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PvP Balance, Vets vs Noobs

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,514 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 In the situation where a new or smaller player is hounded by pvp attacks from larger or more experienced players, maybe leaving them in a situation where they need to sell some of their good equipment just to get by (or basically stopping ppl from wanting to play from not wanting to constantly compete with other players), could there be a limit to the amount of pvp attacks that can be made or can be received? You can make so many attacks per week.. or so many attacks against a certain type of opponent. Should players be allowed to get away with no pvp? Should players be allowed to target lesser opponents for the very good chance of good loot (better than most pirates). Its probably a realistic post apocalyptic situation to dominate all opposition and great for the real competitive players. Its meant to be all about survival, but if players just died out there is a bit of a problem. Some players may get quite emotional about pvp. Players do put a lot of time into their gang, and different people want to play in different ways. How do you want to play and is there some way we can find a resolution to the discussion that has been filling the lobby all day? ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:02 am

*Burden* The Speedrunners Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 1,013 Joined: Oct 4, 2009 How would a system work where, you cant PvP people with gangers more than 10-20 skill higher than the opposing squad's highest ganger? And if your gangers are too high skilled, the PvP "fails to intercept the squad"? ......................... wv vet zom marshal pvp2 paintladder Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:18 am Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 9:20 am by Burden

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 We could, for purposes of road PvP, implement something that included crew skill in the CR of the squads. I'd honestly be much happier with a solution that involved just getting some of the vets that aren't PvPing involved in maybe a little bit of running intercepts against the veteran PvPers (I doubt the dudes running the PvP are against this idea, either.) I do think, however, that the player skill is going to be a much bigger factor in winning or losing PvP than ganger skill - except on a completely open plain, of course. ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:25 am

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 I have to say, the idea of PvP being given automatic 500-skill Mechanic work makes it extremely lucrative for "bullies" to prey on lower-skilled gangers, since they'll get back nearly anything they kill, and in good shape, too. This seems like an extremely unbalancing point. Likewise for the 500 Medic, since the "bullies" can go out of their way to overkill their targets until they kill the crew - a 500 Medic can't do jack about that, and any minor injuries they take in the process will pretty much be healed. Edit to make my thoughts on the matter a little clearer: Serious PvP players, and especially aggressive PvP players, have a significant advantage in the system over non-PvP players. They can essentially set the stage for when they want to try to ambush people, can watch chat for public discussions about where Scouts are going to go, spy on the people they plan to be ambushing, and will generally have superior crew and equipment to do it with. They can look up the names of Scout crews that are in the planning stages, find out who's in the Scout, investigate what kind of crew and vehicles they have and are likely to field, and generally have a total informational advantage. The victims, on the other hand, will have no knowledge of their attackers until the battle starts. Furthermore, with the current system, they can completely skip out on two otherwise-essential skills - with the "free" super-mechanic and super-medic, they can focus totally on combat skills, while a smart PvE Scout crew will have a decent Mechanic and decent Medic brought along, which are likely to be somewhat lacking in combat skills. I don't know how Scouting affects PvP combat, but if it's anything like PvE, then a high scout would be giving multiple benefits to the attackers, too - much greater likelihood of encountering the Scout Crew they're trying to ambush, much better chance of setting up in favorable positioning... Honestly, an attacking Crew has all of the advantages in PvP. A defending Crew has little chance of ever overcoming an intelligent attacker, and the attacker is rewarded up one side and down the other for doing so. I'm not trying to say that PvP is evil, or needs to be removed. Darkwind is essentially and inherently a PvP game. But some things definitely need to be changed if you want more people to engage in open-world PvP. As it stands right now, the PvP aspect benefits only a very few individuals, and serves to drive other players away from the game entirely. ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:26 am Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 9:47 am by Nekojin

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 Neko, the majority of PvP events I've seen haven't resulted in a fight to the death. Usually one side either surrenders entirely or works out a deal to surrender one car as a bounty. But you're right that it gives incentive to murder a rare car thoroughly because you know you're going to be able to drive it home... which negates the whole 100% medic, since they dudes inside will have no head. That said, I was never in favor of the 100% jury rig and the super first aid in the first place. ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:36 am Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 9:36 am by simonmaxhill

Bytten The Bytten Squad Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 449 Joined: Oct 23, 2008 Grograt has recently led me to a game via Facebook called Starfleet Commander, which is (once you're established, which I'm still some way from at the moment) heavily about PvP. It has a feature called "diplomacy mode". You can set this on or off, with a 24-hour changeover period, and when switched on you cannot be attacked - or attack anyone else. Those with no PvP interest can thus skip it. There is a cost to this, however, which I think is about 40% of your resource generation. Would a similar "tax" in DW work? It would essentially be protection money. It wouldn't stop your regular AI attacks, but would mean you weren't available for PvP and wouldn't be able to initiate it either. ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:46 am

