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Stress rules

Karz Master Alpha Junkers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 2,375 Joined: Nov 13, 2006 *Ninesticks* said: I am sure suggestions about improving the AI behaviour will always be well received by Sam. Shh. Do you really want SkynetDarkwind's AI to be self-aware by 2012?  ......................... vet wv zom Posted May 19, 2010, 8:11 pm

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 Since this thread has turned into something of a referendum on mega scouts, I will suggest this (have I suggested it before?) A gigantic convoy of vehicles is near impossible to conceal. Therefore, mega scouts should almost always be ambushed. ......................... vet wv Posted May 19, 2010, 8:11 pm

Studman Studly Men Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: Dec 14, 2006 or a pop up for the squad leader (npc car x is trying to escape allow it?) that would take it out of the event. then make it an option to turn on/off those prompts in the squad page? ......................... vet wv Posted May 19, 2010, 8:12 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Studman said: or a pop up for the squad leader (npc car x is trying to escape allow it?) that would take it out of the event. Good call. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted May 19, 2010, 8:13 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 I think that may have been to do with the old 'patrol' type behaviour (maintaining force coherence behaviour) you would see with the AI once it was beyond a certain distance where it would slow down to 20-30mph and bimble about. Not sure if that is still in effect as I don't tend to run my cars a long way now before picking a spot to fight from. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted May 19, 2010, 8:13 pm

Karz Master Alpha Junkers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 2,375 Joined: Nov 13, 2006 Studman said: or a pop up for the squad leader (npc car x is trying to escape allow it?) that would take it out of the event. then make it an option to turn on/off those prompts in the squad page? I suggested this before, but everyone - and I stress everyone - in that thread was against it. Sad. But yes, sometimes scouts are unnecessarily longer than they should be for that reason. ......................... vet wv zom Posted May 19, 2010, 8:20 pm Last edited May 19, 2010, 8:21 pm by Karz Master

Studman Studly Men Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Karz Master said: Studman said: or a pop up for the squad leader (npc car x is trying to escape allow it?) that would take it out of the event. then make it an option to turn on/off those prompts in the squad page? I suggested this before, but everyone - and I stress everyone - in that thread was against it. Sad. But yes, sometimes scouts are unnecessarily longer than they should be for that reason. Welcome to the darkwind community ......................... vet wv Posted May 19, 2010, 8:21 pm

Karz Master Alpha Junkers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 2,375 Joined: Nov 13, 2006 *Ninesticks* said: I think that may have been to do with the old 'patrol' type behaviour (maintaining force coherence behaviour) you would see with the AI once it was beyond a certain distance where it would slow down to 20-30mph and bimble about. Not sure if that is still in effect as I don't tend to run my cars a long way now before picking a spot to fight from. Yeah some time ago they used to climb a mountain and just stay there. It was really annoying especially if you couldn't climb said mountain. You could have redded every other car, and if they had high courage, they'd still stay there and annoy the heck out of you until you spend 10 minutes trying to get your car to a very specific location to shoot them down before they finally demo. Or, just set the game to auto-end turn until their stress eventually hit the threshold, but that takes an ass of a long time and does not add any value to the gameplay at all. I haven't seen that phenomenon lately, so I guess the AI's wisened up, but I have seen AI running around in circles instead of outrightly escaping - sometimes when I purposely let them run off, they'd even do a 180 and turn around in my direction, as if to say "nyah nyah can't catch me, now I'm gonna make your scout last 10 mins longer". Really grating. ......................... vet wv zom Posted May 19, 2010, 8:26 pm Last edited May 19, 2010, 8:27 pm by Karz Master

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 *Ninesticks* said: I think that may have been to do with the old 'patrol' type behaviour (maintaining force coherence behaviour) you would see with the AI once it was beyond a certain distance where it would slow down to 20-30mph and bimble about. Not sure if that is still in effect as I don't tend to run my cars a long way now before picking a spot to fight from. they still do this a bit.  I've seen them regroup if I get them strung too much.  Not 100% but happens, there is an art to keeping them coming while stringing them enough you don't have 4 of them hammering one yours. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted May 19, 2010, 8:32 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 simonmaxhill said: Since this thread has turned into something of a referendum on mega scouts, I will suggest this (have I suggested it before?) A gigantic convoy of vehicles is near impossible to conceal.  Therefore, mega scouts should almost always be ambushed. Isn't that a mega ambush, and by your logic, the ambush should be difficult to conceal/execute.  Large formations are usually not ambushed historically speaking, because they are too large to effectively do so as an ambush requires giving away concentration of force for suprise, which is fleeting. That aside, I just got done with a 5000+ CR trader hunt in GW.  Took over 3 hours.  We killed nearly every single person in the guard vehicles.  Had to blue some of the traders as well.  Were firing 2 TGs and 8 Mortars into them for too many turns to count.  Might have dialed it back a bit too much I think.  If the idea is to kill the mega (then why a 20 car limit?) then mission nearly accomplished.  I know I will not be doing any for a while until this gets sorted, or not if it stays the same, which is a shame because I enjoyed the heck out of it. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted May 19, 2010, 8:38 pm

