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ad hominem, If you're going to throw it out...

Fealty Lost Slaughterhouse: Bloody Remains Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 1,258 Joined: Jan 6, 2009 ...understand what it is. One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed. In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments. Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument. Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 26, 2010, 12:15 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 damon... why you feel the need to tell us this is beyond me but... ad hominem arguments are not automatically fallacies. In fact it is a perfectly acceptable form of argument in informal logic (ie. the type applied in most normal human interactions) eg.. in a trial it is considered reasonable and logical to undermine a witness on the basis that their character introduces bias... so i might say of you ... Damon says this man was not in the bar but damon is not to be trusted as he is a serial criminal and has a history of lying under oath an ad hominem argument.. but one which is perfectly valid. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 12:26 am

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 Damon_Angel said: ...understand what it is. The simplest definition of ad hominem is attacking the speaker and/or his character, rather than attacking the substance of what they say. And that is exactly what you did (suggesting that I'm afraid of change), which is why I used the term. If you're going to correct people, ####ing well make sure you're right. Edit: Oh, yeah... the passive-aggressive nature of your post? Not very mature. ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Jan 26, 2010, 12:28 am Last edited Jan 26, 2010, 12:30 am by Nekojin

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 I propose we solve this the old fashioned way... with PvP! ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:27 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 YAY! ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:29 am

Raife Hardwired Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: May 15, 2009 Do you really need to start a whole thread to escalate your petty flamewar? ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:29 am Last edited Jan 26, 2010, 1:35 am by Raife

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Damon_Angel said: ...understand what it is. One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed. In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments. Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument. Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument You keepa using that word...I dunna think it means what you think it means. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 2:27 am

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 Man I love Mandy Patinkin. He's still going, getting better every year. ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 26, 2010, 2:36 am

*Chase Bansi* Team Bansi Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 693 Joined: Aug 13, 2007 Inconceivable! ......................... marshal vet gateautumn wv e2g0,1,0 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 3:19 am

Fealty Lost Slaughterhouse: Bloody Remains Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 1,258 Joined: Jan 6, 2009 goat' ...your example is incorrect without further background. It is incorrect IF there is factual proof of the serial criminalism and lying under oath, which could then be a fact-based rebuttal and therefore not ad hominem. ...it would be correct if there was NO evidence that the witness was a serial criminal or one who habitually lied under oath and this arguement without factual basis as rebuttal would then be ad hominem. Neko' Wrong once again. ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 26, 2010, 4:22 am

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 Damon_Angel said: Neko' Wrong once again. Yes, you are. And yet, you persist. ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Jan 26, 2010, 4:31 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 2 men enter, 1 man leave! ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 5:05 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Are they men ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Jan 26, 2010, 8:57 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Damon_Angel said: goat' ...your example is incorrect without further background. It is incorrect IF there is factual proof of the serial criminalism and lying under oath, which could then be a fact-based rebuttal and therefore not ad hominem. ...it would be correct if there was NO evidence that the witness was a serial criminal or one who habitually lied under oath and this arguement without factual basis as rebuttal would then be ad hominem. Neko' Wrong once again. no damon.. it isnt... not according to any major text book on the subject of logic. You said ad hominem arguments were de facto fallacious... that is an example of one which isn't. funnily enough the passage you copied from some other forum (yes i can use google) is wrong... like so much of the guff posted on forums. I will choose to trust people who made an academic career out of the study of logic over something some disgruntled forum basher posted when they got pissed off.  ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 11:21 am

josefaaron Eightball Shiftknobs Pedestrian Renegade Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: Oct 9, 2009 If this is a flamewar, it's the most erudite one I've ever seen. ......................... vet wv Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:09 pm

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 you guys use big words and I don't see what's its got to do with fellatio or wireless access points, but it says here (/me refers to ask jeeves) that you can get some nasty sores from fellatio. Not sure about ad-hoc mode, says something about water under the bridge. Don't use the chainsaw! we all know it has no fuel. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:50 pm

*Wolfsbane* Arbiters Darkwind Guru Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,038 Joined: Oct 9, 2009 Bast for RC! ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 cont Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:53 pm

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Yeh! Then I can push for Rail guns! /me gets back in his space ship ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 1:57 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 I will comment in my normal satirical manner I like pictures ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Jan 26, 2010, 2:14 pm Last edited Jan 26, 2010, 2:16 pm by *Grograt*

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Damon_Angel said: ...understand what it is. One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed. In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments. Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument. Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument Damon's screen name starts with the most despised and violently immoral letter of all: D. Foul words that start with D include: Death, Dirty, Doubtful, Diarrhea and Delaware. Furthermore, 'Damon' sounds suspiciously like 'Demon'. I've heard he must replace his keyboard daily because the keys melt as soon as his disgusting fingers touch them. Would you really listen to the ramblings of such a despicable individual? Do yourself a favor and dismiss his nonsense, however well founded. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Jan 26, 2010, 3:49 pm Last edited Jan 26, 2010, 4:56 pm by Groove Champion

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