*sam* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 6:14 pm	This is advance warning that the changes below are going to be implemented soon. In the case of #3, I will have your Lockups page show future cost for a period of 1 week, so you know exactly how you will be impacted and have time to react before the changes are made permanent. These changes were actually discussed in the rules council in May/June and agreed on in early June, but I didn't get time to work on them until now. ------------------------------ 1. Increase in character wages: at the top end (currently ~$1000), make it 3x larger, scaling down to no change at all at the bottom end ($25). 2.  Increase the rate at which permanent-damage to equipment happens. It will be 3% each time the item is mended, rather than the current 1%. However, if the item is already within 5% of its maximum then it receives no permanent damage at all when fixed. 3. Increase garage fees and lockup fees, especially in the small towns. SS: x1 Elms/SF/TX: x2 BL/FL/GW/SV: x6 However, ammo will no longer count towards lockup space in towns. These figures will be non-linear - so the figure starts spiraling when you have masses of gear. It will also be based on local piracy levels (to represent the increasing security presence needed as you have larger lockups). The figures above are ballpark increases for "reasonably sized garages/lockups". 4. Increase the rate that NPCs train, in BL/FL/SF/TX/SV. BL: x3, FL/SF/TX/SV: x2
darthspanky Posted Aug 24, 2009, 6:18 pm	hehe too bad ya didnt post this before the elections, good thing rc is looking out for us.
*Lugal* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 6:25 pm	Spring cleaning time.... Changes look good, especially the 'permage' one.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 24, 2009, 7:12 pm	oooooo some money trap changes there, i like i think lol
pweelg Posted Aug 24, 2009, 7:19 pm	Looks like time to move everything back to Somer. I understand the need to make money more valuable than it is currently but the rewards for scouting in BL aren't really worth the expense of having any serious amount of stuff there. Why the increase on NPC training ?
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Aug 24, 2009, 7:45 pm	pweelg said: Why the increase on NPC training ? Simply to make the pirate gangs in those areas a bit more difficult. This way they are more powerful without just stacking up a bigger CR against you, which often just results in more loot for the hunter.
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 7:48 pm	Regarding the increase on NPC training, a quick look at the pirate gangs in BL tells the tale. The top pirate gang (in BL) at fame 900 has approximately 5 characters with gunnery in the 40-60 range at 100% activity. Chances are they will all be dead/crippled by week's end. Basically the pirates are getting slaughtered so quickly that they rarely have a chance to create gunners that come anywhere near the level of what they should be given the difficulty they are meant to represent. An increase in their training rate helps with this.
*Lugal* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 7:58 pm	Ah that makes sense. Of course, these modifiers are contingent on the gangs being 'kept in check' by player action. Is this a set amount, or is it going to be automated based on player activity? (ie, "the faster we kill 'em, the faster they train").
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 8:05 pm	*Lugal* said: Is this a set amount, or is it going to be automated based on player activity?  (ie, "the faster we kill 'em, the faster they train"). The discussion was just based on their training. Sam didn't specify HOW they train, but I assume it's the same way ours do - with events they survive plus weekly training. If so, it will NOT be as you say, but Sam is the only one who knows the details and the numbers.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 24, 2009, 8:13 pm	Concerning the increase in priate training: will the CR still be as high as it is currently or does this change replace the CR boost pirates were receiving? --- I don't quite understand that '5%' rule for perma-damage. Does that mean equipment within the 95%-100% range will not receive a reduction in integrity if they are damaged within that bracket (i.e. brought down to 95% or higher)? EDIT: I've found the answer to this in Wiki: no permanent damage will be added if the item takes less than 5% damage within the 95%-100% bracket.
*Lugal* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 8:14 pm	Oh no, what I meant is, what determines the training modifier mentioned in Sam's post? Badlands is listed as getting a x3 boost, whereas Firelight (eg) is getting a x2. This - based on what PT and Nine are saying - means that Badlands pirates are being beat down more (relative to their intended 'difficulty level') than Firelight pirates. Therefore they need a faster development rate to compensate. I get that, and I like it too. I'd rather have few, better opponents in harder areas than simply larger swarms of easy prey. But what if suddenly Longo et al stopped scouting in Badlands? Would they (the NPCs) maintain that x3 rate or would the modifier be reduced relative to ganger attrition due to player action? Or would they build up ubergangs of supersoldiers? I'm not arguing against it or anything, I'm just curious how it's set up - if it's an automated feature or a Sam-tweak.
pweelg Posted Aug 24, 2009, 10:51 pm	The Paranoid Tourist said: pweelg said: Why the increase on NPC training ? Simply to make the pirate gangs in those areas a bit more difficult. This way they are more powerful without just stacking up a bigger CR against you, which often just results in more loot for the hunter. Fine if that means they do actually take less cr against you, but i'm unsure how much that will affect looting because very often i will have to destroy engines to get them to demo and i wont run anything much off a 100% engine back
*Longo* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 10:54 pm	I havent made a weekly profit in months. And I was just saying to myself if it werent for town events, Id leave SS and Elms forever, not looking back. I had almost convinced myself to completely move out anyways. Now I will be moving all of my guys back to SS. At least we had a warning.
darthspanky Posted Aug 24, 2009, 11:03 pm	yeah when you get to be a big gang it costs alot more some may not understand that they just say sock it to the rich, i dont have a opionion either way on these rules but i do know we will be getting more stuff like this i bet.
*Longo* Posted Aug 24, 2009, 11:36 pm	At these increases, its going to cost me right around 1/2 a million a week just to operate my gang.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:01 am	Perhaps this is a good thing in terms of bringing new players on an even playing field with veterans? If the lockup and maintenance fees are higher rich veteran players will have to choose the rares they buy rather than cleaning out the markets. Veteran players will still have the luxury of experienced characters who will contribute to the continuing success of the gang at a cost that -however hightened- is still manageable. I'm not accusing anyone of playing the game wrong but I sure am in favor of a change in gameplay.
darthspanky Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:04 am	yep and good thing for you ya have a rc council who doesnt care what vets want they only help the poor helpless noobs who deserve all the rares after a few weeks lol boy i cant wait to come back and have some fun trying to liberate those weapons.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:15 am	Quote: i cant wait to come back and have some fun trying to liberate those weapons. Well, that will still be something that is possible despite the reviewed maintenance costs The change makes sense in my opinion: as things stand many veteran gangs hoard enough equipment to cover Somerset and the surrounding area in junk... Time for a big clean-up!
darthspanky Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:44 am	the noobs may like it now but once they get alot of stuff i bet they wont like it then hehe
Procyon Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:44 am	*sam* said: 2.  Increase the rate at which permanent-damage to equipment happens. It will be 3% each time the item is mended, rather than the current 1%. However, if the item is already within 5% of its maximum then it receives no permanent damage at all when fixed. Should this be a static 3% or a random 1-3%? Seems odd that I should have 10 engines at 94% but none at 95% or 93%
Groove Champion Posted Aug 25, 2009, 3:04 am	darthspanky said: the noobs may like it now but once they get alot of stuff i bet they wont like it then hehe Contrary to the notion you are entertaining, that change benefits no one. Lock-up costs will increase for new and old players alike. Truth be told, the veterans of the game have been widely rewarded for their perseverence by rare items they pay derisory maintenance for. If Sam had upped maintenance cost tenfold you would begin to have an argument that holds, but how can you possibly be worried about this increase when you're sitting on millions of dollars?!? This change isn't a problem unless you own far too much equipment. Longo mentioned he needs half a million dollars currently to break even on a weekly basis. Without attacking that argument, per-say, I'd be curious to know how much of that half-mil goes to maintaining a camp that grants you benefits beginning and intermediate players can't even begin to dream of... The bottom line is any change of this type would have caused the community to flare up in one regard or another, but in practice I imagine it will have an impact much less devastating than predicted by nay-sayers.
*Longo* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 3:17 am	Groove Champion said: darthspanky said: the noobs may like it now but once they get alot of stuff i bet they wont like it then hehe Contrary to the notion you are entertaining, that change benefits no one. Lock-up costs will increase for new and old players alike. Truth be told, the veterans of the game have been widely rewarded for their perseverence by rare items they pay derisory maintenance for. If Sam had upped maintenance cost tenfold you would begin to have an argument that holds, but how can you possibly be worried about this increase when you're sitting on millions of dollars?!? This change isn't a problem unless you own far too much equipment. Longo mentioned he needs half a million dollars currently to break even on a weekly basis. Without attacking that argument, per-say, I'd be curious to know how much of that half-mil goes to maintaining a camp that grants you benefits beginning and intermediate players can't even begin to dream of... The bottom line is any change of this type would have caused the community to flare up in one regard or another, but in practice I imagine it will have an impact much less devastating than predicted by nay-sayers. My BL garage fees alone I calculated at $230,010 per week. I didnt bother with the rest of the towns. As for camp fees, I have a small BL camp. With NPCs wages, I believe these are under 50k per week. With open Pvp I am making 3 lorries a month, and selling them to camp members at a very reasonable price. With brining in all the mats to camp, etc, I would think my monthly camp profit is about 150k per month. As for having "a camp that grants you benefits beginning and intermediate players can't even begin to dream of... " this is totally untrue. Sam has openly stated that anyone who wanted a camp and had the money to maintain one, could have one. Anybody can get a few buds together and build a camp, just the way Latte, Zoltan, and I did with Southern Pride. It will take alot of work and just won't be handed to you, but with hard work and teamwork it is easily attainable.
Zoltan Posted Aug 25, 2009, 3:47 am	I have tons of cash and equipment even though i have quit and gave it all away several times. But I play alot and can easily make 1mil a week just looting and scouting so do your damndest. But what about the part time player who has amassed alot of stuff. there is no way he will be able to maintain it. i think you are looking at a train wreck here. He shouldn't be penalized for playing only a few times a week and have to lose all the stuff he has amassed.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:01 am	He doesn't have to lose all his stuff... There's still no reason for owning excess vehicles if your volume of play is too low to maintain it. If a player can't afford to have 3 replacement Stormers in BL he keeps as insurance (for example), then he can sell them. Rares are supposed to be... rare.
Zoltan Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:54 am	Lol then what is the point of the game? If not to amass stuff everyone has their vision i guess, but WOW and the like were about levelling up and attaining more. if you take that away I think you are asking for trouble. Just my opinion.
Crazy AL Posted Aug 25, 2009, 5:02 am	*sam* said: 2.  Increase the rate at which permanent-damage to equipment happens. It will be 3% each time the item is mended, rather than the current 1%. However, if the item is already within 5% of its maximum then it receives no permanent damage at all when fixed. Does anyone else think this will make getting a renowned, famous or legendary vehicles a thing of the past? I realize that good crews and good strategy usually maintain cars in excellent condition during scouts, however we all know that things go bad sometimes and there's no chance to avoid chassis damage 100% of the time. With the amount of scouts it takes to get a car to that known, I can't imagine a car making it with the deterioration that will take place.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 25, 2009, 5:15 am	Zoltan said: Lol then what is the point of the game? If not to amass stuff everyone has their vision i guess, but WOW and the like were about levelling up and attaining more. if you take that away I think you are asking for trouble. Just my opinion. What I really meant is that it is entirely possible to play the game properly without having a bunch of rares. Stocking up rares in a world that produces them ad infinitum is a little bit ironic in my opinion. I'm just glad to see people will have to pick and choose what they keep and play smart instead of stockpiling.
BWGunner Posted Aug 25, 2009, 5:19 am	Hurumph. I do wonder what the basis of sweeping changes like these are. I mean, in the Rules Council's perfect world how are we supposed to be acting, because evidently our behavior is not what someone has in mind. These changes won't make me move my operations out of Somerset. Isn't that one of the things we're trying to encourage? Or do I have that wrong and casual gamers like me (with over 1.5 years of time) are really just doomed to haunting Somerset? I firmly side with the "hey, this isn't a simulation" camp and think the pursuit of realism through taxes and limits is absurd. Play with the economy (you know, by making some stuff hard to find and others common, depending on where you are...as opposed to offering the same crap everywhere just at different prices) if you want to see sweeping changes... stuff that would add variety and competition. Texture. Like when you killed fuel in Gateway, that was a good change. More of that. This stuff seems to me to be just barriers to play in order to rope in some veterans who appear to be hoarding or something...and who cares? The last change was a pain, but I got over it and found other ways to work the system. That's what we do...and control is an illusion. More texture, less control. Let the chaos of a loose system determine its own order. Besides, discouraging the amassing of wealth and cars and rare weapons seems antithetical. What do I have to look forward to now?
simonmaxhill Posted Aug 25, 2009, 6:44 am	I don't mind the garage fee increase, but I do think that the prizes for pro events need to be adjusted likewise, or even more, given that to participate in pro events you have to keep a large, well stocked garage.
wounded Posted Aug 25, 2009, 6:46 am	I like the permanent damage change. This way you won't be instantly penalized for getting slight damage. The increase in maintenance fees without getting anything for your money on the other hand is something that I was hoping was not going to be implemented. Having to maintenance your garage in each town could have added more gameplay while being a money sink at the same time. The gameplay consequences of increased maintenance cost and wages might be difficult to predict. I would suspect that the prices of the rare cars on markets will increase as the pirates in the tougher town will be tougher (which is a nice addition if maintained properly) and the price of operating in the tougher towns will be significantly higher. Also as the players who loot the rare cars can't simply hold so many of them in reserve, they will probably see them as more rare and valuable. I hope the implemented changes will work as planned...
Serephe Posted Aug 25, 2009, 6:53 am	Love all the changes. Kudos.
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 7:04 am	Crazy Al said: Does anyone else think this will make getting a renowned, famous or legendary vehicles a thing of the past? I realize that good crews and good strategy usually maintain cars in excellent condition during scouts, however we all know that things go bad sometimes and there's no chance to avoid chassis damage 100% of the time. With the amount of scouts it takes to get a car to that known, I can't imagine a car making it with the deterioration that will take place. Why should it be a thing of the past? Before this change every time you took chassis damage perma-damage came in to effect. From asking around and personal experience minor chassis damage (<5%) is easily by far the most common (e.g. minor armour penetration, collision etc). This should balance out in favour of the players.
Serephe Posted Aug 25, 2009, 7:33 am	Indeed. And just because you take a little chassis damage, doesn't mean you need to get rid of the car -- drive it till it dies, I say.
*sam* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:20 am	One of the things that increased garage and lockup fees does is make camp-based storage relatively better value. The garage and maintenance fees we currently have are the ones I plucked out of the air when developing the game, based on guesstimates. There's a lot more money around than I thought there would be at that time. With regard to increased perma-damage: don't forget that camps are now producing more rares than ever before. One camp is currently producing ambulances. It's better to have rares that are attainable and also destroyable rather than them being so rare that you're scared to ever use them.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:27 am	After Longos post and reading others i decided to check out costings for myself, now if i read the changes right, for just the FT i have in BL will now cost me $ 9000 a week. WHAT THE HELL this seems to be a game breaker for me and maybe others, this will dramatically change the way the game is played, to its detrement. Now if i decide to sell all my rares, what are they worth ? well nothing because nobody will want to purchase a vehicle that costs so much to keep. Why isnt there a minimum storage amount for vehicles that you can keep before massive hikes in prices ? what about being able to own lock up space for rares ? this seems all very arbitary and anti the playing style of nearly all. As stated by others, what is there to accomplish if it isnt the ownership of a nice garage, thats what basically kept me here from the start, seing what others own, and wanting a little piece of that action. I may be on all the time but still cannot scout the amount some do, i will never be able to keep my garage going or my gang for that matter, what with the spreading of gear to shanty and texan, i dont think this has been thought out very well by the RC considering everything else that has been implemented. *Edit* are the Garage fees showing present cost per vehicle or the new cost , same question for lockup
*sam* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:35 am	Forget it, I won't change anything then.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:42 am	*sam* said: Forget it, I won't change anything then. Sam i can understand changes being wanted and required for game balance, this just seems like a major change and questions will be asked, i myself never really checked my garage fees and now am uncertain to what figures i am reviewing whether they are the old costs i am seeing or the new costs that will be implemented. I apologise if you find the tone of my post derogatory.
*Longo* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:52 am	*sam* said: Forget it, I won't change anything then. For what its worth, I think 1, 2, and 4, although "Anti-Longo," are all great ideas. With the gang's training harder, I expect I will be losing more, reducing my garage. But I want to have a garage of cars to lose. With #3, I have no choice but to move the majority of my gang to SS. My honest plans with #3 implemented are to move all but maybe 10 cars from BL to SS. I already asked around for others to help move them. Also store what I can in camp. Scout just in SS and Elms. Abandon FL, Sars, and Shanty completely(I had moved a small crew to shanty to "browse" Pvp). Ill keep a skeleton crew in BL and Texan only maybe 3 man crews, and everyone else will be in Elms and SS. If thats what you intended, so be it. I already accepted the fact. Check my roster, Ive got crews traveling as we speak. I already pulled 1 crew out of Texan and they are on the long trek back. Ive already made 1 run with spare gear to camp. I dont like it, but accepted it. Ill burn my 20+ million down to nothing before I give up my garage of cars though. And when the money is gone and I cant maintain them, then its time for me to find another hobby.
Serephe Posted Aug 25, 2009, 11:08 am	*sam* said: One of the things that increased garage and lockup fees does is make camp-based storage relatively better value. The garage and maintenance fees we currently have are the ones I plucked out of the air when developing the game, based on guesstimates. There's a lot more money around than I thought there would be at that time. With regard to increased perma-damage: don't forget that camps are now producing more rares than ever before. One camp is currently producing ambulances. It's better to have rares that are attainable and also destroyable rather than them being so rare that you're scared to ever use them. Indeed, which is why I liked the changes. Honestly, in my mind, gangs should be smaller -- running only a handful of vehicles, either staying in one area or traveling. At the moment, I can have 2 cars in every town scouting constantly, and still have enough gang members to do several travel encounters... plus I can hold hundreds of cars, guns and engines in storage for almost no cost to myself.
