Get rid of maxed-out skills!, a really unneeded feature
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:08 pm |
Hey mates!
I think its time to discuss if DW should get rid of the feature to max out skills (the nasty asterix)! On my way over the last year (realtime) to get a scout to go south I maxed out a scout at 121, one at 109 and now my last scout maxed at 77! While that I was able to get one (!) char with a decent level of 160! When I look at the rest of my members I find much more chars that became rather useless cos they maxed out below 100 and wasted some otherwise nice chars. I was thinking for a very long time how much gain this "maxing out"- feature gives to the gameplay and - to be honest - I couldnt find anything! Its rather a very annoying feature that wastes much time and rather adds frustration than enjoyment. I suggest to get rid of the "maxed out skills"-feature! It does not add to the game experience and should be a blast from the past! Support, please! thx |
||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:11 pm |
No thanks.
Not everybody is a superman. |
||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:12 pm |
sure wish ya said this 2 years ago, almost every guy i have built up is maxed in at least 1 skill. but its never gunna happen. | ||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:13 pm |
Think you misunderstood the suggestion... superman can fly, you know...? |
||||
|
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:15 pm |
sorry like it as it is, can always cross train, and everyone has their limits | ||||
|
*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:16 pm |
Disagree as well. It gives each one yet another layer of individuality PLUS it becomes a decision - keep this guy that's maxed at 74 and try for another? He's good like he is... Etc.
JL |
||||
|
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:30 pm |
we have 45 crew - it is part of the mix - reskill and multitask
COCO |
||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:31 pm |
No, I understood. The Superman can fly (note the caps). A superman (no caps) is great at everything, and has no limits. 
If any of the latter exist in this game, I hope they are so exceedingly rare that we never see them, or don't know it because they died before it became apparent. |
||||
|
*Longo* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:38 pm |
Sorry Zoth, I agree with the other doods. | ||||
|
pweelg Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:48 pm |
Would like to see all skills cap differently which i think is something that supposed to being worked on but yeah caps need to stay, else everyone is the same | ||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:02 pm |
Wow, never thought that so much of you guys would stick to it. Well, for me it hurts very much. I always wanted to head south but I wont wait another 6+ months till I have the luck to get a scout a lot of you guys already have. Ive noticed that its not possible to stay on track when you dont regulary play. Really, it hurts me that much that - for the first time since a few years - I think about now renewing my sub. The lack of good scouts for the south and the overall too slow skillgain became too much of a hinderance for my enterainment over the last year. I thought a few more of you could see that. 
|
||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:07 pm |
i see it very clearly but you have to remember this game is basically is made to prevent players from getting to powerful. once they do get to that level then other newbs bitcch then sam nerfs us, i understand how you feel i was upset when in my mind i decided to quit scouting the frustration was greater tthan my desire to play, i love the community so ill stay on forums cant seem to totally quit tho, but i wont be resubbing either. | ||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:11 pm |
Yes, this feature keeps me very good from getting powerful - not like players who play alot so they can swap out unwanted chars. I have to skill them mostly with the weekly training, cos I cant play that much. 1 year realtime for a decent scout while 3 capped before - think about that! What when I lose him through a nasty accident? Another year? Feels like a bitter joke to me! | ||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:17 pm |
Rubbish. |
||||
|
pweelg Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:23 pm |
How do you think removeing the cap wouldn't benefit the regular player even more so.
They would all end up with 500 in everything and people who play less wouldnt be anywhere close. If each character skiil peaked differently then if he peaks low in something youve always got another chance with a different skill |
||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:23 pm |
rubbish hu thats bs imo. then why cant we make rares lol, why we get skill nerfed, aging to kill us off, i could go on and on you may not agree to my statement but ii dont really care its what i believe. | ||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:25 pm |
I heard a rumor that 'new' characters have this capability, but 'old' characters have a single cap level. 'New' was, IIRC, 'created within the last 6 months, and going forward' and that was maybe 3 months ago, although it might have been longer. Characters created before that were considered 'old'. Again, unconfirmed rumor, as I don't think anybody has had a 'new' character max in more than one thing yet. |
||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:32 pm |
Aging was always intended to be present Manufacturing of rares makes them not rare Not sure what exactly 'we get skill nerfed' means, so can't comment on that. But, you are correct, if you believe the game is changed solely to punish you because you've played the longest, or have the most money, or have the best gear or guys, then there isn't anything anyone can say to change that belief. |
||||
|
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:35 pm |
Not sure about that rumour, though I had heard it mentioned somewhere.
