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Money Cap

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Longo said: Its threads like this one that make me wanna delete my DW icon from my desktop. Be my guest... Do you throw your weight like this for every RC discussion as well? EDIT: When I take a step back and consider the pressures on my gang, money is never one of them. That doesn't feel right. I'm not still arguing a hard cap is the solution, I'm just pointing out that something doesn't feel right with "printing" money at will... ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 2:55 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 2:58 pm by Groove Champion

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *sam* said: goat starer said: the 'currency' should be fuel, ammo, stone, car parts etc... that is not hard to do ... its easy Let's say we're using fuel as currency: - either fuel needs to be 'always available' (so that Jake can always take your loot). Yes, that would indeed be easy - however in this case using fuel is identical to using $. It's not barter at all, it's merely changing the currency - or else fuel needs to be a limited resource, which leads to people wanting to swap their items for other items rather than for fuel (e.g. when Jake has no fuel to pay them with). Which creates the complexity problem I mentioned above. there is a simple difference sam... currency that is USED by people... ie ammo... has a point in game... If you stockpiled ammo you would never be able to outbid people for say.. a camp.. by sheer buying power because people would not want that much of the stuff... if nobody is willing to swap ammo of that type you have to stop using those weapons... by making ammo manufacturable at camps you give them a better point in game (as well as introducing some new bulk goods... gunpowder etc). you dont make it a currency that can ALWAYS be exchanged for stuff.. its only a medium of exchange if people need it. the following things are just true... 1) the looting system means that the game prints money and causes in game inflation 2) it prices players who cant put the time i can into the game out of competig with me for items they might want 3) that is not good for the game 4) the more 'committed' players effectively use cash as a means  of keeping score 5) money is NEVER scarce if you scout even a bit... even when i was only scouting shanty i never had a decreasing bank balance... i still made money shipping looted weapons back to bl and selling them as the return leg of ammo runs. I have been saying this for years (and roundly shouted down by a few 'influential' players)  but its just true. It does not, as groove says, feel right.... nor does it let people who play infrequently participate fully. lets face it... this discussion will once again come down to a bunch of people who want to be able to outbid everyone else for high end items rubbishing any attempts to introduce scarcity or curb the rise in their bank balances... it always does ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:07 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 3:17 pm by goat starer

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Groove Champion said: Longo said: Its threads like this one that make me wanna delete my DW icon from my desktop. Be my guest... Do you throw your weight like this for every RC discussion as well? Its a game Groove. And FWIW, Im in the minority on the RC, and I really have to do my homework and have all my facts in line to get the majority vote for anything I bring to a vote there. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:20 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 There's a definitely a lazy status quo in place, maintained by the infinite flow of enormous wealth. - Gang size is limited by leadership. - Camp production is limited by mech rating (among other factors) - Training is limited by town training caps - Equipment is limited by perma-damage - Money is limited by... nothing ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:26 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 3:29 pm by Groove Champion

