see the issue itself and think there must BE a solution somewhere.  Maybe there isnt.  idk.  Just tossing it out for discussion (not for the usual "lets all argue and fight" method) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:20 am Last edited Feb 9, 2013, 11:22 am by StCrispin

Djihani Rollovers Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 899 Joined: Jun 26, 2009 I think that was just an extreme example to point to the greatest imbalance of the game. Anyone saying ganger skills are totally removed from game balance just likes the free difficulty level dump it gives them. I'd be happy to say two identical vehicles with different crews are not worth the same. Both have CR 134 or whatever, but the one with good gunners and drivers does have an edge on the same vehicle with no speccers inside. Any 1-on-1 battle game, say miniature board games will balance unit point values depending on SKILL and GEAR of the fighters involved. The way DW removes ganger skill from the equation is totally absurd from a balancing point of view. Then again the single player side of the game is set up in a way that most of us might need that edge on them badguyses and I bet nobody except for Sere is prepared to let that edge go. But why have CR balancing if you don't have skill balancing? Not that I think the situation would be any better without it. The 20 buzzers on 5 newb phoenixes would prolly be a lot more common than 20 nebs on one vet bozo ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn raceL1 deathrceL10,4,0 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:26 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Serephe said: FYI a single HMG phoenix with NO armor at all is something like 53CR. I have one set up in SS to show you. You are probably right.  I know a non weaponized 5/5/5/5/5/5 Pho is 22 CR and a HMG adds 21 CR to a Merc.  But even at 53 thats still 4 Deathtrap Heavys with superior crews vs 2 fully armored mediums with noob crews Sere said: Also, it's not terribly hard to turn the tables against superior equipment/gangers. Given the correct terrain and spawn locations and some luck.  Also assuming the "noob" is experienced enough to know how.  Though on some maps this may not be an option. Quote: Also, also... that vet would gain absolutely nothing while risking valuable characters and he may just get hit by another vet while trying to attack the newb if he's in it for "the lulz" as well as ruining his reputation. Which as you've seen is rather important in such a small community. As with Goat's message, thats most likely why the persons who mentioned this never attempted it.  That doesnt mean the current Balancing System...  er...  Balances anything.  even 1 car vs 1 car with equal CR, the SNP3 Rap2 will win against a skill 35 zero Spec unless either the skilled car player screws up royally or the lowbie is very very good as a player or gets a lucky break. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:34 am Last edited Feb 9, 2013, 11:37 am by StCrispin

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 lol, good luck St Crispin. I agree and have argued this several times. The vocal crowd are in violent disagreement with the premise that skills need balancing in the PvP area. You've already seen some of the standard answers and replied much as I did. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:59 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 StCrispin said: goat starer said: That looks like acgreat opportunity for the new guy to take down one or more serious characters. Only if he can close to 60m so he can actually hit something.  or 35m since we are talking about sub 50's vs DD1 Can a max armor pho soak up that much HMG fire closing to 35m, when the SNP3 Rap2 guy can ram 5 shots per 3 turns (x5 cars for 25 shots over 3 turns) fire down it's throat from 150m out? If I had spare gangers to test it on I'd love to playtest the theory. Goat said: Are you suggesting anyone would risk 5 really good guys in a deathtrap like that? No...  10 good guys.  But some would.  I bet Necro has the walnuts to do it!  I realized this was plausable when someone who would/might try it, mentioned it as a possibility. shortly after I got my rump handed to me in a 6 vs 1 ped fight.  I had 6.  That showed me the power of a 250+ ganger Goat said: Also for every vet out there in those there would be me out in a cc bpu looking for them.  I only have to hit once on each car  Thats probably why no one chances it.  Because they might miss the weak target and end up in a world of embarassing hurt. This was meant as an example of the disparity that can occur under the current "Balancing" system that fails to take into account the importance of the gangers behind the guns.  Specs and Skill (IMO) should be factored into the balancing equasion. IF we had a bigger community it would be simple, "Level 90 Paladins" couldnt enter a "Level 20-29" battleground/Instance.  But we DONT.  So that isnt a solution.  That just limits everything about PvP to the point no one has any fun. I dont have a solution for the issue.  I just see the issue itself and think there must BE a solution somewhere.  Maybe there isnt.  idk.  Just tossing it out for discussion (not for the usual "lets all argue and fight" method) Ill play test it... if you use terrain you can always either get close or get away a more likely scenario is a a vet getting ganked by a fleet of disposable cars like these with disposable gangers... only new players .. or people with spare gang places can do this... you are worried about someone with everything to lose isking it to kill a noob? never happened.. never will... but a noob (or juans new accound this week) might try it on me.. or longo.. or any vet. and any balancing that involved ganger skill would make it very very easy. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 1:02 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,670 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Crispin you cry all the time about Pvp. If you want balanced Pvp join the SCL. Oh...but then you will complain that your opponent knows the land better, so you he should be handicapped.... what will be next... you need a bonus because the opponent is smarter than you? As for Pvp in the WILD...its in the WILD. You dont need to balance anything.... why would I risk some of my gangers that have been with me for 5 REAL YEARS to capture your junk gear? You just need to realize you sux at Pvp and accept it. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 5:36 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Hello all, nice to see classic conversation still occurs here ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Feb 9, 2013, 5:48 pm

