Treat 'er right, son, and she'll serve ya well., Car specialism / Research&Dev
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Karz Master Posted Oct 16, 2009, 10:21 am |
Analysis of issue:
You know how action RPGs / hack-n-slash games like Diablo 2 have weapons with "slots" in them? Then you can combine these "slot" weapons with certain gems to enhance their powers, making them more powerful. While customizing my car, I just felt something was lacking. Counting the chassis and engines, the permutations of what car you can come up with are past yonder imagination. BUT what about optimal configurations? For example, the pros of Darkwind will tell you putting two flamers and two HMGs into a carrier van isn't really a smart choice (as experienced first hand by yours truly, though I'm no pro...yet). That's just one of the key points. Another cause for this "lacking" feel is that there's no attachment to cars. You can create custom skins, but there's no difference between that car called Heavy Laser 1 and this one called Heavy Laser 2, apart from the names. For those like myself still getting into the feel of owning more cars, there's still a sense of loss when we lose a car in the field, but I can already start to feel the generic-ness of my two Apaches, that beside slightly different weapons loadout, there's nothing much else to tell them apart - again, limited optimal configurations. This makes cars even more expendable than gangers, because as you own more expensive cars, the real value of your older cars drop, even if they still kick arse. You're not going to lose that good ol' reliable Boxvan and say "DANG IT!"; it's going to be more along the lines of "k no big loss my gangers are still alive, hmmm I think that factory is producing Boxvans, gonna pick up a few more". -------------------------------------- Idea: to be able to assign existing mechs to perform research & development on existing cars. Make cars specialise. Over time, as cars become more "used" in the field, your mechs will be able to find more ways to improve on these damaged parts, while they are being repaired. Unlike ganger specialism, the time it takes for cars to get "slotted" increases exponentially with every "slot". On the first slot, say it takes a total of 2 weeks worth of mileage ie. the total amount of time the car is used in events is equivalent to 2 weeks (subject to testing and change accordingly). The subsequent slot will take 1 month. Next one is 2 months. And so on. Once it reaches the necessary mileage, how fast your mech can "research" and "develop" will depend on his/her skill. Also, the outcome of what you get from R&D is entirely based on luck. This means you don't get to choose specialization for the cars, unlike gangers. This prevents players from trying to find the optimum build. It is also possible to get the same R&D outcome again, and the effects will stack. However! You get to select at the start whether the car is meant for racing, or for combat, or both. It would be ridiculous to give a Deville combat benefits, when it is only built for the tracks. Pros of this system: - levels the playing field for players who don't own a lot of cars, versus those who do - brings a sense of great attachment to the cars, and pride of ownership - makes people play more cautiously when scouting - a sense of uniqueness and authenticity in Darkwind's lore. You don't just recognize the ganger, you recognize his/her car as well And to kickstart this idea, Examples of R&D: - Extra front/rear/left-hand/right-hand side weapon slot: self explanatory - Greater centrifugal balance: car is less likely to turtle; less likely to be affected by recoil and enemy fire - Traction: Car able to climb slopes better; less likely to slide off - Better braking: Car is able to lose more speed when braking, if you choose to. - Resilient: Car is able to withstand more damage to its bottom and top armors. - Improved suspension: landing greatly reduces chance of damaging bottom armor. - Greater speed: self explanatory. Basically your mechs have found a way to make your car run collect more mileage in a shorter time So what do you guys think? |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Oct 16, 2009, 10:46 am |
Well we do have the Renowned, famous and Legendary settings for vehicles, this certainly gives them history, i cant say i have no attachment to my cars, they are all named and all have back histories ( though these histories would be nice if visible ) the idea of being able to add to vehicles over time, just doesn't sit right with me, in my experience the older the car the more problems arise with it ( bloody peugeots lol ). Though i appreciate your post and the time you obviously put into the idea, | ||
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Karz Master Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:00 am |
Hmm what's this Legendary settings thou speaketh of? 
I see your point. It's just that there's not enough encouragement by the game itself to preserve your car, other than adding to your wallet's losses. Also, the homogeneous nature of the cars doesn't create a unique enough sense of identity. There doesn't need to be a "forced" sense of identity when it comes to cars, but Darkwind can still go a few ways further to encourage it. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:22 am |
Taking this as a serious question, each car you own gains fame from events. When sufficient fame is accrued, your vehicle will be Renowned, after that the levels are Famous and finally Legendary. These give an ever increasing (I presume) boost to occupant courage. Renaming a vehicle reduces it fame. Certainly makes you want to keep a vehicle going even though it could be easily replaced with one with no permadamage. That said some of, for me, the most memorable cars are those that have gone out in a blaze of glory (or in the alternative ones that have driven in front of my rocket boosted twin re-ram apache when it is on an attack run) |
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FireFly Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:22 am |
AWEZUU000ME!
