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Surrender mechanisms

*Ayjona* Edgerunners Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 515 Joined: Dec 6, 2006 After a very annoying scout tonight, I finally decided to post the thread I've been wanting to post for quite some time now. It discusses two peculiar mechanisms pertaining to surrender in wilderness events. It does, however, challenge some aspects of basic Darkwind gameplay, but bear with me. First mechanism - Enemy surrenders I'm certain there is an established reason for enemy behaviour after surrendering, but I simply cannot fathom it myself. Why, in all the world, does an enemy who has surrendered continue to fire at the player, when all that does is motivate the player to destroy him completely, voiding the purpose of the surrender? Except for being unrealistic from an in-canon perspective, it is extremely annoying to have to deal with surrendered cars. While walking the tightrope between surviving the surrendered car's fire while dealing with the non-surrended cars and destroying the surrendered enemy to avoid his fire, wasting lootable vehicles, certainly takes skill, it is a very frustrating process, and one that detracts a lot from the gameplay experience. Someone must have asked this question before, at some point, but why do these berserk NPC bastards continue to fire? And is it worthwhile to hope that this might be changed in the future? Second mechanism - Player surrender I've noticed that in scouts with several player cars, the NPCs sometimes continue to fire at a surrender player car until it is gone completely. Why would a pirate destroy his own source of income? Isn't the purpose of piracy loot? Apart from, just like the enemy surrender mechanism, being very unrealistic from an in-canon perspective, it also voids any hopes of being able to fix up your own cars and save the surrended characters if you manage to win the battle in spite of one or several cars down. This question, too, must have been asked before. Is this supposed to be, or can we hope that it might be changed in the future? Closing comments Most of the time, I don't mind losing wilderness events. It is a part of the game, after all, and I like the challenge of sometimes losing stuff and having to rebuild. After all, the permanent loss of equipment and characters was one of the things that drew me in so powerfully when I first found Darkwind. However, when I lose my car and characters thanks to an overzealous, allegedly surrendered NPC who, in spite of evidently having the rational presence of mind to offer up his surrender in order to survive, continue to fire at me until I either shot out his engine and lose my loot, or is taken down by his berserk post-surrender rage, I get a bitter taste in my mouth and lose all motivation to play Darkwind momentarily (for a few seconds, until my simulated rage motivates me to fetch my CC-equipped Landrunner and go out there again, and shoot everything to bits, not caring how many thousands Evan dollars of loot that are wasted in the process...). I like the losing. But I'd like to experience it without the bitter taste in my mouth of being defeated not by my enemy, but by peculiar and unrealistic game mechanisms. ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Oct 13, 2007, 5:21 am Last edited Oct 13, 2007, 5:25 am by Ayjona

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 Stopping to post this: Quote: an enemy who has surrendered continue to fire at the player No, emeny wish to surrender, he has not, this is a misreading.  ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Oct 13, 2007, 7:21 am Last edited Oct 13, 2007, 7:24 am by *viKKing*

*Ayjona* Edgerunners Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 515 Joined: Dec 6, 2006 *viKKing* said: Stopping to post this: Quote: an enemy who has surrendered continue to fire at the player No, emeny wish to surrender, he has not, this is a misreading.  Fair enough, he only wishes to surrender. But that wish is still an attempt to save his own life, otherwise, why would he surrender at all? So why does he continue to fire, risking my wrath and his own death, instead of driving away, or, if his car is disabled, or if I make it clear that any attempts to leave with the car will result in me attacking again, fleeing on foot? ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Oct 13, 2007, 7:33 am Last edited Oct 13, 2007, 7:33 am by Ayjona

