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DW, New Players & Somerset

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 To be fair, I had done all three types of events before getting into scouting the first time around, which may have helped some but the game still has a very high difficulty curve. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 8:54 pm

Marrkos 88 MPH Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,711 Joined: Mar 28, 2006 IMO, that's not a bad thing. On the other hand, the Desert Hyenas were flagged as 'New Player Fodder', so on some level the curve has been shallowed a bit already. Perhaps making them targetable for longer would alleviate some of the troubles? Or perhaps they should be the only gang a new player encounters? (Can honestly say I don't know the mechanics of the DH-New Player setup, as it was put in long after I was eligible) ......................... vet wv community Posted Sep 1, 2010, 9:01 pm

d0dger an0maly Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 2,492 Joined: Jan 24, 2010 [quote=*Ninesticks*]I, for one, would welcome a larger player base - every time we have a new influx there is always a very welcome breath of new ideas, new skills and new personalities.[/quote] Just so there's no confusion, I'm all for more players. I'm just against making the game easier solely to get more subscribers who won't stick with a game that does have significant negative consequences when mistakes are made. I'm also all for enriching the new player experience. I just don't think making the game easier or reducing the "risk" to your pixelated property and persons in game is the best route to do that. By the way, I hope you new guys that are having a rough time stick with it, make it over the hump and into the 'gravy zone' where all the new players start calling you a vet. You won't regret it. ......................... vet wv combat1 combatL1 paintladder pvp5 sssc deathrceL1 pvp4 zom race1 semiprocombat deathrce1 raceL1 pvp3 pvp2 ww pvp1 paintball santa2 gwped4,16,10 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 9:25 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 9:26 pm by d0dger

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 I'm not gonna sugar coat it like some people are. I miss the days when I scrounged every piece of scrap metal and standard 25% tyres for a penny. I never asked for a hand out and never got one and was having a crapload of fun and thought I have found the only game to play for the rest of my life (or Sam's life). Well i'm starting to doubt that , as this game gets more popular and the casual crowd wants their way (fair enough). I don't want it and will probably play less and less as they get things more and more. Already, bad guys like shark can't really do much damage, there is nothing to fear from "hard core" players if you turn your flag off, and you can keep it on and play in SS without fear of PvP. That's a ####load easier than things were about a year ago. Maybe i'm a minority, but if it keeps up i'm going to probably just stop playing. As it is I do really miss the days when the game was REALLY hard for me, my n00b days. Look at Latte, he basically starts over (almost anyway). It's going to happen to us all anyway thanks to ganger aging. I'm somewhat looking forward to it....if things don't get too carebearish. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 10:06 pm

Karz Master Alpha Junkers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 2,375 Joined: Nov 13, 2006 d0dger said: So did I, the first time... This game not being easy on the first try and something you have to work at and learn is one of it's greatest differences over all the other games out there. Ditto. The steep learning curve is what makes the game rewarding to play. I wouldn't have it any other way, even though I have a tendency to lose my appetite if I lose a valuable ganger or car. That is not to say that the game can't be more intuitive for newbies e.g. interface, but that's a separate issue. I believe that even with a steep learning curve, newbies should have an easier time getting into the game if the interface is less rickety-bolted together. ......................... vet wv zom Posted Sep 1, 2010, 10:20 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 10:21 pm by Karz Master

d0dger an0maly Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 2,492 Joined: Jan 24, 2010 Karz Master said: I wouldn't have it any other way, even though I have a tendency to lose my appetite if I lose a valuable ganger or car. ditto, I've even taken a week or two of not playing much except my squad league matches after such a loss. Amazing though I know, I got over it and came right back for more. It's exactly why we have a gang full of like 50 characters, instead of just one guy with no lasting negative consequences to our actions. ......................... vet wv combat1 combatL1 paintladder pvp5 sssc deathrceL1 pvp4 zom race1 semiprocombat deathrce1 raceL1 pvp3 pvp2 ww pvp1 paintball santa2 gwped4,16,10 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 10:37 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 10:37 pm by d0dger

Karz Master Alpha Junkers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 2,375 Joined: Nov 13, 2006 We're like abused wives. We get ourselves badly bruised by our loved one, and still come back for more. ......................... vet wv zom Posted Sep 1, 2010, 10:44 pm