*viKKing* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:22 pm	*sam* said: Forget it, I won't change anything then. Could we have numbers to figure out what would these changes really means?
*viKKing* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 12:23 pm	*sam* said: Forget it, I won't change anything then. Could we have numbers to figure out what would these changes really means?
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 1:17 pm	Guys - When sam says things like - *sam* said: Forget it, I won't change anything then. - I have to think that it's in response to terms like "game breaker" and "I'll have to find another hobby." Ask yourself, is the only reason you're here because the lockup fees are as low as they are? If these had been the fees all along then you wouldn't be playing today, right? I understand there's a fine line to tread... You have your hard earned money you're spending on the game and you have your valuable time that gets spent either here or somewhere else. The game has to earn that. I understand and respect that. I also understand and respect Sam and his vision for the game. Do I personally like every change? No. Part of me thinks that peds don't even belong in the game because to *ME* it's "car wars 6.0" so let's stick to cars. Do I ask for them to be removed or say it's a "game breaker" if they stay? No. I adapt and continue playing my new favorite game. I personally think PvP should be around in all forms in all places, but that's not happening. Do I quit because of it? No. The game doesn't allow it so I don't fret it. I remember people saying months ago when Perma-Damage was implemented that it would be the death of the game, etc. It wasn't and it isn't. Increased lockup fees in other parts of the game won't be the death of it either. Some may have to make huge choices, but that's part of the game too. Putting on my RC member hat, I want to tell the people that think this is a vet nerf that in no way, shape or form was ANY of this designed, modified or otherwise discussed as a vet bashing tool or nerf to the vets or whatever you want to call it. This was considered and discussed as a natural part of the game that's been overlooked for a long time because our developer has been spending his time on other things FOR US to enjoy in the game. It is not now nor has it ever been the RC's intention to create "game breakers." We have never gone about to "change the game for the worse" or "make it hard on the vets." We know that some changes will affect vets MORE but we also recognize that vets are the ones that can afford a change more. When the newbie gets to where he can travel anywhere in Even with semi-confidence, he'll be at that status and have to make some decisions too. Please, I know there will be whingers (there always are in ANY community), but try to take a deep breath and choose your words carefully. Jimmy
Serephe Posted Aug 25, 2009, 1:27 pm	*jimmylogan* said: Guys...  [snip] ...Jimmy I was too lazy and unqualified to type something like this up, thanks Jimmy and I agree with all you said.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 25, 2009, 1:54 pm	Anybody want to buy an apachee or four
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 2:48 pm	Thanks Jimmy for putting things so well.
BWGunner Posted Aug 25, 2009, 2:53 pm	Perhaps, as I suggested, someone from the Rules Council would like to explain, point by point, what the intent of these changes is so we don't all freak out some more. I concur that many are wise, but some seem to be targeting key demographics, whether they were intended to or not. What was the intent?
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 3:54 pm	BWGunner said: Perhaps, as I suggested, someone from the Rules Council would like to explain, point by point, what the intent of these changes is so we don't all freak out some more. These were the culmination of discussions that had been going on for a long time. Latte, Goat, Nojj - others were involved in the discussion and voting on an ongoing basis. I'm not sure that we can satisfy everyone without rehashing everything and/or just copy/paste some of the discussion. The main thing is that it was proposed a long time ago and has since gone through several iterations before finally being settled on what Sam posted. This was done in accordance with the normal workings/agreements/disagreements of the RC and was very above board. I'm not sure how specific you want before you don't "freak out" (not just you, BW, that's an editorial 'you'). I guess we have to ask for faith in Sam and the RC. JL
Jety Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:19 pm	Has increasing the lockup/CR capacity of camps been discussed? If the purpose is to add realism in that a town can't hold 1000 cars then this would be a good mitigating change. If the purpose is just to take things away from players, then this would defeat the purpose. (Incidentally, if there was some freaking transparency in the rules council there wouldn't be so much bitching right now. Who would have thought that 5 people in secret making decisions for the whole game could cause such a stir? Hmmm. But I digress.) As it is, no one seems to know WHY this change is being made. "It's been discussed for a long time". "The numbers date back to the beginning of the game". "The plan has been iterated on many times". None of this answers the basic question: How does this make Darkwind a better game? What is the actual goal?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:21 pm	If / When this is implemented i hope we will get a week or hopefully two to address the overload in garages, will a server date be posted in this section and a confirmation this is going live
*Ayjona* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:21 pm	As a vet, I'm all for these changes. Sam and RC, brilliant job! Darkwind might be very hardcore, but in spite of that, many players have bizarre amounts of vehicles (peek a sneak at this, for an example of a gang that has grown so big that, while the player in question certainly has deserved all of those vehicles, there is little more to achieve) . "Gangs" is no longer appropriate. "Fleets" are more like it Changes such as these could offer new challenges for vets, and give us all even greater heights to strive towards. However (and this is my only "however"), if the small (and dangerous) towns will be so very expensive to keep equipment and vehicles in, those towns might need to offer greater incentive for players. It is no secret most of us still scout in SS, because the gains sissy pirates yield outweight the pros of running the more dangerous areas.
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:32 pm	I think we have covered the increase in training rate already. What follows is my take on things only. The increase in garage costs and wages are designed to address issues with the economy (rampant inflation from an unending supply of loot cars). Whilst there are those who wish to be collectors, at least in canon/RP terms there is a strong argument against allowing massive garages (or allowing it but making it very expensive) - protected real estate would be expensive. It also makes a rather good money-sink that helps with the rampant inflation. Rampant inflation only widens the gap between established players and new players. Established players have the crew and equipment to make plenty of money, new players don't. This in turn affects the player market prices which puts certain items beyond the realistic reach of both casual players and newer players within a reasonable timeframe (as the new player makes 100k, the established player makes 500k - prices keep rising etc). This has a negative affect on retention of players - which is bad for us all. These changes are not, in my mind, aimed at a key demographic, but a game wide issue. There are certain demographics that will have to make harder choices but not intentionally. As has already been mentioned, you don't actually need a massive garage of cars to scout from anywhere. As an aside this is a lesson I am having to learn as well regarding being a 'collector'. My apologies if I have rambled on a bit.
*viKKing* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:37 pm	Could we consider an option for players not able to pay the required amount of money needed after the changes are in integrated ? I mean vehicles and /or equipment in a given area lacking the money for the extra care would be subject to permanent damages due to acid rain, etc on a random basis. Some vehicles could even be stolen. This would be a opportunity for broke people not to lose eveything at once and add some RP flavour.
Twisted Feather Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:53 pm	viKKing said: Could we consider an option for players not able to pay the required amount of money needed after the changes are in integrated ? Agree this needs to be 'smoothed' in somehow - possibly giving users a preview of what their weekly costs will be be prior to it going live. I can see the point of these changes thanks to the various explanations, and I hope I can keep my recently formed outposts 'down south' going (although can see I'll need to run more kit that I want to keep back to SS under the new system). The main thing I'm worried about when it goes live is the immediate hit for a couple of weeks. At the moment I know how much my weekly costs are and how much I need to keep in the bank on a Thursday evening. If these changes go live and my bank account is wiped, resulting in my best gangers taking a hike then it *will* be difficult to keep playing... (just my 2c)
BWGunner Posted Aug 25, 2009, 4:58 pm	Great answer, Nine. I just want incentive to get OUT of Somerset. The last change actually pushed me back into Newbie town just to pay the bills. This one looks to have similar impact...but perhaps I'm naive. But at least I understand the intent. If the massive garages that will be impacted are all ok with this change...well...let's see what happens. We trust you guys, you know, we just want...as was suggested...some transparency.
wounded Posted Aug 25, 2009, 5:02 pm	*sam* said: This is advance warning that the changes below are going to be implemented soon. In the case of #3, I will have your Lockups page show future cost for a period of 1 week, so you know exactly how you will be impacted and have time to react before the changes are made permanent. Sam has already adressed this in his initial post.
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Aug 25, 2009, 6:25 pm	On a slight tangent, my $.02 would be to allow us to breakdown items in town, not just at camps. I am getting more involved with camps, to add some spice to the game for me, but can't/won't be able to keep loot cars in town until able to transfer them to camp to breakdown and donate various components. I would rather pay higher garage fees for components that I have broken down then for damaged cars waiting for me to have the nerve to run them to camp. Now back to your regularly scheduled program...
Twisted Feather Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:08 pm	wounded said: *sam* said: This is advance warning that the changes below are going to be implemented soon. In the case of #3, I will have your Lockups page show future cost for a period of 1 week, so you know exactly how you will be impacted and have time to react before the changes are made permanent. Sam has already adressed this in his initial post. I really should learn to read more carefully Thanks for the clarification!
*viKKing* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:13 pm	BWGunner said: I just want incentive to get OUT of Somerset. Good point. One solution would be to really remove specialisms learning from Somerset. You would yet be able to train basic skills there, but would need to move Southern to learn and increased them. They also needs to be evenly spread around the whole world, so each town has something special to propose. I know there is still a town missing... you can blame me.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:14 pm	I am adamantly favorable to the increase in garage fees. For those worried about nobody being interested in buying their over-stock think again: this is a golden opportunity for intermediate players to get their hands on vehicles they've only dreamed of up to now. I'll gladly pay 9K a week for a Firetruck in BL because I don't have an armada of unused vehicles to park around it. As a counter-point to what has been written here: the game is broken, this is a game fixer.
Marrkos Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:17 pm	viKKing said: One solution would be to really remove specialisms learning from Somerset. You would yet be able to train basic skills there, but would need to move Southern to learn and increased them. They also needs to be evenly spread around the whole world, so each town has something special to propose. While I am all for making the each town unique, I don't think spreading Specialism selection amongst them is a good way to do it.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:36 pm	I have mellowed during the day after reading the comments here, i can see the wider implications which this garage fee will bring, initial reactionary position is withdrawn, so ill have to keep a slim lined garage so be it, vehicles and weapons already on market i always say i want gritty, i shouldn't argue with myself ( its just the accumulator in me, my second name is Horder after all )
*goat starer* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:38 pm	what i wanna know is what Sam is spending all these lockup fees on? I bet the Clarinbridge watumacallits drive everywhere in gold plated ambulances payed for by the sweat of our brows!
*goat starer* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:40 pm	*Grograt* said: After Longos post and reading others i decided to check out costings for myself, now if i read the changes right, for just the FT i have in BL will now cost me $ 9000 a week. WHAT THE HELL this seems to be a game breaker for me and maybe others, this will dramatically change the way the game is played, to its detrement. grograt.. the only reason 9k seems unreasonable ius because you never actually USE the firetruck... which I might add was acquired most dubiously when Little Horse did all the work.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 25, 2009, 8:40 pm	I confer, now im going to prep the FT and make it earn its keep, as it should be in an apocalyptic setting, not sitting there being polished all day
*goat starer* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 9:24 pm	well it has been said that you spend far too much time polishing your hose!
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:14 pm	*sam* said: 3. Increase garage fees and lockup fees, especially in the small towns. SS: x1 Elms/SF/TX: x2 BL/FL/GW/SV: x6 Since Shanty already has so little going for it, I'd suggest that it's garage and lockup fees be set at Somerset's rates, or even lower. It is a low population density backwater- and since I personally live in a backwater- I can attest that rent and storage are much much cheaper than a metropolis. One could say that space is a premium in the small towns but that's a pretty irrelevant and highly abstract concept when town maps in no way reflect actual size. Shantyville is a place where you can make your own shack if you want, forget renting! People can store their massive fleets in shanty for a song (i.e. cheap) if they want to... IMO Somerset should be the most expensive place, hands down. It is the New York of Evan. There's likely to be a LOT of people there. You can get anything you want- but it should cost you an arm and a leg.  When Somer gets to that point where its too expensive, you're probably a vet and can spread your wings anyway. if you want to avoid hurting the newbs, give them some food, fuel, and water (and let them draw sustenance expenses from their personal stores rather than town default), a grace period on lockups and garage, and let them feel good about growing their gang enough to want to move on and establish a presence elsewhere.
*viKKing* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 10:47 pm	Somerset has to be different than other towns. Its goal is to be the mothertown for newbies, discovering the game and its world. But it is also the place vets are driving to sale their goods and participate into famous events. In the end maybe Somerset needs to be splitted. Inside for newbies and outside for veterans. The external zone is used to store goods for sale and for veterans settling during events, but they are not allowed to get in. They can't use the hospital, nor the tavern. Such settlements would cost money based on their size. There is a need to create an incentive for veterans to get back and race there. Fame could be boosted when participating in Somersert leagues and gang with the best fame should be announced atop the site, like a banner. That's real fame. New gangers could obviously be recruited from other towns as well, for a decent amount of money. At the same time, as we decided - a long time ago - Elmsfield had to be very special and we headed toward increasing its medecine behaviour, maybe healing could even be better there, and with a proper amount of money and some risks, regain activity permanently lost. For example it could cost DW$ 100,000 to restore 1% in activity to a character that would have lost a limb. The main concern is : what is a veteran, and how to define if one should be entitled to enter Somerset and newbie zone or not?
metrocube Posted Aug 25, 2009, 11:07 pm	Al, you're absolutely right. Sam, if you are considering making cars have 1/3rd the shelf life, consider also adjusting fame requirements for car titles accordingly to 33% of the current requirements. Crazy AL said: *sam* said: 2.  Increase the rate at which permanent-damage to equipment happens. It will be 3% each time the item is mended, rather than the current 1%. However, if the item is already within 5% of its maximum then it receives no permanent damage at all when fixed. Does anyone else think this will make getting a renowned, famous or legendary vehicles a thing of the past? I realize that good crews and good strategy usually maintain cars in excellent condition during scouts, however we all know that things go bad sometimes and there's no chance to avoid chassis damage 100% of the time. With the amount of scouts it takes to get a car to that known, I can't imagine a car making it with the deterioration that will take place.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 25, 2009, 11:39 pm	totally disagree with that Metro... being renowned should be very rare.. being famous should be VERY rare... and there should be at most one or two legendary vehicles in the game. If all of everyones cars become renowned then you might as well not have the title. Your cars will still become renowned but only if they are played well and have a fair amount of good luck.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 26, 2009, 12:11 am	In the interest of attracting players outside Somerset: It might be interesting to have different weapons available in specific towns. For example Firelight could be the one place to purchase rocket weapons, what with the abundant sulfur production from the area's volcanoes. Texan could be specialised in oil jets and flaming oil jets, having tons (literally!) of oil to waste as ammunition. Sarsfield and the ajoining salt flats could be an ideal area to test and produce rocket boosters and nitro boosters... The point is each town would have one or two weapons they produce abundantly, that are unavailable on the NPC market anywhere else in Evan. Of course a core of basic weapons (machineguns?) would have to be available in all towns to avoid breaking the game. ----- I like Vikking's idea of splitting Somerset into a newb-friendly centre surrounded by a vet-populated ghetto with limited services. Forcing vets to travel to other towns to recruit gangers and receive full services is a great way (and a viable one) to force more experienced gangers to seek fortune and adventure elsewhere. I'm particularly fond of your suggestion of turning elmsfield into a hub for physical readaptation following a permanent loss of activity. Talk about an interesting money sink! Keeping the majority of league events within Somerset would prevent a complete exodus of experienced players from the north, I'm impartial to the fame boost. The bottom line is: EXCELLENT POST, VIKKING!
*Longo* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 12:19 am	So I post I am moving all my guys to SS, and already this post turns into how to nerf SS.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 12:23 am	i think we should replace SS with a ball pool and childrens play area so Longos people have something to do when they get there!
*Longo* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 12:25 am	goat starer said: i think we should replace SS with a ball pool and childrens play area so Longos people have something to do when they get there!  No need goat. Its paintball season, Ill have plenty to do!
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 12:32 am	i have a great idea.... why dont we make it so that the cost of accomodation in SS for players with the letters O N G L and O in their name is much higher than everywhere else... I suggest a 4000% increase on character wages. and make them train at 1/3 the rate of players with the letters S R R A G A T T O E in their name. and make their guns fire beanbags.
Marrkos Posted Aug 26, 2009, 12:57 am	Could we get that wage increase prorated based on how many of those letters we have in our names? That way those of use with only one or two of the letters don't get hammered with the full 4000%.
BWGunner Posted Aug 26, 2009, 2:53 am	Two things in this thread I've long been a proponent of. Neither are a part of this subject, but I'll follow Vikk's lead any time. 1. Move products around so certain towns have certain product lines. I cannot understand how this would be difficult to do, and the benefits to the game are self-explanatory. Extend this to chassis, motors, etc. The reliance on Hero points has never made any sense. Just getting there and driving them around is hard enough. 2. Somerset is not a newbie town. I believe we need an actual corral for newbs that requires a series of successful tasks to be complete in order to leave it....ala WOW. After that, tragically nerf Somerset encounters. Make them uber easy, but about the best you'll ever see is a Symph with a micro missile launcher and a medium machine gun. Make hunting Somerset easy, to help new players over the threshold...but so boring and low revenue that nobody in their right mind would use it as a primary camp. We now return you to the previously scheduled programming.
