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Paint changes

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 *sam* said: The following has just been passed thru the Rules Council. I'll be implementing it ASAP: ----------------------------------------------- Raise CR of paintguns to 16 Remove jamming effects entirely Make accuracy and driving effects much stronger: a car painted once will typically half its gunnery and driving skills; twice will quarter the skills, etc. The effect of multiple hits will primarily increase the effectiveness, with only a small effect on how long the paint lasts for (adding just 1 extra turn of duration per hit). Paint from one paintgun hit should last for about 2-4 turns, from one paintspray for 3-5 turns, and from a ped paintrifle for 0-2 turns. The entire vehicle will continue to be affected, rather than the facing that's 'hit'. I am in complete agreement with these changes. Although I can imagine the effects of this change on PvE events will receive a mitigated response, it will substantially improve the balance of PvP events where paint weapons are involved. In fact, these changes might make them more popular for new entrants to the PvP realm to even out the odds against toughened vets. Excellent work, Sam/RC! ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 3:19 am Last edited Feb 1, 2011, 3:20 am by Groove Champion

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Groove Champion said: *sam* said: The following has just been passed thru the Rules Council. I'll be implementing it ASAP: ----------------------------------------------- Raise CR of paintguns to 16 Remove jamming effects entirely Make accuracy and driving effects much stronger: a car painted once will typically half its gunnery and driving skills; twice will quarter the skills, etc. The effect of multiple hits will primarily increase the effectiveness, with only a small effect on how long the paint lasts for (adding just 1 extra turn of duration per hit). Paint from one paintgun hit should last for about 2-4 turns, from one paintspray for 3-5 turns, and from a ped paintrifle for 0-2 turns. The entire vehicle will continue to be affected, rather than the facing that's 'hit'. I am in complete agreement with these changes. Although I can imagine the effects of this change on PvE events will receive a mitigated response, it will substantially improve the balance of PvP events where paint weapons are involved. In fact, these changes might make them more popular for new entrants to the PvP realm to even out the odds against toughened vets. Excellent work, Sam/RC! Longer range paint guns could be an idea now too. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 3:22 am

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Serephe said: Longer range paint guns could be an idea now too. Completely agree. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 3:29 am

*JeeTeeOh* Loose Cannons Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,796 Joined: Oct 18, 2010 Nice work on the new paint effects! Previously, I found paint to be almost absurdly powerful in its ability to render a vehicle virtually helpless with a couple of well-placed shots. This places it where it ought to be on the "power scale"... it provides a brief but noteworthy tactical advantage by limiting visibility. Thanks for the continual improvements. ......................... vet wv e2g marshal cont deathrceL1 sssc Posted Feb 1, 2011, 6:34 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 The old paint still died long before it got in range of 200m CC shots. Longer range paint that reduces their ability to hit at such a range is a leveler. Shorter range paint that can stop the new guy from shooting while the vet shoots from further back is not. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 6:35 am

4saken The 4saken Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,282 Joined: Jan 1, 2008 Some observations/questions: 1) Do you have an accurate visual representation of how painted you are, since there will be no "jammed" message? Otherwise you might be wasting ammo, not realizing that you're more painted than you think you are. 2) This doesn't affect vets very much, especially at short ranges. I use [used, anyway] alot of cars that had low skill gunners, including people firing weapons that had no weapon skill. An 80 skill character would be no worse off than a 20 even with maximum paint. And if I hit an NPC and it drops his skill from 20 to 5 but he's 20m away he will probably still hit as well. In other words, at the ranges I'd like the paint to be helpful it doesn't seem like it will be. Did the RC discuss this second point? Do they have any access to examples of what the hit numbers would work out to? Or is that left for Sam to tweak out later? ......................... vet combatL1 wv1,0,0 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 4:46 pm

Dreamthief Fast and Deadly Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 274 Joined: Dec 18, 2009 So there's not much point in actually trying to hit an enemy any more with paint guns, just to land it somewhere between you both as this is more effective? ......................... vet wv Posted Feb 1, 2011, 5:46 pm

Zephyr River City Gamblers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 551 Joined: Dec 12, 2009 So in general I support this change.  Didn't want to comment before I had a chance to experiment with solo PVE scouts using paint first.  It does seem to be a bit of a leveler in PvP, I would think, especially the squad combat leagues.  It also changes the dynamics significantly for PvE, but I would not go so far as to say it "breaks" PvE.  Before, I would never leave home on a solo scout without a paint car. It was a no-brainer.  Now, for the same CR I might be better off with direct-damage weapons, it's a tough call- which tells me that it's a good change, as more options is a good thing.  When designing a squad, any "no brainer" is basically a forced choice, and that is bad.  I agree that this reduces the usefulness of paint sprays, as they are almost universally used to stop point-black shots against the spraying vehicle.  They're now about as useful as a smokescreen (which is quite useful). Dreamthief said: So there's not much point in actually trying to hit an enemy any more with paint guns, just to land it somewhere between you both as this is more effective? Yes, I think I may start experimenting with smoke guns as well now.  Which is a good thing, as more weapon choices is a good thing.  I can agree with the discussion here that longer-range paint guns is a good idea, as having a tool against 200m CC / HCR PvP shots would be a good game-balancer, and the new paint rules mean that it would not be overpowered.  Perhaps introduce a new longer-range version of the paint gun, called a "heavy paint gun" or maybe a "paint mortar?"  ......................... vet wv Posted Feb 1, 2011, 7:26 pm Last edited Feb 1, 2011, 10:27 pm by Zephyr