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 3, 2010 Who the hell are you? ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Feb 9, 2013, 6:15 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 You know what, go ahead and do it - make Sam make PvP intercepting even more complicated.. I give a fk at this point because I see its completely useless anyway. I do agree though - it's only fair that PvE should work the same. Also love that these suggestions ALWAYS come from people who never fight PvP in the wild. Since the game is all about seeing those very numbers go up and you guys suggest those very same number work against you - "to make it fair..." the point of the game is then what... just some grabassing in the lobby. You lawyers can have the game, I just feel bad for Sam who might code all this complicated #### in and them watch players walk away from their handicapped old man gangs because there is absolutely no more carrots to chase. If you are going to balance specs...balance skill scores(this is important), balance stats (speed weighs a lot here)...balance psi... balance every single fkin number on that character sheet. You guys never think though the can of worms you bitch about opening. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,98,31 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 6:26 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Longo said: you need a bonus because the opponent is smarter than you? surely we can't put everyone else in an offroad buggy armed with a medium rocket? ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 6:47 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 Again I say why it's balanced now...... here it goes; It's balanced because a noob ganger is worthless, and because a skilled ganger is worth so much. Still confused? Because RISK is a huge factor in this. You spend RL years training your crew then you decide to go attack someone, are you going to RISK your A team or your B team or your C team? ALso I don't ewant to be training my guys for years then have some vet hire a bunch of new hires and roast me alive with a stack of vehicles, no thanks! We already know how unforgiving this game is ffs. ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:20 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 That is a very relevant point. The is that intangible called risk. Also it could called into question becuase now loading up of high end ganger now bumps your CR even more so to get better looting chances as well, which them only benefots those people who have a ton of high end gangers. *Tinker* said: Again I say why it's balanced now...... here it goes; It's balanced because a noob ganger is worthless, and because a skilled ganger is worth so much. Still confused? Because RISK is a huge factor in this. You spend RL years training your crew then you decide to go attack someone, are you going to RISK your A team or your B team or your C team? ALso I don't ewant to be training my guys for years then have some vet hire a bunch of new hires and roast me alive with a stack of vehicles, no thanks! We already know how unforgiving this game is ffs. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:50 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Longo said: Crispin you cry all the time about Pvp. If you want balanced Pvp join the SCL. Oh...but then you will complain that your opponent knows the land better, so you he should be handicapped.... what will be next... you need a bonus because the opponent is smarter than you? As for Pvp in the WILD...its in the WILD. You dont need to balance anything.... why would I risk some of my gangers that have been with me for 5 REAL YEARS to capture your junk gear? You just need to realize you sux at Pvp and accept it. Longo, come on for pete's sake, not helping. Interesting concept, so why do we need CR at all for intercepts?  Why not just let the interceptor take anything he wants? I'll answer, because your comment that nothing needs to be balanced is bunk.  We all think CR should be balanced at the least.  Some of us think it should go further to take skills into account.  Understand that many do not want this, but don't throw out baseless "you don't need to balance anything" ideas when you don't really believe it. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:53 pm