Sorry for the awesome moment Well, I myself thought of that before, and I bet several others have, I see no problems with it whatsoever, and I would love to see this in the game. As for some specs I thought of... Combat Specs Roof Mount: What it sounds like, the abitiy to put a weapons system on the roof, either foward or rear facing, lets say, a rocket rack, these would be expsed to enemy fire and only limited to single shot types, note, these wold not take any extra bulk to mount. (Yes I watched the movie Deathrace, sue me!) Magazine Holds:This spec gives you 1 free reload per weapon, due to a specific build in the car to hold extra ammo. Natrual ram:Due to heavy armoring on the front of your car, it now has a natrual ram into it. Racing Specs Drifter:This car will initaite powerslides and better remain in control while sliding. Lowrider:High speed, Low drag! this car has reduced air resistance and will stick closer to the ground, giving it more traction, its the opposite of the drifter Universal Specs Natrual Rollcage: Tinkering with the car has led to a natrual rollcage, without the extra bulk or weight, your car has the same effects. Extended Cargo:The cargohold of the truck is extended by 25% (Would only apply to Carrier, Boxvans and Lorry's) Soft on tyres:Due to some rather odd modifications, the pressure on the tyres are reduced by a whooping 50%, making them last a whole lot longer Flameshield:The car is incredibly hard to set on fire, and the chance of explosions are greatly reduced. Protection against angry trolls not included |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:24 am |
all sounds very unbalancing to me FF | ||
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FireFly Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:25 am |
I dont think it does, concidering everyone can get these.
Besides, I have yet to get one reknowned car, thats true, but that really dosent give me enough to make me want to take care of a car that long. With these specs, there is actaully a benefit from keeping them alive. |
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Karz Master Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:27 am |
Ah cool thanks. I haven't actually experienced this, as I haven't had a figure that lasted long enough, hence the question. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:42 am |
I didn't know if you knew and were just pulling Gro's leg a bit. 
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:50 am |
I don't think I've ever damaged bottom armor from a jump. It's always one of the sides... Other than that, I agree with Grog and Nine. One of these days you will find a car that you care about a lot more than the rest. I've now got a Legendary Fire Engine and a Legendary Buzzer. I could tell you several times each when I've risked all to save them because they do mean that much to me. Before those, the same held true of an Apache that I had. It was the first of my vehicles to gain Renowned status. I saved that thing from pirates many times, including shoving it into a town's borders after its engine had been destroyed. . . . I eventually lost that one. It still hurts. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Oct 16, 2009, 11:55 am |
I remember watching the gun vid on that PT so it was certainly legendary to me
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FireFly Posted Oct 16, 2009, 12:00 pm |
Alright then, how about this?
Screw the whole "reknown" thing about the customizations, it still makes sense in the way that no people are driving around stock model cars, so why wouldnt you be able to mod them a little? I still like the idea of the "boosts" given randomly, hell, why dont you just start applying certain "specs" to random bandit cars when looting them? |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Oct 16, 2009, 12:03 pm |
balance FF, if we start to have players that scout 80 hours a week getting special up grades to vehicles, this would unbalance the game.
Of course this is just my opinion |
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FireFly Posted Oct 16, 2009, 1:24 pm |
There must be ways to balance that, I mean, its the same with renowned cars.
And honestly, if players play a lot, its not weird for them to be rewarded for it, it's also a fact that the more you play, the more you scout, the bigger the chance of you getting that one, killer, nasty ambush. I myself, I play a lot, but I don't really scout that heavily. Another thing, Darkwind isn't really "Balanced" that way if you ask me, its a fact that the ones who play more, or played for very long, are the ones to own a fleet of buzzers and alike. |
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 16, 2009, 1:46 pm |
Having renowned, etc cars doesn't really improve your odds of winning much, unlike some of the bonuses you're speaking of, FF.
And you're right, people who play more Darkwind often have more/better "stuff". But, if you're in a PvP match with some fella who's got a fleet of cars full of special bonuses, you're in big trouble. If you're in against someone who's got a big garage, you're still balanced by CR. |
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FireFly Posted Oct 16, 2009, 1:56 pm |
Ah, true, but this would also give "underused" chassis a new light, lets say you have a muscle car with the "extra ammo", think what you could do with it.
Or a sonic with a roof mount. |
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 16, 2009, 3:03 pm |
Still nothing. Now my weapons would just get shot to hell and my crew, already pretty much hung out to dry, would have no offense nor defense. 
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4saken Posted Oct 16, 2009, 3:08 pm |
It's kinda tricky. I have thought before of the idea of having certain individual cars be special in some way, like when they get a rare skin. Only in this case it would be more like a 10% speed or armor bonus, etc. With the new perma-damage rules I don't think this would unbalance the game like it would have before. If you can either chose to mod your car or else find one in a rare spawn (probably noted with a pirate gang logo) this would end up being somewhat of a vet-only thing or for people who play all the time. However, due to the chassis getting worn these items would eventually trickle down to masses, albeit in a worn state. And if they can be found randomly even newbies can acquire them at 100%. Perhaps mods could spawn in some fashion per player, like the on-demand courier missions do now. That way even with unlimited resources vets could buy them no more often than a newer player (except that how often they spawn probably has alot to do with your highest mechanic level or perhaps ranks of some new spec.) Just some ideas thrown into the mix. |
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Fealty Lost Posted Oct 16, 2009, 3:38 pm |
Firefly...I've put this topic forward before and got a less than enthusiastic response from the very same people with the same (IMNSH) lame excuse...'game balance.'
