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DW: Scavenger, is live!
*Tinker*
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*sam* said:
1. Subscribers can create a Scavenger gang in addition to their regular gang. You switch between the two from your 'My Gang' page. You only control one at a time. You should exit and re-log into the lobby if you are there when you do a switch.
2. Scavenger gangs and regular gangs cannot scout together.
3. Scavenger gangs have a separate marketplace, so they can only trade with other Scavenger gangs.
4. Scavenger gangs have no access to money, and therefore cannot buy or sell with NPCs.
5. Town $ prizes and $ mission fees are replaced, for Scavenger gangs, with ammunition/bulk goods prizes.
6. Perma-damage is much more severe, and NPCs will tend to field damaged equipment
7. You need decent mechanics to fix equipment or armour. For anyone with less than a 50 skill mechanic, you're basically limited to C armour. But the NPCs are too...
8. Scavengers get a 'starter pack' of ammo and bulk goods. They also get free loan cars in place of the normal rental cars.
9. Food/water must be present in your lockups if you want your characters to stay healthy every Friday at the update. This is calculated at 0.7 units (rounded to the nearest whole number) of food and water per character.
10. Scavenger gangs are all full pvp, everywhere, and have no CR-balancing when their squads are matched up against each other. Return encounters are possible in Scavenger.
11. I have probably forgotten stuff so I'll add things here as necessary


12. playing scavenger gangs stops weekly training for normal gangs.

why is that so? is it a coding problem? i see no good reason for this, it's just a deterrent for playing scavs IMO
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vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont

Posted Sep 9, 2011, 10:36 am
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*Tinker* said:

12. playing scavenger gangs stops weekly training for normal gangs.

why is that so? is it a coding problem? i see no good reason for this, it's just a deterrent for playing scavs IMO



Yes, it was a coding problem, the database query was bringing the database server to its knees. I have figured out a better way of phrasing the query though, so it's fine from now on. Your regular gang will still get training even if you have selected your Scavenger gang as the active one.
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Posted Sep 9, 2011, 10:51 am
*Tinker*
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Now would it make sense that any won events in both gangs would give morale to normal gangs? Just saying one more "deterrent" left i believe :)

Just to clairify,

I'm not having much time to play these days, i would love to just jump into scav, but i can barely get my morale to 200 before fridays
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vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont

Posted Sep 9, 2011, 11:00 am Last edited Sep 9, 2011, 11:09 am by *Tinker*
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*Tinker* said:
Now would it make sense that any won events in both gangs would give morale to normal gangs? Just saying one more "deterrent" left i believe :)

Just to clairify,

I'm not having much time to play these days, i would love to just jump into scav, but i can barely get my morale to 200 before fridays


NO NO NO NO NO.  Separate gangs and essentially a separate Evan. No sharing of morale! Or women! Nuthin!
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Posted Sep 9, 2011, 3:14 pm
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Is there something wrong with races? Just won a plain race in which you didn't use your on car. Got no reward.
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vet wv raceL1 pvp2 combatL1

Posted Sep 9, 2011, 4:07 pm
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The Disco Cats online. B)

More importantly: Thank you very much for this addition, Sam. I imagine it wasn't an easy game mode to balance, test and release. The hard work is very much appreciated here!
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vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0

Posted Sep 9, 2011, 5:23 pm
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Scavenger is the prequel
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vet marshal wv community

Posted Sep 9, 2011, 6:10 pm
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:cyclops:
Holy crow auto dueling road warriors; this is it! Watch out because I foresee a most entertaining winter and future. I have always believed Dark-Wind needed zounds more PVP plus gutter punk feel, and now we have proper gang warfare here after all. Congratulations on tons of grueling work from all involved for this evolving Dark-Wind masterpiece Sam!

LL of CC
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vet wv marshal

*Posted Sep 9, 2011, 9:55 pm
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While I like the idea of scavenger there are things to consider by having a game within a game. To me Scavenger is regular DW in slow motion without the uber weapons.
So instead of progressing at 100% in regular DW, you are now progressing at 25% of regular DW.

Now I understand scavenger will be a test bed for other so called “controversial” features that could upset the community. Though I believe those will be few and far between.

No matter the view, at times scavenger will be partially splitting up the non vet community that does not solo scout. A newer player may be looking to scout in regular dw and have no interest in scavenger, but there may be 5 other newer players getting ready to do a scavenger scout. So the newer player will have to decide to wait for other players, wait for the scavenger group to return in hopes of doing a regular scout, scout on their own or go do something else. This kind of situation will be exasperated by times of the year, like summer when there is less than a page of players during non peak hours.

Scavenger will most likely cause a cascading effect in regular DW at first and could become more permanent as time goes by if that part of the game becomes popular.

Example: For every current player that decides to convert fully or partially to scavenger to scout there is one less scout run in regular DW. This then means less use and loss of chassis, engines, weapons, characters etc..