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 We pretty much already have that with the bounty system, tho, don't we? ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:51 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,514 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 I think it does seem a bit one sided at the moment. The vets have everything on their side. Experience in game play, skill in gangers, which I would argue is greatly effected by gameplay experience, so double bonus, equipment which makes it easier again and then the fact they are making the ambush. Then with all the extra repair bonus... yeh I agree with Nekojin. Are Spanky and Simmon using their Psionic powers of persuasion on the RC,  Fight to the death or not, chances are its a fight to a loss for newer players. You boys like picking on the poor that much huh  Go pick on Latte or guys with mega bucks, and don't pick on me lol I will always be a noob. ...and a winging little bi!@# ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 9:58 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Have i missed something in my brief away period, has there been an increase in PVP and are new members being targeted and how if in SS ? ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 19, 2009, 10:24 am

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 I am definitely a huge proponent of PvP and would rather see if nerfed than eliminated. I've done about six PvP events (that weren't bountied out of) and they've all been pretty interesting because I had no damn clue what the other player was going to do. Some people bolt and try to outrun me (with some success) and some people grab some cover and start shooting the crap out of me (with some success). But in either case, I am thinking about every single turn, worrying a few turns ahead, wondering what risks I'll be able to make and what I won't. It's seriously fun and so far I haven't lost anything but money and cars (and pride...lots of pride.) But if there's a consensus (and I'd like it to be based on at least three actual event IDs) that ubergunnery vets are victimizing the newbish playerbase, then maybe some tweaks oughta be made. Hell - I'll benefit from them. My gunners are for crap. ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 19, 2009, 10:38 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 simonmaxhill said: Hell - I'll benefit from them.  My gunners are for crap. Hee hee ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 19, 2009, 10:46 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,514 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Bytten said: Would a similar "tax" in DW work? It would essentially be protection money. It wouldn't stop your regular AI attacks, but would mean you weren't available for PvP and wouldn't be able to initiate it either. Could the tax % be scaled for newer members, or maybe on your aggression to others or income for those that don't play much. I haven't tried much PvP I must say, and definitely don't want to discourage PvP. In fact just the opposite. This form (or similar) of encouragement for pvp might be good. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 11:43 am Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 11:58 am by Bastiel

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 simonmaxhill said: But if there's a consensus (and I'd like it to be based on at least three actual event IDs) that ubergunnery vets are victimizing the newbish playerbase, then maybe some tweaks oughta be made. It would be great if we had a clue about the target's experience Some kind of information available at a glance in the lobby about players, we have something like that in the forum allready, racers, gurus etc, 2. PvP is a pain to set up and slows down the whole departure/arrival phase, It just dawned on me that maybe we could get it done much faster, here's how You have a squad with a mixture of cars in, You launch it for PvP, it they stays launched untill you recall them (which will play out like a regular scout, so you need medics mechanics, scouts etc). If anyone leaves or arrives at the gates you get a popup like the way it is now, and get to choose which cars you will commit manually to match their CR. Your cars that were not committed stay on patrol until the cars come back together again, and ready for a possible return, or stay on standby again until recalled,  but can only intercept another squad to keep things fair. This would make PvP much much faster, and help out the defending squad a little more. edit: to elaborate the last point, maybe if the PvPer squad fails to get their target (scout roll?), then they fight pirates (with the remainder of the cars, if any that were left out) ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Dec 19, 2009, 12:30 pm Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 12:35 pm by *Tinker*

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Simon said: I do think, however, that the player skill is going to be a much bigger factor in winning or losing PvP than ganger skill - except on a completely open plain, of course. This about sums it up. As an example having had a look at the one that caused a certain amount of unhappiness earlier today it struck me and the other spectator that the result could/would have been different if one side's tactics had been more appropriate to their situation. I am not sure how you could go about tracking a player's skill with any level of accuracy or usefulness. In a similar vein I am not sure how well you can balance up how useful a ganger's skills are (as they are so interdependent). So unless there is a really bright idea about it I remain unconvinced that this is a viable solution. PvP off button? I really don't think this is a solution either - unless you are prevented from interacting with the other players in a competitive manner across the board where you can cause them harm (so include all the races, combats, deathraces, FPKKK etc). Given that the super medic/mechanic is there to encourage PvP the arguments against it actually show that it works. Does the attacker have too many advantages? Probably yes, though that could be addressed I am sure to increase the risk - purely off the top of my head - perhaps for a failed scout roll for example you would get ambushed by NPCs or the other squad gets a chance to be able to ambush you etc. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 1:25 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,677 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 There hasnt been any "Vet" players or anyone for that matter that has destroyed someones gang that I am aware of... why worry about something that hasnt happened and change the game based upon "what ifs"? As for balancing CR with the skill of gangers? Cmon! All of my gangers are skilled...why would I even PVP at all? Id have noobs attacking me constantly...and then me...a 2 year player would quit the game instead of the noob, who may quit after a month. I just dont see new players getting abused by Vets at the moment... Zoltan and Simon have been the only ones out there Pvping of late.. and its been done all down South and they have been very gentlemenary about it...is that a word? SO quit whinning, if you dont want Pvp, stay in SS , or if your down South, pay the bounty and you dont have to Pvp. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 2:15 pm Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 2:15 pm by Longo