Whenever you hit a skill cap that actually allows you to plan that characters development better so I kind of look at it as having a positive side. I have one guy who is maxed 78/79 in several skills - still very very useful. Perhaps you are placing too much importance on the scouting skill for scouting purposes Zoth. High scouts are indeed useful for large travels purely for trucing, but for combat I was quite happily scouting bl with a 1maxed 120 scout. |
||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2009, 10:52 pm |
ok skill nerf takes my leader 7 scouts in elm hunting traders to get 1 point in lg gunner. i bitch about iit sam says well others thought we should nerf skills in ss elm to encourage players to move to tuffer areas, nice thanks guys i never wanted that but since some new guy bitcched sam implemented it after hearing a few others agree, well hunting traders in southern towns sucks so why move, yeah ok i put crew in sars guess what they train slow and its not much harder in sars yeah ya need to learn new tactics but once you learn them its just as easy as scouting in ss lol.
aging we are told we get old and die but we cant raise our abilities so we work up a leader with 26 str only to find out a year or more later that low str ccharacters suck and when str gets to 0 ya die had i know that back then i would never trained her up to be my leader in the first place. were told we are getting a town for pirate players to live at with no bh attacks. sweet we get firelite a place where no traders live bh still attack ya at gates. we get hp there for killing bh but neveer see anyything worth buying well re tires and rifles are pretty sweet tho. |
||||
|
Serephe Posted Jun 8, 2009, 11:01 pm |
If a downie like me can scout Badlands successfully with fresh recruits in apaches armed with HMGs, anyone can. | ||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 8, 2009, 11:19 pm |
You've been here longer than almost everybody else. Ergo, almost everybody else is a 'new guy'. You need a descriptor other than 'some new guy'. 
If every area is 'just as easy as scouting in ss' (and the implication is that this is boring/not fun) then it sounds like you won; you beat the game. Time for a new game and new challenges. |
||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2009, 11:33 pm |
yeah time for a new game is right but community is really cool and i have hope someday it wiill be worth playing again. sorry for being a griper. | ||||
|
Serephe Posted Jun 9, 2009, 12:42 am |
Its "worth playing" now, you're just expecting too much from a game.
|
||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:06 am |
Wrong, the other skills peak next to the first capped skill. At least thats what I expected. Sometimes a few points more, sometimes a few less. |
||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:12 am |
Most players recommend at least a 120-130 scout for GW and a higher one for BL. But when you use small squads (below 5 cars I guess) you get a bonus anyway... so it depends strongly on the type of scout. I had a lot of nasty surprises with my 120 scout at GW... too tough to be enjoyable for me. But thats also mainly cos I cant risk losing chars cos they cost me ages to skill up, as I explained (no powerskilling, no grinding and no time for that). Think my GW experiences showed me where the problem is with a low level scout... |
||||
|
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 7:21 am |
Zoth, I often get the feeling that GW is harder to scout then BL, especially if you scout towards SS or Elms - but that is probably due to local pirate activity being constantly through the roof as not many people scout there (long returns as mentioned, nothing for hero points, lack of player market etc etc).
As always if I am about more than happy to take a run out with you, you bring the scout though ;-) |
||||
|
lordbam Posted Jun 9, 2009, 9:59 am |
That's why your putting bounties on everyone :-) darn probably got a bounty on me because of this post :-( |
||||
|
*goat starer* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 12:27 pm |
i dont want it changes.. but zoth there are so many solutions to what you say. when i moved to Bl i did not have scouts that would cut the mustard. I relied on Nines heavily. My gunners were not really good enough either (again Nines took more than their share of the work). but being in BL means you skill up so much more quickly you rapidly start to catch up. I started there with 40 gunners and a 50 odd scout. Nowadays I have a full BL crew with 180+ gunners and scouts. If you want to scout sometimes down there then just go... join up with us or anyone else.. latte takes people, hallen and Pweelg scout there regularly etc etc. You can scout as often or as seldom as you like and you dont have to have the scouts to do it. For travelling there I use maxed 70 scouts and they are fine. Or send your people with another player. and when down south run an ok scout to Spouthern Pride or Pan or any camp every now and then and you will have a jumbo scout in no time. |
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 2:44 pm |
Currently characters max every skill at the same level. I could change this to be different for each skill, if there's enough interest in it? -- it would be a bit of work, since there are quite a lot of places in my code where skills are increased. | ||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:01 pm |
I would expect there would be a fair bit of interest in making this happen as this isn't the first time it's come up.
The last time, I think it quickly spiraled into complexity with suggestions about how similar skills should/could cap close to each other (a good gunner, will most likely be a good heavy/large gunner, for example), but otherwise each skill should have its own cap. Not sure if you want to go to that level, but almost guaranteed as soon as somebody's 200* LG becomes a 90* Gunner, you'll hear about it.