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 goat starer said: there is a simple difference sam... currency that is USED by people... ie ammo... has a point in game... If you stockpiled ammo you would never be able to outbid people for say.. a camp.. by sheer buying power because people would not want that much of the stuff... I don't get your logic, sorry. Why wouldn't they want so much of the stuff if they can use it to buy other stuff with? Just because it has another role as well as being money, that doesn't make any difference. goat starer said: you dont make it a currency that can ALWAYS be exchanged for stuff.. its only a medium of exchange if people need it. OK, so we'd keep $ also? goat starer said: 1) the looting system means that the game prints money and causes in game inflation True. goat starer said: 2) it prices players who cant put the time i can into the game out of competig with me for items they might want 3) that is not good for the game Both true, but unavoidable. If playing more doesn't allow you to get in-game benefits, you have a strange game on your hands. goat starer said: 4) the more 'committed' players effectively use cash as a means  of keeping score No harm in that is there? goat starer said: 5) money is NEVER scarce if you scout even a bit... even when i was only scouting shanty i never had a decreasing bank balance... i still made money shipping looted weapons back to bl and selling them as the return leg of ammo runs. I have been saying this for years (and roundly shouted down by a few 'influential' players)  but its just true. It does not, as groove says, feel right.... nor does it let people who play infrequently participate fully. I think you're missing the game balance for new players. Yes, for established players money becomes easy. But if I squeezed the margins then it would get too hard for new players. I have easy-to-change functions available such as changing the 'mark down' that each NPC mechanic shop offers when you sell them loot. I already get regular complaints from frustrated new players telling me its all too hard to get a foothold. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:32 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 What about switching the equipment sell values from north to south? SS' higher payouts go to a southern town (Sarsfield or Firelight) while Sarsfield and Texan payouts go to SS and Elms. Sure new players will get less money, but they'll also be less equipment-heavy in the north and will actually have a monetary incentive for moving out of the comfortable north! ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:39 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *sam* said: I don't get your logic, sorry. Why wouldn't they want so much of the stuff if they can use it to buy other stuff with? Just because it has another role as well as being money, that doesn't make any difference. because if you had too much of anything you couldnt exchange it... nobody would want it. basic supply and demand. Quote: OK, so we'd keep $ also? no.. just ditch it.. if you dont have anything people want you cant swap it for anything... you can still get ammo and fuel and bulk goods from the mechanics for looted chassis and in the end you will have something somebody wants. *sam* said: goat starer said: 2) it prices players who cant put the time i can into the game out of competig with me for items they might want 3) that is not good for the game Both true, but unavoidable. If playing more doesn't allow you to get in-game benefits, you have a strange game on your hands. you do get benefits from scouting more.. you loot more exchangable stuff and you get more skills gain? I dont get your point.. you still get more by scouting more but its MUCH harder to build ludicrous stockpiles. *sam* said: I think you're missing the game balance for new players. Yes, for established players money becomes easy. But if I squeezed the margins then it would get too hard for new players. I have easy-to-change functions available such as changing the 'mark down' that each NPC mechanic shop offers when you sell them loot. I already get regular complaints from frustrated new players telling me its all too hard to get a foothold. sam.. i think you are missing the point COMPLETELY and should try playing the game at a fairly casual level as a new player... the difficulty getting a foothold is not anything to do with the NPC markets its ALL about people feeling priced out of everything by the amount of money things cost. get rid of cash (or as a weaker option cap bank balances and most importantly cap market prices) and you have agame that is much easier for new people to establish in. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:43 pm

LoSboccacc Omnia vincit armor Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 523 Joined: Feb 23, 2010 Quote: the difficulty getting a foothold is not anything to do with the NPC markets its ALL about people feeling priced out of everything by the amount of money things cost. nerfing ss loot mostly aided inflation, while doing not much for pushing people out of ss (specially those like me that likes group scouts - south groups tend to be far in between and smaller) the game balance is such that everywhere you're outgunned and outnumbered, now that gangs have free specialized people it's impossible to man a car for moving south - it takes at least a couple of month for creating multi specialized people that could withstand the southern onslaught so somerset continue to provide a hyper inflated market on which weapons gets sold from veteran to noobs at incredible prices - an atg sold to jake nets you 10k, sold to players 40k upward - that means people stranded in ss are actually the ones foraging millions to veterans. I've just managed to ramp up 500k to purchase a couple of CC from firefly - he has put 14 on the market and I guess that by now everything is sold out - probably to noobs like me that are starting to get their own solo running on somerset and have some cash but can't yet move around ......................... vet wv Posted Jun 11, 2010, 3:56 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 [quote=goat starer] [quote=*sam*] I don't get your logic, sorry. Why wouldn't they want so much of the stuff if they can use it to buy other stuff with? Just because it has another role as well as being money, that doesn't make any difference. [/quote] because if you had too much of anything you couldnt exchange it... nobody would want it. basic supply and demand. [/quote] Your argument still makes no sense. If fuel is used as currency, people will always accept it, even if they have loads already. The fact that it also powers their cars is irrelevant. Or put it another way: if what you say is right, then people wouldn't be selling anything in the market right now, because there's too much money and therefore nobody wants it. [quote=goat starer]cap market prices[/quote] This is possibly the best suggestion I have seen here. It would lead to what is essentially a barter economy for high-end items between players. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 4:01 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 4:03 pm by *sam*

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FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 But... if you did that, cap market prices... that would make it nigh impossible for a newer person with no rares to trade of his own to trade for anything rare... For example, people saving up money to buy mortars, if people cant sell these for what they think they are wroth, and only trade them, how would a newer guy get ahold of one... trade 100 symphony's for it? And I, well, I do like money, but its just a number, I'm rich in all the awesome stuff my gang owns, and I'll take that over paper any day ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 4:12 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 4:13 pm by FireFly