d0dger an0maly Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 2,492 Joined: Jan 24, 2010 Serephe said: Longer range paint guns could be an idea now too. +1 ......................... vet wv combat1 combatL1 paintladder pvp5 sssc deathrceL1 pvp4 zom race1 semiprocombat deathrce1 raceL1 pvp3 pvp2 ww pvp1 paintball santa2 gwped4,16,10 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 9:47 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 I don't think that 200m CC/HCR shots are the 'norm' in the game at all, though by all means possible. I don't think that argument by itself is strong enough (though increasing the range of both cgls and pgs seems like an area worth discussing and considering separately). Regarding paintsprays have become useless as they no longer block fire doesn't really seem to fit either, given that the clouds still affect line of sight as effectively as smokescreens. I would agree that they have become less of a sure thing (but that applies to all paint weapons now). From experience I can say that smokescreens are by no means infallible but do confer a significant penalty to firing (I have missed plenty of shots firing through my own paint/smoke with good gunners). Combine that with an additional penalty from the paint itself, and the ability to stick even more paint on top of that I still think they will be effective (arguably still more effective than smokescreens excepting duration). ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Feb 1, 2011, 10:18 pm

Jose Bagg Taco Killers Autodueller Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 477 Joined: Sep 16, 2010 I am not happy with this change. I am half happy. The paint guns are nerfed, and that is ok. But I am in agreement with the sentiment that paint sprays are going to be useless. It would seem that a paint spray should be immediately effectve against the enemy that is about to light you up at point blank. I would suggest that any vehicle that get paint sprayed, (NOT shot with a paintgun), lose all of its targets. Now they have to take an extra turn to target there guns again and the vehicle that sprayed them gains one turn of relief from point blank fire. ......................... vet wv deathrce1 pvp5 paintball gateautumn deathrceL1 pvp4 pvp30,4,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 2:04 am

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 Jose Bagg said: It would seem that a paint spray should be immediately effectve against the enemy that is about to light you up at point blank.  I would suggest that any vehicle that get paint sprayed, (NOT shot with a paintgun), lose all of its targets.  Now they have to take an extra turn to target there guns again and the vehicle that sprayed them gains one turn of relief from point blank fire. +1 And Paint rifles suck when the target of the NPC are within 30 meters or less, at least from the experience of 1 scout ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Feb 2, 2011, 2:15 am

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Jose, the one area the AI differs from Players in this regard is that they can target and fire a weapon in a single turn, so your suggestion would have a disparate effect. As I said earlier it is immediately effective, just not as definite (if you think that only by blocking fire is the weapon effective then we are going to have to disagree). Tink, read the changes mate and look at the duration of the paint rifles for another possible explanation. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 4:48 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Sent 3 firetrucks out. Got ambushed. All trucks painted. Won anyway. If it was the old paint I'd have lost for sure as the spawn I'd been in left almost no rooom to maneuver and without being able to shoot the atg cars the armor wouldn't have lasted long at all. Didn't really notice that much more missing than I normally do, but I don't really use super gangers. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 5:45 am

Jose Bagg Taco Killers Autodueller Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 477 Joined: Sep 16, 2010 *Ninesticks* said: Jose, the one area the AI differs from Players in this regard is that they can target and fire a weapon in a single turn, so your suggestion would have a disparate effect. As I said earlier it is immediately effective, just not as definite (if you think that only by blocking fire is the weapon effective then we are going to have to disagree). Tink, read the changes mate and look at the duration of the paint rifles for another possible explanation. Fair enough, but paint spray is still useless now.  I run paint spray on my trash trucks because cars get close to me.  It has zero effect on their ability to hit me at such close range.  I guess there might be some use for paint spray on a new type of fast attack supprot vehicle, but for what it WAS used for, it is useless. ......................... vet wv deathrce1 pvp5 paintball gateautumn deathrceL1 pvp4 pvp30,4,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 9:23 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 However on the plus side, the Mutant Mulcher doesn't clog its own paintspray anymore. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 9:26 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I can see the issue with paintsprays, yeah. Could be dealt with in one of several ways. One possibility is that I make it so it hangs in the air for longer, almost as long as smoke perhaps? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 9:50 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Could make paintsprays smaller. Subcompacts need more viable offensive/defensive weapon combinations imo. What's the chances of being able to mount rifles/smgs/etc as 10 bulk car weapons also? ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 9:57 am Last edited Feb 2, 2011, 10:08 am by Serephe

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 *Ninesticks* said: Tink, read the changes mate and look at the duration of the paint rifles for another possible explanation. S308674 Like I said just one experience but at a crucial moment, fire 2 turns continuously on the a scorp that was pretty close to Sere's buzzer, and it hit both turns with both shots, felt completely useless ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Feb 2, 2011, 11:59 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 So basically, paints purpose has been changed from a vehicle disabler to a weapon that allows you to close in on an enemy using longer ranged/more accurate guns? I thought that was smokes job. I still approve of paint not completely ruining my day and pissing me off now though. I get grumpy when I can't shoot my guns off. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Feb 2, 2011, 12:05 pm

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