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Factions and Per-Town Rep./Fame, Observations & Discussion
*Grograt*
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BUT .... losing the ability to scout with anyone, over realism is a dangerous avenue to take .... alienating certain groups of members from each other cuts down on the MMO aspect and could force more people into solo activity and even more away from the game totally .... balance over realism ( sorry i know you hate that lol )
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vet marshal wv community

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 11:28 pm
Togakure
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Sam, thanks for finding out the problem and fixing my rep. I thought it was quite odd that I would be forced to lose so much rep for not even firing a shot, and can understand how their self-inflicted damage from poor driving might have caused some unexpected issues. At least it's fixed and others won't suffer from it in the future.


I would really like to see some option added to allow people the choice to either fight or flee. By adding such a feature during the deployment stage, it will allow those on friendly terms to leave without penalty. If the decision to reduce the CR of enemy vehicles is denied, then I guess I can accept it. But in those situations most players will have no choice but to flee. You can't tell me that common players are going to stand their ground and fight a 2:1 or 3:1 CR balancing afterwards.

I'm not suggesting that you remove an equal amount of CR from the enemy as the amount of squad members who left, but at least offer some reduction to at least give the remaining members a chance of survival.


I'm still wondering if anything can or should be done about the option to choose which faction you scout after. Several times now have I seen a squad owner (including myself) choose to scout after a specific faction, yet have an encounter with someone completely different. As it stands right now, can we be told even a hint as to what affects the chances of successfully getting our desired faction? Is it based on Rep, scout skill, what?

If it continues to be a problem getting the desired faction then even after a feature is added to allow positive-rep players from fleeing, you're still going to be hearing a lot of complaints. If the squad owners keep choosing Anarchists for example and consistently get encounters with Mutants, you're going to see a lot of mutant-friendly players repeatedly having to turn around without firing a shot. Those players in turn are going to be yelling out about wasted time and fuel, even though the joined a squad that was supposedly going after non-Mutants.

I just don't see much point with choosing a faction if your desired selection is rarely going to be what you actually get. At this rate, squads are going to have to start forming up based on a single specific faction. If the squad leader is disliked by Mutants, then it's necessary for all other squad members to be 100% comfortable with attacking Mutants. Basically, you have to join scout squads where the leader has identical Rep as you do, and this will seriously limit the ability to scout. Even more so during the slower hours of server population/activity. As Grograt mentioned, this might start forcing more solo scouts or make people want to leave the game.
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vet wv gateautumn

Posted Mar 6, 2010, 2:44 pm
*sam*
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Togakure said:

I'm still wondering if anything can or should be done about the option to choose which faction you scout after. Several times now have I seen a squad owner (including myself) choose to scout after a specific faction, yet have an encounter with someone completely different. As it stands right now, can we be told even a hint as to what affects the chances of successfully getting our desired faction? Is it based on Rep, scout skill, what?


The issue here relates to the fact that you could easily choose a faction which you know to be very weak in an area, thereby guaranteeing a weak enemy in your combat, even without decent scouting skill. I don't know what the solution is, so for the moment I'll remove the scouting check and match you up against your desired faction automatically, except in severe cases (e.g. where the only one in the area is very weak and your squad is too strong for it)..
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Posted Mar 8, 2010, 10:30 am
*sam*
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Just to also let you know I'm monitoring this stuff and have made several tweaks already to the chance of certain things happening.

1. The effect of faction-hatred in the arena has been toned down (but it's not something I want to remove entirely).. it's only the northern semi-pro league that's affected by this anyway, as far as I recall, since that's the only one that has NPC wilderness gangs in it.

2. I removed the 'murder' action, for several reasons, not least of which I think it was pretty distasteful

3. I have reduced the chance of militia attacks when you arrive into a town that hates you

4. I have reduced the pvp-combat impact on camp fame, espcecially when the combat was part of the new squad league.


The issue of this new faction system stopping people from playing together is a real one.. I'm not sure if it's something we can remove entirely without distorting the faction system beyond all meaning. However, maybe the squad leader could take full impact from any rep. changes from a combat, while the other members would take a lesser effect (positive or negative)? Just an idea.. it would be easier to implement and less disruptive on multiplayer gaming than having a bunch of cars escape. Maybe also, rather than everyone in a squad taking equal rep. effect from a combat, the actual player who causes injuries takes more, and the one who didn't takes less??
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Posted Mar 8, 2010, 10:47 am Last edited Mar 8, 2010, 11:44 am by *sam*
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sam,

i am finding it really difficult to make the merchants dislike me. I keep killing them but my anti anarchist actions seem to be outweighing my anti merchant stuff...
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vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 11:06 am
*sam*
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The merchants and anarchists are enemies goat.. it's gonna be hard to have them both hate you, that's true.
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Posted Mar 8, 2010, 11:11 am
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I don't know Sam -- I think I managed that quite well yesterday... =P

It seems that people are easier to make hate than to make love, so eventually goat should be able to at least have one as hated while the other is detested?
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vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 11:21 am
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It should be possible, yes, since cascaded rep. changes are never as strong as the original.
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Posted Mar 8, 2010, 11:22 am
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*sam* said:
Maybe also, rather than everyone in a squad taking equal rep. effect from a combat, the actual player who causes injuries takes more, and the one who didn't takes less??
Oh, this, THIS!
You see, when We go after traders occasionally, I just blow the enemy cars up, but I try to spare the peds, while Chaos cant keep his finger of that trigger, poor pedestrians in the open...  :rolleyes:
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vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 11:59 am
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*sam* said:
The merchants and anarchists are enemies goat.. it's gonna be hard to have them both hate you, that's true.


