POLL - PvP Regional in DW? (56 Votes)
Yes	44.64% - 25 votes
No	42.86% - 24 votes
Other(Please explain)	12.5% - 7 votes

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POLL - PvP Regional in DW?

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 FireFly said: Tango said: Joel Autobaun said: If you are facing 300 gunners, that player is likely not going to risk them up close and you can prey on that/ take advantage of that. How does one get in range of 300 gunners unless you have the equivalent?  Unless you're lucky with terrain. You remove sniper for heavy weapons, Now you can get in the range of hevier guns, even outrange them with sniper light guns, problem solved. And 300 skill gunners? While I cant speak for everyone else, those people are more rare than HL's, even I only have one 300+, and he capped at 310. Great idea, then we nerf sniper light guns, because golly, they sure are unfair to all those poor heavy guns users. You are chasing an impossible goal. Understand that "fair" has almost nothing to do with equality of results, only the equality of possiblity. Under the current rules, it is equally possible that every player succeeds.  Most of this is crying over how unequal results can be.  And yes they can, for so many reaons that it is imposible manage them. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 1:29 pm Last edited Apr 1, 2011, 1:32 pm by JS

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *jimmylogan* said: goat starer said: no jimmy.. the correct analogy is... you dont want your characters to age? dont do it you dont want your cars to take damage? they dont have to Those are basic rules already in place that everyone lives by regardless of PvP or PvE. They are like gravity - you can't opt out of them because of the laws of the game, like the laws of physics. The rules (or laws) of the game physics are currently such that you CAN opt out of racing, DR'ing, Combat, PvE, PvP, etc. PVP was like gravity before people had it changed to the flag system... all gangs could meet any other gangs in the wild... or as we might say.. realistic scenarios. You are making a completely spurious distinction between the two. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 1:36 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 goat starer said: PVP was like gravity before people had it changed to the flag system... Correct. The laws of physics were changed in this respect and they are now something else. When I first came along, you couldn't get a ped out of a car and flip it back over. That law of physics was changed as well. CR's had *JUST* been reduced to 35 bulk when I started. That law of physics was changed to. The Flail didn't exist, or the Garbage Truck, or the Motorhome - need I go on? Rules are changed and the new rule becomes law. The current law of physics is that there is a PvP flag. This is a hard and fast rule of the game and saying it should be as it was before "just because" is like saying get rid of peds & hand weapons, Flail, Garbage Truck, etc. The correct way of getting this to the way you want it is to make a proposal for a change and campaign for a CHANGE. The basic argument should be reasons the change is needed, not "this is how it started so that makes it correct." ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 1:43 pm

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 What people seem to not realize is that eventually things will even out a bit in PvP. Whether this method is implemented or another, if PvP becomes prevalent, eventually everyone is going to lose their best gangers, and people on both sides of a war are going to find themselves on similar footing. The biggest fear seems to be the unfairness that PvP encounters would include today, without taking into account what things would one day be like. Certainly there will be some lucky/skillful players with better equipment, etc, but they won't be the norm, and they will be as risk-adverse as the majority is, now. We have set ourselves up with no PvP playing because of the great disparity between one gang's skill and another's, but, to my mind, that just sets us up for some great David vs. Goliath showdowns, and the story where David wins is the one that people remember. If PvP had been the norm from the onset, people wouldn't be so at odds with it. There would be no 300 gunners and a flock of Phoenixes would occasionally bag the odd Buzzer. It's the implementation at the current state that really scares people, and that might just be a shock that people need to get over. If it were up to me, even SS wouldn't be safe. Obviously, I voted "No." ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 1:55 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *jimmylogan* said: goat starer said: PVP was like gravity before people had it changed to the flag system... Correct. The laws of physics were changed in this respect and they are now something else. When I first came along, you couldn't get a ped out of a car and flip it back over. That law of physics was changed as well. CR's had *JUST* been reduced to 35 bulk when I started. That law of physics was changed to. The Flail didn't exist, or the Garbage Truck, or the Motorhome - need I go on? Rules are changed and the new rule becomes law. The current law of physics is that there is a PvP flag. This is a hard and fast rule of the game and saying it should be as it was before "just because" is like saying get rid of peds & hand weapons, Flail, Garbage Truck, etc. The correct way of getting this to the way you want it is to make a proposal for a change and campaign for a CHANGE. The basic argument should be reasons the change is needed, not "this is how it started so that makes it correct." This makes absolutely no sense at all Jimmy. Opting out of events is a decision about where you deploy your people and resources. there is a perfectly reasonable reason not to go racing.. and if you don't go racing you don't race. But if you chose to go scouting you should be able to meet anything and anyone who is out there. You should not be able to chose to race against only the AI for the same reason and still get paid. In fact you CAN'T as there is no prize money in custom events. So ultimately I am all in favour of the PVP flag PROVIDED that choosing to opt of this bit of the game ALSO opts you out of the competitive bits of the game (ie. using money, EVER playing in pro events, selling your vehicles, taking equipment from the markets and shops, contributing your mechs to camps etc etc etc). you can have a cash free version of teh game where you dont interact with people who have their PVP flags on. Its the only thing that makes sense. But you want people to be able to have their cake and eat it. OH and I and i never thought I would agree with PT but he is completely right... in our first fight against Asgard we won.. with our good gunners but i lost a 10 gunnery spec lady in the process. Good gangers are not immune in PVP so the game will even out. If PVP were more prevalent camps would become real alliances... newer players would be traken under the wing of vets, griefers would be dealt with by the community, and there would be challenge in the mid / end game. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:12 pm Last edited Apr 1, 2011, 2:16 pm by goat starer

