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Camp wars updates coming for next cycle

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on. I agree let's be clear : I am time griefing because I showed up for a match? There is nothing to forgive. Thats right Joel! we are getting somewhere. showing up to a battle you should have conceded, when you had no intention of engaging with us or trying to win the match (especially with the time neg and anti social hours issues) is time griefing. As you discussed with us on a video call that would be an obvious way to time grief people and, as you discussed during that call it needs to have penalties. I think its fair that you got away with it this time - it is after all early days and we are all learning stuff. thanks fr your kind comment.. we didn't think we did anything wrong but its nice to hear it from you. Should probably be an announcement maybe that you are not allowed to defend yourself if outmatched in CR.  Like you know so we don't have to guess. I mean we are still allowed to allocate merely 100 cr. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:36 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on. I agree let's be clear : I am time griefing because I showed up for a match? There is nothing to forgive. Thats right Joel! we are getting somewhere. showing up to a battle you should have conceded, when you had no intention of engaging with us or trying to win the match (especially with the time neg and anti social hours issues) is time griefing. As you discussed with us on a video call that would be an obvious way to time grief people and, as you discussed during that call it needs to have penalties. I think its fair that you got away with it this time - it is after all early days and we are all learning stuff. thanks fr your kind comment.. we didn't think we did anything wrong but its nice to hear it from you. Should probably be an announcement maybe that you are not allowed to defend yourself if outmatched in CR.  Like you know so we don't have to guess. I mean we are still allowed to allocate merely 100 cr. and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:58 pm Last edited Jun 7, 2020, 11:00 pm by *goat starer*

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 *goat starer* said: and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. What a horrible word.  Concede. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:06 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. What a horrible word.  Concede. shall we call it the 'tactical withdrawal' button? If that helps to develop sporting behaviours I would support renaming it. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:10 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. What a horrible word.  Concede. shall we call it the 'tactical withdrawal' button? If that helps to develop sporting behaviours I would support renaming it. Sporting behaviors!! HA!  Enjoy your new ally.  Good luck with that.  How nice, he's even changed his time to Euro Friendly. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:15 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,670 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:17 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. I am struggling to think.of a single thing in them that wasn't Harry's idea amended by you or Joel? The only things I can think of that I recommended were: Not having to deploy to each hex in turn (we could ask for that to be added back for you if you don't like it?) Adding a 'tactical withdrawal' button. And erm... Er.... Literally none of my other suggestions have happened - to take just the main ones - reducing CR per player to 500, reducing turns to 50. I understand that you guys are unexpectedly losing. It must come as a real shock and a bit of anger and frustration is to be expected. But you are really struggling to come up with anything tangible that you were not directly involved in deciding. If there are some things you think need discussing I'm sure we could all ask for another call? ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 12:52 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,670 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. I am struggling to think.of a single thing in them that wasn't Harry's idea amended by you or Joel? The only things I can think of that I recommended were: Not having to deploy to each hex in turn (we could ask for that to be added back for you if you don't like it?) Adding a 'tactical withdrawal' button. And erm... Er.... Literally none of my other suggestions have happened - to take just the main ones - reducing CR per player to 500, reducing turns to 50. I understand that you guys are unexpectedly losing. It must come as a real shock and a bit of anger and frustration is to be expected. But you are really struggling to come up with anything tangible that you were not directly involved in deciding. If there are some things you think need discussing I'm sure we could all ask for another call? From the sounds of this response, we are either not playing the same game or you think so highly of yourself you cant see past your nose. I will say you are right goat, in the interest of quieting you. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 12:55 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. I am struggling to think.of a single thing in them that wasn't Harry's idea amended by you or Joel? The only things I can think of that I recommended were: Not having to deploy to each hex in turn (we could ask for that to be added back for you if you don't like it?) Adding a 'tactical withdrawal' button. And erm... Er.... Literally none of my other suggestions have happened - to take just the main ones - reducing CR per player to 500, reducing turns to 50. I understand that you guys are unexpectedly losing. It must come as a real shock and a bit of anger and frustration is to be expected. But you are really struggling to come up with anything tangible that you were not directly involved in deciding. If there are some things you think need discussing I'm sure we could all ask for another call? From the sounds of this response, we are either not playing the same game or you think so highly of yourself you cant see past your nose. I will say you are right goat, in the interest of quieting you. So no specific things? 'Goat Wars' is just an emotional reaction? ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 12:58 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 If only you fought in the game like this - it's 2 am your time!  Goat Wars... well this Friday it will be.  Until now I can conceed maybe the X10+cr camps play with MIGHT not have been your idea. Certainly a few our our ideas were taken, but nearly nothing of the logistics ideas and balance.  (we told you CR per player is a bad idea, particularly with so many battles.) Ideas giving some advantage to defender totally ignored and in fact the last advantage about to be taken away.  LET THE GANK BEGIN! ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 1:02 am Last edited Jun 8, 2020, 1:08 am by Joel Autobaun