The only other question I'd have is would it be retroactive, or only apply to characters generated going forward? So current characters will have a single cap level, but new ones will have multiple cap levels. |
||||
|
*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:20 pm |
I think it would be interesting Sam in that each char would be a little more unique, but if it's a lot of coding work I don't know that the result will be worth the effort... JL |
||||
|
Whiskey Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:23 pm |
Hmmm. Personally, I am of the school of thought that if anybody can do something, I can learn to do it as well. It might take me longer because I lack a certain natural talent but with enough practice, I can do anything.
My thought is to remove skill caps completely and replace that with each skill having its own training form. Some characters will skill up faster in some skills than in others but with adequate training (a lifetime worth in some cases) any character can increase any skill without upper limit. |
||||
|
Jety Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:38 pm |
Combining threads - Idea: spend hero points to raise your skill cap. Rationale: extra special attention from the teacher because you da man! | ||||
|
*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:41 pm |
TKW - my only issue with that is we'll see people complaining about, "my scout is STILL at 187 but he's not capped - why won't he train?" when he's really only training at a trickle... say .00000000001 per encounter | ||||
|
Whiskey Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:49 pm |
Then people should learn that they might have to consider changing the focus of their training. Maybe the ganger is a natural born mechanic or medic or something else. I think it should be a case of a gradual slowing in training. Long before reaching the "training at a trickle... say .00000000001 per encounter" stage, an observant gang owner would notice that this guy was taking one or two encounters to gain a point in scouting, then 2 or 3 encounters, then 4 or 5 encounters, then 6 to 10 encounters, etc. |
||||
|
Jester Posted Jun 9, 2009, 4:04 pm |
I'm not sure how complex that would be, but maybe it would help people in Zoth's situation to have the gang leader have a general idea of how good a ganger can be at something. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he misjudges someone... Judgment could change over time...
It would make sense too, the leader could judge by the way the gangmember is learning, if he seems to ba a natural, etc... This way, you could train in scouting your gangmember that has the best potential at scouting. The better your leader, the more accurate he is at judging potential. People with more time could still make their gangers better by crosstraining, etc... It would help people in Zoth's situation because he would avoid most of the time the disappointment of having a gangmember peek too early for his tastes. |
||||
|
Jaguar Posted Jun 10, 2009, 5:20 am |
http://dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=8285
Expansion of th skill cap thingie |
||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 10:21 am |
Sounds fine to me. It wont help my current chars but would prevent the sudden "becomming useless at 77" problem in the future. |
||||
|
wounded Posted Jun 11, 2009, 10:25 am |
"Useless at 77" problem guarantees that the char can hit 77 in other skills as well and at least in SS 77 skill goes a long way. Capping at 77 in one skill and spending a year to train the char only to find out that it was the highest cap for his skills might also raise some complaints
|
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 10:29 am |
This is already the case, maybe no-one is observant then, 
That's a really nice idea. Also: I have already decided to use Hero Points to help training. Marrkos/Zothen: applying this proposed change to existing characters would be easy, yes. I'd be generating new data for each character anyway (i.e. multiple cap values) so making them properly generated rather than all the same as the current cap value would be easy. I'll try to get to this stuff in the next few days. |
||||
|
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 11, 2009, 10:42 am |
wow my 99* skilled scout with one eye could still have a chance then, i still use her on a regular basis for BL runs , seems like i may have to be more of a hero
|
||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 11, 2009, 10:56 am |
just another nerf or will my leader whose maxed at 254 with multiple skills over 220 and 100 be busted down lower? god i hope not already takes 7 scouts to get 1 point and no its not right imo  if thats gunna happen might as well just tell me to leave.
|
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 11:01 am |
yes darth, I saw this as an opportunity to nerf the top players again. You have cleverly caught me out and realised that my whole intention in spending 30 hours a week over a 4 year period in developing the game is to beat down the high achievers. I don't care about good gameplay or balance or long-term challenge, I just want to nerf! | ||||
|
darthspanky Posted Jun 11, 2009, 11:08 am |
how did it go from remove caps to get to ok now well change it for everyone making it possibly lower yeah if you spend all the time to get a gang high skilled youd bitch too now they coulda maxed at 254 now lets stop at 80 lol thanks great patch i think doc has right idea ill try to stay out of forums have fun nerfing people | ||||
|
wounded Posted Jun 11, 2009, 11:18 am |
But some skills will inevitably be capped higher than they would have been. There'll still be great talents to be found you just have to change they way you look for them. If this is combined with some feedback about the things a character is supposed to be talented in, this could be a great addition to the game!
|
||||
|
Jester Posted Jun 11, 2009, 11:44 am |
Hey Darth
Don't take this the wrong way, but is the "." key broken on your keyboard? The lack of it's use makes it very difficult to read what you have to say. |
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 12:03 pm |
Removing caps is a non-runner. Not a good idea; it's clear that most others here agree with that too. What I could do though is give each player the option of having their current characters keep their current cap for each skill, rather than applying the new system to them. Yours can be unaffected by the change then darth, if that's your preference. |
||||
|
*Longo* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 12:30 pm |
Sorry Sam, I just think this is a bad idea.