but as a red they are BOTH my enemies...

this is why people need to be able to CHOOSE a faction so that they can roleplay it properly.

you could lose your faction status by acting contrary to its interests but you should be able to decide that you are a red etc.
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Posted Mar 8, 2010, 12:19 pm
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You can role-play it properly. Kill more merchants. :>
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vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 12:22 pm
*Wolfsbane*
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Um - as a red, anarchists aren't your enemies goat.  You should be attacking merchants and slavers, and playing nice with badlands truckstop.  You should also try and annoy the deathrace mafia, which I think can only be done by hunting the elmsfield olympians right now.

Faction details here.
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vet wv marshal pvp2 cont

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 12:50 pm Last edited Mar 8, 2010, 12:51 pm by Wolfsbane
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*sam* said:
rather than everyone in a squad taking equal rep. effect from a combat, the actual player who causes injuries takes more, and the one who didn't takes less??


This is the option I think is best, as it's also the most "realistic". Think about it in modern terms: A group of people are on trial for beating someone up and eventually kill him. The person who actually dealt the lethal blow or the injury determined to be the most-likely cause of death is going to get the most serious punishment. The others are still going to be punished as well, but on a much lesser degree, more along the lines of accomplices.

So in DW, anyone firing at the vehicles or peds of a faction are going to take negative rep, but those who are actually filling the screen with blue and red text are going to be deemed the most responsible. Maybe some sort of scale?

Code:
1
2
3
4
1) Red (kill) a ped on foot
2) Blue (injure) a ped on foot
3) Kill a crew in vehicle
4) Injure a crew in vehicle


This way, players who want to fight but not really take a huge rep loss can help demo the vehicles but hold fire once a vehicle has been breached and never fires on peds. Those wanting to maximize their rep loss/gain and get nasty can red the enemy until there's nothing left but pink vapor.

You'd also have to consider which is more important to you on a scout, keeping loot intact or gaining max rep. In order to do both you really need some skill.
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vet wv gateautumn

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 1:40 pm
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Wolfsbane said:
Um - as a red, anarchists aren't your enemies goat.  You should be attacking merchants and slavers, and playing nice with badlands truckstop.  You should also try and annoy the deathrace mafia, which I think can only be done by hunting the elmsfield olympians right now.

Faction details here.


I'm sure sam said elsewhere he was changing this.... if not he should..

reds would be against everyone except the civilians... especially the anarchists. They stand for the exact opposite of communism... individual gain over collective action. theft not work.

so you cant role play being a proper red at all.

far as I can see this whole factions thing has become a massive waste of space. It should be ablout people choosing a faction not just happening to join one.

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vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2

Posted Mar 8, 2010, 2:29 pm Last edited Mar 8, 2010, 2:31 pm by goat starer
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This thread is getting massive and I haven't read it all but my experience of the factions is that it hasn't changed very much.

People in SS fight anarchists, people in FL attack traders, everything else is a mild irritant at best. I can see why people would want lower gates fees and don't want to be denied entry to settlements but both of those are avoidance of penalty. I can't find an incentive to follow a particular faction.

For example why would anyone want to be an Anarchist up north, or a Merchant down south?

There needs to be some compelling reason to join a particular faction and stick with it, or else its just flavour. I can think of some based on assigning a play strategy to each faction but I think that is a different topic.
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vet wv

Posted Mar 9, 2010, 2:10 pm
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Bruv: something goat suggested to me might be relevant here. The concept of formally joining a specific faction, and that each faction has its own advantages...

It would be interesting to consider what these advantages might be?

-- Anarchists.. you get a recruiting bonus?
-- Merchants.. you get better buy/sell rates with NPCs with bulk goods?
-- Deathrace Mafia.. you sometimes find you car has been provisioned with reloads in an arena combat?


Maybe we could build up a list of these things..
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Posted Mar 9, 2010, 2:41 pm
*Grograt*
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Faction membership would be an excellent idea ... as long as it does not effect who you can scout with, too much ...
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vet marshal wv community

Posted Mar 9, 2010, 3:44 pm Last edited Mar 9, 2010, 3:44 pm by *Grograt*
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That I really like. Logical step up since the introduction of factions to allow you to choose a faction to join with and get their bonus.

What about also having some sort of benefit amongst each of the towns, so where you have as your Home Town has a factor on your gang as well.

Things like Texan would give residents free refueling as long as they are in good standing. And things of this nature that go along with the local flavor of the town.
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Posted Mar 9, 2010, 3:47 pm
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also have to have an equal disadvantage to the advantage.

against the anarchists you get a better recruiting bonus but your chances of getting a travel encounter goes up because they are looking for you and the travel encounter is a more equal CR not to make more travel encounters more difficult.
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vet wv

Posted Mar 9, 2010, 3:51 pm
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If you are liked by a town mabey you could get a training boost? Like you get a LG boost in BL, you get FA boost in Elms and so on.
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Posted Mar 9, 2010, 4:35 pm
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