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,514 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Ninesticks said: I am not sure how you could go about tracking a player's skill with any level of accuracy or usefulness. In a similar vein I am not sure how well you can balance up how useful a ganger's skills are (as they are so interdependent). So unless there is a really bright idea about it I remain unconvinced that this is a viable solution. Could there be an aggression level? If there would be a scout modifier for pvp based on a percentage chance; Have a low percentage chance to start with, and the more events a PC competes in with 1 or more other PCs, the chance goes up. Calculated weekly to cover how much people play. 40/60 maybe to start with and 5 points for each event. Winning an event +5; killing players +100; fastest lap +5; in events with other players gives extra bonus points, and any chance greater than 100/100 - 101 and up, means that you play enough that you know what you are doing and can handle a slight CR off-set in favour of the attacker. - If you don't play in any events with other people at all over the week, the chance goes down as a base for that player, maybe only 1 point per week. - If a player is always exceeding the 100/100 mark weekly (or whatever the magic number may be, maybe higher or lower depending on how this would work, and could be an adjusting point for the mechanism), the chance can go up as a base, but faster than not participating say +5 or +10. The base can go higher than 100/100 and if so covers the most experienced and active players. - Holidays not included? Stop people loading up killing players and running away to come back a week later to avoid high pvp %. At the end of the week you get a rise in pvp activity due to the increased chance. Covers  experience difference and CR balance, which is directly influenced by the aggression level. Most aggressive gets mention in the gazette for free. Bloodiest, Most feared Road Gang Seems simple enough, covers activity level, experience, and CR Longo said: SO quit whinning, if you dont want Pvp, stay in SS , or if your down South, pay the bounty and you dont have to Pvp. Actually that seems a lot easier ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 2:23 pm Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 2:28 pm by Bastiel

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,677 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Bastiel said: Longo said: SO quit whinning, if you dont want Pvp, stay in SS , or if your down South, pay the bounty and you dont have to Pvp. Actually that seems a lot easier Bast - Mind you I am in no way trying to beat ya up in the forums....I just think that alot of people are worrying too much... in 2 years I can say my pvp battles numbers are under 10...and for a while it appeared everyone wanted to attack me for whatever reason... Id say the average Dood , unless looking for them, may get 1 or 2 a year? ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 2:33 pm Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 2:38 pm by Longo

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,677 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 1 more thing to add.... The griefers in the past have been few and far between...most people playing DW are 30s something doods.... and the Vets have always stepped up and taken them out....I hunted and engaged Shark numerous times.... he just ran away... when FF was newer he angered some people....and he learned his lessen and turned into a pretty decent guy.... your not gonan be left hung out to dry if someone tries grieving you in Pvp ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 2:42 pm Last edited Dec 19, 2009, 2:43 pm by Longo

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,514 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Longo said: Bast - Mind you I am in no way trying to beat ya up in the forums....I Your cool longo, not at all!  And no disrespect to any others in here, Simon and darth about my RC call, the psoinics call was maybe just a point about balance of CR I guess and was all meant in fun  Realy Ihave no experience with pvp... Really I have never encountered any griefers or been a target of pvp bullies, I only started the post really from tales I had read about scout girls beating people up in the old pvp days, and recent things I had read in the lobby. So I just wanted to bring them up thinking although everything seems to work, could this be a problem for some people? And maybe the point I don't lose well so, I tend to winge and cry about my dudes or cars. Getting over that more, the more I get, doesn't feel quite so bad now. Although when I lose my fav dudes, i do cry a little, take time to pour some petrol on the corpse, light them on fire and throw on a machine gun mag so he goes out in some spectacular last blaze of glory. Then I take a picture of there character sheet, wishing i''d done it to him before he died, and place it in a folder for good memories... remember the time he drove head on into a scorpion at 70mph to save a mortar, rammed two more pirates that day too and saved the mortar aww  ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 3:53 pm

Big Daddy BD And Sons Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 211 Joined: May 8, 2009 Ninesticks said: As an example having had a look at the one that caused a certain amount of unhappiness earlier today it struck me and the other spectator that the result could/would have been different if one side's tactics had been more appropriate to their situation. Could you elaborate on those alternatives? Partly because I'm skeptical, but I also know there are many here who are better at combat tactics than I am so I can probably learn something. Maybe heading into the canyon at the start instead of taking the bridge? I heard some suggestions about paying the bounty or a few ways of fleeing, but nothing that even suggested winning was a possibility. I suggested it previously to absolutely no fanfare (http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=9608) but this is an encounter I'd love to be able to practice playing both sides. The game sure looks different for gunners who always hit with a CC at over 100m, but I've never actually tried it. Until then, again, I'm very skeptical that having a fistful more weapon specs than your opponent isn't a huge advantage. ......................... vet wv0,1,0 Posted Dec 19, 2009, 5:34 pm

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