My suggestions ran along the lines of decreased bulk for increased engine bays (hate the 'stepped' vehicles)...I can put a 4L into a Jeep...but can't get larger than a 3.2 V-6 into a GM SUV???...increased armor toughness, again with decreased bulk due to internal bracing/frame/chassis modification and a few others. Always they cry 'game balance,' which is sort of doofus, because there's really nothing in the game that requires balance...PvP doesn't...scouts don't...events don't...it's all CR-based, and CR would increase with improvements...so...? Anyway...all you're going to get is a sore head from beating it against the oldster wall. Save your energy. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Oct 16, 2009, 4:29 pm |
dameon, you never give up do you, is there any particular reason you like to be so aggressive with in the forums.
Please refrain from making every post involve accusations and sniping at other posts thankyou |
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FireFly Posted Oct 16, 2009, 5:18 pm |
Eh, let the man speak gro
Besides, what he said is true, the only real balance in this game is the CR, and its supposed to represent the combat ability of a squad (Hence combat rating), now why wouldn't these mods/boosts give a better combat rating? |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 17, 2009, 5:37 am |
Well, first off Gro didn't say he couldn't speak - he has just asked him to refrain from making constant snipes - different thing altogether. Refraining from constant snipes and the somewhat tired 'I have suggested this before' statements would probably improve the reader's engagement with what DA is saying - a benefit all round.
DA isn't talking the truth, there is an awful lot of balancing going on, every aspect of the game has to strive towards a balance for the sake of gameplay. As an example, take all direct fire weapons that take up 40 bulk, there must be a certain amount of balance between them whislt keeping variety. Why? Because if you don't you will end up with everyone using the same weapon because it is 'the best' - maintaining the balance allows for more viable choices - which creates width of gameplay. To continue in regards to balancing weapons there are a lot of considerations, not only damage, but also rate of fire, range, penalties against fast moving targets, impact recoil, firing recoil, ease of looting ammunition, even cost of ammunition to name some. Have a look over the forums and you will see plenty of talk about things being balanced. From gameplay 'styles' (pirates vs good guys) through chassis armour strength to even new player experience/established player experience. I remember DA making several propositions himself to improve the viability of dropped weapons - this goes directly to the heart of 'balance' - making them a viable choice. Anything that can influence balance has to be thought about/through carefully. When the balance goes out of whack due to a change look for the complaints. Then come back and say there is no balancing other than CR. |
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Fealty Lost Posted Oct 17, 2009, 4:34 pm |
Wow, Nines...you actually look at all that stuff? I just slap some HMG's and CR's onto my Apaches and go. They really have all that stuff? ...I suppose an accountant would love all that, but it would detract from my fun I think.
We need to seperate and delineate 'viable' and 'balance.' My suggestions for dropped weapons were to make them more VIABLE as a weapon...since they weren't working very well. Improving something, making it more functional and effective...which is what Sam did to the dropped weapons (thank you again Sam)...doesn't that mess up the balance? ...since nothing else was changed to offset their new effectiveness? ...just wondering in my logical way. And, Nines'...the only people that might be put off from my mentioning that I or anyone else has put forward something similar to a new guy's suggestions would be...oh ya, the oldsters...so I'm not too worried about it. as for 'game balance,' that's for a while other topic...and one that's been done many times...or should I not say that? 
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 18, 2009, 5:36 am |
Should you look at all that stuff when it comes to looking at the balance of the game and the impact of proposed changes -of course you bloody should.
A player may not look at all that stuff when designing a car, in fact part of this game's charm is that a lot of that you have to figure out for yourself through experience. Balance helps ensure viability, viability is a good indicator that a weapon is balanced. You cannot seperate them. Dropped weapons were not a particularly viable choice - dud mines, too easily knocked out by nearby explosions etc. So when the changes were put in they became more viable, and in my opinion more balanced. Your assertions that only the more experienced playerbase are put off by your incessant sniping and belaboured statements that you 'have said it all before etc' is probably accurate. But that is purely because we have had to endure it for far longer. Just because a suggestion is not acted upon or is critiqued for balance doesn't mean 'everyone is out to do that' - that's quite plainly ridiculous. What is more ridiculous and frankly peurile is to assert that this is the case because the playerbase discusses a suggestion bearing balance in mind. For someone who stated that they were a journalist, I find it remarkable in the extreme that you fail to appreciate how your messages will come across. Or in the alternative you do and you don't care. Either way I find your posts boorish, overly aggresive, ill considered and somewhat dubious as to the veracity of their contents. Taking some advice from 'Desiderata' I suppose I will return to the position of ignoring your posts. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 18, 2009, 4:50 pm |
and if that was me saying that you could ignore it and assume i was just mouthing off... when its nine you should have a long hard look in the mirror! 
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darthspanky Posted Oct 18, 2009, 9:36 pm |
damon i double dog dare ya to make nine upset again, muhahahaha, hell do it too since i ddd him.
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 18, 2009, 10:28 pm |
It's impossible I tell ya!
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