Alocalypse Advanced Race Labs Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: May 6, 2007 Ayjona said: So why does he continue to fire, risking my wrath and his own death, instead of driving away. Because if he surrenders and the pirates end up to winning the encounter then his fate would probably be considerably worse than death. Although the gameplay mechanic itself unintuitive I think it adds challenge and depth overall and shouldn't be changed - you can either blast away and completely kill anything that does a lot of damage and could be dangerous and only try to capture the "easy" weak cars alive - or take a bigger risk and let more stuff live until the end when you get everyone to agree on how much you're kicking their ass. Also now with shotguns and flechettes it might be easier to kill the guys inside so they can't drive/shoot (but I haven't tested them enough). The second point: I think Sam changed it a while ago so they give up on dead cars easier so this probably isn't completely intentional although making the NPCs more careful to not kill your engine would at this point be too big of a nerf to their difficulty I think. ......................... vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont Posted Oct 13, 2007, 7:58 am

pweelg Canis Lupus Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 741 Joined: Aug 19, 2007 From my point of view, i think a vehicle that wishes to surrender, would probably stop fighting or more accruately fight in self defence only and do his best to flee at the first available moment ......................... vet combatL1 raceL1 wv Posted Oct 13, 2007, 11:18 am

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 This has been discussed a long time ago, many times. One point to consider is what is applied to NPCs is also the rule for players, so, if one of your characters decided to surrender using what you are requesting, you would instantly lose control of the given vehicle. This is something, I think, no one really want to see happening. ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Oct 13, 2007, 12:52 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: No, emeny wish to surrender, he has not, this is a misreading Yes.. what is intended when you get the "X wishes to surrender" message is that this particular NPC will surrender if and when the rest of his team-mates agree to it. No surrender is assumed until then. This is identical to how the system works with human players, as viKK correctly points out. I am always willing to change stuff, following discussion, if it seems like an improvement. I quite like the current system, personally - although the wording that is used causes confusion, I admit. If anything were to change, perhaps it would be that 'surrendered' cars drive away from the battle. But that would apply to human cars too. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 13, 2007, 3:41 pm

jeansberg Midnight Marauders Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 252 Joined: May 14, 2007 Somehow disabling weapons fire, maybe? ......................... vet Posted Oct 14, 2007, 12:11 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 We could certainly disable weapons fire jeansberg, but once again be aware it would apply to humans as well as computer-controlled cars. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 14, 2007, 1:08 pm

jeansberg Midnight Marauders Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 252 Joined: May 14, 2007 Yep. I'm all for equality. ......................... vet Posted Oct 14, 2007, 2:35 pm

xander Advanced Research Labs Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 395 Joined: May 8, 2007 Imo that would make scouting too easy. I think its fine the way it is. ......................... vet deathrceL1 gateautumn raceL1 semiprocombat race1 deathrce1 combat1 wv Posted Oct 14, 2007, 2:44 pm

Alocalypse Advanced Race Labs Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: May 6, 2007 The human players would benefit MUCH more from this as we have a significantly lower death rate than NPCs and courage tends to level pretty fast and we'd just weed out the low-courage guys and not use them in scouts or put at least one high-courage guy in each car to delay the surrenders further... If you absoulutely had to make this part of the game easier then I think some sort of stun weapons would be more helpful ( although there's always paint spray which is underrated and underused currently although I think it's awesome, in theory ) ......................... vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont Posted Oct 14, 2007, 9:06 pm