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 Yeah i've been scouting SS a lot these last weeks on group scouts, and boy is it hard to make any money, especially when you got a big gang and have to pay 120k weekly. If it wasn't for a couple lorry runs weekly i'd be broke in a few months What prints tons of cash is solo scouting and advertised missions I think that if you want to hurt rich players something new that applies to them only is in order, but that might spoil the game for some personally i find everything pretty balanced, except maybe the 350 bulk missions paying too much ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Jun 11, 2010, 4:45 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *sam* said: Your argument still makes no sense. If fuel is used as currency, people will always accept it, even if they have loads already. The fact that it also powers their cars is irrelevant. sam.. you seem to be thinking that in some way bartering fuel makes it money..... the thing that makes money money is that it is a eans of exchange.... if everyone has a lot of money its still worth collecting money because it just makes the value of money decrease... it is still WORTH something.. just less. if everyone has a lot of fuel there is absolutely no point in collecting more because nobody else will swap anthing for it??? so if everyone gets a lot of fuel then the person who has a lot of car cannon ammo has the 'real' currency... and if everyone has that then the person with a lot of stone is 'rich' etc etc.. by danamically changing what the shop offers you any time you bring in a loot car you introduce scarcity and need... the basic building blocks of an economy. I really dont understand what you are not understanding unless you think that I mean fuel would always be a 'formal' currency... which could not be further from the truth.    ------------------------- AND firefly speaks the truth... except that even the newest noobiest noob ever can come to BL.. join a group scout and loot a firetruck... it has happened... and will continue to happen. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 5:00 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 5:05 pm by goat starer

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: by danamically changing what the shop offers you any time you bring in a loot car you introduce scarcity and need... the basic building blocks of an economy. I really dont understand what you are not understanding unless you think that I mean fuel would always be a 'formal' currency... which could not be further from the truth.    aha! makes sense now  so the shop offers different 'currency goods' from week to week.. and does it accept any of the various 'currency goods' or only the currently active one? I'd still be a fair bit of work, but not as bad as a full barter system.. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 5:05 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 5:07 pm by *sam*

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 i was thinking that in a RP sense it offered you whatever had come in in the trader trucks and been swapped for something there... in a game sense yeah.. you might give in a symph chassis and get 3 fuel cans one week... or 100 mg clips the next... you then pop them up on an offeres board you create a board where if you have 100 fuel up i can put in what i offer in return... say 50cc ammo and you can either accept or reject the offer... take whatever you want to the NPCs... offer it and they will give you something else (or even a few options) or you can swap it with real people for what you really need. If you have a pile of stone go find someone building a camp. If you have RGM ammo go find latte. but hey.. as you say it sounds like a lot of work.... it also sounds WAY more post apoc The argunent against barter seemed to boil down to "what if it made the game unplayable because there was no fuel/ammo etc". I suggested we should simultaneously up the amount of ammo looted and remove the time it takes to change weapons... that way before i go scouting i can look at what weapons i have, how much ammo of each type i have, and decide what to take... If i only have MG ammo i have to use MGs .... which would be a bloody good thing! ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 5:10 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 5:20 pm by goat starer

Snakebit GridIron Greats Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: Feb 26, 2010 I don't support a money cap. I would support a "high roller" arena or event(s) or storyline. Something that would only be available if you had say, 50 million in cash just to apply for. A high percentage (not flat) fee gains you entry. A series of races that use unique race tracks not available anywhere else. Or a special scouting event that is prebuilt. Perhaps the ability to buy into a "high roller" league that has access to a draft class of gangers that begin with higher than normal stats and are restricted to league events. Hold the draft every so often, charge bigtime fees, big fees for league maintenance. Rewards should be non-game influening. Like badges on the webpage, or special skins that signify participation in the event. Or influene with an NPC faction. Then use the money from the fee payers to enrich guys like me. ......................... vet wv Posted Jun 11, 2010, 6:31 pm Last edited Jun 11, 2010, 7:10 pm by Snakebit

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 goat starer said: in a game sense yeah.. you might give in a symph chassis and get 3 fuel cans one week... or 100 mg clips the next... you then pop them up on an offeres board I actually like this fluid system... Quote: you create a board where if you have 100 fuel up i can put in what i offer in return... say 50cc ammo and you can either accept or reject the offer... also like... Quote: take whatever you want to the NPCs... offer it and they will give you something else (or even a few options) or you can swap it with real people for what you really need. agreed Quote: The argunent against barter seemed to boil down to "what if it made the game unplayable because there was no fuel/ammo etc". This is the crux of the matter, IMHO... Just like fuel CANS can be non-existant in a town, you can always refuel a vehicle (or else you can't scout or travel at all). Ammo is always available, so you can always refill a weapon, etc. We just have to make sure that nothing prevents playing the game. Yes, you might have to modify the weapons used, as you say (I do this at camp now, if I run low of stocked ammo on something), but choices do not a bad game make - quite the contrary... ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 6:37 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 I think tires are a good currency. Everyone needs them, everyone has them, everyone buys and sells them every day ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 6:53 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 What exactly is the problem we are trying to "fix" here? ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 7:27 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Money being quasi-infinite for many players. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Jun 11, 2010, 7:43 pm

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