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DW, New Players & Somerset

Jet-A1 Critical Mach Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: Aug 1, 2010 Ok, a quick bit of information for this thread. The suggestions here are based upon a new players perspective of the game and I would prefer not to have the old vet vs new player argument as that isn't what its about. The suggestions are from my experience over the last few months and from observations of others I have seen pop in and out of the lobby as well as discussions that I have had with them. I was also asked recently by an experienced player to post the suggestions here. Somerset should be new player friendly ---------------------------------------------- Presently SS isn't new player friendly. It should be set up so that new players can play the game with the skill sets that they start out with. This includes solo scouts or group scouts. You should be able to scout out at 50 miles with a scout skill of 15-20 and be able to have a good chance of survival, not be required to run courier runs to train the skill up before you can get to experience a part of the game. The secondary part of the suggestions is to move experienced players further into Evan which is largely under utilized. To achieve this I would suggest the following; 1. Minimum CR for encounters should be lowered. Lowering the minimum CR is a global issue that I am aware of. By setting up vehicles in the same way rares only occur in certain areas you can ensure that new players can scout in low CR vehicles and have a fair chance of surviving while learning. For other towns vehicles will have higher CR values which would result in them out gunning you if you decide to scout in a single low CR vehicle even if it the enemy is in a single vehicle. 2. Vehicles encountered in SS be limited to subcompacts and small sedans with rares being muscles and larger sedans like windsor 2s. Subcompacts really have little place in DW apart from support vehicles (PG/CGL) or for seeing how far they can be flipped by a RL/HMG/CC/ATG shot. By limiting the SS vehicles the subcompact can be used as a learner vehicle. A low $ outlay for the new player and combined with the lower encounter CR vehicles it won't be out gunned by vehicles equipped with large guns. 3. SS NPC vehicle fit outs only have limited large guns and rockets. Balancing factor when combined with the use of subcompacts. 4. Slaver gang skills are reduced or slaver gangs removed altogether from SS. Slaver skills are reduced to be on par with the new players in SS. This may mean the introduction of new slaver gangs that are in SS all the time rather than roaming like Butane or FLMH. This is my preferred option, although to remove the how to get a out of FL issue for new players, perhaps a kidnapping gang would be better. The gang holds your gangers hostage where you either pay to get them back or you go on a mission to rescue them. Radiation sickness still being applicable and activity reductions due to being mistreated by the slavers. 5. Gangs encountered are based on local or global fame similar to desert hyenas. This allows progression onto harder enemies while learning and can also mean that eventually there will be no enemies willing to take you on. The second point gives the player the not so subtle pointer that they need to move on to the next town, helping to move players along though Evan. 6. Rental Vehicle types changed. Linked to points 1 & 2, rental vehicles are altered to reflect the changes above. Prices also scaled based on the vehicle set up (ie if it has a RL on it its expensive to hire). I'm sure I have missed some of which I spoke about with various people on vent the other day, if so I'd love it if they added it to this or sent me an IM so I could add to it. ......................... wv vet Posted Sep 1, 2010, 2:06 pm

*Wolfsbane* Arbiters Darkwind Guru Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,038 Joined: Oct 9, 2009 That's really interesting. My first thought - why make SS the newbie town? The fact that most of the race and other events occur in SS (PvP leage, almost all player-run events) means that pretty much everyone in the game keeps a large presence there, and that also makes it a good place for group scouts. That means any changes to SS are going to have a lot of knock-on effects. What if Elms was the starting town though? The hospital is a big advantage for newer players, and the whole place is pretty empty right now. It could make a good place to try out some of these ideas. It would also mean the first move from one town to another is more of a gentle step up to playing the "full" game - right now going SS->Elms is disappointing, and SS->GW is tough. On the subcompacts, I'd like to see their bulk capacity upped to around 105 - just enough to take 2 people and 2 small guns. That makes tehm more of a reasonable fighting vehicle, and less of a kamikaze gun platform. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 cont Posted Sep 1, 2010, 2:39 pm

GrowlingBadger Meles Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 722 Joined: Jul 29, 2010 Mind reader. Tremendous. ......................... vet wv circuit2 circuit1 pvp5 pvp4 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 2:40 pm

Jet-A1 Critical Mach Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: Aug 1, 2010 Good points Wolfsbane. I used SS as its where players start now however as you say it could be Elms or any other town for that matter. ......................... wv vet Posted Sep 1, 2010, 3:03 pm

johnny go rancid Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,438 Joined: Mar 24, 2010 thats ace , total whith all the points you have made thair jet. i think a shake up along theas lines wuld make the game much more acsesabul and fun for new players elmes wuld be the perfect town, at the moment its the unused apendix of evan. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 3:32 pm