Crazy AL Posted Aug 26, 2009, 6:28 am	Serephe said: Indeed. And just because you take a little chassis damage, doesn't mean you need to get rid of the car -- drive it till it dies, I say. Oh I agree with your feeling in that you use a car until you can't use it anymore, especially if it gets famous. I just don't see many current cars making it that far with the system change. That leaves all the cars that are currently out there that are already famous experiencing the advantage of not having to deal with the perma-damage system until AFTER they got their current status.
wounded Posted Aug 26, 2009, 6:39 am	I don't really see the big fuss about the damage system. Having a free lunch if your chassis is damaged less than 5% is a major improvement to chassis lifetime at least for me. And when you think about the famous cars, which one is more likely to become famous: the car that has never been scratched despite hundreds of combats or the one that gets nearly totaled every time it enters the fray? Well, ok I can see both getting famous, but which one would you be more scared to see on the opposing side?
Crazy AL Posted Aug 26, 2009, 6:59 am	goat starer said: totally disagree with that Metro... being renowned should be very rare.. being famous should be VERY rare... and there should be at most one or two legendary vehicles in the game. If all of everyones cars become renowned then you might as well not have the title. Your cars will still become renowned but only if they are played well and have a fair amount of good luck. At this point I don't have a single car that I brought up myself that has any kind of title. I appreciate the fact that it takes a while to do so and I wholeheartedly and completely agree that it should take a while. I also agree with the current (Not this new system) of perma-damage which was a new addition since I have come back and had zero problem with it. A car put out into combat should not last forever no matter what kind of vehicle it is when it's getting blasted 3 times a week with HMGs, HGGs, RLs etc. However, the perma-damage system that is proposed seems a little steep to me. I highly doubt that those few cars out there now that have titles will be getting much company. I believe a little larger gap between 100% and repairable back to 100% should be implemented. I don't have a problem with the increase in deterioration. Good strategic play in combat with your cars SHOULD be rewarded by getting them to known status among the pirates. As for the increase in costs, the bottom line is many people will be pulling up stakes and moving back to SS with the majority of their stuff. The majority of my stuff is already in SS, but I still intend on moving almost all my cars out of BL, GW & Elms and back to SS except for a small crew and the minimal number of cars that allow me to scout and run transports. I think increasing costs is warranted, however the mass exodus back to SS might be an unintended and unwanted by product of the change. I think giving gangs a good reason to stay in the other towns is pretty important given the change. From a developer's standpoint, if a lot of people migrate back to SS to avoid costs, you are wasting all of the time, energy and effort that went into creating all of those other areas if only a handfull of people actually experience them. I hate to compare DW to some of the MMO games out there, but when EQ started expanding to other continents and areas to play, they basically emptied and made obsolete all of the original areas. The zones were like ghost towns. Just seems like a waste to me.
Crazy AL Posted Aug 26, 2009, 7:00 am	goat starer said: i have a great idea.... why dont we make it so that the cost of accomodation in SS for players with the letters O N G L and O in their name is much higher than everywhere else... I suggest a 4000% increase on character wages. and make them train at 1/3 the rate of players with the letters S R R A G A T T O E in their name. and make their guns fire beanbags. LOL!
metrocube Posted Aug 26, 2009, 7:21 am	goat starer said: totally disagree with that Metro... I was reminding Sam that changing the car damage numbers would affect the rarity of titled cars, and that fame levels would need adjusting to keep the status quo. Are you disagreeing with my premise, or do you disagree that the new system should have just as many titled cars as there are now? If the latter, that sounds like a new game change that ought to be suggested in the suggestions forum. My premise is based on the tendency of players to sell cars that get beat up past a certain point.  When car decay is accelerated by 3x, they will have 1/3rd the lifespan.
wounded Posted Aug 26, 2009, 7:25 am	Crazy AL said: As for the increase in costs, the bottom line is many people will be pulling up stakes and moving back to SS with the majority of their stuff. The majority of my stuff is already in SS, but I still intend on moving almost all my cars out of BL, GW & Elms and back to SS except for a small crew and the minimal number of cars that allow me to scout and run transports. I think increasing costs is warranted, however the mass exodus back to SS might be an unintended and unwanted by product of the change. What will actually happen is actually not that clear at this point and the mass exodus is just the worst case scenario that can happen as few players overreact. Given time, things will smooth out and people will get rid of extra crap in their garage and see what they can support. People will soon notice that somerset is not a viable base of operations for veteran players and move back south. Somerset has been very slim on the opponents for quite some time now and if veteran players move towards somerset, we won't be seeing any pirates above fame 25 in there.
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 8:07 am	Quote: When car decay is accelerated by 3x, they will have 1/3rd the lifespan. I fail to understand this assumption. Permanent damage has been trebled but the occurrence of permanent damage for chassis will drop. Purely as an example not all of my titled vehicles have permanent damage, those that do have permanent damage have often lost a percent here and there from a minor breach or being rammed (in all likelihood engine and weapon damage will exceed the 5% threshold pretty much every time). Having spoken to other players this seems to be the more common situation.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 26, 2009, 1:15 pm	Not all will move out, i myslef have my fleet of Buzzers that will still work out of BL and I will also keep scouting GW i understand the premis behind the changes now, and agree with them. If you have a fleet of 12+ Apachees sitting in BL that never get used, what really is the point, the Renegade gang must have had a parking area the size of a football pitch just in BL ( god knows how much space i was taking up in SS ) im surprised my fleet wasnt under continual attack from pirates as they would have made very easy pickings. when you consider the actual x6 increase it isnt that unachievable if the vehicles you have based at BL or GW are a reasonable size, if you have rares coming out of your ears either move them to a camp with space, move them too a cheaper town, or spread the wealth. When you actually sit back from the game and consider how it is now, too how it will be with the change, nothing but a more realistic situation will occur, more management will be required of the scouting vehicles you will use, and if you want the larger fleet then the finances will have to be earned for them. I for one am looking forward to this extra challenge, it certainly has woken up the strategist in me
*Longo* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 1:20 pm	That fleet of buzzers will be nothing but a heap of scrap with those npcs in BL training at 3x, hehe. And you wont have any spares either cause your garage will be toned down.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 1:21 pm	metrocube said: goat starer said: totally disagree with that Metro... I was reminding Sam that changing the car damage numbers would affect the rarity of titled cars, and that fame levels would need adjusting to keep the status quo. Are you disagreeing with my premise, or do you disagree that the new system should have just as many titled cars as there are now? If the latter, that sounds like a new game change that ought to be suggested in the suggestions forum. My premise is based on the tendency of players to sell cars that get beat up past a certain point.  When car decay is accelerated by 3x, they will have 1/3rd the lifespan. i disagree with both... for nines reason that permadamage will not necessarily be much more of an issue and because i doubt Sam really intentended it to be the case that so many vehicles would get renowned status... I suspect... but Sam can tell you himself... that he thouht people and vehicles would die more and, like lockup fees, the fame accrual of vehicles was a sticking a finger in the air job.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 1:23 pm	and latte... i suspect that most people will continue to scout BL for the challenge and the loot. The only reason most people who currently scout BL do not do FL instead is the maps.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 26, 2009, 1:27 pm	Longo said: That fleet of buzzers will be nothing but a heap of scrap with those npcs in BL training at 3x, hehe. And you wont have any spares either cause your garage will be toned down. I have not toned down what i use, i am selling or have sold everything i don't use and isn't appropriate for scouting in these towns, if it makes BL harder and if i lose a buzzer or two, im sure with the increase of fame that these gangs will gain by killing peeps, i will also come across more Buzzers. Maybe its time for me to lose equipment, i have grown to complacent that when scouting i hardly if ever lose anything ( vehicles and gang members ) time for this to get very real All this is just my opinion, not attempting to smite others game style or be personal in anyway
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 2:10 pm	Personally I have just moved all my people TO Badlands in anticipation off the fun!
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 2:48 pm	On the perma-damage thing - the reason it could go DOWN is because anything less than 5% will be repairable, or at least that's the way I read it. IOW - you have a 100% chassis that gets in a bump. New chassis strength is 96%. It will be repairable to 100%. If it ever drops below 95%, then it will have a max of 97%, but the new "threshold" will be 92%. Above that and it can be repaired over and over back to 97%.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:08 pm	Here's my experience with permadamage... nothing I've had has ever gotten to an 'unusable' point. I lost my favorite car recently, a renowned laser Buccy, and it was at 94% health, mainly because I didn't want to repair 1-2% damage. The new change sounds like it will be very advantageous to those who take the rare breach or collision with damage 5% less than the max. My experience is that before an item gets to an 'unusable' point (for me that would be when an engine starts smoking, or a weapon at 90%) I tend to suffer a catastrophic loss that would result in the destruction of the chassis or weapon no matter what its health was. When perma damage was first brought into play (I was probably the most vocal advocate for it) I gave away 5 heavy gatlings to a few newbs and vets that didn't have them- with the request that they report to me when they hit 90%. They get destroyed before they ever hit that 90% point. So for weapons at least I don't think the new change will be much of an issue. You would have to suffer 4 major breaches or collisions before the weapon was at a point I consider 'unreliable'. Chassis, in my experience, tend to take damage in 1-2% increments. The new change, if I understand it correctly (EDIT: the way jimmy explained it above) would actually preserve my cars longer. I would still be using the Haunted Buccy even if it was 84% health, or even lower. A famous car is like the Millennium Falcon... not in the best of shape but you can't deny style!
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:40 pm	Dr Mathias said: A famous car is like the Millennium Falcon... not in the best of shape but you can't deny style! One of my new favorite quotes. I also don't fret (no pun intended) over dings and scratches on my guitar as long as it's not unplayable. I've had it since 1990 and it sounds better than anything "new" I find in the stores. I say those little "dings" just give it character.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:49 pm	*jimmylogan* said: I also don't fret (no pun intended) over dings and scratches on my guitar as long as it's not unplayable. I've had it since 1990 and it sounds better than anything "new" I find in the stores. I say those little "dings" just give it character. LOL - no fretting here... On a related note- it would be waaaay sweet if in addition to a courage boost a renowned or famous car got another random trait, unknown to the owner- something like: 1. 5% increase to acceleration in first two turns (or Jumpstart +1) 2. Additional 5 points of stress to enemies 3. Chassis strength increase (not health) 4. +1 Offensive driver 5. +1 Defensive driver etc. to represent that 'something extra' those little dings suggest
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:50 pm	WOW - now that's a cool suggestion - take it to that thread so it doesn't get lost?
*Lugal* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:51 pm	Jimmy, thanks for clarifying the permage change.  That was my understanding, but with all the fuss I was questioning my interpretation. IMO, Doc is absolutely right.  This change will mean vehicles being usable longer, because unless you're taking major hits every engagement, the chassis can shrug it off with no lasting effects. I have titled two cars through use.  The Famous Shai Hulud has (IIRC) has never taken chassis damage (internals yes...).  The Renowned Limerick has taken chassis damage, and now sits around 98 or 99%.  Under the new system, it'd still be at 100%. Question: Does this affect loot cars with their 'one time freebie' back to 100%?  eg, if I loot a rare at 76% chassis, can I get it back to 100% or will it start it's career with me at 97% (or less!)?
*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:53 pm	AFAIK it only affects repairs AFTER that first time freebie.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 4:53 pm	i like that one.... especially the stress to opposition... the "oh crap... that apache... its not... its bloody Recent Convert! leg it!" response.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 26, 2009, 5:06 pm	goat starer said: i like that one.... especially the stress to opposition... the "oh crap... that apache... its not... its bloody Recent Convert! leg it!" response. Or the ... Look its them Special Circumstances boys ... hope they have brought us more free food and water
Crazy AL Posted Aug 26, 2009, 5:22 pm	goat starer said: metrocube said: goat starer said: totally disagree with that Metro... I was reminding Sam that changing the car damage numbers would affect the rarity of titled cars, and that fame levels would need adjusting to keep the status quo. Are you disagreeing with my premise, or do you disagree that the new system should have just as many titled cars as there are now? If the latter, that sounds like a new game change that ought to be suggested in the suggestions forum. My premise is based on the tendency of players to sell cars that get beat up past a certain point.  When car decay is accelerated by 3x, they will have 1/3rd the lifespan. i disagree with both... for nines reason that permadamage will not necessarily be much more of an issue and because i doubt Sam really intentended it to be the case that so many vehicles would get renowned status... I suspect... but Sam can tell you himself... that he thouht people and vehicles would die more and, like lockup fees, the fame accrual of vehicles was a sticking a finger in the air job. Unless you actually know the number of titled vehicles, I am not sure you can say "...that so many vehicles would get renowned status". If you add up the total number of cars owned by gangs, NOT including inactive gangs, I bet the number of titled vehicles is less than 3%. I myself have over 100 cars (a lot I know, but I like to collect rare chassis & paintjobs), and I have ONE titled car. I have been around for a while, but certainly not as long as some. I am guessing long-time veteran player's percentage of titled vehicles is nearer to 5%, max. This may be as Sam intended and if that's the case then great. We have reached this steady state of a small percentage of titled cars with the current system. Changing the damage system to chassis WILL change the ability for cars to reached titled status. I believe it will make it more difficult. If LESS titled cars now and in the future is part of Sam's vision, then so be it and I will go right along with this change as I have with the other ones whether I like them or not. DW is still a great game and like all great games, changes must occur. I guess I would just like to feel the possibility that I could actually get a titled car some day, and with the recent changes I feel that a really cool game feature would be close to impossible to achieve. EDIT after reading above posts: If that is the correct way to interpret the system then it doesn't sound as detrimental as I first thought. I will look forward to the challenge of keeping my chassis intact in the hopes of getting a titled car some day.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 26, 2009, 11:28 pm	Latte... i have not worked out what the effect would be in full but when i first read this my instinct was that it needed a sliding scale in each town eg. first 4 cars free next 4 base rate next 4 2xbase next 4 3xbase etc (with the base different for each town) now my apologies for the next bit... it goes all maths....the numbers are examples only. ---------------------------------------- imagining that the current cost (base rate) for an apache parked in BL is $100. this would mean that if you wanted to keep enough cars to do a 20 car apache solo (you mad people) then under the proposed method you would be paying = 20x$100x6 = 12000 under the method outlined above.... (4x0)+(4x100)+(4x200)+(4x300)+(4x400) = 4000 a much lower figure... -------------------------------------------------------- BUT..... you would benefit PROVIDED you kept a relatively small stable.. ........................................................................... if you imagine you had 100 apaches in BL instead.... under the proposed method you would be paying 100x$100x6=$60000 wheras under the way i have shown it above you would be paying.... (4x0)+(4x100)+(4x200)+ etc etc up to (4x2400)= $120000 -------------------------------------------------------- so what it does is not penalise people who want to keep a few vehicles but massively ramp up costs for people who want to keep hundreds of cars. -------------------------------------------------------- this is not a properly worked idea... i can see some holes (im sure you guys will see more) (eg. how does it decide what your first 4 cars are as you are going to want the 4 free ones to be the 4 firetrucks not the 4 alphas) but what it does is penalise massive garages hard whilst giving people the encouragement to keep some people in every town. EDIT- one possible solution to my thing above would be to make it be based on chassis... would need some thinking but if your first buzzer was free... second was base rate.. third was 2x etc....
Twisted Feather Posted Aug 26, 2009, 11:57 pm	Here's an idea (and it may be powered by yeast logic for I have been frequenting a public house), but I think there needs to be a bigger incentive for a gang to spread their wings beyond SS, particularly in line with the new changes. How about the more difficult (i.e down south) towns give a bigger chance of recruiting higher skilled gangers? The skill level of your characters is far more the lifeblood of this game then either the cash in your bank account or the rare guns and chassis in your garage. However good the kit is, without decent people to drive and shoot it's pretty much worthless. Also - getting to a new town (lets take Texan for a recent example) is hard enough, but getting a decent gang there is much harder. So - how about we cut some slack? Raise the 20 cap to 40, 60, even 80. Lets reward the players who make the trip with new characters who would take months to develop if they stay around Safe Somerset. And part 2 of the idea (and I'm really not sure if this would work). Could this be a new and better use for Hero Points? A local hero would surely be more likely to attract the cream of the locals to their gang, so a few successful scouts somewhere new (and difficult) could land you with a brand new 80 large gunner on recruitment day. How's that for an incentive to take the risks and pay the price for heading out of the comfort zone? That's my second 2c worth, so I'm sure I'm now owed a whole 4c from somewhere
Groove Champion Posted Aug 27, 2009, 12:00 am	Twisted Feather said: How about the more difficult (i.e down south) towns give a bigger chance of recruiting higher skilled gangers? This won't work because players will simply camp one ganger in BL or FL, recruit high-skill gangers to train in SS. Travelling from town to town isn't so risky: it's a small price to pay to have a 40 skill ganger right from the start without having to invest time and effort in training.
Gubby Posted Aug 27, 2009, 4:29 am	Instead of trying to nerf SS, why not just limit the number f "parking spaces" there per player. If it's the mst populous town, space is at a premium and should be rationed. Make it 10 cars max or pay exorbitant fees. I also think simply owning ultra rare chassis should give a boost to gang fame.
Serephe Posted Aug 27, 2009, 4:59 am	Have vehicle fame add x% to gang fame -- allowing those who scout exclusively to keep their fame higher for recruiting purposes.
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:36 am	Goat, Regarding your idea on garage fees. Sam said: These figures will be non-linear - so the figure starts spiraling when you have masses of gear So sadly your example is not accurate.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 4:45 pm	sorry???? what figures will be non linear? If sam is proposing non linear stuff (which he obviously is) then the figures in the first post are complete bunkum so we dont know what figures are being referred to... x6 of what? at what point does it become x6? does it go higher than x6? will we suddenly be hit by a x10 if it is goijng to be non linear then it needs an actual framework so people can make a decision about how many cars to keep... all i did was give a very sensible methodology of making it non linear!