Kornkob The Dude Urban Achievers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,022 Joined: Jan 10, 2010 JS-- I have to disagree. When an attacking force is outnumbered or outgunned (as the AI seems to be for every mega I've been on) by a convoy there is really only one logical option: a series of complex ambushes. I think megas should be ambushed and the AI should hit and run (unless they start dominating the mega by some miracle). Then there should pretty much certainly be a return and the same should happen again. (oh-- and really we should break out the 'mega scout balanacing' discussion from the 'stress discussion' since the mega scout balance is a complex issue that ranges far beyond mere stress behavior) ......................... vet wv Posted May 19, 2010, 8:50 pm Last edited May 19, 2010, 8:58 pm by Kornkob The Dude

Flether Orions Blades Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: Sep 23, 2009 I made an attempt to read everything said in order to give the best response possible, but I got immensely tired of the bitching/counter-bitching. So sorry if any of this has been said previously or changed since the first 3 pages. While I see the logic in making it a non-linear system, I disagree with everyone turning target on FF and totally smacking him. The cascade effect is used by just about everyone who's ever done a scout, and one generally counts on it to not have to blast absolutely everything into tiny tiny tiny little bits, on any scout that has more enemies than friendlies. And in to response that the same thing should happen in smaller scouts (where half of a force is wiped out fast), the psychology of that (imo) would be so that a smaller battle is more vicious, and much much more personal, and thereby more of a fight to the death. The bigger they are, the harder they fall indeed. Either way, until I see another mega-scout happen, and get the chance to see just how much difference it makes, I personally find the mass-demo effect to be quite realistic and a function of reality that's only logical to use. And to any people who go "Where's your PHD in psychology" or something equally witty, I don't have one, but I do have a reasonable amount of knowledge from my interest in behavioral sciences and the paper I'm currently writing. ......................... wv vet Posted May 19, 2010, 9:52 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 truth is people dont generally surrender unless they face ovewhealming odds... or dont have a reason to fight... that history not psychology. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted May 19, 2010, 10:04 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Ermm well regarding the response FF gets I would say 'It is not always what you say it is the way you say it'. Add in all the other ingredients that FF seems to bring from time to time and you will get a negative response from those who cannot/will not sit on their hands when irritated. Even with the best of efforts, I don't see this changing until one, or hopefully all parties do things differently. As things were, the stress system was unbalanced towards larger scouts. All that happens now is that people who go on larger scouts have to do the same as people who go on smaller scouts. I fail to understand why this should strike people as unfair. Is it really unfair that people would have to actually shoot and damage a car to loot it? The earlier comment about having to blue text a trader to get them to demo as a sign of how bad this change was - made me laugh - a lot. Reality arguments whilst informative are by no means decisive. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted May 19, 2010, 10:06 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 I remember a scout in BL, we had something like 4 buzzers and a few apaches in our squad, we ran a bit out of sight of the npc and turned to absolutely red the first few cars with HFTs and CC, the next wave came in and it was a regular battle, by the time they demoed the last of the stragglers raced in and as soon as they turned and saw the carnage the 2 or 3 of them just gave up, it felts so realistic Again this was not some major mega, and there was no mortars, but seing them demoe like that was very gratifying and fun just wanted to say that but the non-linear aspect of moral loss is good, but probably suited to clustered groups, not for a large number of NPCs that get split and murdered, but i "guessing" what i'm describing won't change much will have to see ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted May 19, 2010, 10:28 pm