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 goat starer said: OH and I and i never thought I would agree with PT but he is completely right... I guess you've finally worn me down, Goat. ...now don't start trying to do the same regarding the Evan Reds... ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:23 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 The Paranoid Tourist said: What people seem to not realize is that eventually things will even out a bit in PvP. Whether this method is implemented or another, if PvP becomes prevalent, eventually everyone is going to lose their best gangers, and people on both sides of a war are going to find themselves on similar footing. The biggest fear seems to be the unfairness that PvP encounters would include today, without taking into account what things would one day be like. Certainly there will be some lucky/skillful players with better equipment, etc, but they won't be the norm, and they will be as risk-adverse as the majority is, now. We have set ourselves up with no PvP playing because of the great disparity between one gang's skill and another's, but, to my mind, that just sets us up for some great David vs. Goliath showdowns, and the story where David wins is the one that people remember. If PvP had been the norm from the onset, people wouldn't be so at odds with it. There would be no 300 gunners and a flock of Phoenixes would occasionally bag the odd Buzzer. It's the implementation at the current state that really scares people, and that might just be a shock that people need to get over. If it were up to me, even SS wouldn't be safe. Obviously, I voted "No." You we have a third "NO" from a VERY PRO PvP player.  Polls have no fkin use.  PNFU ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:24 pm

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 Like Goat said, this is a watered down concept. Would this option be better (for PvP) than what we have now? Possibly, but not by much. Perhaps I should've voted "Other" like he did. ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:40 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 goat starer said: This makes absolutely no sense at all Jimmy. Obviously we disagree on this point. I see it as making perfect sense, hence the differing of opinion. Quote: if you chose to go scouting you should be able to meet anything and anyone who is out there. I understand your point. My response is still that TODAY the laws of physics (game mechanics and rules) are spelled out very clearly. Opting out of PvP is not "wrong" as it is NOT against the current rules. Again, you're proposing a change of the rules. Present it as such, not as if "opt out of PvP" is somehow wrong. Quote: So ultimately I am all in favour of the PVP flag PROVIDED that choosing to opt of this bit of the game ALSO opts you out of the competitive bits of the game (ie. using money, EVER playing in pro events, selling your vehicles, taking equipment from the markets and shops, contributing your mechs to camps etc etc etc). you can have a cash free version of teh game where you dont interact with people who have their PVP flags on. At that I would vote no, but that's my choice, just like it's your choice to propose it. Quote: Its the only thing that makes sense. But you want people to be able to have their cake and eat it. To you, maybe, but not to me. And sure! Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. You've made it clear what you want the game to look like (your cake) but I'm assuming you would also want the players to support it (eat it too), but I think the playerbase will NOT support such a drastic move. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:57 pm