This in turn means less need to replace chassis, weapons etc.. Which will trickle into the regular DW economy and less and less product will sell over time. For a short time this will have a good effect on prices as regular DW players will be forced to sell for a lot less, which will be good until most items will simply not sell anymore as very few will have a need for them. As time goes on this will affect any camps making product to sell on the market as there will be less players around or have enough time to want to buy and use the product as less will be lost as well. While this may not hurt regular DW as some players have had mentioned there’s to much money in DW, it will change the economy of DW. Players will still be able to make plenty of money doing other things, but the interaction between players in the market will diminish and the solo aspect of DW may become more prominent than it currently is as players will not be able to acquire funds through the markets as they once could.

What currently helps counter the above from happening is fresh blood and as time goes on new players may simply bypass regular DW and join scavenger full time if it becomes popular. Doing this will slowly break the cycle of new players becoming vets to provide product to new players who in turn become vets and so on. Many NPC gangs may become high famed for longer periods with lots of encounters in travels and much more camp attacks than is normally seen.

I could go on, but I think you’ll get the idea that scavenger may be good in one aspect, but may end up affecting regular DW in a negative way as time goes on. Scavenger will probably affect dw in some way no matter your view and both are connected to the most important part of the equation, the player.

Now on top of all that, we still only have one developer with the same amount of time he had before, but now has to divide that time up between the two games. At some point something has to give somewhere as we will now have bugs reports for two games and suggestions for two games etc..

One thing still puzzles me that I mentioned elsewhere, if food and water are working properly in scavenger towns, why are they not working properly in regular DW where the code was originally installed a few years back but was broken/not working for the towns.

I personally would have preferred a community poll like we used to have about what the community wanted to see worked on next. This way we could have chosen from a list of things, like -into the ruins, morgan, scavenger etc.. Unfortunately this did not happen and Sam was convinced through a thread and pms to go in this direction.

I hope things turn out well, but one should consider that it may not.
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 2:17 am
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C'mon Foul, its not a zero sum game. No way vets who worked for 2+ years irl are gonna abandon their gang for scavenger (okay, maybe 1 or 2, but they would've left DW anyway). Besides, how many SS scouts in C grade armor can you do before you want to hop in a twin CC buzzer in BL...

Edit: And I believe the extra time Sam spent on Scab already helped the main game by giving us ped weapons in loot. I'm sure they'll be more stuff like that. I do wonder if he could've spent the same amount of time designing cycles though... :rolleyes:
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 2:26 am Last edited Sep 10, 2011, 2:29 am by Juris
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I like vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Some days I'm in the mood for one, some for another. Having another flavor doesn't mean I eat less ice cream. It's nice to have a different kind of challenge.

I'm not worried about new players not getting into scouts because everyone is in scavenger mode. Isn't scouting with newbies a function of marshals and anyone who wants to grow the player base? I started scouting with Moth recently, he's gotten pretty good in the past month. If I find another new player with promise who will use vent I'll be scouting with him too.

I am worried we don't have enough active marshals. Lately I've seen the lobby with no *'s in it a good bit as some of our marshals have gone missing. And no I'm not looking for a badge, I'd consider myself a marshal of the last resort.

Sam has already said that the games share 99% of the same code. I don't think comparing it to two different games is a fair comparison.
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 2:43 am
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Question: Are there going to be any camps in DW:Scav?


Also, in response to Foul...

1) This game didn't always have so many players and it did just fine.

2) New players really shouldn't be playing the hardcore version in the first place. Much like other games with a higher difficulty setting, hardcore is for when you've already beaten the game. And although there's still plenty to see and do in regular DW, for all intents and purposes if you have millions in the bank and a bunch of apaches and a few buzzers and such, it's safe to say that you've "beaten" the game.

Also, I feel that this is not just a typical "what to work on next" item. Many of us have been wanting something like this for years and I'm pretty sure it's more what *Sam* had intended to make in the first place. Regular DW makes alot of concessions to what people expect out of an MMO and over time that has made it less of what it was supposed to be. But this was necessary IMO, since you would have to pretty much be a vet in that game to have any chance to do well in this one.

*Sam* could not have rolled out this game to begin with. It would have just been too frustrating and would never build a playerbase. I used to play a little Vietnam squad game, and although I know full well it was supposed to be gritty and hand me my ass, the difficulty curve was just too damn hard, and I would build up guys just to see some random mortar take them out. It was too hard for me to ever get any good at, and I gave up on it and went on to something else.

DW:Scav exists for vets. But it also only exists because of vets, and because of years of developing DW.
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 4:56 pm
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Scavenger may fragment the community, but no more or no less than incessant forum flame wars fueled by divergent play styles and requests.
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 5:04 pm Last edited Sep 10, 2011, 7:00 pm by Groove Champion
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I think there will be much possitive for DW normal.