*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 5:25 pm	I might keep them linear actually, it's much simpler to code etc. as well as being more predictable for the players.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 27, 2009, 5:36 pm	Since the question of what is 'reasonable' (a baseline figure) has been raised, here's a snip from an old thread dealing with garage fees. It doesn't really address those who want to 'collect' and store chassis- I suppose that is what camps are for. I know if I was a town leader, I would be nervous if a gang stored 60 armed cars in the town limits... Dr Mathias said: Lugal said: I'd support raising storage fees, past a certain point.  That way there would be a financial 'cushion' for newer players, but would either discourage large-scale hording or be a money sink for established players. I dont want to hurt new players at all, so I think having a "reasonable amount" of cars in the garage and a "reasonable amount" of crap in the lockup is fine. Thats why I suggested a rate that goes up in an increasing ramp after the "reasonable amount" (which I know will not be something anyone can agree on). We need a simple guideline for what people actually might NEED in any given town... something like this... 0-4 Pro race cars (varying engine sizes) 0-4 Pro combat cars 0-4 Pro Deathracers 0-10 Wilderness scout cars 0-3 Taxis 0-6 Transports/trader escorts Thats potentially a lot of cars... imagine the space that takes up, and picture Somerset... As for lockups, maybe assign a bulk limit and charge a lot more (increasing exponentially) for going over that limit. I have no clue what reasonable is here but I don't think I NEED to have all the junk in my lockup. EDIT: As for 'reasonable' lockup storage... I try to keep one of each weapon and engine on hand at all times. Ultra common stuff like machine guns I don't bother storing. Rare stuff like v8 and HGG I tend to keep about 5 on hand. If I have that many of a rare I usually pass on them in the shop when offered as hero point items. That seems 'reasonable' to me. However, I'm not a trader... they would need more bulk/storage, right? This might be a great time to discuss 'gang focus' again... instead of combat bonuses/effects gang focus could be applied to logistics and strategic gameplay. For example: Mech Gang: Garage(maintainance) fees halved. Trader Gang: Lockup bulk limits tripled. etc.
*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 5:48 pm	I always liked the idea of gang focus, yep. Gang Focus thread (18 months old, oooer) The idea of making certain types of hardware appear in certain towns is also really nice.
*Longo* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:00 pm	Are your specific lockup fees listed anywhere? I know I can get garage fees via the vehicle tab, but where is the cost listed for the 100 tires, 20 weapons, and 10 engines I have stored? Also, not to sound funny or anything, but if I have a lorry full of weapons will I dodge lockup fees other than the CR of teh car parked in town? Just trying to cut my 1/2 million bill down a bit ya know...
*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:06 pm	Lockup fees are actually charged purely in terms of bulk. And if stuff is inside a vehicle, it is charged by value (as is the rest of that vehicle). So I guess highbulk, lowvalue stuff is cheaper to store in a vehicle while highvalue, lowbulk stuff is cheaper in a lockup.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:44 pm	Sam am i missing something, the new costs for garage fees are stated as being a x6 increase of origianl, i cant seem to find any details that this is also incremental with the amount of vehicles owned per town, but the garage fees now, are reflecting higher costs for a larger stored vehicle garage *edit* as pointed out by serephe, i just didnt read the first post properly .. sigh ... any chance of knowing what the bands are say, like if i only have 6 vehicles etc etc
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:38 pm	Also the garage charge, is it set for where the vehicle is or from, i know this must be the former, so what about vehicles as in courier vans that may be running from SS to BL so arnt really garaged in BL but more so passing through, still would be charged the BL fee if there at time of charge edit- of course this is all very based on where your main forces are
*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:30 pm	The fees are based on each vehicle alone grog, I decided against doing a sliding scale of any kind. Quote: Also the garage charge, is it set for where the vehicle is or from, i know this must be the former, so what about vehicles as in courier vans that may be running from SS to BL so arnt really garaged in BL but more so passing through, still would be charged the BL fee if there at time of charge Correct. It works both ways though - if the vehicle is on its way from SS to BL when the fee is applied it will be cheaper.
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:24 pm	never mind. hehe
Big Daddy Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:38 pm	It would be interesting to see last/this week's garage fees alongside the ones coming in the near future. Even the total is pretty buried in the Financial gang info. But I'm not sure I understand what I see now - it looks like fees in GW and BL are more than 10x SS? I thought the differential was going to be half that. It's hard to comment on whether the fees are too high or too low in general, that depends on the desired effect. This shouldn't change much for me, except I'll probably move half of my cars outside SS to SS over the next couple of weeks - at $2400 or so per week and little chance of much use for the time being, it doesn't make sense to pay so much for them to wait for a scouting crew in town. I expect it will slow my exploration to scout in other towns. I have dipped my toe in GW scouts, and they were already less profitable than SS for me.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:46 pm	Is anyone else bothered by the fact that it is the value of items, rather than size/bulk, that is the basis for fees? Am I reading that correctly? It is no one's business what is in my lockups... is there a town guard looking at what I am transporting? Funny, when the vehicles I drive back into town are seized trader cars... Are we using actual value, which isn't even calculable, or the out-of-whack rates in the shops?
Big Daddy Posted Aug 28, 2009, 1:12 am	I hadn't noticed that, Doc, but it would be a little surprising. But it could be justified - it's already been mentioned that the fees aren't so much for space to keep your stuff out of the sun, but to lock it up and keep it away from thieves. The more valuable it is, the more you have to pay your own guards to stay loyal too. In that sense, something small and valuable does cost more to store than something bulky but cheap.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 28, 2009, 4:45 am	Big Daddy said: I hadn't noticed that, Doc, but it would be a little surprising. But it could be justified - it's already been mentioned that the fees aren't so much for space to keep your stuff out of the sun, but to lock it up and keep it away from thieves. The more valuable it is, the more you have to pay your own guards to stay loyal too. In that sense, something small and valuable does cost more to store than something bulky but cheap. That's reasonable. I shall acquiesce.
wounded Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:17 am	If the storage fees are based on the value of items, how about the most valuable stuff in our storage - money? What is the money 'made of'? It's not like we have a safe banking system and ATMs to raise funds as we see fit. If you have 50 million dollars, it's going to take some space to store it and is much easier to steal than a bus. I don't necessarily want the game to go this way, but I just want to raise the point into the debate. Keeping track of your millions and protecting them is the obvious money sink, sort of property tax if you like for keeping the money safe. Also, the money we make is now an abstract concept. We sell stuff in Somerset and are instantly able to use the money on the other side of Evan, without the need to ship the money there. I'm not really suggesting penalizing for having money by fees or taxes, nor am I suggesting that the money should be made "physical". However, if the logic of value based fees for other stuff is used for lockup fees, then why not use the same logic for the money?
*sam* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:37 am	Stuff in your lockup isn't charged by value, it's charged by bulk. You must have misread my post, Dr M. It's vehicles that are charged by value - since in this case it's a maintenance fee as well as a security fee.
Solf Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:50 am	I apologize if I missed it somewhere in this thread -- which I admit I haven't read -- but I've scanned Sam's posts in this thread. Could someone please clarify the reasons & goals behind this change? From Sam's posts it appears that the goal is to make money mean more? Are there any other reasons / goals? (and yes, it means I have an opinion that I want to share, but I want to be sure it's relevant before I post it )
*sam* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:57 am	Quote: the goal is to make money mean more That's pretty much it, yes. With money too easy to gather, many game mechanisms break down - trading becomes pointless, town events lack appeal, etc. Also, rampant inflation is bad, especially for new players as it gets harder and harder to break into the market.
FireFly Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:54 pm	Why not just build some kind of, massive parking lot? With minimal... everthing And sometimes raided by pirates
Solf Posted Aug 28, 2009, 2:50 pm	*sam* said: Quote: the goal is to make money mean more That's pretty much it, yes. Ok, then I guess I can express my opinion I'm not really in position to judge how much additional money drain is needed -- that is I do have enough at the moment, but it's not like I'm collecting it at an alarming rate or anything (at least that's how I feel). But if we need additional money drains -- why implement it in such a way that hurts least active players most? Why not implement it so that it hurts people equally -- or maybe most active most (as they are those who presumable acquire the most wealth most quickly)? Instead of increasing costs of lockups / garages, why not increase, for example, costs of fuel and/or ammunition? Or have every vehicle travelling through town gates -- either on a scout or a travel -- pay toll. Basically any number of approaches is possible that would not disproportionally affect people who play less (especially if they play less only temporarily -- they would really hurt themselves if they start selling e.g. combat cars they used to/going to use) like garage fee does. That basically sums up my question / suggestion. I'll put my personal example below for reference. ------------------------------------ As a specific example -- I used to play quite a lot. I started to scout GW and now have about 10 vehicles there -- both combat cars I use and some loot that I'm not willing to sell (57, lorry, this kind of stuff). Now for several reasons I barely play. If money change hits me hard (and it looks like it may -- it might cost me more than 10% of my current cash reserves right now -- depending on wages etc.) -- I'll be faced with a choice of either play more to compensate for money losses or to put account on vacation status. As I'm not likely to dedicate more time to the game at the moment, I'm much more likely to put account on vacation. And if I do, the likelyhood that I'll resub / start playing again is much diminished -- as I won't even able to run a quick event to see if I still like the game without breaking the account's vacation status.
Twisted Feather Posted Aug 28, 2009, 3:21 pm	Solf said: But if we need additional money drains -- why implement it in such a way that hurts least active players most? Why not implement it so that it hurts people equally -- or maybe most active most (as they are those who presumable acquire the most wealth most quickly)? Instead of increasing costs of lockups / garages, why not increase, for example, costs of fuel and/or ammunition? Or have every vehicle travelling through town gates -- either on a scout or a travel -- pay toll. Basically any number of approaches is possible that would not disproportionally affect people who play less (especially if they play less only temporarily -- they would really hurt themselves if they start selling e.g. combat cars they used to/going to use) like garage fee does. I'm not sure a money drain like the one's you mentioned would help at all. Raising prices to affect the incremental cost of doing an event is never going to remove cash from the system until the average event results in a loss to the player (i.e. it costs more to play an event then can be recouped by selling loot). If this happens, what is the incentive to scout (especially for new players)? If there really is an excess of cash in the economy then it will need and 'out of event' mechanic like the one suggested to remove some of it and rebalance the game. However as someone who also likes to take breaks from playing (depending on what else I've got on) it would be good if those weeks not playing didn't actually bankrupt us. Possibly a couple of free (or reduced price) slots per town? When I look at the vehicles I actually use and really want to keep where they are then they actually aren't then many of them, so provided I move or sell all my spares then I should be ok regardless (until I need one of the spares - but that's another story!). Having said that I rarely do more then 2 scouts of an evening which helps... </ramble>
Solf Posted Aug 28, 2009, 4:04 pm	Twisted Feather said: I'm not sure a money drain like the one's you mentioned would help at all. Raising prices to affect the incremental cost of doing an event is never going to remove cash from the system until the average event results in a loss to the player You have a point here. However I don't think the current change will help much either. I mean, even if I have to pay 100k per week (currently probably less) -- on a week that I *do* play quite a bit I can make something maybe like 1 mil -- basically just scouting and selling loot. And I'm not a vet. So I imagine this change will do nothing to curb the wealth of those who do play to acquire it. On the other hand when I don't really play and idle around -- I would make 200k or even much less than that -- in which case paying 100k lockup fees is going to hurt a lot. I guess what I'm saying, unless the game is made a global money loss, then people who play *will* accumulate wealth. You can only maybe control how fast. Raising prices on fuel / ammo / adding tolls will tax people who play a lot more, which I think is how it should be -- unlike the current change. Well, actually, if you want to remove money from economy, you, imo, need to have optional, but tempting, huge money sinks. Maybe let people pay exorbitant training prices to increase they training speed by some %. Or let them pay insane courier prices to some NPC gangs to shuttle stuff between points without having to fight through. Or insanely expensive auto-pilots or something that would increase travel speed between towns and would expire in so many miles travelled (call it co-driver or some such). Basically stuff that won't give wealthy people huge advantage, but that will make their life more convenient.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 28, 2009, 4:14 pm	*sam* said: Quote: the goal is to make money mean more That's pretty much it, yes. I'd suggest that the 'gamebreak' is that hardcore players amass wealth quickly, and in two forms- money and assets. Once you get established- and if you play a lot, money and assets increase very rapidly and at the same time. Currently you can have both. In a way it is a close reflection of the global economy now... if you have money, its easy to make money. I'd prefer a more 'tribal' wealth measurement like Native Americans and their horses or Maasai and cattle (replace horses and cattle with cars for our purposes). If you want more cars, you take them or trade for them. Rather than make money mean more, I'd like it to mean less- a lot less in fact. Instead of throwing $$$ into camps, make them more reliant on scrap metal and stone for maintainence. Instead of $$$ to npc workers, pay them in food and fuel and living space and protection. Make $$$ harder to acquire, and give players alternative ways to acquire hardware than simply buying it, rather than come up with painful ways to take away $$$. I'd like to see resource bartering and actual trade. Instead of $$$ meaning more, I think food, fuel, water, scrap, stone, and EP should mean more. In Firelight, I discovered that I was excited to loot reinforced tyres! I didn't care about the money the chassis would bring me at all... that was a great feeling, and I think this game still has the potential- after two years of heavy play- to produce moments of triumph in simplicity. If money was less important (camps used resources rather than $$$. Sponsorships were WON by camps rather than bought for $$$. Players swap items across instead of buying for $$$. Players can store 20 cars in Baldlands at minimal $$$ cost if they donate stone and chassis to the arena there. etc.) wouldn't the game be a much better place?
Jety Posted Aug 28, 2009, 4:25 pm	Quote: Well, actually, if you want to remove money from economy, you, imo, need to have optional, but tempting, huge money sinks. This. Quote: In Firelight, I discovered that I was excited to loot reinforced tyres! I didn't care about the money the chassis would bring me at all... that was a great feeling, and I think this game still has the potential- after two years of heavy play- to produce moments of triumph in simplicity. And this too.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Aug 28, 2009, 4:28 pm	Doc's suggestion is the ONLY one I've read here that TRULY makes the most sense! I don't disagree with the majority of the others' posts but, Doc's makes more points in the positive category IMHO. I would also STILL like to see some way of expanding a camps footprint so we can build more lockup space for goods to be used as barter if this were implemented.
Fealty Lost Posted Aug 28, 2009, 5:24 pm	As I've posted elsewhere...this 'change' in cash/storage seriously hosed my bank account during my...uh...absence during BETA. I come back to find I'm down to almost 100K. Now, I've never been into the collecting/money-making...for me it's all about the combat and helping out those who DO have camps. My playstyle is now a thing of the past unless I 'play the game' like everyone else and make money my main concern...which was NEVER what this game was about for me. I've given away TONS of stuff I could have sold for cash because when I started playing, some very generous players helped me out in a big way several times. Now, being a 'good' guy is penalized even more, because when you ONLY attack pirates, you don't get the big hauls...the lorries/rares and not wanting to own a camp screws me...my 50-car stables are going to go the way of the dinosaur unless i'm on every day making cash to support them outside Somerset...and to think I was thrilled to finally be able to go to Elms' and beat up the pirates there.... Ah well. Penalizing people for having lots of vehicles is NOT the way to go, nor for having large stores of equipment...this is an apocolyptic game...who ISN'T going to hoard? The way to fix it is to make the cities dynamic and able to be modified by players: in other words, WE can add buildings to a town/camp, etc., without having to own it. If you can get together the resources (which, as others have said, should have WAY more sway than cash in this world), then you can build your own base/storage/lock-up which would then be looked over by YOUR gangers...which it should be NOW...since that makes sense...why pay other people to watch your stuff when you have 50+ killers sitting around? focus should be put on developing the game world to make it more interactable (???) with players...not adding new weapons/vehicles/other crap...only people that benefits are the older (longer-playing) or overachieving players...land their boredom is far down on the scale for me rather than the game's playability. sorry guys.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:54 pm	Damon_Angel said: As I've posted elsewhere...this 'change' in cash/storage seriously hosed my bank account during my...uh...absence during BETA.  I come back to find I'm down to almost 100K. er.. its not been implemented???
simonmaxhill Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:07 pm	My two cents, again: I think Solf's point about "expensive, risky enterprises" is great and is a much better money sink than anything else. Instead of money being necessary to "maintain" you would have the option of spending money to grow in in terms of gameplay (higher skilled ganger has immediate functionality in game) as opposed to meta-gameplay (the warm glow of a "one of every rare" garage). If we're looking to limit asset accumulation, we could certainly have a CR cap for each gang in a town/truckstop (like camp) with the option to spend vast sums on "additional garaging." This would allow players to keep a modest garage without forcing them to do a lot of money-grinding to maintain it, but leave room for hoarders to do their thing relatively unimpeded.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:31 pm	Damon_Angel said: As I've posted elsewhere...this 'change' in cash/storage seriously hosed my bank account during my...uh...absence during BETA. Damon_Angel Shattered-n-Bloody Racer Group: Subscribers Posts: 243 Joined: Jan 6, 2009 Ummm..... The BETA phase ended in May of 2007..... No point here but I notice the discrepancy. just-too-observantJD
Groove Champion Posted Aug 28, 2009, 8:10 pm	This isn't a game about transforming the world into a verdant paradise of plenty, it's about dealing with a solar disaster reaming us all with a sharp stick. I love the idea of forcing us to keep only what we need. What is a game without tough decisions?! If we can all sit on a stable of 50 cars, we're not dealing with an apocalyptic world anymore: we're basking in a comfortable existence. So many players (INCLUDING ME) having millions of dollars makes money meaningless and as Sam pointed it, it makes many aspects of the game redundant or useless (player market, bartering). We're all screaming and wailing about consequences that are unforseen. This constant bitching about change is to be expected but I think it would be very very very very (did I mention very?) wrong to pay any attention to it! Sam, these changes are exactly what Evan needs: you were on the ball from the very start. Don't give up now!!!