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 I've been trying really hard to analyze the situation, and the one inescapable conclusion I can reach is this: Darkwind is a game that is both tactical, and strategic.  Tactical concerns are optimizing effectiveness while minimizing loss.  There are of course many Strategic concerns, but the key one to this point is - in any large battle, some units will be lost. This can be a hard hurdle to jump. Our tactical instincts, plus our gaming tendencies, is that we feel like we've massively failed if we lose anything.  It is particularly hard for us n00bs (I know I'm a very old player, but I've never been good enough to succeed when scouting by myself, so I think I'm still a n00b) because we don't have the resources for this sort of thing. Even when playing in group encounters, it's pretty standard, even in a fight that goes pretty well, to suffer losses.  The difference is, there's a good chance it won't be you who suffers the losses.  This, I think, exacerbates the fear of loss amongst folks who aren't good enough to solo yet. I've started trying to think in terms of a certain level of disposability... I obviously don't want to lose my guys, but it is inevitable that it will happen.  I'm starting to try to think about the strategic concerns before I get to a tactical level... toying with the idea of "light infantry" vehicles whose purpose is to soften the enemy and probably die doing it, but in the process weaken the enemy a little bit as well as give the stronger units more time to set up whatever tactics they're going to employ.  Of course, this wouldn't work in a group of players, but in an individual force, the profits from an encounter should be able to offset the loss of some low cost vehicles. I'm trying really hard to get past my risk aversion, and I know I come off as a bit whiney at times, but this game is hard... damn hard.  Especially at the lower levels. This image refers to EvE Online, but it could just as easily refer to Darkwind: ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 10:54 pm

*Wolfsbane* Arbiters Darkwind Guru Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,038 Joined: Oct 9, 2009 That graph (and the whole way "difficulty cure" is normally used) makes my inner pedant twitchy. It implies that EVE is really easy - short time playing gives you a high skill! The axes are all wrong! Don't mind me - I'll be off in the corner, rocking gently. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 cont Posted Sep 1, 2010, 11:01 pm

Marrkos 88 MPH Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,711 Joined: Mar 28, 2006 *Wolfsbane* said: That graph (and the whole way "difficulty cure" is normally used) makes my inner pedant twitchy. Doesn't it though?  heheheheh  ......................... vet wv community Posted Sep 1, 2010, 11:02 pm

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 *Wolfsbane* said: Don't mind me - I'll be off in the corner, rocking gently. heh.  I think you're overanalyzing the situation.  ;-) ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 11:09 pm

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,354 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 You will have newbie gangers die. The first few hurt but you get over it. It hurts a lot more when you have a long term ganger die due to you screwing up somehow and you than spend the next few days reflecting on, "If I would have done this instead, he would have survived" Keep at it and eventually you'll get over the newbie slump. And remember, it is a just a game and there is no reason to get seriously bummed about it since they are just 1's and 0's All of the current "Vets" made it through the trenches, you will too if you keep at it. ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 11:24 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 11:25 pm by *Marc5iver*

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 *Marc5iver* said: All of the current "Vets" made it through the trenches, you will too if you keep at it. I'm not positive I actually agree with this statement... not everyone is capable of being good enough to play this game.  I like to think I am, but past performance has demonstrated the opposite. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 11:37 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 everyone is good enough to play this game... how they play it may have to differ depending on how good they are... and some people will lose more than others.. but its really not that hard once your people get good ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 11:39 pm

Armisius Quiksilver Sunday Driver Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 65 Joined: Oct 13, 2009 [quote=Deathangels Shadow]I guess the main reason I keep arguing for a softening of the curve is because I know, without a doubt, that I am not going to last - yet again. I love the gameplay, I love the community, but this game is just too *bleeping* hard. I know it's self-interest, but I [i]want[/i] to play Darkwind and enjoy it. I know I'm not the only person who feels this way. The first time I left, most of it was because the game was so hard that it ruined the fun. I came back and, as I've posted elsewhere, was stunned to discover that the game had actually been made more difficult in the time I was gone. I love the game so much that I contributed a whole mess of my free time early on making it so we had more vehicles to play with and so forth. This game is important to me, but the difficulty curve causes me too much stress. I'm here to enjoy myself, I get enough stress during the work day, thank you very much.[/quote] My two cents. I love this game too. I've been playing non-stop since about January of this year, but I cannot get any of my friends to try it. One guy tried and 2 of his 4 gangers now languish in Firelight. So he restarted a new gang, his gang leader snapped her neck in a race. He quit. I'm trying to lure him back. But yes, a decreased localized difficulty would be nice. Or a smaller learning curve/difficulty would be attractive. Overall if it was a bit easier for me to Solo then I'd probably enjoy the game more. As it is, I'm somewhat scared to solo especially when I'm to the point where I think i'm ready to scout from GW. But as a busy adult I don't have a bunch of time to play so if a solo scout goes really bad and I lose cars, equipment, gangers then I literally lose MONTHS of gameplay. That is disheartening. I'm not sure how to make any concrete changes to the game to make it easier for new folks or casual folks. But I know that I have unusual patience for a game and I barely survived for a long time. One way to make things a bit easier might be to have one-time narrative events that provide large bonuses to skills for non-veteran players or something to that effect, that way they could have a few skilled gangers quickly that might help them survive longer. A decreased CR for solo scouts or an artificially higher scout skill when you solo would be nice. I'm not sure I'm just brainstorming a bit. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 2, 2010, 12:01 am Last edited Sep 2, 2010, 12:09 am by Armisius