Marrkos 88 MPH Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,711 Joined: Mar 28, 2006 I disagree that SS isn't set up so new players can play with the skill sets their characters start out with.  Yes, there are some artificial bounds in place, but most of it is because most of the wilderness events launch there. I agree that SS isn't set up so new players can play well with the skill sets they start out with, especially if they avoid the natural training progression already in place: Race (car control) -> Deathrace (car control + weapons control) -> Arena Combat (car control + weapons control + non-pathed combat [+ control multiple vehicles]) -> Wilderness Event (all of the above + coordinate with squadmates), and jump right to Wilderness Events. That jump can be made, of course, but if it's made solo things can get messy. DW is, to its credit IMO, largely progression-less when it comes to the various towns, and I would be bummed to see the continent turned into ... Azeroth (for lack of a better example). ......................... vet wv community Posted Sep 1, 2010, 3:33 pm

johnny go rancid Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,438 Joined: Mar 24, 2010 i think youre vet glasses are blinding you a bit , thare are some big diferances betwean the towns already. i have bean at this for 5 months now and have been happerly soloing ss for 2/3 months. tryed elmes a few weeks back and got my ass handed to me :-( ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 3:44 pm

Jet-A1 Critical Mach Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: Aug 1, 2010 johnny, i think that is the point most people make. Elms gives same rewards as SS basically but is a bucket load harder to deal with. Modifying the gangs around Elms etc to turn it into the new player town may be another option rather than changing SS. ......................... wv vet Posted Sep 1, 2010, 3:46 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 First of I think there are some interesting ideas here, certainly something worth discussing/developing. Quote: 1. Minimum CR for encounters should be lowered. Lowering the minimum CR is a global issue that I am aware of. By setting up vehicles in the same way rares only occur in certain areas you can ensure that new players can scout in low CR vehicles and have a fair chance of surviving while learning. For other towns vehicles will have higher CR values which would result in them out gunning you if you decide to scout in a single low CR vehicle even if it the enemy is in a single vehicle. In regards to SS and even beyond arguably, the minimum CR is as much a trigger to ensure two AI cars are encountered as much anything else. This isn't meant to be dismissive, the balance in SS has been working fine for a long time. To alter this balance there would have to be much wider changes in regards to SS. Which brings me to your next point. Quote: 2. Vehicles encountered in SS be limited to subcompacts and small sedans with rares being muscles and larger sedans like windsor 2s. Subcompacts really have little place in DW apart from support vehicles (PG/CGL) or for seeing how far they can be flipped by a RL/HMG/CC/ATG shot. By limiting the SS vehicles the subcompact can be used as a learner vehicle. A low $ outlay for the new player and combined with the lower encounter CR vehicles it won't be out gunned by vehicles equipped with large guns. Fair point and one worth taking further perhaps. Quote: 3. SS NPC vehicle fit outs only have limited large guns and rockets. Balancing factor when combined with the use of subcompacts. No real issue with this either. Won't take much work to come up with a restricted set of AI designs. Quote: 4. Slaver gang skills are reduced or slaver gangs removed altogether from SS. Slaver skills are reduced to be on par with the new players in SS. This may mean the introduction of new slaver gangs that are in SS all the time rather than roaming like Butane or FLMH. This is my preferred option, although to remove the how to get a out of FL issue for new players, perhaps a kidnapping gang would be better. The gang holds your gangers hostage where you either pay to get them back or you go on a mission to rescue them. Radiation sickness still being applicable and activity reductions due to being mistreated by the slavers. There needs to be a very real threat to the players whenever they scout. The roaming slaver gangs have again been going for ages and have not really caused quite this much consternation before.  Quote: 5. Gangs encountered are based on local or global fame similar to desert hyenas. This allows progression onto harder enemies while learning and can also mean that eventually there will be no enemies willing to take you on. The second point gives the player the not so subtle pointer that they need to move on to the next town, helping to move players along though Evan. Whilst I understand the reasoning behind this, the presumption here is that only new players train up new crews in SS. Also bear in mind that some players are quite happy not progressing beyond SS and like to just have fun casual games there. More established players are more likely to have a higher global fame, also bear in mind that town events generate as much if not more fame than wilderness scouts. As I mentioned elsewhere it really isn't a good yardstick. Quote: 6. Rental Vehicle types changed. Linked to points 1 & 2, rental vehicles are altered to reflect the changes above. Prices also scaled based on the vehicle set up (ie if it has a RL on it its expensive to hire). Again fair enough given the other points. The general overall idea to restrict SS in certain ways to encourage the use of lighter chassis is a good one. How it would actually work in reality is quite an unknown though - what effect would it have on the established players and more importantly what effect would the established players have on it. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 3:59 pm