Serephe Posted Aug 28, 2009, 9:17 pm	Groove Champion said: This isn't a game about transforming the world into a verdant paradise of plenty, it's about dealing with a solar disaster reaming us all with a sharp stick. I love the idea of forcing us to keep only what we need. What is a game without tough decisions?! If we can all sit on a stable of 50 cars, we're not dealing with an apocalyptic world anymore: we're basking in a comfortable existence. So many players (INCLUDING ME) having millions of dollars makes money meaningless and as Sam pointed it, it makes many aspects of the game redundant or useless (player market, bartering). We're all screaming and wailing about consequences that are unforseen. This constant bitching about change is to be expected but I think it would be very very very very (did I mention very?) wrong to pay any attention to it! Sam, these changes are exactly what Evan needs: you were on the ball from the very start. Don't give up now!!! Quoting for truth.
Solf Posted Aug 28, 2009, 10:59 pm	Serephe said: Quoting for truth. I just want to say that not everyone plays for the same reasons. I, for example, play DW because I like tactical portion of the game. The 'inventory management' game being implemented right now is not going to do anything but detract from the game for me.
Serephe Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:01 pm	Solf said: Serephe said: Quoting for truth. I just want to say that not everyone plays for the same reasons. I, for example, play DW because I like tactical portion of the game. The 'inventory management' game being implemented right now is not going to do anything but detract from the game for me. DW:Tactical was made for a reason. Still needs some work though.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:59 pm	I'd quote for truth, but the truth seems quite obvious at this point.
4saken Posted Aug 29, 2009, 6:31 am	My 2 cents: There's so much here I'm not going to be able to cover everything, but first off I think the changes are too severe. My gut instinct is always to make these changes incremental. For instance, I think 3% permadamage is too much. I think 2% is about right. I may be right, or I may be wrong. But if the plan is to go from 1 to 3 percent why do it all in one jump? Why not change to 2% when the update happens then intend to jump the rest, say, 30-60 days later. It gives us more time to adapt to the changes and to see any unintended consequences. It also lets people see the changes in play, rather than just as numbers in a theoretical setting. By the same token I think the garage and NPC skill changes are too much of a jump. A 6x jump in one update? Really? Couldn't go with "6x increase is planned... will go to 2x this update, 4x in one month, and the final stage in 2 months unless something shows the changes to be too severe". Aside from my stage increment thing I think the permadamage is a little heavy. Only 3 breaches to 91%, which most vets consider far below usable. I think 2% per is fine, which gives 5 breaches to 90%. I like the idea of it being 1-3% really, with the chance for each weighted by how bad the damage was. Also it is very important to know if worn weapons jam like damaged weapons or are simply less accurate. This will have a strong effect on the resale value of used rare weapons. I don't like the garage changes due to the fact that 1) I think it reduces incentive to leave SS and 2) I think it has too strong of an effect on casual players (those that cannot play as frequently). I think the fees should be scaled so the first few cars are cheaper and it goes up from there. Harder to code, as Sam said, and much harder to make it easy for people to estimate gargage cost, but still necessary. Also if garage fees are going to start becoming much more important they need to be more visible on the website than hidden in a button you only find if you scroll down. Perhaps on the vehicles tab the first line under the header should not be a car but the combined garage fee for that town (or everything if you have "show all"). Thus the fee would always be displayed, and you could hit the button if you want a per-car display. I am also big on the non-money ideas Doc suggested and the other money sink ideas such as increased skill caps for new hires in other towns. You could make the skill boost non-munchy by having it based on the town (20 for SS, for instance) and also on how many gangers you have in the town averaged back over say the past month or so. So parking one guy in the town will not gain you much. Another idea: Gangs build their own lockups. The town lockup will have the ever-scaling high rates as an incentive but "collectors" can spend X amount of $ to build, say, a 10 car lockup that may have little or no fees once built. At any rate if you're going to make it cost even more to run outside of SS we need more incentive to leave SS again...
Fealty Lost Posted Aug 31, 2009, 5:50 pm	JD: I was referring to being gone during MY beta for a post-apocalyptic game...which is NOT Dark-Wind. If the fees had not been implemented during that time: then the lock-up fees are TOO HIGH...I'm down a couple hundred thousand...argh. Then I'm glad the change wasn't made or I'd be totally broke...if that's going to happen, I'd rather it happened with me having fun...not just sitting around.
*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:05 pm	4saken said: I don't like the garage changes due to the fact that 1) I think it reduces incentive to leave SS and 2) I think it has too strong of an effect on casual players (those that cannot play as frequently). Check out the Important Announcements thread on this topic: we are 1) reducing the difference between SS and the other towns, and 2) replacing most of the garage fee increase with a gates fee. These specifically deal with your main two concerns (which I think are probably the two most valid concerns that have been raised).
*Ayjona* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 10:04 pm	So much for furthering the hardcore nature of Darkwind... Ah, well, I suppose it might be necessary. But I really liked the initial suggestion from Sam and the RC. By the way, Sam, it seem my weekly fees are actually LOWER than before, after you reverted the change. Is this intentional?
*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 11:31 pm	Quote: it seem my weekly fees are actually LOWER than before, after you reverted the change. Is this intentional? You mean the total garage fees as listed on your vehicles page? No, they should be a little higher than they were a week ago. If you're referring to the amount as listed in your Economy section, then that's unchanged as I haven't made the new fees live yet.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 2, 2009, 4:22 am	Let me start by saying the community of DW is awesome. Even with it's differences, you can read in the posts the passion and the desire for positive changes that posters feel are in the best interests for everyone and the game in general. The diversity of players that we have has produced some great ideas in the forums and I look forward to their implementation. My feeling about DW mirrors what some others have mentioned about the overall game concept and I think all of the changes that are upcoming should try and enhance what that vision is in the majority of the minds, especially Sam's. DW is a place where people are trying to make their way in a tough world with unique challenges to succeed. Some people (players) play for the arena's. Racing, combats and deathraces are their favorite part of the game. Others like scouting and fighting for loot in the wasteland. Still others are in it for the transporting of goods themselves or escorting traders for money and buying and selling commodities from one town to another either to players or NPCs. Some people like the gang or camp management aspect and still others do a little of each because it's all good. My ideas about the game run towards overall concepts more than anything and if they have merit, then by all means consider them and their implementation. I consider DW to be much like it's orginal inspiration and the embodiment of a table-top campaign I run with friends on Saturday nights at my house. An RPG enhanced Car Wars game in a post-apoc world much like The Road Warrior lived and fought in. Now, considering this concept I feel that the bulk goods in the game need to have more relevance as some have suggested. The idea and current use of Lockup fees when considering the world of DW don't make much sense to me either. Can you imagine the people in charge of the place from wherever the gang of the Humongous came from originally before he found out about the refinery actually had the balls to ask that guy for money to store his cars there? Please, imagine this scene: He'd pull out that .44 mag of his and put one between the first guy's eyes and that would have been the end of that discussion. If his home base would have been the town of SS, then I'm guessing as long as he stayed there and you were in good with the gang, SS would be a pretty safe place. He's hardly need any help with security though. If he held more power than the owners/bosses of the town than he would make sure that fuel was coming in for his cars and food and water were coming in for his people and stone/car parts/EPs etc. would be coming in to ensure the buildings were he stored his stuff were intact and that there were plenty of parts for equipment and vehicle repairs. His gang was huge and nearly every two people had a vehicle and everyone had guns of some type. Most DW gangs that I know of have at least 40 people. I don't think it's unreasonable with the endless supply of pirate gangs, traders and bounty hunters that we encounter in the wasteland to loot enough cars to build up a garage to at least supply a car for every gang member and more if you got the time or the money. Implementing a more relevant bulk goods concept would mean that all of the bulk goods commodities that a gang used would be provided by the gang itself or it would pay the going local rate of those commodities from the city where it was based. You run out of water for your gang, you start paying the local rate no matter what it is in that city. This goes for fuel, food, water, CPs, EPs etc. Paying much more for these things would be a great money sink with bigger gangs paying more and the best part is that it's OPTIONAL. If you don't want to pay, then ship the stuff in yourself. Let's not forget that your best gang members are going to require a little better than the standard fare of food and water just like they require more pay. Maybe high level gangers want steak and beer instead of bread and water and there's another place for money. Not so much that it's going to break anyone, but every little bit goes towards fixing the DW economy as it is now. And as for paying lockup fees for the security of your stuff in a town, are we crazy? Are you telling me my 50 hardened gang of baddass wasteland warriors is gonna turn over the protection of our stuff to a bunch of town pansy-asses? You remember the movie High Plains drifter? As long as my people don't rape and pillage the town on a regular basis, the people of SS would be happy I was there because they know if someone comes calling on the town, me and my gang are gonna be there to defend the place, just like all of you would if you were based out of that town, too. Paying for protection of my stuff is ridiculous with 50 armed gangers. And with nothing to do in between scouts and transports, their lazy butts are going to be building and repairing structures that house my stuff and the mechs are gonna work on our cars. This is where stone & scrap metal commodity goes. You got lots of cars, you need bigger buildings and more people to take care of them and consequently more stone/CPs/Scrap to use for the building and repair of structures as well as vehicles and equipment. It's like having a non-manufacturing camp in "your" section of town. If cars take damage being out in the open, buildings would degrade as well. And here's what you do about the cars: Instead of using the local mechanic whose prices are about to triple, every mech in your gang in a given town is now the repair shop for your gang. Call it your "Chop Shop" and it repairs your cars, engines and weapons and BREAKS DOWN loot cars and equipment so you have the CPs, EPs and Scrap to do the repairs. If your MR isn't high enough, you can't break down a car and you can't fix a car and the rarer a chassis, engine or weapon it is the higher the MR to break it down and the more scrap/car parts/EPs it takes to fix. If you are breaking down every third or every other car to keep your gang in bulk goods for buildings and vehicles, then you aren't making much even in a successful scout. Come home with no cars and you might not have the parts to fix the buildings or your cars and you are stuck with spending big dollars for all of that IF you have it. How's that for a more realistic post-apoc money sink? If the Humongous didn't run the town, then I'm sure the town council or whomever was in charge where he was based would ensure that the people who lived in the town were taken care of so that the town wouldn't die and gangs would have materials to still take care of business. People will always organize for the greater good of the group and do what they need to do to see that the group is provided for and that means taking care of the bulk goods that a town that size would need. Every town should have inexpensive, moderate and expensive commodities due to rarity. This opens up a whole new type of commerce for some people who dislike taking mail back and forth between towns for a pittance. They transport up 2000 bulk of food twice a week and sell to 5 different gangs at a tidy profit along with providing for their own needs. Forget buying bulk goods from towns unless you are in the seat of the source like Texan for fuel. I can see gang consortiums working together to keep their costs down with the gangs in the places where food comes from bring that to the gangs where the fuel is and taking it back with them. And here's the potential for barter as well, I got 50 extra cans of fuel I will trade them for 100 of your food since they are the same bulk, with adjustments for major differences in purchase price figured in of course. The gate fees is a very reasonable and easy way of providing revenue for the cities and makes sense even in a post-apoc world and serves it's purpose of taking more money out of the system and making it tougher to bank millions. It's almost like protection money for everyone that is allowed in to the town. Now if you've gotten this far, thanks for your attention. I realize there isn't much hard detail in this post. I am not a detail person, I am an idea person. However, there are plenty of you that could work out the details of a system like this so that it works for pretty much everyone from newbs to vets and works to accomplish what Sam and others would like to see about rare items, gang incomes and stockpiles etc. As gangs get more stuff and bigger buildings to house it, you are talking about a non-linear increase in operating costs and that will go a long way to limiting the size of the stockpiles that people think are out of hand at this point. Nuff' said.
*viKKing* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 8:14 am	Crazy AL said: Now if you've gotten this far, thanks for your attention. It was a nice reading and an interesting approach. To be considered IMHO.
*Tinker* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 9:27 am	viKKing said: Crazy AL said: Now if you've gotten this far, thanks for your attention. It was a nice reading and an interesting approach. To be considered IMHO. Yup read and reread your whole post, it's a really well explained and sensible, I would love to see the whole of evans going in that direction, if not all then just implemented in SV to test that theory out
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 9:39 am	Crazy AL said: interesting stuff Nice ideas, for sure. The basic concepts are clear and well implementable. I'll think about this..
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 10:36 am	See announcement in Patch Notes (scripts v.260) - these changes are now live. I'm seriously considering AL's ideas though (and they combine nicely with other ideas for bulk goods and trade that have been percolating) - so we may well see garage fees and lockup fees reduced again fairly soon, to be replaced with more dynamic requirements for bulk goods.
*Tinker* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 10:37 am	*sam* said: Crazy AL said: interesting stuff Nice ideas, for sure. The basic concepts are clear and well implementable. I'll think about this.. Lol just saw that there is no commodities in SV do we need to bring food and water to our gangsters?
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 10:39 am	Quote: Lol just saw that there is no commodities in SV do we need to bring food and water to our gangsters? Not yet, but that's part of the proposal yes.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:53 am	Al what an excellent post, thanks for taking the time to write it up, excellent points
*Ayjona* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 1:10 pm	*sam* said: You mean the total garage fees as listed on your vehicles page? No, they should be a little higher than they were a week ago. Perhaps I'm just confused. But my weekly totals used to be around 15000, and now they are down to 10K. I know I lost one or two character with reasonably high wages, but 5000... Anyways, Sam, with all these changes to the economy, think there's a chance of adding a "total weekly costs" figure somewhere (either in the weekly financial report, or, preferably, just below the "Money" entry on our gang page), that lists all automatically recurring costs (wages, lockup and garage fees, training fees, food & water for character, hospital fee, etc)? Of course, this can easily be deduced by looking at the financial report, but it is such an important calculation that I think it deserves its own entry. Or is left out on purpose, micro-managing, hardcore-style?
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 2:26 pm	Quote: Perhaps I'm just confused. But my weekly totals used to be around 15000, and now they are down to 10K. I know I lost one or two character with reasonably high wages, but 5000... Since you mention wages, I assume you are talking about the weekly total in your "weekly financial report". This financial report does not include any of the changes we have been discussing, since they have only today been made active and will come into effect for the first time tonight during the weekly update.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 2, 2009, 3:57 pm	Thanks for the positive feedback. Most of the individual points really aren't my ideas, just a consolidation of a lot of suggestions that I put together in my head and hoped to put down concisely. The more detailed financial page was something I was thinking about as well, perhaps breaking out the difference between race winnings and transport payments and if the suggestions get implemented, you would have other categories to consider with the chop shop activities, and food/water costs broken down by ganger category. Newb level gangers got 1 unit of food and water a week, mid-level gangers get 2, and high level gangers would get 3 for example. There are some other fees to possibly include in the "chop shop". Fees that are paid to the town per car break down and equipment repairing to consider power from the town energy plant. This system could be worked out for local medical issues as well. The First Aid skill seems like such an afterthought skill right now, consider this: Any injured gangers would go to your EMT gangers first unless they had severe injuries and so as long as you had some injured gangers in long term care with your FA people, you would get some FA town training for them similar to camp mechanic training. They might even be able to help gangers kick LIGHT addictions at double or triple the time that the Elms hospital would. One of your town buildings could be a triage tent. Once your FA guy reached 100 (doctor?) and later 200(surgeon?), he or she could treat more severe injuries. Again, the town hospital would be significantly more expensive, the treatment would be much faster and the hospital would be the only place where people with spinal injuries or comas would be able to make progress towards recovery and Elms would still be the drug rehab clinic.
*Ayjona* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 3:59 pm	*sam* said: Since you mention wages, I assume you are talking about the weekly total in your "weekly financial report". This financial report does not include any of the changes we have been discussing, since they have only today been made active and will come into effect for the first time tonight during the weekly update. Yep, that I'm aware of No, I compared my weekly total from last week, with my current wages + water and food costs + lockup fees + garage fees, as listed on the gang page, vehicle page, and lockup pulldown, respectively. Have these pages yet to be updated to reflect the new change?
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 4:46 pm	Hmm yes, those pages should be correct. Anyone else seeing their fees *reduced* ?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Sep 2, 2009, 4:59 pm	I have moved so much stuff and sold even more , its very hard to say sam.
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 5:12 pm	I have a database backup from January handy.. from there I can see that Somerset has gone from 1.0 to 1.3 garage/lockup fee multiplier Elms from 0.75 to 1.2 GW from 2.5 to 4.5 BL from 3.0 to 5.0 And I don't recall making any changes in the last few months. So the fees have certainly gone up a little bit. (The new gates fee is the main change).
BWGunner Posted Sep 2, 2009, 5:43 pm	Crazy Al, the Dualist's Pal, cooks up a recipe we can all see the wisdom in. I guess that makes sense, really. ;-) This goes a LONG ways towards making sense of the whole game experience. It may raise the threshold for starting players, but perhaps they arrive with enough stocks to survive a month... which changes the nature of Raw Materials substantially. I think this is the opportunity to change LOOT substantially. If we need food and water in all the towns then I should find it on the cars I take in combat. We take everything they have and spare their lives. Leaving them food and water is optional. Participating in Camp ownership was a rude shock when Philyn and I took up that role. It was, and is, totally different than running a group in a town. I think the philosophies should be the same with services and protection being the only difference. It's tougher, yes, but that's the point, right? The game becomes a fight for owning the sources...and that's as it should be.