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,354 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Deathangels Shadow said: *Marc5iver* said: All of the current "Vets" made it through the trenches, you will too if you keep at it. I'm not positive I actually agree with this statement... not everyone is capable of being good enough to play this game.  I like to think I am, but past performance has demonstrated the opposite. I see you do not have a very large gang. Are you continuing to add people to your gang with your free 5ive day recruit? Are you paying for training for those who are in SS or Elms? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Are you trying different tactics or continuing to do the same things? You mentioned that you expect to have loses every time out. Accepting loses when they happen is ok, but they should not be expected. I have done many solo scouts where I don’t even take a single point of armor damage, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Are you only scouting with a select few individuals who also expect loses to take place? This game can be challenging at times but overall once you have the hang of it, it shouldn’t be this frustrating for you. I would hate to see the game challenge dropped because in the long run, it will only hurt your ability to get good and the enjoyment when you have a tough scout that you ultimately win and feel good about ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Sep 2, 2010, 12:01 am

ISHOULDCOCO COCO and the BURPERS Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,440 Joined: Jul 5, 2007 I have to agree that there is a real 'hump' at the beginning Maybe a Wilderness tutorial is needed >? a narrative mission at SS but the sub compact thing is a false economy These chassis will get the characters killed COCO ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 2, 2010, 12:19 am

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 *Marc5iver* said: I see you do not have a very large gang. Are you continuing to add people to your gang with your free 5ive day recruit? Are you paying for training for those who are in SS or Elms? Yeah... generally only paying for gangers if I expect to lose them, but taking the free ones and paying for their training.  My leader even just got his Motivation spec. *Marc5iver* said: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Are you trying different tactics or continuing to do the same things? You mentioned that you expect to have loses every time out. Accepting loses when they happen is ok, but they should not be expected. I have done many solo scouts where I don’t even take a single point of armor damage, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Are you only scouting with a select few individuals who also expect loses to take place? I'm constantly experimenting to see what works and what doesn't.  It's not necessarily that I expect losses every time out, it's that in a large number of the encounters I've had, there usually are losses.  The losses are not always mine, but usually somebody walks away with more expense than profit. Especially when somebody suggests hunting Butane on purpose.  ;-) The big thing that I would like to keep in mind when I go with my own set of cars, and have so far (which is why my best guys have survived my failed attempts), is to know when to run away.  Unfortunately, a lot of the tougher vehicles this just isn't possible with. That said, though, I am still going to experiment a little bit with "acceptable losses" as a strategy... I think it could have some application, but I won't know until I try. I really do want to explore the tactics of the game, a lot further than the gun-line. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 2, 2010, 12:19 am

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 ISHOULDCOCO said: but the sub compact thing is a false economy These chassis will get the characters killed Absolutely agree with this statement, if players get comfortable thinking a subcompact is good enough, then move out of Somerset, they won't really have frame of reference for the rest of the world. You know what would probably have the largest impact on the difficulty of scouting in Somerset?  If there were fewer freakin' ROCKET CARS.  Those things are scary.  So scary that I created a database of all the NPC vehicles, and then built a list of every car that spawns in Somerset that carries RLs so I can identify the biggest threats. Well, not the biggest threats, but the most common biggest threat - there was the time that Texas Strongarm spawned a few days back.  YOW, that hurt. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 2, 2010, 12:23 am

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,354 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 If you are even somewhat serious about people suggesting hunting Butane, that is silly. If you feel the game is too hard you should be hunting nothing except "Preferably intercept weaker NPC pirates". That is still what I do on the majority of my solo scouts. Sure the loot is less but so is the difficulty. If you are hunting higher famed gangs, then you deserve to have your gangers die. Hunting higher famed gangs is fun for the challenge once in a while, but not all the time, at least that is my preference. Not trying to sound like a snob but if people are finding the game difficult because their egos are forcing them to hunt high famed gangs, that is not a reason to simply the game. ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Sep 2, 2010, 12:31 am Last edited Sep 2, 2010, 12:33 am by *Marc5iver*

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