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: If only you fought in the game like this - it's 2 am your time!  Goat Wars... well this Friday it will be.  Until now I can conceed maybe the X10+cr camps play with MIGHT not have been your idea. Certainly a few our our ideas were taken, but nearly nothing of the logistics ideas and balance.  (we told you CR per player is a bad idea, particularly with so many battles.) Ideas giving some advantage to defender totally ignored and in fact the last advantage about to be taken away.  LET THE GANK BEGIN! None of those things were my ideas.. you seem to have turned me into a bogey man for absolutely no reason.. the architect of most of it was on your team in the first battle so it's really weird that you are imprinting on me. There already is advantage to the defender due to defence rating.. Im very comfortable with the notion that this should be increased (as a starting point defended tiles could get a minimum undeployed CR of 100 to stop.people just chucking  the mininum at every tile). You  donth seem to have come up with a single thing that was my suggestion. I don't even know what "X10+Cr" means? And you know none of this was my idea because you were in the meetings and you did most of the talking. People listened to you... You got most of what you asked for. If by the 'last advantage' you mean the advantage that only applies to US camps then I would say moderating that would be a very good idea. And neither of you seem to have understood how it works or modelled it. It has absolutely no down sides. You get to choose the hours you don't want to play so do we... And the game wins because it can always pick hours that are at least ok for everyone (which was the point after all). It still biases to the defenders times. Unless you think you can only win by scheduling games at 4am? I thought you were better than that. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 1:33 am Last edited Jun 8, 2020, 1:38 am by *goat starer*

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,027 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: darthspanky said: i think hes just nervous, that 13800 cr is going to be bearing down on his camp from one direction while bill cr is comming from another, but thats just my guess. bbbbut I thought we had a deal??  we did have a deal but longo getting butthurt and running his mouth after i made him spend more money on sponsorships, ending this dont bid against each other bullcrap helped me greatly on who i wanted to side with. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,2 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 2:10 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,670 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 darthspanky said: we did have a deal but longo getting butthurt and running his mouth after i made him spend more money on sponsorships, ending this dont bid against each other bullcrap I have PMs from you asking me to take different sponsorships and not bid up the price so you could have it for cheap, after I returned a while back from my hiatus and didnt know this "system". You created this, and then when it didnt work in your favor, you did everything you could to ruin it. I learned it by watching you! ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 2:39 am