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Sep 2, 2009, 7:45 pm	While reading Crazy Al's excellent post it got me thinking about the breaking down of items in town. I believe that the main sticking point on that is that players can exploit it by selling the separate parts (after breaking it down) back to the town for a larger $$ than it would have initially cost. Here is how it was explained to me: You buy or loot a GG and take it to camp. It takes 20 bulk to haul it. You get it there and break it down for EPS, Scrap and CPS. End of story. You can sell it in town for a few thousand, or you can break it down in town. You can turn around and sell the scrap, CPS & EPS for more money than what the GG would have brought, making it a possible exploit. This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. This would work best if we had to supply our own bulk goods in town to maintain structures, etc, (which I LOVE the idea of) but even without that feature added, this could be implemented. If you have bulk goods in town, whether from breaking items down or bringing back from a scout, you take it to a camp, trash them (which seems silly) or donate them for free to town.
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 8:32 pm	Quote: This can be very easily corrected –  No towns will buy our bulk goods Yeah, this is the sort of thing that could make a big difference to the way things work. I think a major problem with the economy is that I tried to make it function properly with player gangs and at the same time with a behind-the-scenes set of traders and customers. Much easier to keep it balanced when the two parts are kept fairly separate.
BWGunner Posted Sep 2, 2009, 8:52 pm	Perhaps, Sam, as we consider the view from this precipice you might ponder throwing money away entirely. I think this would be really difficult to manage, but just imagine of the inherent complexity and fun to be had with a commodity based market. "I'll sell you this here Phoenix for 200 liters of water, and that there machine gun." In Somerset this is quite a bargain, in Sars it's robbery. The profit, then, exists somewhere between. The trade cannot happen without the car, the water, and the machine gun being in the same place. That's a game changer for sure. Managing such a model and balancing it for game play is perhaps harder than what you're currently trying to do, but then it speaks much more to the point of this game. In a word, this game is entirely about survival. As it stands, survival is dictated almost entirely by a bullet, where in a real model of the game it would be more often defined by resources.... Consider carefully the path you choose next, Sam. I snuck a look at the map and it says, "Here there be dragons!"
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 2, 2009, 9:05 pm	*sam* said: I think a major problem with the economy is that I tried to make it function properly with player gangs and at the same time with a behind-the-scenes set of traders and customers. Much easier to keep it balanced when the two parts are kept fairly separate. I like the idea of npc economics, I just don't understand how it works, or if it has any measureable impact. I think what you did when creating npc markets and trade goods was above and beyond what I'd expect for the complexity of the game at the time- it just seems like DW has grown out of the current dislocated system. We have enough players now that the markets can be run by players- if there's a killing to be made in fuel, I suspect some enterprising camp will start trucking it in! It seems like if the commodities trade was largely player driven, or by npcs that are player-escorted (these caravans would have the really good stuff- maybe trader escort caravans are composed of only lorries and boxvans!), it would be much easier to see what towns are getting, and what they need. We would know that we need to be the ones to get it there. The npc economy is a nebulous thing based off how strong the pirates are. Goods are being moved around, but they're not really being generated anywhere or arriving anywhere, and the goods shipped aren't in demand at all. Stone between SS and Elms, when there's 10k units in each town? If no npc or players for that matter arrived in Gateway with a food shipment for months, it wouldn't make a whit of difference. My understanding is that npc shops get weapons and chassis based off of piracy levels, but how does it get there? I like to discuss stuff like this, and I think it would be amazing to have a vibrant, player driven economy that truly impacts what shows up in towns. I hope we can learn some things about the economy through the guinea pig called Shantyville!
Crazy AL Posted Sep 2, 2009, 9:29 pm	Yes, the cost of some bulk items vs. the supply of the same in towns always confused me, too. There's 10K of something and yet it's selling for more than in another place with 10K or less? I still believe there needs to be some NPC market and economy and I think it needs to be less invisible to players and make more logical sense since the player economy is going to be more logical as well.
betterlucky Posted Sep 2, 2009, 10:41 pm	Just some random thoughts... I'd keep it simple to start with. Have each town have one major bulk product and one major bulk demand with the other items essentially fluctuating depending on distance from the main producer. I'd also suggest separating things like water/stone/mail from items that can be "made" by players like car parts and electronics as there is probably too much potential for unbalancing things. Have the player items operate in a market akin to the current weapons/vehicle one. In order to phase in the affect of players on the market carefully, I'd simply make the NPC market that much bigger than the player one. Have the current trader escorts have an impact, but a relatively minor one (including an effect if they are simply not being taken up) as they only represent a fraction of the total trade (assuming npc gangs are escorting the others). Likewise player purchases of commodities (I'm not including weapons/vehicles etc. as the current system seems to work well) if we're going to start having to supply our gangs with stuff to keep them happy. To keep it interesting though, getting hold of extras like drugs or special foods demanded by gang members will be harder. Those luxury items will be the first to feel any impact of a trade slow down (or recovery). Whether you want to represent that by setting variable wages (depending on market condition) or actually require the player to buy those perks in advance of payday or face an activity penalty (possibly along with the risk of a disappointed gang member leaving) is up to Sam, there are good arguments for doing it either way. So if a player truely wants to alter the market, they're going to need to setup some pretty damn big lorry squads of their own. Or mercilessly hunt down umpty-many trader gangs. Of course, if someone really wants to specialise in that there should be the opportunity to make a real killing... but the npcs should react of course. Players known to sell large quantities are going to start getting noticed by more (and larger) pirate gangs and those npc traders who suffer losses are going to start employing better escorts. Assuming that all works, then think about how to include the weapons/vehicle aspect so that it doesn't get totally screwed or at least not too often.
betterlucky Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:00 pm	Oh, meant to add something about gate fees. A town under siege will want to encourage traders to try to break though and for gangs to come and defend. So have them decrease a bit when a town has high pirate activity and increase when it's low. This should have the additional effect of encouraging players to spread out a bit too.
Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:16 pm	Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason.
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:24 pm	Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down?
*sam* Posted Sep 2, 2009, 11:55 pm	Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it.
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:04 am	*sam* said: Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Who are you and what have you done with *sam* ?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:18 am	Dr Mathias said: *sam* said: Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Who are you and what have you done with *sam* ? This is Sam II ' The Revenge Of The Developer '
*Longo* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:21 am	Family Reunion at Sam's house and Flaming logged in. Unfortunately Sam had "Save all passwords" checked, hehe
Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 3, 2009, 12:39 am	*sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:24 am	Actually, I don't see a reason why the town won't buy and sell bulk goods like they do now. Regarding as to whether a player WOULD sell to town is another thing. I feel that the town is going to be producing all of those things on it's own and the worth of the bulk goods a player collects for his own gang should be much more than the town should give for them. And purchasing them from a town is going to be extremely expensive. Essentially, the value of bulk goods should go way up in value especially when weighed against the dollar. Only a fool or someone with WAY to much of one type of bulk good should ever be thinking that a great way to make money is to sell their bulk goods back to town. And truthfully even with a extra lorry full of a bulk good, selling to a PLAYER should who would WANT to pay much more for that bulk good than the town would ever pay should be the norm.
Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:29 am	Sorry to be the odd man out here, but frankly I think you guys are playing with fire, when some casual players find out their characters starved to death a week or two after this change.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 3, 2009, 2:29 am	A small newb gang's requirements should be very manageable. All they will need at first is food and water of which I think they should get a starting stock of each that should hold them for a RL month as long as they don't recruit a whole bunch of gangers immediately. They won't have any cars needing repairs using rentals all the time so the starting cash they get should hold them easily. Here's another reason to encourage them to scout with other people FIRST. Some of the loot they might get will be CPs or scrap or EPs all that can go towards getting their buildings started and maintained. And those first loot cars should be broken down for parts instead of repaired in my opinion anyway. Takes more vehicles out of the market and adds to the money sink in the form of sinking assets instead of cash.
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:05 am	Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though.
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:06 am	The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look.
*jimmylogan* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:11 am	In response to Al's last post... I think it's wise to point out that not everyone scouts. Yes, it's my main thing in game, but that's not ALL. People that race/DR/combat would only need food/water unless they're doing PRO events.
BWGunner Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:14 am	The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:14 am	Good point, Jimmy. However, I would think that racers would need less cars, less people etc. and consequently their bulk goods requirements would be less and they can still purchase them from town or more ideally from another player.
Marrkos Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:21 am	Hopefully I'm misunderstanding or missed something, but is the 'each gang has its own buildings (in each town?) that need to be constructed and maintained' actually being considered for implementation? So, the idea is to inflict upon everybody the drudgery of camp ownership/management? Not really looking forward to that.
*Lugal* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:26 am	BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along.
Serephe Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:27 am	*Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean?
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:31 am	Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec!
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:58 am	The Paranoid Tourist said: Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec! If you look at the quote nest as if from 'above' and as if it were 3-D, it looks like spanky's gigantic stone pyramid
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:03 am	Dr Mathias said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec! If you look at the quote nest as if from 'above' and as if it were 3-D, it looks like spanky's gigantic stone pyramid Dummit. I screwed it up. "Speck" I meant. Speck! It wouldn't make sense for it to be a specialism, specialization, or specification!
*Tinker* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:03 am	The Paranoid Tourist said: Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec! This totem pole is strangely beautiful isn't it?
Serephe Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:05 am	*Tinker* said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec! This totem pole is strangely beautiful isn't it? It is hypnotic.
Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:33 am	Serephe said: *Tinker* said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec! This totem pole is strangely beautiful isn't it? It is hypnotic. This is the perfect ending to a 13 page topic.
Serephe Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:37 am	Joel Autobaun said: Serephe said: *Tinker* said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Serephe said: *Lugal* said: BWGunner said: The Paranoid Tourist said: The Paranoid Tourist said: Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Joel Autobaun said: Marc5iver said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Ummm huh/what?? I like selling bulk goods I make at camp, most of my members are only visiting my camp for this reason. The reason we are not able to break down items in town is that the bulk goods received (CP, EP and scrap) can then be sold to the NPC market for more money that the item that was broken down was worth. Are you talking about the bulk goods you "make" from breaking items down? Joel, I think you're missing part of this. No, the NPC towns won't but them from you, but neither will they sell them. And players will potentially need them directly to kepp their gang going; so you'll sell them into the player marketplace instead of to the NPC shop. Aside - OMG I just discovered the 'quote' button in the forums! I was just admiring how well Marc5iver had nested all those 'said' boxes.. and then I saw it. Well I don't think players will pay sars prices...oh well. Oh, man. I just found that too, Sam. And to think, all of this time I've been doing the same manually. It didn't take me 8,354 posts and a few degrees in computer science to figure it out, though. Now I'm just interested in how deep and 3d-ish we can make this look. And so it was, God was just one of them. The illusion broken, they all suddenly realized they didn't own these cars, their gangs weren't real people who didn't need to eat. In the end Joel questioned whether or not this entire game...this whole universe...had been created just to test him...the only real one of the lot. Looking back he knew he had failed...for only he had believed it anyway. At that moment Joel himself ceased to exist, disappearing with a little pfffft sound and a curl of smoke.  I just wanted to play along. What do ya mean? I appreciate it, guys! Soon Marc5iver's post will be but a spec! This totem pole is strangely beautiful isn't it? It is hypnotic. This is the perfect ending to a 13 page topic. Better type of spam than all the arguments.
BWGunner Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:57 am	Ok, can we stop the train? Not the quoting, I think that's hilarious, but before, as Joel suggested, we play with fire, perhaps we need to collectively take two steps back. I've read this whole thread a few times (really, I have), and I can't help but still think we're taking the approach of taxing the whole populace to address the issues of the corpulent rich. I looked at all the fees tonight and just shook my head. Taxes taxes taxes. This is the #### our characters would kill over. It's regressive taxes on essentials, and it's just taken 15-20% of my profit margin across the board. Is the real issue, perhaps, that the really good items are tied to hero points and nobody but the rich can win them and nobody but the rich can find them on scouts because they are the ones who have the hardware to get them? I mean, I can't tell you the last time I saw a Big Pick Up on the regular market...and with the new tax codes in effect I have little hope that I'll save enough to afford another Buzzer again...let alone the Mortar, Heavy Car Rifle, Laser, Tank Gun, Bus, Firetruck, etc that I've never touched and only seen a few times. I mean, really, a bus goes for $250,000 on the open market when you can theoretically build one for $80,000? Lesse...who can buy it, who can sell it and reap the rewards? The same dudes who can afford it. The threshold is too high. What I'm saying is, why tax everyone when it's a matter of exclusivity, not wealth, that's the real issue? That's actually the issue for me. As a casual player I can only get the droppings of the rich, the regular markets and shops have nothing for me. I like the commodity approach, but question cutting people off from what would be town-moderated essentials of basic survival. I should be able to buy food, at a much higher rate in some towns, from the town. Scrap and Parts, I'm thinking anyone can get those. But someone buying all the water in Sars as a market takeover...and I have to import it from Somerset? Are you nuts? The taxes alone from town to town (now that Badlands has a $1500 per car fee, etc) will make this a VERY non-fun element. Lastly, the $1500 per car gate fee in Badlands has effectively created two groups in my Gang. A Sars/Texan one and a Somerset one. I have a strong suspicion that never the twain shall meet again. I now return you to the previously scheduled programming, "Hall of Mirrors"
Serephe Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:09 am	The gate fee doesn't really address any of the problems that it was designed to -- all it does is reduce profits very slightly. And make travel for the sake of travel less viable.
Groove Champion Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:54 am	BW, you may be on to something, but I can't agree with penalizing exclusivity. As a casual player I've felt the frustration you describe, but the exclusive items you and I so fervently desire are owned by the few players who invest a sufficient amount of play into the game to earn them. Sure the profit margins on a camp-produced bus seem outrageous, but just maintaining said camp requires the owner dedicate a huge chunk of weekly time to keep it functional. As frustrating as the notion might be, the exclusive items are deserved by the few who own them. Now I'd love to have some kind of draconian measure implemented that would force these items into the casual players hand, but if I try to see it through the eyes of a hardcore DW player, it seems flatly unfair.
ElectricNomad Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:56 am	Also being one of the casual players I found the appearance of taxes very annoying. Like BW said it cuts back on profits. I have also been spending my time training gunners and ballistic dudes by just going out in a car, letting loose a few mags, then going back without any loot and only minor damages. This is a thing of the past, or rather, a thing of luxury to me now. I can't afford it anymore. Travels between cities have to be courier missions. No more training scouts and/or transportation of gear between cities. Yes it's only a certain percentage of my income. I doubt I will go broke over this. But with added garage fees and less income from loot this means me saving up to buy a buzzer will take just that much longer. And fluff-wise: why would any gang put up with this ?? The gangs would retreat to camps, trade between camps, scout from camps and trade loot in camps. The towns would wither and die. Suggestions then.. Tax loot cars. Don't tax courier missions, player transportations, travels and solo training scouts. And last.. do the pirates pay the same taxes when going into towns ?
*Ninesticks* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 8:08 am	Marc said: This can be very easily corrected – No towns will buy our bulk goods. Sadly that is not the case, the issue arises from the much higher price paid for EPs being bought by players and not the town.
Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 3, 2009, 8:30 am	Crazy AL said: A small newb gang's requirements should be very manageable. All they will need at first is food and water of which I think they should get a starting stock of each that should hold them for a RL month as long as they don't recruit a whole bunch of gangers immediately. They won't have any cars needing repairs using rentals all the time so the starting cash they get should hold them easily. Here's another reason to encourage them to scout with other people FIRST. Some of the loot they might get will be CPs or scrap or EPs all that can go towards getting their buildings started and maintained. And those first loot cars should be broken down for parts instead of repaired in my opinion anyway. Takes more vehicles out of the market and adds to the money sink in the form of sinking assets instead of cash. I'm going to go back and respond to this, since the topic is still going. I could probably feed all PC Gangs each month with just one Lorry load(of course it would be a chore to get it all over Evan).  Even inactive ones. A lot of camp owners can make food and water, undercutting each other, etc.  Yes it could be "affordable" for players, but it would be a TIME SINK on top of a money sink.  I frankly wouldn't bother checking market prices and people are not going to pay enough for the Time, I know that right now, in all honesty.  Trust me I know about this stuff, I have barely commented on your other GOOD ideas, I don't know a heck of a lot about how a lot of these ideas would pan out.  I am not hauling food all over the place and making sure I am selling for lessthancaps or some bull####.  It's not worth my time.  It might be worth some min maxers time, but only if they make enough money.  Plus all the buyers have got to waste time trying to get a good deal and not get screwed by buying up hoarders who probably won't even make any food/water/whatever. Evan Wheat Pool or no go (pumpkin pool actually lol).  Seller's price protection and buyers price protection.  Yes it's just my opinion.  I don't know if Sam can code it so that gangs get their "share"(paid for of course) before the extra food/water is dumped on the market.  That would be cool.  Also if there is going to be a shortage...to offer a special bells and whistles WHOOP WHOOOP ALERT onthe town page that it needs food badly and the price is shot way up until the shortage/undersupply is filled.  That let's the hoarders have a little fun too.  Al least no one will really suffer for not paying attention.  Unless they run out of money, like how it is now.
Solf Posted Sep 3, 2009, 9:35 am	Joel Autobaun said: Evan Wheat Pool or no go (pumpkin pool actually lol).  Seller's price protection and buyers price protection.  ... Unless they run out of money, like how it is now. I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe there are people who are tired of tactical game and want to play econ sim. Maybe there are people who *want* econ sim, not the tactical game. But doing a 180 and turning mainly tactical shooter into serious econ sim is doing a great disservice to the people who enjoy current state of things. Let's not bundle two entirely different games together and make them both non-optional (or worse yet tactical shooter part being more optional than econ sim). EDIT: As I understand Shanty is econ sim for those who want it -- I have no problem with that -- just please don't take away the playground of those who want nothing to do with goods hauling to survive.
*sam* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:45 am	Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that?