Marrkos 88 MPH Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,711 Joined: Mar 28, 2006 johnny go said: i think youre vet glasses are blinding you a bit Really?  What makes me more of a vet than you?  We have the same badges. johnny go said:   , thare are some big diferances betwean the towns already. i have bean at this for 5 months now and have been happerly soloing ss for 2/3 months. tryed elmes a few weeks back  and got my ass handed to me :-( Right, Elms is harder because the maps are different and nobody scouts there.  SS is easier because everybody learns on those maps, and everybody scouts there. ......................... vet wv community Posted Sep 1, 2010, 4:05 pm

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Elms does have its rewards too. For me, elms is the step you take after SS. Scout south, east is the same as SS. Newbs will need Vets to show them the ropes, so I think the joint town for new players and the casual fun group scouters is important. I noticed you don't have a Veterans Badge, do you do many town events? I know these are not for everyone, but for me was great fun and the step before scouting. While making money on the track thats when I trained my scouts. I hear your points but I must mention again, the beauty of this game for me when I started was the hardship.  I had a few wins, and quite a few losses. The wins were hard fought, often ending with no ammo and lots of ramming and hiding weak armour and many a death. These are Badlands! And to me the whole point of the game.  I did find it really hard at first, sometimes frustratingly so, but it makes it that much more rewarding when you get the feeling you are getting somewhere. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 4:54 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 4:54 pm by Bastiel

johnny go rancid Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,438 Joined: Mar 24, 2010 Marrkos said: Really?  What makes me more of a vet than you?  We have the same badges. i have 6 months , you have 4 years :-) ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 5:53 pm

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 With regards to making Elm the new n00b town, that wouldn't work because - as you say - all the races are in SS. New players can do nothing BUT race, sticking em in Elm would be a Very Bad Idea. With regard to the difficulty curve, I think what we hear from the vets a LOT is something along the lines of "I love this game because it was so hard initially, I got through it." I think this is ignoring the number of players that run away screaming because of the difficulty curve... yes, YOU managed to get through it, but for every player that has the gumption to slog through the early difficulty curve, there's 20 that get scared off. I understand that a lot of the vets could give a damn if a bunch of wussies can't hack it, but it would be nice to have a larger user base to contribute more money to the enhancement of the game. Let's frame the question a little bit - what if someone were to create a game that was almost exactly like Darkwind, only with a gentler difficulty curve. How many subscribers do you think would jump ship on the spot? I would. I'd feel bad about it, but I'd be all over a gentler learning curve. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 5:59 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 6:25 pm by Deathangels Shadow

d0dger an0maly Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 2,492 Joined: Jan 24, 2010 johnny go said: i think youre vet glasses are blinding you a bit  , thare are some big diferances betwean the towns already. i have bean at this for 5 months now and have been happerly soloing ss for 2/3 months. tryed elmes a few weeks back  and got my ass handed to me :-( So did I, the first time... This game not being easy on the first try and something you have to work at and learn is one of it's greatest differences over all the other games out there. ......................... vet wv combat1 combatL1 paintladder pvp5 sssc deathrceL1 pvp4 zom race1 semiprocombat deathrce1 raceL1 pvp3 pvp2 ww pvp1 paintball santa2 gwped4,16,10 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 6:27 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 d0dger said: johnny go said: i think youre vet glasses are blinding you a bit  , thare are some big diferances betwean the towns already. i have bean at this for 5 months now and have been happerly soloing ss for 2/3 months. tryed elmes a few weeks back  and got my ass handed to me :-( So did I, the first time... This game not being easy on the first try and something you have to work at and learn is one of it's greatest differences over all the other games out there. **Cheers at d0dger** ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 6:29 pm