Kornkob The Dude Urban Achievers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,022 Joined: Jan 10, 2010 The Paranoid Tourist said: The biggest fear seems to be the unfairness that PvP encounters would include today, without taking into account what things would one day be like. Certainly there will be some lucky/skillful players with better equipment, etc, but they won't be the norm, and they will be as risk-adverse as the majority is, now. Of course you are ignoring the fact that there are people playing this game that have no interest in PvP so it isn't about a perceived unfairness that would exist and the eventual balancing effect would still not change the fact that a portion of the player base is simply not interested in PvP-- except of course for the fact that forcing people to participate in PvP would remove the portion of the game they find enjoyable. PS-- I agree with Joel, Polls are useless and serve to prove only that people who are noisy on the forums are opinionated and does nothing to give a clear picture of what the player base as a whole wants.  I still question whether the forums are used by a majority of players in any kind of meaningful way.    ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 1, 2011, 3:06 pm Last edited Apr 1, 2011, 3:10 pm by Kornkob The Dude

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *jimmylogan* said: goat starer said: This makes absolutely no sense at all Jimmy. Obviously we disagree on this point. I see it as making perfect sense, hence the differing of opinion. Quote: if you chose to go scouting you should be able to meet anything and anyone who is out there. I understand your point. My response is still that TODAY the laws of physics (game mechanics and rules) are spelled out very clearly. Opting out of PvP is not "wrong" as it is NOT against the current rules. Again, you're proposing a change of the rules. Present it as such, not as if "opt out of PvP" is somehow wrong. Quote: So ultimately I am all in favour of the PVP flag PROVIDED that choosing to opt of this bit of the game ALSO opts you out of the competitive bits of the game (ie. using money, EVER playing in pro events, selling your vehicles, taking equipment from the markets and shops, contributing your mechs to camps etc etc etc). you can have a cash free version of teh game where you dont interact with people who have their PVP flags on. At that I would vote no, but that's my choice, just like it's your choice to propose it. Quote: Its the only thing that makes sense. But you want people to be able to have their cake and eat it. To you, maybe, but not to me. And sure! Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. You've made it clear what you want the game to look like (your cake) but I'm assuming you would also want the players to support it (eat it too), but I think the playerbase will NOT support such a drastic move. I think you are confusing personal preference with what is good for the game and what makes sense. Your version of what makes sense seems to be entirely predicated on what you would choose or 'how things are' rather than how things should be or what makes consistent believable gameplay. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 3:18 pm

Kornkob The Dude Urban Achievers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,022 Joined: Jan 10, 2010 goat starer said: I think you are confusing personal preference with what is good for the game and what makes sense. Your version of what makes sense seems to be entirely predicated on what you would choose or 'how things are' rather than how things should be or what makes consistent believable gameplay. I think the same can be said for your own position, however.  What's 'good for the game' and 'makes sense' is largely driven by what the speaker's preferences for the game are.  ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 1, 2011, 3:38 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Kornkob The Dude said: I still question whether the forums are used by a majority of players in any kind of meaningful way.    I've also wondered how indicative this poll is of the ENTIRE player base, and not just those of us with no life outside DW. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:08 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Kornkob The Dude said: goat starer said: I think you are confusing personal preference with what is good for the game and what makes sense. Your version of what makes sense seems to be entirely predicated on what you would choose or 'how things are' rather than how things should be or what makes consistent believable gameplay. I think the same can be said for your own position, however.  What's 'good for the game' and 'makes sense' is largely driven by what the speaker's preferences for the game are.  Very much agree with the Kob-Man here... What's "good for the game" is what gets more people paying to play, IMHO. If that's what *I* like, fine - if it's not, then losing me as a paying player and gaining 100 is "good for the game" regardless of what *I* like. To respond directly to Goat's statement - Quote: Your version of what makes sense seems to be entirely predicated on what you would choose or 'how things are' rather than how things should be or what makes consistent believable gameplay. Actually my 'version' was not a version at all. I was just stating how the game mechanics are NOW, not how I think they should be or what I would or would not change. I love this game and will stay no matter what. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:12 pm

Skurvy Simply Skurvy Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: Jul 5, 2010 *Tinker* said: Joel Autobaun said: No one should be rolling BL without 100ish gunners.  They deserve to be punished. Thanks for putting things in perspective, "THIS IS BAD LANDS!" That's not true. Just about every new player here's the litany that they should spread their wings, get that PHO and run like the wind everywhere. New players may not be scouting out of BL, but they are traveling through all of the locations being run up for PVP. Second, for that "run like mad" noob Pho, an encounter with another player isnt as simple as any other encounter they had with the AI. The AI isnt sporting an A armor, 5lv8 interceptor Corghette (all of which factors not in CR). Poor Noob, that 4L B armor Pho pink slip is now in anothers hands. Thankfully, the hard core PVPers here take mercy on the noob and will usually let them go. But they dont have to, nor is there a guarantee the next batch of PVPers will have the same tender heart strings. I also agree with FF and Tango about the ither issues with CR matching. ......................... wv Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:43 pm