Serephe Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:56 am	*sam* said: Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? As somebody who makes their money from selling chassis to the shops, and pretty much gives away items to players, I have to say that I have no problem with a drop in the price of loot.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:35 pm	Price drop in looted vehicles seems like a better way to go, and more easily explained as a RP implement, glut of chassis cause drop in prices etc. The gates fee serves a purpose, but restricts the small scout training solo car for new players already struggling with keeping fees low and after all its a tax, who likes taxes . The happy medium for now seems to be the ' loot ' idea, but no doubt somebody will have a view on why that isnt right but hey we are getting somewhere at least.
*Tinker* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:50 pm	BWGunner said: a bus goes for $250,000 on the open market when you can theoretically build one for $80,000? Lesse...who can buy it, who can sell it and reap the rewards? The same dudes who can afford it. The threshold is too high. That's the main reason behind all these taxes isn't it? The player market completely bullocks right? So if you want to be draconian, change the way the market works and how things are sold, put caps on it, and change the info screen in the market to have more options besides a password Quote: Quote: *sam* said: Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? As somebody who makes their money from selling chassis to the shops, and pretty much gives away items to players, I have to say that I have no problem with a drop in the price of loot. yea agreed with Serephe, take away the value of loot cars and things really start to hurt, .. like SF never scout there for that reason Gate fees at least have a rational behind them, i don't like them very much but like we said let's wait a couple weeks to really see And yea this must really hurt people that are training their scouts EDIT: omg! what about making the first 100CR free, or muscle cars free? Also for people that rent, i would hope that the fee is included in the rental price Quote: EDIT: As I understand Shanty is econ sim for those who want it -- I have no problem with that -- just please don't take away the playground of those who want nothing to do with goods hauling to survive. SV should be the HARDCORE testbead for these kinda implimentations, agreed but for the rest, Why does one have to replace the other? we could just add the eco/sim stuff on top of what it is now, trader players sell stuff to the towns (food water, medicine) who then dispense it to the tactical players, and make a tidy profit doing it As for shortages... if there's one, how bout it is only 50% as bad as it could be like that everyones contented, think of it as "training wheels" and nobody will starve, unless "food shortages" can have some mild effect on the game just to tell you that there is one, could be fun to know
*jimmylogan* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:53 pm	Solf said: I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe there are people who are tired of tactical game and want to play econ sim. Maybe there are people who *want* econ sim, not the tactical game. But doing a 180 and turning mainly tactical shooter into serious econ sim is doing a great disservice to the people who enjoy current state of things. It's not so much a change to make it a different game as it is an attempt to "fix" the economic model to make it more in line with Sam's vision (tm). Quote: Let's not bundle two entirely different games together and make them both non-optional (or worse yet tactical shooter part being more optional than econ sim). That's the good thing - it's still optional. Don't want to truck in your own food/water/etc.? Don't - you'll just pay for it weekly like you do now. It will be CHEAPER to bring it in yourself, but you're not required to. Actually if you're making plenty of money now just playing the shooter (town events, scouts, etc.) then you won't see a difference in play other than a little higher "weekly fee." Trust me - I'm here because it's Car Wars. I'm not a sims fan either, but I can still play the game my way if I want.
Dundar Posted Sep 3, 2009, 1:59 pm	The way I see it there adding a gate fee would only raise the price of goods and services in a town, if we were talking real life, and not gameplay issues. If I am courier and yesterday you were paying me roughly 1500 to risk my life to run mail between Elmsfield and Somerset and no today I find out it will cost me an additional 500 dollars to do that run, I would raise the price of making that run to 2000 dollars. Of coarse, some people would start to undercut that and you would get a freemarket stabilization at some point, but the reality is that the price to run couriers WOULD go up. w Heck, right now I am only making about 1500 dollars on average running couriers between SS, ELMS, and GW. With this flat 500 fee at SS and ELMS and the crazy fee of 1200 at GW, I don't see myself running to GW anymore. It is just not worth the money and risk to me. Sam, if you want to tax transportation you need to implement some sort of percentage based tax and the amount of goods be transported. Also, since having out gangs to go out and hunt pirates is good for traders and the town, in theory, the should be encouraging it more by offering to cover the tax, or in the case of town, wave the tax or offer a discount. Also, I would think that delivering medicine, mail, and other goods on the part of the town would not be taxed. If you want to apply real-life economic principles that gate fee would in reality be disasterous for couriers and small time traders. You need to figure out some sort of percentage to apply to business transactions. Think of a sales tax, or consumption based tax. I just looked at somthing... I usually run vampires to train my scouts. With no weapons, and 20 unit fuel tank they can carry about 45 bulk. Going from SS to GW, with the new gate fees, 50% of the missions you would take a loss or break even. This doesn't make sense. Those missions would never be done. Add in the fuel costs, and any repairs from combat on the way, and you are looking at probably 65% of the time you are coming out behind. Courier missions should go up in price to accomodate these gate fees, or these missions for smaller bulk sizes would just go away since no one would take them and the customers would just pool their shipments to larger transporters, who would charge more. POSTSCRIPT: Also, exactly again what is the purpose of this gate fee? isn't the idea, money wise, in this game for your gang to get rich? I mean, really what is the problem then? I have been playing pretty regularly, and without getting to heavy into the trading market I can clear 150,000 a week. More if I play more, obviously. What i am saying is that what is so bad about all the "rich" people in the game. This isn't some zero sum economy in that if one person plays more and makes more money they are taking money away from someone else. As people play more, make more, and sell more, we all get richer. If you really want to address the over abundance of cars, weapons, etc... You need to somehow apply the supply and demand problems to the NPC gangs. Therefore if we over hunt an area gangs could be drain which would force players to hunt in other areas or further out, etc... As, For the garge fees, are they based on the "bulk" of the vehicle or the value of the vehicle. I would think that the more space you need the more it should cost. Therefore one guy with 4 buses would pay alot more than one guy with 4 musle cars. Just a thought....
*Longo* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 2:10 pm	*sam* said: Hmm I hadn't really considered the impact of the gates fees on casual travel/scout training etc. I can see how that's an issue. BTW I don't agree that gangs could simply 'refuse' to pay gates fees, the town has a whole pile of costs and facilities that they would be perfectly entitled to charge a gates fee for, and they'd be strong enough to enforce. But that's not really the point, it's a gameplay issue and maybe it's not good... Others have mentioned to me that some alternative form of 'tax' that hits loot directly would be better. Something that would be very easy to do is reduce the price that NPC mech shops pay for the stuff you sell them. Any opinions on that? Simple solution is make the first car free, rather than discuss 12 other ideas?
*sam* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 2:13 pm	Dundar: putting several changes through like this will only add extra complexity and confusion and potential unbalancing. This is why I like the idea of reducing the profit on loot sales directly - it means courier missions, scout training, etc. don't need rebalancing. Quote: since having out gangs to go out and hunt pirates is good for traders and the town, in theory, the should be encouraging it more by offering to cover the tax, or in the case of town, wave the tax or offer a discount. Yes, I was considering reducing the gates fee if you have hero points in the town, or (when we have implemented per-town reputation) anyone with a high local rep. would have no gates fee.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:20 pm	Regarding the micromanagement of a gang's bulk goods like food and water, I would suggest that there be a player option to just put the whole thing on automatic pilot. You can default to paying for food and water just like you do now from towns and just see the result in your financial page. If you want to delve deeper into gang management you can purchase the goods from a trader player who trucked the stuff in from another town. If you want to cut out the middle men, you go get it yourself from the breadbasket of Evan. The gate fees should be regulated a bit more than the blanket: a car enters and you pay the fee. Size or CR of the car, value of the goods and not having to pay if the car was originally in the town are all good suggestions. Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place?
*jimmylogan* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:31 pm	Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble.
Dundar Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:32 pm	OKay... went back and read the WHOLE thread. Whew... Here is what I saw that I really like. Instead of spending money to fix cars we really should have the option of breaking down cars to fix cars. BUT if you want to pay to have the car fixed then it should cost a lot more. IMO this will fix two "problems" in the game. 1. Too much money out there: By getting players to break down cars into components to fix other cars they don't sell the cars and make money off those cars. Also, that means people need to keep more components in their lockup to do repairs, which in turn costs more money. 2. Hoarding, again, people will break down cars to repair cars. The only concern is to make sure you can't easily sell the car in pieces to make more money then selling it as a whole. In real life this seems to be backwards, but it isn't. What you can do is charge a fee to break down a car. This would be adjusted for the size of the car, and the value of the car, in that how much stuff can be salvaged. This will prevent people from making a killing breaking down cars and selling the parts to town. THEN, you charge for the repairs to a car, albeit less, if they have the available parts in the thier lockup. If they don't, then they are charged more for the repair. I know doing something like this would be more work, but to REALLY address the money issue you need to addd mechanisms into the gameplay to drain that money. Just slapping taxes, or fees, into the economy doens't completely solve the problem because some people will just scout more and work harder while other will just get rid of their inventory and play the same or less. That shouldn't the goal. If you want to remove cash, then you need to put into place a way that people will take "stuff" in place of money. The problem isn't vehicle, or item hoarding, the problem is basic inflation. You need to find a way to remove more money from the market without penalizing production. If you remove money by a mechanism that penalizes production then you just get less stuff in the game and you really haven't solved the problem. Basic exmaple: 100 widgets in the game... 100 dollars in the total economy in the game. Each widget equals 1 dollar. If the money supply goes to 200 dollars each widget is 2 dollars. Now if you implement a "tax" or "fee" that its goal is to reduce the money supply but you also reduce production, you don't achieve your goal of lowering prices... The example would be 50 dollars in the game, but now only 50 widgets in the game... you still have 1 dollar per widget. What you need to do is address the economic model in your game that "creates" money from nothing. In real life this is done from banks lending money. In your game, Sam, I think it mostly comes from loot cars, and resources. As I can tell there is no limit on the supply of NPC cars. Therefore going scouting an coming home with a loot car creates "new" money in the game because the car litteraly comes from no where and is sold for money. Also, resources, where do they come from exactly and how is a cost associated to the production of these resources? I don't know enough about the goods market of stone, water, food, etc... to make any argument about this, but when someone mentions there are thousands of units of stone, food, etc in SS, then some sort of dislocation in your market is occuring. Adding some incentive to turn loot cars into something other than money is think is one really viable option. Making the cars worth less, in essence a tax, doesn't remove money becuase some people will just loot more, and in turn make the same money. This can cause the game to turn into a grind for some, which will discourage play and enjoyment, which is obviously not your goal. Hope this helps. BTW, don't know how busy you are or what time you have available for reading but if you are interested in sound classical free market theories and principles to add to your game I suggest you read any book by the late Milton Freedman.
Dundar Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:34 pm	*jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Right but it doesn't make sense profit wise. I gave the example of my 45 bulk transport and 65% of the time you were losing money. People will just stop doing these runs if the payments don't reflect the higher costs.
*jimmylogan* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:36 pm	Dundar - I understand, and I don't disagree with you, just pointing out that "mail" and "medicines" are types of cargo and someone else is paying for it. It's still in flux...
*sam* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 3:46 pm	Quote: As I can tell there is no limit on the supply of NPC cars. Therefore going scouting an coming home with a loot car creates "new" money in the game because the car litteraly comes from no where and is sold for money. Yep, a money source - what I'm trying to do is create money sinks to match it. There are already sinks of course - damage done to your vehicles in combat being one - but if the sources outweigh the sinks you get an unbalanced economy.
*Tinker* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:04 pm	*sam* said: Yep, a money source - what I'm trying to do is create money sinks to match it. There are already sinks of course - damage done to your vehicles in combat being one - but if the sources outweigh the sinks you get an unbalanced economy. This really getting deep Sam why don't you make less NPC cars out in the wild, but increase their AI a bunch and again do something to regulate the player market that's where people are making fist-fulls of bucks too
*sam* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 4:25 pm	Quote: increase their AI a bunch That's the hardest thing to do! Unless you mean increase their gunnery skills...
*Longo* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:11 pm	*sam* said: Quote: increase their AI a bunch That's the hardest thing to do! Unless you mean increase their gunnery skills...  How about give the changes a few weeks....oh I already said that.  Gotta give the extra training the NPCs are getting time to take effect? For instance the 3X in BL.... if they train once a week like us we wont see anything til really Friday, and this will be a big improvement I would think?
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 3, 2009, 5:38 pm	I think there needs to be an income reduction. Some players acquire money too quickly. That has been implemented as gate fees and increased lockup. Both things needed to happen, and make sense, but they are indiscriminate and I think will hurt the casual player disproportionately. I predict gate fees will be lowered in the future once it has been experienced for a while, and that's okay. If you need to increase payout of missions to compensate for increase gate fee, you've solved nothing. I still feel there needs to be a diminishing return on loot. This will target top tier money acquisition and not hurt new and casual players. I don't think it would hurt hardcore players either- they'll still be making more money, just not dramatically more than others. Why not give us another option regarding loot cars? Instead of either selling to the shop and breaking down in camp, how about we have an option to supply the Somerset Deathsport Leagues? Cars they need for track owned events would be very welcome I would think. I propose a 'turn in' or 'deposit' system where you supply cars to the tracks, in exchange for weapons or chassis. This would take money out of the economy, and maybe give long time players a way to acquire chassis they will never otherwise see. Turn in 50 Landrunners- which the arena goes through like candy- and you could earn a Squad Car or McFly. Some might say that sounds like grinding, but we're already fighting the cars anyway! Its not like we have a choice in what we hunt either- its not grinding like in WoW or CoH where you go the the same spot over and over and over to collect spider silk for hours on end. A third option for loot will make us think twice- do I kill that Black Rock or try to save it... once I have it, do I donate it to the arena or break it down for EP? How about this machine gun... hmm looks like the arena is offering a paint gun for 15 of them! My biggest frustration, and one I think Lord Foul mentioned in another post- is that after two years of play and 1000's of events a hardcore player will still never encounter certain weapons and chassis. That just doesn't feel right to me. A ' car deposit' would take money out- set it up so the value of the deposit is higher than what you would buy the reward item (item otherwise unavailable) for and you have a great money sink.
*jimmylogan* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:04 pm	Dr Mathias said: I propose a 'turn in' or 'deposit' system where you supply cars to the tracks, in exchange for weapons or chassis. A third option for loot will make us think twice- do I kill that Black Rock or try to save it... once I have it, do I donate it to the arena or break it down for EP? How about this machine gun... hmm looks like the arena is offering a paint gun for 15 of them! I really like this... Spanky suggested something some time back about "bountied heads" adding up to something, but I think this is better as it addresses the "inflation" as well as the RP aspect. For those that don't want that choice, they are not forced to make it, but it opens up for other game choices...
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:31 pm	Dundar said: *jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Right but it doesn't make sense profit wise. I gave the example of my 45 bulk transport and 65% of the time you were losing money. People will just stop doing these runs if the payments don't reflect the higher costs. Your options are as follows, Dundar: If you are running these missions purely to make money you're going to have to use a vehicle which can transport more goods at a time. This obviously will increase your trade run efficiency but possibly make it a bit harder. If you are running around Evan trying to raise scouting or driving skill, then you should be happy to have any money coming in at all. Sure, you may be doing small-time trade runs at a loss, but you would lose more if you choose not to do them at all. And before you retort by saying that the economy would adjust and those who give the missions would start paying more, don't you think they'd just look at you and say, "No we won't raise our price. If you would rather pay a $1200 gate fee than pay a $1200 gate fee and get a $1000 payment for running these supplies for us, we'll find someone who feels differently." While the gate fees may negate any profits that you were making on some of these runs, they do lessen the pain when they hit.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:23 pm	*jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Damn right! I however think its silly to be paid for it and then give some of the money right back just to bring in goods they hired me to bring in the first place.
*Lugal* Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:25 pm	Dr Mathias said: Why not give us another option regarding loot cars? Instead of either selling to the shop and breaking down in camp, how about we have an option to supply the Somerset Deathsport Leagues? Cars they need for track owned events would be very welcome I would think. I propose a 'turn in' or 'deposit' system where you supply cars to the tracks, in exchange for weapons or chassis. This would take money out of the economy, and maybe give long time players a way to acquire chassis they will never otherwise see. Turn in 50 Landrunners- which the arena goes through like candy- and you could earn a Squad Car or McFly. Mechanically not much different than the collect n of x to get y arrangement, but a) the inclusion of the town/arena system as the rational keeps it in line with the setting and just makes sense, b) offers an alternate method of acquiring uncommon gear (in addition to looting, NPC market/hero points, and player market), and c) is entirely optional - it's not a mechanism required for advancement. With proper balancing on cost v reward, this could be a money sink that people actually enjoy, too! Combine this with the recent proposal about turning in loot for other benefits (aesthetics, tweaks, minor bonuses), and I think we're really onto something.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:33 pm	Dundar said: OKay... went back and read the WHOLE thread. Whew... Here is what I saw that I really like. BTW, don't know how busy you are or what time you have available for reading but if you are interested in sound classical free market theories and principles to add to your game I suggest you read any book by the late Milton Freedman. Good post and the unlimited supply of cars is part of the problem, however its a game mechanic that really can't change. Imagine going out to scout and not encountering any opposition only to come back with a loss of fuel. Not my idea of fun. How many people are still around in Evan after "The Event"? Realistically there are only so many pirates and if you figure player gangs are around 40-60 people then NPC gangs should be the same. Me and Jimmy among others KILLED probably 20+ gangers of the Elmsfield Olympians with my RP bounty that I put out. Why is that gang even still around after the losses they took? Because as realistic as we would like it to be, you need to provide an unlimited supply of guys for the other guys to go against. I for one think the Olympians would have disbanded knowing numerous gangs were gunning for them and they shouldn't even exist as a gang any more. Not to say the might reform after a time, but that's me. Concerning Doc's idea of a way to provide some of the rarer things in the game through something other than finding it in the wastes or purchasing it with millions, I think that's a great idea and certainly something to do with the recovered loot. It would take it out of the system and provide players something they want anyway without any real money transfer.