*Ayjona* Edgerunners Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 515 Joined: Dec 6, 2006 I was going to make the same points as Alo, actually, but to incline it a bit differently... Human players tend to put more courageous characters in their cars, which means that often, our character's never surrender, but die (or have their cars shot to pieces) before that happens. This means that having 'absolute surrenders' would affect us much less than the NPCs, but also that we rarely get the chance to continue fighting after we've surrendered. In a way, the early NPC surrenders is both an advantage and a disadvatange for the NPCs. That's why, viKKing, I dont mind seeing both our cars and theirs being disabled completely once we surrender. It would rarely affect players. The most significant situations where this becomes a problem is when you do solo scouts with just one car, and face several enemies. In these situations, surrender means death for the player, but for the NPCs, it just means one step closer to losing, but allows them to continue fighting. Since I am a fan of solo scouts, it is rather frustrating, sometimes, to knock out two enemy vehicles, only to get killed by them while you are trying to bring down the third. However, now that I think about it, Alo and Xander are right. Scouts would be made too easy, and trying to survive the surrendered cars without destroying your own loot does add depth and challenge to the game. So I basically take back my first point, and admit that the mechanism is a good one Though I'd like to see it worded differently, as Sam said. The second surrender mechanism, though, is still something I'd like to discuss. Today, 7 NPCs shot up two of my friends who had the misfortune of turtling in a three-car scout. It meant I could escape, so it was a good thing, but it still annoys me to see the pirates shoot their loot to pieces so small not even wasteland scavengers could find any reasonable use for them except extremely bizarre and perverted sex toys... ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Oct 15, 2007, 5:21 am

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 Quote: when you do solo scouts with just one car You fool! ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Oct 15, 2007, 9:03 am

*Ayjona* Edgerunners Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 515 Joined: Dec 6, 2006 *viKKing* said: Quote: when you do solo scouts with just one car You fool! You know, it is quite possible to label a scout with several cars but only one player a 'solo' scout, thanks to the single number of gangs involved... And hence the existance of 'solo scouts with just one car' In Darkwind, I screw up on an irregular and frequent basis, but when it comes to my language, trust me to know what I'm doing ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Oct 15, 2007, 1:26 pm

Alocalypse Advanced Race Labs Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: May 6, 2007 Ayjona said: In Darkwind, I screw up on an irregular and frequent basis, but when it comes to my language, trust me to know what I'm doing You're bound to slip up sooner or later! And when you do, we'll be there... waiting... Mwhahahahihihihi! One-car scouts are doable though if you have a decent scout with you and get at least halfway decent luck on the spawn so at least that one of the enemy vehicles is weaker and can be taken out quickly. ......................... vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont Posted Oct 15, 2007, 8:59 pm

*Ayjona* Edgerunners Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 515 Joined: Dec 6, 2006 *Alocalypse* said: You're bound to slip up sooner or later! And when you do, we'll be there... waiting... Mwhahahahihihihi! One-car scouts are doable though if you have a decent scout with you and get at least halfway decent luck on the spawn so at least that one of the enemy vehicles is weaker and can be taken out quickly. I see. As in "when you do slip up linguistically or semantically, Ayjona, there will be WORDS..." Yes, I've done quite a lot of experimenting with one-car scouts now (a lot, considering how little time I have to play, that is). And single car Phoenix runs work incredibly well, as long as you use the terrain very wisely, don't mind if the events take time (it is very time-consuming to trick your enemies into turtling, getting stuck, to split them up in order to take them down one by one, or just find good angles to attack from, as opposed to just blasting away with a powerful and well-armored car), and drive carefully so you don't go tortoise yourself. I've less experience with soloing with Landrunners, Apaches and the like (apart form the fluke where I took down 6 cars with just one HMG-equipped Apache), but Rhalp has had very good success lately. He faces down 3-5 cars with one Landrunner, and brings home what few pieces that remain. I've also seen him go out with several heavies, and so far, I've only seen him loose once. And I can only imagine how easy it will be when me and Rhalp have scouts in the 30+ range... ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Oct 17, 2007, 1:28 am Last edited Oct 18, 2007, 6:04 am by Ayjona

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 To carry along the surrender topic, I also found it a little odd the first time a surrendered car shot at me. I think it would be great if npc gangs had some unique personality, which could make itself present in the surrender mechanics. For example when you see Oracle in your rearview, you might know that those nutballs are going to go down fighting. And, they might not be into loot, so they'll waste your cars until the occupants are dead. Other gangs might really like cars, so they'll stop firing when the occupants surrender. Not sure how hard it would be to implement. So far I can't tell a difference between regional gangs (Somerset). Boss, Xena's, etc are all the same to me. ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Oct 24, 2007, 10:03 pm

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