I got a bit 'going through the motions' and goat starting all this up made me think about the world a lot more again. Both scav, and now. I've found it really refreshing. That alone is a big bonus.

Groove, can I borrow you underpants?
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 6:03 pm
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Groove Champion said:
Scavenger may fragment the community, but no less than incessant forum flame wars fueled by divergent play styles and requests.


Well said.
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Posted Sep 10, 2011, 6:46 pm
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Yeah, nothing like dousing flame with Methanol :rolleyes:

Just saying
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Posted Sep 11, 2011, 4:55 am
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*sam* said:
Your regular gang will still get training even if you have selected your Scavenger gang as the active one.


I assume that this is not retroactive.

i.e. My normal gang still has not received training this week nor have they been charged for training fees as I was logged into ScavMode when training hit this week.

Unfortunately didn't see your warning post till after training hit...was trying to be clever by playing Scav when the rollover occured so that I would have as many doods in town for the bonus from training centres when the week rolled over.
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Posted Sep 12, 2011, 3:35 pm
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Lord Foul said:
For every current player that decides to convert fully or partially to scavenger to scout there is one less scout run in regular DW.


Should this become a problem I can think of a few ideas that might address the issue.


*Scavenger as an unlockable feature - perhaps via completion of one, some or all missions.

*Scav as a rules set for some towns eg. Morgan (poss Shanty) - This could also allow progression of characters from standard to hardcare mode and provide a retirement home of brutal dignity for the maimed, geriatric, capped and sack-on-the-spot-after-pinchin-his-handgun doods.

*Scav or Normal mode only available to subscribers.

*Scav as Valhalla/Reincarnation Zone

*Limiting available characters in Scavwind - possibly with a relationship to 'souls' as per above

*Scav as a deluxe add-on to standard sub.

*Scav as an old boys club - like a golf club, requires nomination and acceptance by the fraternity.

*Fade-South: Towns become increasingly Scav like as you go south.

And I'm sure Sam and the community could hatch a dozen more...

However Lord Foul does bring up some interesting and valid points one of which could be addressed with the use of something like this:

Perhaps each interested subscriber (or RC member or whatever) could put forward a concept or feature that they would like implemented, improved or resolved and from this data a list of priorities or focal areas could be created.

In a manner akin to the voting sytems in use in camp environments each week(or determined time period)interested parties could add a vote to the cause of their choice(often but not always their own) which would shift the priorities list.

Obviously Sam could still develop the game in whatever fashion he deems appropriate but it would give him a finger on the pulse of community attitudes as well as building up a database of non-specific demographic information.

As issues brought forward were resolved they would naturally lose prioritization as players put their votes towards unresolved issues.

Having a list such as this could also promote ideas channels in forum discussion and may allow for natural focus groups to occur and further facililitate the deconstruction of the core issues of game mechanics and environmental mythology.

Furthermore I believe that a device such as this could free up Sams time from considering proposals put forward either articulately or vehemently by the lobbyists of various virtual causes...

Through natural synergies and global adoption of core DW values dynamic factors will enage in interplay with social forces to alleviate and elucidate the non-rubber like entity of spacetime critically amassing on Sam further facilitating temporal vacancies allowing Sam to get on and do what he should be doing....spending our subscription money on fine stout and finer whiskey. 

Personally I'm digging what has come from Scav into what i still see as the main game.

Pragmatically ped weapons in loot spawns is the most significant change as the accessability of handguns in DW has always struck me as odd(i loved handguns in CW) (BTW reckon maybe a handful more ammo clips and slightly less rifles would keep the balance right and maybe the occasional prestige wpn like a sword or blk1 combat knife) but I believe the conceptual changes are more significant.

Food, Water and Fuel matter. Skill classes matter more.

Money means nothing.

B)
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Posted Sep 12, 2011, 4:28 pm
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4saken said:
Question: Are there going to be any camps in DW:Scav?


If there are, I hope there are less barriers to having a camp than in DW:Lite. Camps there always seemed to have a "rich get richer" feel to them, and seemed to contribute to the 'broken-ness' of the economy. Maybe if you gather enough starting materials (wood, stone, metal), anyone can build their own camp, even if it had just a single building to start out with, and you could build it up over time. That's how I first thought camps would work...
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vet wv paintladder

Posted Sep 12, 2011, 9:08 pm
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ParaPsycho said:
4saken said:
Question: Are there going to be any camps in DW:Scav?


If there are, I hope there are less barriers to having a camp than in DW:Lite. Camps there always seemed to have a "rich get richer" feel to them, and seemed to contribute to the 'broken-ness' of the economy. Maybe if you gather enough starting materials (wood, stone, metal), anyone can build their own camp, even if it had just a single building to start out with, and you could build it up over time. That's how I first thought camps would work...


I agree with parapsycho here. The "rich get richer" comment rings particularly true to my ears.
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vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0

Posted Sep 13, 2011, 4:16 pm
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