d0dger an0maly Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 2,492 Joined: Jan 24, 2010 Deathangels Shadow said: With regards to making Elm the new n00b town, that wouldn't work because - as you say - all the races are in SS.  New players can do nothing BUT race, sticking em in Elm would be a Very Bad Idea. With regard to the difficulty curve, I think what we hear from the vets a LOT is something along the lines of "I love this game because it was so hard initially, I got through it."  I think this is ignoring the number of players that run away screaming because of the difficulty curve... yes, YOU managed to get through it, but for every player that has the gumption to slog through the early difficulty curve, there's 20 that get scared off.  I understand that a lot of the vets could give a damn if a bunch of wussies can't hack it, but it would be nice to have a larger user base to contribute more money to the enhancement of the game. Let's frame the question a little bit - what if someone were to create a game that was almost exactly like Darkwind, only with a gentler difficulty curve.  How many subscribers do you think would jump ship on the spot? I would.  I'd feel bad about it, but I'd be all over a gentler learning curve. Let me preface my comments by stating that they are my opinions and perceptions. I don't think Sam presently intends to rapidly expand the breadth of this game, it's programmer base, user base, or commercial success. I think he's perfectly content keeping it a part time one man show at present. If I'm correct, more users, subscriptions, and money for enhancement of the game isn't going to change a thing. I think most of the players here, probably along with Sam, don't want an easier game and don't want the game made easier and easier over a course of time to pander to goal of more subscriptons. I for one believe that exact paradigm has ruined every MMO I've ever played. I think the fact that the difficulty and harshness of this game weeds out a great many players in their early stages is largely responsible for why the players that are here and stick around present such a uniquely awesome and mature community, overall. I for one am very happy with the present difficulty levels of the game, and do not support major shifts in how easy or difficult it is to achieve success. I'm not saying this as a person who goes against change either. I'm all for tweaks and minor shifts and new contents and experiences. My two cents, as a newb/vet of 7 months play time. EDITED: correcting spelling errors cuz I can't type. ......................... vet wv combat1 combatL1 paintladder pvp5 sssc deathrceL1 pvp4 zom race1 semiprocombat deathrce1 raceL1 pvp3 pvp2 ww pvp1 paintball santa2 gwped4,16,10 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 6:40 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 6:44 pm by d0dger

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Quote: With regards to making Elm the new n00b town, that wouldn't work because - as you say - all the races are in SS. New players can do nothing BUT race, sticking em in Elm would be a Very Bad Idea. As it is yes, but that can be got around if the will is there (there has been discussions about this in the past iirc). The point remains the same though, the initial learning and progression curve are really quite steep. I think the overall push of this suggestion is in the right direction - keep things simpler and lighter for newer players. Not only does it help with the initial curve it also introduces a nice incentive for players to progress. EDIT As I cross-posted with Dodger, I would also add that it doesn't necessarily make the game less deadly for new players overall. It just has the potential, with careful thought, to make a mistake less deadly. Not only that it would be giving newer players a better take on the game - in regards to using something less than a tank in a gun line. I, for one, would welcome a larger player base - every time we have a new influx there is always a very welcome breath of new ideas, new skills and new personalities. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Sep 1, 2010, 6:45 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 6:50 pm by *Ninesticks*

Deathangels Shadow deathys Strikers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 658 Joined: Jul 24, 2007 I guess the main reason I keep arguing for a softening of the curve is because I know, without a doubt, that I am not going to last - yet again.  I love the gameplay, I love the community, but this game is just too *bleeping* hard.  I know it's self-interest, but I want to play Darkwind and enjoy it. I know I'm not the only person who feels this way. The first time I left, most of it was because the game was so hard that it ruined the fun.  I came back and, as I've posted elsewhere, was stunned to discover that the game had actually been made more difficult in the time I was gone. I love the game so much that I contributed a whole mess of my free time early on making it so we had more vehicles to play with and so forth.  This game is important to me, but the difficulty curve causes me too much stress.  I'm here to enjoy myself, I get enough stress during the work day, thank you very much. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 6:50 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 6:59 pm by Deathangels Shadow

Marrkos 88 MPH Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,711 Joined: Mar 28, 2006 johnny go said: Marrkos said: Really?  What makes me more of a vet than you?  We have the same badges. i have 6 months , you have 4 years :-) OT for this thread:  That's only one of the many arbitrary distinctions that can be drawn.  You have more than twice the characters I have, and almost twice the vehicles.  Clearly you are 'more' vet than I am.  As far as this thread is concerned, I think d0dger nailed it. Additionally, I think the vast majority of players skip all the 'training' available so that their first few experiences in the Wilderness end up being disastrous. A result of the incorrect, IMO, idea that the best part of the game is Scouting.  So, a new player does the tutorial, and asks in the Lobby what to do next, and the response is almost invariably 'Rent a car, and join a scout.', rather than 'do a race, do a deathrace...' A circumstance that may be driven by the fact that Wilderness Events can launch almost immediately, while there's often a delay for Town Events. ......................... vet wv community Posted Sep 1, 2010, 7:48 pm

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 I had suggested Sam eons ago, it would be good to force players to at least perform a couple of races, deathraces and combats before being granted to scout. Maybe a good opportunity to raise this again to the surface. ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Sep 1, 2010, 8:09 pm Last edited Sep 1, 2010, 8:09 pm by viKKing

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