*Dark Tempest* The Black Legion Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,049 Joined: Jan 27, 2010 I think that's the exact situation that people are looking for though Skurvy, that's the way I always felt in PvP open space in EVE, and it was FUN, though I lost a LOT of ships and even got pod killed a number of times. The entire grab a pho and run the continent should be a challenge. What you outlined is exactly where I think DW should be heading. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:51 pm Last edited Apr 1, 2011, 5:52 pm by *Dark Tempest*

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 no Jimmy what is ridiculous is a completely IRRATIONAL fear players have of a human opponent, which is SAFER to fight THAN the NPC (we can't enslave each other - a walk home from any PvP fight does not involve bugs, all First aid checks are successful 100% of the time and for the most part might even let people go without losing any stuff if it's not vendetta). What is at stake is, their precious egos might get damaged. I will admit I used to worry about that, after you get beat up a few times (we all have that have PvP'd) you lose this irrational fear. It's just fun. Most players against even this small change, will NEVER be affected by it. Most arguments against it are complete fabrications of reality or mass mis-information that has perpetuated for far too long. I laugh, literally out loud, at most of these fears. It's ridiculous. People, name some examples. Event IDs or it didn't happen. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:53 pm Last edited Apr 1, 2011, 5:56 pm by *Grograt*

Skurvy Simply Skurvy Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: Jul 5, 2010 We see it differently. Everyone loves a challenge. But we dont attend arm wrestling competitions and expect the dark horse paraplegic to come through the victor. It's not a challenge when the outcome of a PVP event is so one sided. It is an event where a new player probably re-evaluates their position in the game and whether to continue on or move to something else. It is in the least very discouraging to new players. ......................... wv Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:58 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Skurvy said: We see it differently. Everyone loves a challenge. But we dont attend arm wrestling competitions and expect the dark horse paraplegic to come through the victor. It's not a challenge when the outcome of a PVP event is so one sided. It is an event where a new player probably re-evaluates their position in the game and whether to continue on or move to something else. It is in the least very discouraging to new players. Back it up.  Who quit? I do you one better.  It's Juris very first deathrace.  Not sure if it is still on his event ID list.  I shot the hell out of him and told him " I don't truce"(which is a bit of a fib).  He loved it, and is one of my favorite people playing. a month or so later.  He kicks the #### out of me in ped combat in gateway. I own that league, that arena and out-speced him up the waszoo and he beat me.  I will never have any advantage like that in the wild. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:59 pm Last edited Apr 1, 2011, 6:03 pm by Joel Autobaun

Skidmark The Vermin Racer Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 102 Joined: Feb 22, 2010 Every time the PvP thread comes up, we have the same folks lining up to support expanding who it can affect.  Basically, you have the gamers that have all the best equipment and all the highest skill gangers thinking it utterly unfair and outrageous that hopelessly outclassed neophytes can opt out of a curb stomping. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I strongly support their right to express theirs.  I just don't agree. I consistently see the PvE community's rights whittled down.  Today we're discussing assigning regions where PvP is mandatory.  The implication is that in the remaining regions, PvP will be optional.  Oh, but wait... it won't be. PVP Rules Clarified "11) Somerset has a special rule: on-the-road surprise attacks can never happen here, regardless of pvp status or camp affiliation, unless all squad vehicles are owned by open-pvp gangs or members of warring camps.**" "** this rule has not yet been implemented " Somerset started out as being PvP free.  When the other shoe falls and this rule gets implemented, it isn't.  If your camp is targetted for a war, regardless of your personal PvP settings, you're now PvP ok. ... And even Somerset won't be safe for you. Now if Somerset, long regarded as the safest noob haven in Evan, can have it's haven status arbitrarily revoked, do you really think that the remaining "non-PvP" regions are going to remain that way? This is just another milestone on the path to eventually making DW a PvP server. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Apr 1, 2011, 6:17 pm

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