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Factions and Per-Town Rep./Fame, Observations & Discussion
*Marc5iver*
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Longo said:
*sam* said:
That was a pro combat, longo? Those are generally the only ones that have anarchist (or any faction-aligned) NPCs in. You won't find this behaviour in events without faction-aligned NPC gangs in.


Nope, it was a Northern Semi Pro League event.
Event ID 83604


I have decided to not do any more Semi Pro Combat because in last one I was in had 3 NPCs kicking my butt with their ATGs and werent firing on each other at all and it was a no teams event. Had 2 guys killed in that.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 2:22 am
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And what is up with the faction selection option when scouting?

I choose to attack Anarchists, and I get mutants. WTF? What is the point in even selecting a faction if I'm just going to end up fighting any random faction anyways?

This was the second time such an issue has happened, both times with squad owner choosing Anarchists and getting Mutants.



If there are going to be repercussions when being in a squad that attacks a faction you are favored with, then there needs to be a way to allow those players to freely leave the combat before it begins without putting the full CR on those who stay. As it stands now, this is turning into a whole micro-managing nightmare. Now I have to browse the faction rep pages of every squad member just to make sure I'm not going to be screwed into running from a fight or left to fight an unbalanced CR.
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vet wv gateautumn

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 4:18 pm
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Dont forget, this is a new system, Sam is keeping a tight watch on what is happening and if things need to change, he will change them. Give it some time and any issues will be resolved, he is a one man band remember.
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vet marshal wv community

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 4:57 pm
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What Buj said.

I like the introduction of factions a lot, but if it means that every time I scout in groups (especially in SS) I am going to ruin my mutant faction, I'm just going to have to stop scouting there altogether or just do solo scouts.

I've never once hunted mutants on my own or groups that I ran and to the best of knowledge, the leaders of squads I joined never did either, but somehow my mutant faction was all the way down to disliked before last night.  I make it a point to go after ONLY anarchists because mutants don't like them and they also improve my civ/merchant faction.  But even though I do solo scouts and couriers (do they affect this?) against pure anarchists, my mutant faction didn't recover.

This can't be the way the system was intended..



-El Carnicero
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vet wv

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:01 pm Last edited Mar 5, 2010, 5:04 pm by El Carnicero
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Togakure said:
I noticed something that I'd like a clarification about.

I was in a squad which the squad owner is not on friendly terms with the civs or is at least hated by Somerset. On the way back we had a gates encounter with the militia, and we both ran. At the time, I was respected by the civs and locally renowned and respected by Somerset. I didn't fire a single shot, the militia never fired a shot at me, and I escaped into the city. Three of the militia cars did chase me though. Yet afterwards my rep with the civs went down to Liked.



That certainly shouldn't have happened, since faction-rep changes are based on damage being scored in combat.. do you have an event ID I can check?



Togakure said:
Shouldn't there be something that determines which players are actually hated and which are just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Being that I was respected by both the civs and by Somerset, shouldn't there be something that prevents the local militia from attacking such players?


Maybe so.. that'd make it easy for locally hated players to use other players as 'cover' though, wouldn't it?


Togakure said:
And if not, then how are we supposed to run scouts when we never know if our participating in that squad is going to piss off a faction that we never even attacked? Are we supposed to browse the rep pages of every squad member prior to leaving just to make sure we aren't hanging out with a "bad" player?


No, just the squad owner


Togakure said:

Another problem was with the option to scout towards a specific faction. We had a couple of players who didn't want to fight the mutants, so our squad owner selected to hunt Anarchists. Yet we ended up fighting mutants anyways. Since a few of the players refused to fight and wanted to run, this left the rest of us to choose between fighting an unbalanced enemy or running as well.

The majority voted and the decision was for everyone to run. So here we all are, bashing up our cars trying to evade over rough terrain. A few cars took some nasty damage but amazingly managed to make it out alive, even after doing some interesting mid-air flips, spins, rolls, and other ballet moves.

Is there any way we can get an option during the placement stage to allow a few members to truce/auto-flee and let the rest fight?