BWGunner Posted Sep 3, 2009, 10:11 pm	I'm totally with Lugal on this. Take the raw materials (fix it yer danged self) approach and the arena supply approach, put them together and I'm going to be running very lean...and very happy. I also expect to see some lasers and such on the market then...which would be awesome. 15 machine guns for one paint gun!? Sign me up!!! Heck, I'd buy muscle cars off the market to bundle and turn in for a shot at an uber-rare chassis! That's getting rid of bloat AND money. I think even the wealthiest vets would love to trade in gear to get a cool prize, even if only to put it on the market to resell. I personally don't see the harm here as I can save carcasses for a few months to get my prize if I want. Man...that sounds like a GREAT way to bring and keep new players! Honestly, I've always thought Hero points were silly and only worked for hard-core gamers.
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:46 pm	BWGunner said: Heck, I'd buy muscle cars off the market to bundle and turn in for a shot at an uber-rare chassis! That's getting rid of bloat AND money. I think even the wealthiest vets would love to trade in gear to get a cool prize, even if only to put it on the market to resell. There's a few potential hiccups- for example if there was a machine gun trade in, the shop might not ever have machine guns for players to buy because they'd get bought up. On the flip side, when you salvage an mg, it could have some real value, and we'd be happy to loot it! We might think twice about killing the engine of a car the Somerset Deathsport Authority needs for the upcoming leagues. Plus the fluff talks about people making a living by bringing back hardware to supply the deathrace fix that the populace has. Glow or COCO could list an mg for 25K and 24999K respectively, heh heh! Hard to say if reselling would be a problem or not. It just bugs me that in the end game you can't work toward getting some goodies, you just work on acquiring more and more and more money until someone decides to sell their '57. And then they don't sell and say they'd rather trade for another rare you'll never get BWGunner said: Honestly, I've always thought Hero points were silly and only worked for hard-core gamers. Same here. I think hero points has led to a lot of bitterness and rare proliferation. Being practically forced to kill npc gangers has led to the reason they don't skill up. I know the npc training has been tweaked to address that, but still... In the old days we kind of got to know the more skilled npc gangers, you recognized their names 'cause you saw them repeatedly. Now they die like lemmings. I don't even look anymore.
BWGunner Posted Sep 4, 2009, 1:02 am	Right on, Dr. M! I swear, sometimes reading your posts is like talking to myself. So I've decided to let some others do the talking. "Hey, Car Salesman, how much for that McLaren?" Maggie barks. "What, this? Well they only come on the market every 3 years or so, they're pretty rare, and the name's Mezcal" "No kidding, dill-hole, how much?" "Not for sale, only trade." he smiles slowly at this, sensing a deal. "What's that?" "I'll take an Ambulance, a Firetruck and a Police Cruiser for it, plus one laser. They have to be all mint, mind you." "Ouch. Well, how much for that Ambulance you got in back? The damaged one?" "5 Ospreys." "You have 5 Ospreys over there..." "Yep and you can have them for 25 Sunrises and 5 Heavy Machine guns...5 Sunrises and a gun a piece, you see." Longo walks into the room. "Ah, you're here for your McLaren?" the salesman asks. Longo drops five sets of keys on the counter. "The Ambulance." "Ahhh, yes." The Salesman says, "but now you will have to find the rest." Maggie turns to look out the window just as the sirens start. "I believe you'll get that McLaren, Longo. I wonder if it will ever leave Gateway..." OR "Gimme a break here, you're rejecting it cause of rounded nuts?" Gene implored. "Look." "Gene." The Ferrario brothers replied "That's the deal." "One of each motor in Evan." "All perfect." "And we'll sell you this mounted mortar." They smiled. "Forget you two," Gene swore. "I'll go sell these in Somerset and wait for it to hit the market." "Nope." "Can't." The brothers chirped. "You can't put them on any market but here." "And we own this market." "So you can only get them thru us." "Or sell it on this market at a price we set." "Sars is the home of the ballistic weapon, Gene." "We aren't called the FLYING Ferrario Brothers for nothing." Gene sat down, his head spinning from looking between them. "So I have to drag this out to Joel, do I?" "He does have the only mechanic in Evan." "Who can put a Rotary to 100%." They laughed. Gene talked about it on the drive towards Longoland (the town formerly known as Badlands), "I wonder what that maniac Joel is going to want this time. Last time it was a Firetruck..." From the gunner's seat Poor Old Dead Betty Paige replied, "The one Longo promptly stole at the gates?" "Yup." "Right after he stole our Cruiser?" "That's the guy."
*Longo* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 1:03 am	Dr Mathias said: In the old days we kind of got to know the more skilled npc gangers, you recognized their names 'cause you saw them repeatedly. Now they die like lemmings. I don't even look anymore. I do Doc, just about every scout. Once and a while those BH gangs have a 120 lg gunner...I wanna know who he is
BWGunner Posted Sep 4, 2009, 1:13 am	Or how about an article in the Gazette that reads: THIS YEAR ONLY! Click the Windmill on the Somerset map and you'll qualify for the KING of the ROAD! This 5L V8 Big Pick Up comes pre-loaded with an Anti-Tank Gun, a Ram Plate, and two medium machine guns! With room for 3 and a custom paint job, this King is a real LION about to ROAR! and in small print Requires trade-in of full Safari-skinned pick up truck line. Collect all 5!
Lord Foul Posted Sep 4, 2009, 7:51 am	Holy wages batman, I'm now paying more each week for a bunch of my characters than for individual cars. 30k a week just to keep them happy and pay for their drug abuses. lol And now those greedy towns want toll money..grrrr
Dundar Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:28 am	The Paranoid Tourist said: Dundar said: *jimmylogan* said: Crazy AL said: Also, if you are doing cargo transports in an official capacity for towns like bringing mail or medicines, why would the town charge you to enter? Isn't the job your doing essentially at their behest in the first place? You're getting paid for it - you're not doing it to be noble. Right but it doesn't make sense profit wise. I gave the example of my 45 bulk transport and 65% of the time you were losing money. People will just stop doing these runs if the payments don't reflect the higher costs. Your options are as follows, Dundar: If you are running these missions purely to make money you're going to have to use a vehicle which can transport more goods at a time. This obviously will increase your trade run efficiency but possibly make it a bit harder. If you are running around Evan trying to raise scouting or driving skill, then you should be happy to have any money coming in at all. Sure, you may be doing small-time trade runs at a loss, but you would lose more if you choose not to do them at all. And before you retort by saying that the economy would adjust and those who give the missions would start paying more, don't you think they'd just look at you and say, "No we won't raise our price. If you would rather pay a $1200 gate fee than pay a $1200 gate fee and get a $1000 payment for running these supplies for us, we'll find someone who feels differently." While the gate fees may negate any profits that you were making on some of these runs, they do lessen the pain when they hit. Again this doesn't make sense. The mission to carry bulk  items that you would make no profit on would just dissapear. It like you telling FedEx hey, I want you to deliever this package but do it at a loss. If I am running scouting runs and delievering goods and i can make a profit running to Elms and SS but not to GW I will just stop running to GW. That is what would happen and all the shipment that are offered at a loss would dissapear. Its the simple profit motive. If there is no profit there is no motive. Would you go to work tomorrow if you were told you had to pay your emplyer to work for them? I think the answer is obvious.
*viKKing* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:49 am	Dundar said: Again this doesn't make sense. The mission to carry bulk  items that you would make no profit on would just dissapear. It like you telling FedEx hey, I want you to deliever this package but do it at a loss. I'm not sure you really know how it works in the world of parcels. They do run deliveries at loss, because they are tied with large scale contracts. I would mind getting unprofitable misisons to be removed, this is part of trading to be able to turn such missions into profits.  I don't mean there should only be unprofitable missions!
*sam* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:53 am	RE unprofitability: change is highly likely anyway, guys.. whether it's a CR-based gates fee or movement to some other mechanism such as a more direct taxing on loot, I know this needs re-tweaking. But better to wait a while so we know how things look..
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:55 am	Dundar, this game cannot be equated to ANY realistic economic model no matter how many REAL delivery businesses you might like to use as an objective view of your experiences in DarkWind. Keep in mind that the economic model used in DW is one that uses the PLAYERS as a mode of moving trade and goods as the MAIN dynamic force when calculating the goods/courier packages/ moved between towns. The AI element of TRADERS is, to a certain extent, used in the economic calculations. BUT it is NOT the MAIN element when the trade values are generated between the towns.... The Majority of that value is based on goods transported between towns and the distance traveled BY PLAYERS!
Swift Posted Sep 4, 2009, 12:33 pm	Dundar said: POSTSCRIPT: Also, exactly again what is the purpose of this gate fee? isn't the idea, money wise, in this game for your gang to get rich? I mean, really what is the problem then? I have been playing pretty regularly, and without getting to heavy into the trading market I can clear 150,000 a week. More if I play more, obviously. What i am saying is that what is so bad about all the "rich" people in the game. This isn't some zero sum economy in that if one person plays more and makes more money they are taking money away from someone else. As people play more, make more, and sell more, we all get richer. RL Economics 101: By itself, money is worthless. Its only worth is in its perceived value, given by participants of trade. Nowadays, we have paper money which basically is given value by governments which print it and recognize it as their own. Printing too much money leads to inflation: there should be enough to cover all trade operations but not too much, because too much leaves money devalued. You print 1000 times as much money and your basic currency unit (1$ or whatever) is worth 1000 times less. Therefore, being rich is not about having the big number, is about having big % of money available. Game Economics 101: For gameplay purposes, the game prints money. Every time it pays for an event win or a mission or a looted car in shops it creates money out of thin air. It's necessary, for the game's flow and so players would feel progress, but it creates inflation out of thin air, which leads to basic game currency unit devalued and therefore being less and less important as time goes. That's a good thing, right? Money becomes less important, you get a feeling you won (or at least are winning) the game. Not so fast. Too much money in game economy, and its worth plummets. Fees and other money sinks lose their meaning; you can pay all of them. There are no gameplay choices anymore. You pay for anything, and therefore there's no point in having (such small) fees at all. What's more important, player market also gets affected. The more money there's out there, the more money players ask for rares and other things that are not produced at the same speed as money does by the game. Since money making possibilities remain constant for starting players, it means the older the game, the less possible it is for new players to buy anything significant. In conclusion: If tomorrow you lose half your money, you'd be half as rich. If tomorrow EVERYONE loses half their money, you'd be as rich as today, but you'd feel half as rich (human psychology). In a game with player's market, it can't be that everybody is rich. If everyone is rich, noone is rich. And outside of player's market, if everybody is rich, there's no point in having game concept of money. Just give services for free. ---- That said, you (not Dundar, abstract "you") can still make mail missions not only more useful to new players, but also more reallife-like. It never made much sense to me that mail is generated by bulk on demand. It should be generated by the game in the same menu as "taxi missions", preferably daily. Give mail packages low bulk, comfortable mission pay (fuel + gate fee + extra) - viola, useful tool for starting players, but nothing money-making on grand scale. And, of course, in starting towns (SS, Elms, maybe GW) it should be generated daily per player, so there would be always available some mission for any player to do.
*viKKing* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 12:57 pm	Swift said: RL Economics 101: By itself, money is worthless. Its only worth is in its perceived value, given by participants of trade. Nowadays, we have paper money which basically is given value by governments which print it and recognize it as their own. Printing too much money leads to inflation: there should be enough to cover all trade operations but not too much, because too much leaves money devalued. You print 1000 times as much money and your basic currency unit (1$ or whatever) is worth 1000 times less. Therefore, being rich is not about having the big number, is about having big % of money available. Game Economics 101: For gameplay purposes, the game prints money. Every time it pays for an event win or a mission or a looted car in shops it creates money out of thin air. It's necessary for the game to flow and players to feel progress, but it creates inflation out of thin air, which leads to basic game currency unit devalued and therefore being less and less important as time goes. That's a good thing, right? Money becomes less important, you get a feeling you won (or at least are winning) the game. Not so fast. Too much money in game economy, and its worth plummets. Fees and other money sinks lose their meaning; you can pay all of them. There are no gameplay choices anymore. You pay for anything, and therefore there's no point in having (such small) fees at all. What's more important, player market also gets affected. The more money players have, the more money they ask for rares and other things that are not produced at the same speed as money does by the game. Since money making possibilities remain constant for starting players, it means the older the game, the less possible it is for new players to buy anything significant. In conclusion: If tomorrow you lose half your money, you'd be half as rich. If tomorrow EVERYONE loses half their money, you'd be as rich as today, but you'd feel half as rich (human psychology). In a game with player's market, it can't be that everybody is rich. If everyone is rich, noone is rich. And outside of player's market, if everybody is rich, there's no point in having game concept of money. Just give services for free. Great reading!
*sam* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 12:58 pm	Quote: Great reading! Agreed!
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 4, 2009, 3:54 pm	Regarding payment and courier missions- would it be possible to have the negotiator spec play a role in the process? This could offset loss on small missions. For example, if you have a 110 scout (lvl 2 Negotiator) in the vehicle doing the delivery, perhaps you could get a 10% increase on payout. I would do it on payout on delivery, due to a potential exploit- players could use a high scout to get a good rate, then switch them out for a low scout after the cargo is loaded. Maybe not entirely realistic but it would avoid the exploit. I always thought 'negotiator' should fall under leadership rather than (or in addition to) scouting. Scout specs should be travel time reduction, ambush avoidence etc. With all this talk of economics I wonder if some specs could be introduced that deal with haggling over prices.
*viKKing* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 4:58 pm	Dr Mathias said: Regarding payment and courier missions- would it be possible to have the negotiator spec play a role in the process? This could offset loss on small missions. I would rather see it as an opportunity to lower gates fee. In case of success, fee is reduced up to a random number between 2 and 5 x skill level in %: - 2 to 5% for level 1, - 2 to 10% for level 2 - and so on. Quote: I always thought 'negotiator' should fall under leadership rather than (or in addition to) scouting. Scout specs should be travel time reduction, ambush avoidence etc. It seems obvious to me too. Quote: With all this talk of economics I wonder if some specs could be introduced that deal with haggling over prices. Why not?
Dr Mathias Posted Sep 4, 2009, 6:54 pm	viKKing said: Dr Mathias said: Regarding payment and courier missions- would it be possible to have the negotiator spec play a role in the process? I would rather see it as an opportunity to lower gates fee. In case of success, fee is reduced up to a random number between 2 and 5 x skill level in %: - 2 to 5% for level 1, - 2 to 10% for level 2 - and so on. Thanks ViK- That's another way of looking at it, and certainly better with regard to small couriers. Getting a 10% pay increase on  a large mission would be counterproductive to the new changes. Scouts negotiating a lower gate fee makes sense too- they're likely to know the guards etc.
*jimmylogan* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 8:22 pm	Dr Mathias said: Scouts negotiating a lower gate fee makes sense too- they're likely to know the guards etc. And another, RP way of looking at it is... "Hey Joe! Welcome back to SS!" "Hey Bill! How's it hanging?" "You know I have to collect $500 for you to enter..." "But Joe, it's just me this time - I'm not hauling anything." "But I have to collect it - you know the drill." "What if I pay you $400 instead and you just forget to put it down... Think of it as me just buying my friend a few rounds at Dexters..." "Oh no - you did that last time - you'll get me fired..." OR - die roll later - "okay this time, but don't tell anyone..."
*sam* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 8:25 pm	This could work, yeah.. also a good case has been made for CR-based gates fees.
Crazy AL Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:12 pm	Dr Mathias said: Regarding payment and courier missions- would it be possible to have the negotiator spec play a role in the process? This could offset loss on small missions. For example, if you have a 110 scout (lvl 2  Negotiator) in the vehicle doing the delivery, perhaps you could get a 10% increase on payout. I would do it on payout on delivery, due to a potential exploit- players could use a high scout to get a good rate, then switch them out for a low scout after the cargo is loaded. Maybe not entirely realistic but it would avoid the exploit. I always thought 'negotiator' should fall under leadership rather than (or in addition to) scouting. Scout specs should be travel time reduction, ambush avoidence etc. With all this talk of economics I wonder if some specs could be introduced that deal with haggling over prices. That would be the SMOOTH TALKER specialism and is a great idea.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:27 pm	Now you wanted some subtle Psi powers well seems a whole plethora of market applications could be a skill .. cheaper equipment .... gate fee reduction ( these are not the looted vehicles we are looking for....move along ) .... nice and subtle
*sam* Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:34 pm	Quote: Now you wanted some subtle Psi powers well seems a whole plethora of market applications could be a skill .. cheaper equipment .... gate fee reduction ( these are not the looted vehicles we are looking for....move along ) .... nice and subtle Very good young padawan...
betterlucky Posted Sep 4, 2009, 9:57 pm	I still like the idea of gate fees being linked to the amount of pirate activity in the area. The safer the area, the more the town thinks they can charge. As it gets more dangerous, they reduce the fees to attract more traders/gangs to fight off the baddies.
*Ayjona* Posted Sep 6, 2009, 2:45 pm	Just a quick note to you, Sam, to say that regardless of what happened last week, my weekly totals are now a bit higher than before, like they should be. So, how'bout that total weekly cost figure Ayjona, the shameless self-bumper said: Anyways, Sam, with all these changes to the economy, think there's a chance of adding a "total weekly costs" figure somewhere (either in the weekly financial report, or, preferably, just below the "Money" entry on our gang page), that lists all automatically recurring costs (wages, lockup and garage fees, training fees, food & water for character, hospital fee, etc).