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,027 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 i have the money to buy sposorships every year if i wanted, didnt buy any last year, want more money earn it, their was 1 year i needed 3 to build ambulances, and you drove the price up on one i needed, consider what i did payback for driving the price up on me. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,2 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 2:48 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,670 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 darthspanky said: i have the money to buy sposorships every year if i wanted, didnt buy any last year, want more money earn it, their was 1 year i needed 3 to build ambulances, and you drove the price up on one i needed, consider what i did payback for driving the price up on me. I wasnt driving the price up for you, I wanted to win it. You have screwed a ton of players in this community over the years. Maybe its time they all pay you back. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 4:18 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,782 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Joel Autobaun said: Certainly a few our our ideas were taken, but nearly nothing of the logistics ideas and balance.  (we told you CR per player is a bad idea, particularly with so many battles.) That wasn't goat's idea, it was Harry's/mine. We have spent far more time discussing these designs together than we have in calls with others. As Harry explained at the time, one of the core ideas in all this is to create a meaningful career path for newer players in the camp system, by making them valuable to more established players. I have also been told by a consultant on Eve Online that this exact concept was specifically in its design. As it stands, I know you think the CR per player should be higher. Goat thinks it should be lower. I have left it as it is. As I have mentioned in another thread, something does need to be done with CR. The options are, I think: 1. Put a cap on the size that a battle can be, by reducing the higher camp's CR to some limit (4000?) and reducing the lower camp's CR in proportion.   - or - 2.  Add a percentage-of-CR to each player's allowance, e.g. make it 750CR+10% of overall CR.  This is a figure I have discussed with Harry. It is moving more in the direction that you want than what goat wants, for the record. I have not yet done either of these because we all agreed that we should wait for more evidence before making big changes. Joel Autobaun said: Ideas giving some advantage to defender What ideas? I have nothing in my notes other than: - increasing the amount of extra CR that a defending camp gets from the tile's Defence rating (everyone agrees on this, but we decided to hold off on making rash changes until we have more evidence) - placing the KoTH flag closer to the defender (this was one of my early ideas which nobody seemed to like) Please remind me of your ideas on this. I absolutely don't want you to think you're being ignored or that I have any agenda other than making the game more fun for as many players as possible. Joel Autobaun said: the last advantage about to be taken away. Are you honestly trying to suggest that a match scheduling advantage - i.e. a real world aspect which should have as little bearing as possible on the game - is a way you think multiplayer game design should work? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 5:36 am Last edited Jun 8, 2020, 5:47 am by *sam*

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 If you are the one who suggested the flag start closer to the defender then kudos. I definitely remember being all for it! So why didnt it happen?? A cr advantage of 20 -100 for defendee seemed massive to me suggesting it. Until i saw the starting cr we had to play with... even 100 cr is a fart in the wind in 3000+ cr battles. Which is the toughest thing... but you come up with a good idea to reduced that and make the 750 cr/player limit more workable and the vault crowd shoots that one down. They did not give us another good battle and we felt led us in bad faith of testing this to take advantage of the cr deployment strategy... a system which favours the aggressor massively (again i would suggest the defender should be able to hold in reserve some reactionary cr at camp...perhaps deployed at a more aggressive decay. If the atracker doesnt attach of course he wasted it). So we decided wth i guess show up and see what happens we were angered by said bad faith on their side. We did not negotiate new times. We did not need too...too bad for them. If they knew the crs...then they know one guy with 750 cr coulda won anyway. So they showed up it seems just to piss and moan and cat call...goat pming me threats of your wrath for daring to show. And cooperation definitely died that night. What a darling he was. Point by point it has played out on these forums...despite calls for a meeting... to go with whatever goat wants. That is probably the biggest reason for our current dissension. Now i KNOW i mentioned 500m escapes need to get fixed (and i know i brought it up years ago with scl) And certainly our warnings of border merges bringing 4...5..6 and many more combats unreasonable to bring in the whole server coordination for them, have been ignored. That is certainly one reason aggrivating the feelings of not being listened to. So to be called a liar on top of this has certainly not cooled anything off. Im sure we are wrong on some of our perspectives...however if you can even imagine some of the absolute bull#### goat has pulled these last 2 weeks...maybe you might understand that perspective. We can only react to what we know. Oh and regarding the defender times... do you really think you want to talk to any camp owner who is forced to defend his actual camp at 3 am his time? ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,99,31 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 6:04 am Last edited Jun 8, 2020, 6:23 am by Joel Autobaun

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,782 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I'm going to bring this into a new thread and reply to your points there. I'll lock this one and put it out of its misery. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Jun 8, 2020, 6:44 am

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