This may be possible, yes. There's subtleties in this new system that will take some ironing out.. stuff which no-one foresaw.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:05 pm
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Longo said:
*sam* said:
That was a pro combat, longo? Those are generally the only ones that have anarchist (or any faction-aligned) NPCs in. You won't find this behaviour in events without faction-aligned NPC gangs in.


Nope, it was a Northern Semi Pro League event.
Event ID 83604


Sorry, my mistake. The Pro combats actually use Town NPC gangs. Some of the specific 'mini leagues' use wilderness ones.. such as the Northern Semi Pro.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:07 pm
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*sam* said:
That certainly shouldn't have happened, since faction-rep changes are based on damage being scored in combat.. do you have an event ID I can check?


S184690 is the event ID of the first time I encountered the SS militia, with Tinker as the squad owner. Prior to that encounter my rep with the civs was Respected and in SS I was locally renowned and respected. After the event, I was down to liked with the civs and locally renowned and liked in SS.


Quote:
Maybe so.. that'd make it easy for locally hated players to use other players as 'cover' though, wouldn't it?


I'm not talking about letting the entire squad leave, but to allow the players with a positive rep be capable of a truce option that works in a similar manner as escaping from combat. If they have positive faction, and before the combat starts, they can right-click their crew and select "Truce", after which they leave the combat.

As a result of players leaving under such circumstances, let the overall enemy CR be reduced by a fair percentage. This would still require the low-rep player(s) to fight or flee, but not be up against an unfair amount of enemy CR. How much reduction is done is up for discussion and testing, I guess.


I'd really like to see something changed. As it sits right now, I'm not participating in any travels or scouts until something is done about this. I have lost multiple loot cars and even my 2nd best gunner on failed scouts all because of the problems stated above. I've had to flee from the Somerset militia twice now, one time losing multiple vehicles in the process. This really is a game-breaking issue for me, and has put a sour taste in my mouth.
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vet wv gateautumn

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:22 pm
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Togakure said:
*sam* said:
That certainly shouldn't have happened, since faction-rep changes are based on damage being scored in combat.. do you have an event ID I can check?


S184690 is the event ID of the first time I encountered the SS militia, with Tinker as the squad owner. Prior to that encounter my rep with the civs was Respected and in SS I was locally renowned and respected. After the event, I was down to liked with the civs and locally renowned and liked in SS.


Was that last night?  The fact the town rep went down too makes it sound like it might just be the weekly fame and rep loss going through.
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vet wv marshal pvp2 cont

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:25 pm
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Togakure said:
And what is up with the faction selection option when scouting?

I choose to attack Anarchists, and I get mutants. WTF? What is the point in even selecting a faction if I'm just going to end up fighting any random faction anyways?


Think Sam said the chances was influenced by the scout's skill

Quote:


If there are going to be repercussions when being in a squad that attacks a faction you are favored with, then there needs to be a way to allow those players to freely leave the combat before it begins without putting the full CR on those who stay. As it stands now, this is turning into a whole micro-managing nightmare. Now I have to browse the faction rep pages of every squad member just to make sure I'm not going to be screwed into running from a fight or left to fight an unbalanced CR.



And something else that is bugging me, if you are in someone's else's squad caught fighting a faction that you are friendly with, even if you run away without shooting a shot you will loose rep with that faction.

What about if you don't red them they don't notice too much

Also if you are very friendly with them, maybe they don't target you so much? Just thinking out loud
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:25 pm
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If vehicles from gangs that didn't want to participate in the combat were removed on turn 0, before the enemy is revealed, then in an RP sense it makes sense to have an equitable CR of the enemy vehicles chase them down, and therefore not spawn with the enemy on turn 1. As it would be random which of the cars do not spawn, and the CR that leaves both squads would be even, this seems to be the fairest solution.

EDIT: 3 posts at 10:25?

Bunch of forum stalkers we are.
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vet wv marshal pvp2

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:25 pm Last edited Mar 5, 2010, 5:26 pm by Dark Tempest 666
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Togakure said:
*sam* said:
That certainly shouldn't have happened, since faction-rep changes are based on damage being scored in combat.. do you have an event ID I can check?