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 Another point... how about this...? Why have ganger with individual stats at all? Make everybody the same and generic. Which in the end still never diminishes one thing, some people.. for whatever reason grasp the tactical aspect of this game better than others. What do you do with these "winners", give them a damage handicap next? Make their guns fire every other round ? Joel Autobaun said: You know what, go ahead and do it - make Sam make PvP intercepting even more complicated..  I give a fk at this point because I see its completely useless anyway. I do agree though - it's only fair that PvE should work the same. Also love that these suggestions ALWAYS come from people who never fight PvP in the wild. Since the game is all about seeing those very numbers go up and you guys suggest those very same number work against you - "to make it fair..."  the point of the game is then what... just some grabassing in the lobby. You lawyers can have the game, I just feel bad for Sam who might code all this complicated #### in and them watch players walk away from their handicapped old man gangs because there is absolutely no more carrots to chase. If you are going to balance specs...balance skill scores(this is important), balance stats (speed weighs a lot here)...balance psi... balance every single fkin number on that character sheet. You guys never think though the can of worms you bitch about opening. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:54 pm Last edited Feb 9, 2013, 7:55 pm by Necrotech

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 3, 2010 St. Crispin, while I get where you are coming from, there's one variable you haven't taken into account. How often this happens. And, seriously, it doesn't. Yeah, you got whacked, by one ganger against your 6. How many of your gangers died or got seriously injured in that encounter? I see your issues, but they aren't really valid, because this kind of thing DOESN'T HAPPEN. Sure, it possibly COULD, but the probability is? Show the replay numbers of the slaughterfests you are describing. Let's see the damage done by the way things currently run. If you can't, then all you're doing is complaining about something that isn't happening, and doesn't affect you anyway..... ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Feb 9, 2013, 8:08 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Actually I rarely lose PvP matches unless opposed by gangers with huge skill disparity (ie: 280 skill sniper 5 comes to mind as memorable) Using your logic we should make PvE in SS significantly harder.  Put in some SNP5 DD2 gangs in SS instead of what we have. This is merely to illustrate an example allowed by the current balancing system to generate discussion on how to STOP DRIVING AWAY THE NEW PLAYERS through adjusting the glass ceiling-ish disparity. Insted you choose to be insulting and make personal attacks. Very classy. Longo said: Crispin you cry all the time about Pvp. If you want balanced Pvp join the SCL. Oh...but then you will complain that your opponent knows the land better, so you he should be handicapped.... what will be next... you need a bonus because the opponent is smarter than you? As for Pvp in the WILD...its in the WILD. You dont need to balance anything.... why would I risk some of my gangers that have been with me for 5 REAL YEARS to capture your junk gear? You just need to realize you sux at Pvp and accept it. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Feb 9, 2013, 9:14 pm

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 3, 2010 Longo is just frustrated because this keeps coming up. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. Folks wanted change because they weren't happy. We got change. Folks still aren't happy. There is always going to be disparity in skill levels. Why should the game be any different from real life in that regard? What is the point of spending the time to get gangers trained, if they're going to be useless because of some new nerf? It's OK to be frustrated with your present situation, but there IS a solution. Train your gangers up. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but that IS the solution. You outline POSSIBLE scenarios where new people could get slammed, but are ignoring the PROBABILITY of that actually happening. I've been here over 2 years, do you know how many new gangs have gotten slaughtered by vets fielding ubergangers? None. In my time here I have seen LOTS of complaining by folks who are upset because it COULD happen. But it never DOES. And folks who are hell bent on trying to have things changed always seem to overlook that. That's why I asked to see some replays where it's happening. You're not going to be able to put any up, because of a gaping flaw in your argument- THEY_ DO_NOT_EXIST. Now, in all fairness, I will say that there WERE instances in the past where this was a issue, this was before my time. These people got banned. (Hell, Darth is back now, which I happen to think is pretty cool.) IF there WERE issues, they would be addressed. And if you step back and really look at what you're asking for, it doesn't fit into the post-apocalyptic theme. "Er, um...Excuse me, Lord Humongous? Look, I know this is the wasteland and all, and it's a rather harsh place, people dying, eating dog food from cans and all, but this? This all doesn't seem rather fair, your gang is quite overpowering, and quite frankly, you are driving people away... Any chance of you toning it down a bit?" What do you think this guy is gonna say? ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:01 pm

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