Studman Studly Men Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Flether said: And to any people who go "Where's your PHD in psychology" or something equally witty, I don't have one, but I do have a reasonable amount of knowledge from my interest in behavioral sciences and the paper I'm currently writing. *Holds up his PHD in calling people out on their bull* No one is going to surrender their car in an environment where they are being constantly shot at (communication would be difficult and the fear of just being shot) and the result could be death/slavery/eaten by giant animals. Historically this is backed up by the fact that in small scale armed conflict a surrender on the scale of the large scouts (half or more) does not happen, unless another squad is taken completely by surprise and held at gunpoint, or there is very civil treatment of prisoners of war. In large scale combat mass surrender is almost NEVER seen. Instead you get an organized or disorganized retreat. Surrender instead happens in long wars of attrition such as the American Civil war battles or the siege of a castle/fortress, where the results are inevitable or the price of victory is calculated and deemed not worth it. Instead what you are doing is using your wrong opinion of what you think is realism to argue for a broken game mechanic. I would actually argue that realistically no one in a drivable car would ever get out of it and submit themselves to the other group, instead they would flee for their life and perhaps escape in the confusion. In fact " NPC wants to escape" should mean just that. Really though none of this is any more immersion breaking that Radar Guided Missiles and lasers in a pos apoc world where people can light things on fire with their mind!! So realism arguments dont hold any weight. ......................... vet wv Posted May 19, 2010, 10:40 pm Last edited May 19, 2010, 10:42 pm by Studman

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Studman said: Flether said: And to any people who go "Where's your PHD in psychology" or something equally witty, I don't have one, but I do have a reasonable amount of knowledge from my interest in behavioral sciences and the paper I'm currently writing. *Holds up his PHD in calling people out on their bull* No one is going to surrender their car in an environment where they are being constantly shot at (communication would be difficult and the fear of just being shot) and the result could be death/slavery/eaten by giant animals. Historically this is backed up by the fact that in small scale armed conflict a surrender on the scale of the large scouts (half or more) does not happen, unless another squad is taken completely by surprise and held at gunpoint, or there is very civil treatment of prisoners of war. In large scale combat mass surrender is almost NEVER seen. Instead you get an organized or disorganized retreat. Surrender instead happens in long wars of attrition such as the American Civil war battles or the siege of a castle/fortress, where the results are inevitable or the price of victory is calculated and deemed not worth it. Instead what you are doing is using your wrong opinion of what you think is realism to argue for a broken game mechanic. I would actually argue that realistically no one in a drivable car would ever get out of it and submit themselves to the other group, instead they would flee for their life and perhaps escape in the confusion. In fact " NPC wants to escape" should mean just that. Really though none of this is any more immersion breaking that Radar Guided Missiles and lasers in a pos apoc world where people can light things on fire with their mind!! So realism arguments dont hold any weight. You are historically and factually completely wrong.  In fact, surrender was the norm through history.  It was only until highly organized armies of mass attrition that organized retreats and more imortantly standing and fighting to the last was somewhat common.  Although this is still not the norm.  Self preservation is a powerful force, and most will do almost anyting to preserve their life.  to include in this ccase getting out of a car and abandoning it, even as they know there are ginat insects.  The guns of the enemy will kill them sooner.  The game does not model the negotiations that would happen here.  But the end of the battle and the loot phase are our simulations.  The point is that at some point a force becomes combat ineffective, whether by retreating, surendering, melting away or just simply being over run and quitting in penny packets.  The historical number for a combat ineffective unit is 50%.  Virtually no force maintains the fight affter losing m]50% or more.  There are of course exceptions, but these prove the rule.  As it stands, the NPCs are much stronger than even that. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted May 19, 2010, 11:11 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 "When an attacking force is outnumbered or outgunned (as the AI seems to be for every mega I've been on) by a convoy there is really only one logical option: a series of complex ambushes. " Kornkob - True, that is a point well taken, ambushes rarely turn into a set piece, they are hit and run. That would be very hard to simulate. An ambush will continue to a decisive battle if one side can gain a great advantage and the other cannot disengage. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted May 19, 2010, 11:15 pm

Studman Studly Men Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Quote: You are historically and factually completely wrong.  In fact, surrender was the norm through history.  It was only until highly organized armies of mass attrition that organized retreats and more imortantly standing and fighting to the last was somewhat common.  Although this is still not the norm.  Self preservation is a powerful force, and most will do almost anyting to preserve their life.  to include in this ccase getting out of a car and abandoning it, even as they know there are ginat insects.  The guns of the enemy will kill them sooner.  The game does not model the negotiations that would happen here.  But the end of the battle and the loot phase are our simulations.  The point is that at some point a force becomes combat ineffective, whether by retreating, surendering, melting away or just simply being over run and quitting in penny packets.  The historical number for a combat ineffective unit is 50%.  Virtually no force maintains the fight affter losing m]50% or more.  There are of course exceptions, but these prove the rule.  As it stands, the NPCs are much stronger than even that. Would you care to provide any examples, or do you want to keep spouting nonsense also if you really believe getting out of a functional car and surrendering to slavers is the response to self preservation instinct you do not have the requisite mental functioning for a debate. ......................... vet wv Posted May 19, 2010, 11:28 pm Last edited May 19, 2010, 11:45 pm by Studman

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 LETS not get personal in this thread please. ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted May 19, 2010, 11:41 pm

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