S184690 is the event ID of the first time I encountered the SS militia, with Tinker as the squad owner. Prior to that encounter my rep with the civs was Respected and in SS I was locally renowned and respected. After the event, I was down to liked with the civs and locally renowned and liked in SS.



This took a bit of digging.. but it seems that one of the NPCs received a critical hit due to crashing their car while chasing you, and this flagged the combat as a 'real combat that you participated in', therefore you lost rep. As a friend who had just double-crossed them, you were heavily penalised while Tink only lost a tiny bit more rep. with them.

I didn't really intend this to happen, and what I'll do is remove this effect from crash damage: only weapons will count. So if no-one on your squad actually hits them with a weapon, it won't be flagged as a 'real' combat.

edit: I have also 'refunded' your rep., Tog.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:51 pm Last edited Mar 5, 2010, 6:03 pm by *sam*
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*sam* said:
I didn't really intend this to happen, and what I'll do is remove this effect from crash damage: only weapons will count. So if no-one on your squad actually hits them with a weapon, it won't be flagged as a 'real' combat.


Is this why a bunch of them when after him?

Also if only weapon fire count, then it's fair to assume, they will ignore the friendly/neutral players and concentrate on the bad guy?
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 5:59 pm
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*Tinker* said:
*sam* said:
I didn't really intend this to happen, and what I'll do is remove this effect from crash damage: only weapons will count. So if no-one on your squad actually hits them with a weapon, it won't be flagged as a 'real' combat.


Is this why a bunch of them when after him?

Also if only weapon fire count, then it's fair to assume, they will ignore the friendly/neutral players and concentrate on the bad guy?



No, it doesn't currently work this way in wilderness events Tink. They consider everyone in the squad to be equal targets, and decide how much they like/dislike the squad based on the squad owner. Certainly I could change this, but it might be possible to exploit this in some ways.. to use hated guys as bait for a trap, for example. From a tactical/combat point of view, I'd prefer not to make such a change.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 6:02 pm Last edited Mar 5, 2010, 6:03 pm by *sam*
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Tog said:
I'm not talking about letting the entire squad leave, but to allow the players with a positive rep be capable of a truce option that works in a similar manner as escaping from combat. If they have positive faction, and before the combat starts, they can right-click their crew and select "Truce", after which they leave the combat.


Something like this could be reasonable, yes.. they let certain (friendly) cars escape at the start.

Tog said:
As a result of players leaving under such circumstances, let the overall enemy CR be reduced by a fair percentage. This would still require the low-rep player(s) to fight or flee, but not be up against an unfair amount of enemy CR. How much reduction is done is up for discussion and testing, I guess.


Not sure about this.. maybe
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 6:06 pm
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*sam* said:
*Tinker* said:
*sam* said:
I didn't really intend this to happen, and what I'll do is remove this effect from crash damage: only weapons will count. So if no-one on your squad actually hits them with a weapon, it won't be flagged as a 'real' combat.


Is this why a bunch of them when after him?

Also if only weapon fire count, then it's fair to assume, they will ignore the friendly/neutral players and concentrate on the bad guy?



No, it doesn't currently work this way in wilderness events Tink. They consider everyone in the squad to be equal targets, and decide how much they like/dislike the squad based on the squad owner. Certainly I could change this, but it might be possible to exploit this in some ways.. to use hated guys as bait for a trap, for example. From a tactical/combat point of view, I'd prefer not to make such a change.



Yup now that you mention it makes sense,

But to please the largest group of players, could it be envisioned that IF no neutral/friendly player got close or fired a shot, a sort of delicate truce would be maintained between them and the NPCs? If they got to close there would be a warning sign, and then it would be a free for all.

perhaps the NPCs could have text bubbles saying stuff like "friendlies stay away and don't get involved" kind of messages


That would let the neg rep players run or fight and let the friendlies escape.


I don't know maybe that's impossible to code or not the way you envisioned the game
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 6:23 pm
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Tink: yep, something along those lines seems reasonable- Tog's suggestion is quite similar and actually much easier: if the friendly players got a chance to disappear right at the start.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 6:50 pm
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*sam* said:


As a friend who had just double-crossed them, you were heavily penalised while Tink only lost a tiny bit more rep. with them.



Heh, thats a very cool feature  :cyclops:
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 9:40 pm
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*Tinker* said:


But to please the largest group of players, could it be envisioned that IF no neutral/friendly player got close or fired a shot, a sort of delicate truce would be maintained between them and the NPCs? If they got to close there would be a warning sign, and then it would be a free for all.

perhaps the NPCs could have text bubbles saying stuff like "friendlies stay away and don't get involved" kind of messages


That would let the neg rep players run or fight and let the friendlies escape.



Hmm, nice to know you can rely on your squad mates  :o
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vet wv

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 9:43 pm
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Longo said:
Man, I had not done a town event since the faction/rep patch, and boy has it changed.

I logged in and saw a league combat starting, and saw Ole Glowplug was the only real player joined. It was BYOB, and he had a nice BPU with 2X CCs. A worthy opponent. I tossed in a buzzer just in time, HMG/CC front, HMG rear, and two excellent gunners, one even with deathracer. After all, my guys werent gonna get hurt in a buzzer, were they? As the event began, I observed Glow stalking me and turned around just in time to engage him. He resigned, and took off driving out of the mix. I thought to myself, and even asked him, "What are you doing?" I quickly found out. I had an Apache stalk the crap outa me, along with a another car. Glow started yelling they were anarchists and they detested me. I took out another NPC, and suddenly found my Buzzer's side breached. I resigned to save my kewl doods. But these 2 anarchist's gangs kept shooting at me. I spun around and around, losing my rear HMG and front CC, and was breached both front and a side. One of my doods was bleeding heavily, another extremely heavily. Oh man! I continued to take fire, and eventually backed out. I dunno if it was the First Aid spec my driver had or not, but around turn 90 or so my guys quit bleeding. I ran into a corner and dodged fire until turn 120 hit..... End result  - pristine buzzer chassis dinged, CC down to 2%, lost HMG, 2 gangers at 88%. I might not do many more town events, hehe. Some town event gang was even shooting at me, and the DR mafia love me... scary but deadly  :stare:



Wish I had read this before yesterday. I had no idea the NPCs in the semi-pro league were now going to act so much differently then before, and gang up on me 4 to 1 completely ignoring each other and continue to blast the crap out of me even after I resigned. Lost my best Apache with the rare toxic skin, my only HGG, and 2 gangers, 1 of them being one of my only 4 spec'd gunnery crew.

I guess this means now no more Somerset Arena for me at all, only Double Down where I have some cover to use to limit them to engaging me one or two at a time.
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Posted Mar 5, 2010, 10:12 pm
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I think it's great just the way it is.

You go out running around with someone who murders for HPs...gets gangs hating them, what are the NPC gangs supposed to think? You came along to take pictures of the flora and fauna? When you're in the lobby listening to all these people talk about murdering people...TAKE NOTES!

Otherwise...caveat emptor, sucks being you!

I think if a player starts a scout knowing he's hated by certain factions and gets jumped by said faction, and his pals run off...there should be NO reduction in CR. Run for it Mr. Hated Dude. Don't make it? ...think about NOT MURDERING PEOPLE!

I think the Factions thing is working just fine. You are an idiot...you pay for it.

However, how about a warning on the Squad Page of the owning player, that comes up saying "Player "X" is HATED by the following gangs: and a list of the players in the group, each with a listing if they have a group that HATES them?

That way, as you're joining...you could see that Tinker is hated by whoever...and that you're best buddies with the NPC whoevers...and back out of the scout?

If you see the warning and choose to stay...doom on you.

As for in-towns...hey, if you have a gang that hates you...and you enter events with them, well, suck it up. You should know that NPC gangs have friends, too. Sam's said it enough times.

Sucks being you.

I like the 'you don't shoot at us, we won't shoot at you' thing if you are engaged by a group that doesn't hate you, but hates another member of your party.

As for not getting who you went looking for: too bad. They're not just sitting out there wondering when you're going to show up...the bad guys are hunting too. Better luck next time.

That's happened to me several times now. It is what it is.

Seems to be working great so far, Sam...don't change a thing.

Imagine...being responsible for your actions!! BRILLIANT!

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vet wv

Posted Mar 5, 2010, 11:22 pm
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