Im also disappointed to see it implemented rather than discussed in the Rules Council. |
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 12:33 pm |
Why is it a bad idea to have different skill caps on each skill?
The reason I don't think the RC needs to discuss it is because the average cap will remain as it currently is, and only 'top talent' will still be capable of very high caps. There won't be a sudden flood of uber-characters, if that's your concern. |
||||
|
wounded Posted Jun 11, 2009, 12:43 pm |
Are you planning to group the talents? E.g. Talented driver will also be a talented trucker, talented gunner will be talented with heavy guns as well? | ||||
|
*Longo* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 12:52 pm |
I guess it just wasnt explained well enough, therefore my dissent. How will it affect my current guys? My leader is currently at 334 lg guns unmaxed, does this mean that the scout skill that I have been slowly but surely working up on him will no longer potentially be high capped? |
||||
|
*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 1:06 pm |
Longo - he told Darth it can affect the current guys or not - your choice.
Unless I'm reading it wrong, it won't decrease the cap on anyone, but I could be mistaken, but again - you have the option to pass on this for your current char's. As for the RC - I'm on it and I'm a firm believer in Sam being the developer and he is not required to run anything by the RC. It is a good place to get feedback, summarize feedback, etc., but it's not up to us to make the rules or the changes, only Sam. JL |
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 1:06 pm |
Yes
Not at all, if that's your preference. As I said to darth: What I could do though is give each player the option of having their current characters keep their current cap for each skill, rather than applying the new system to them. Each player would have this choice. |
||||
|
*Longo* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 1:12 pm |
Ah, ok.
Thanks for clarifying Sam. 
|
||||
|
Dr Mathias Posted Jun 11, 2009, 1:23 pm |
I actually kind of like having the same cap level across skills, when I have a guy cap at 121 for example, I know I can switch his training to something else when he hits 100.
Am I reading this right- if a guy caps at 79 for example, his next skill cap could be above or below that? So you could spend time training in a new skill, only to discover that it caps at 95? |
||||
|
*Toecutter* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 1:54 pm |
I think that puts it rather nicely.... |
||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 2:26 pm |
It could, yes. Any existing characters that this is run on could have caps increased or decreased (although not too far, their baseline 'ability for excellence' will still be an over-riding factor). |
||||
|
*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 3:05 pm |
If a current char is maxed (lets say 74 in mech, as I have one) then the change COULD change his max to 84, letting him train more, or drop it to 69. If the latter, would his CURRENT skill drop too? | ||||
|
*sam* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 3:15 pm |
Oh maaaan, no. I'd be lynched. 
|
||||
|
*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 3:19 pm |
LOL - ok - thx for clarification.
When you decide to implement this, I'm okay to have CURRENT gang members be modified as well. JL |
||||
|
*Longo* Posted Jun 11, 2009, 3:26 pm |
I'm not. And I am bigger than you. 
|
||||
|
4saken Posted Jun 12, 2009, 6:58 pm |
I think I would have to know how much skill cap variance would apply before I decided to keep the old or new system (and would it apply across the board to my whole gang?) Would it be 25 points? 50?
This assumes that the only feedback we have is a skill cap. In other words, if I see a guy skill cap at 150 I currently know that all my skills will cap at 150. I'd at least like to know with the new system that if one skill caps at 150 I am at least assured of 100 in the others (50 variance). But if we have other forms of feedback this is not so much a requirement. Say for instance you have a guy that trains 7 points of mech in a week and only 3 in gunner. Naturally if both these skills are not near maxxed then he is a better mech than gunner and I can go with that. Also I think skills should not have a hard cap but a soft one. For instance, when "maxxed" you gain skills at 25% of normal. This means it takes a month to get a week's worth of skills. This is still very bad, but not so much if you have, say, a 98 in a maxxed skill. Anyway I think this all should be discussed a bit more in forums and RC before being implemented. There is a good chance for unintended consequences with all this, I think... |
||||
|
pweelg Posted Jun 12, 2009, 7:08 pm |
This is exactly why i dont like the way it is now, to know in advance that your guy will achieve a given level in a skill because he has reached that level in an unrelated skill just seems to unreal. And hopefully it will give those underachievers that peak at 80 a second chance in life to find a hidden talent for something they didnt know they had |
||||
|
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Jun 12, 2009, 8:20 pm |
I tend to agree with Latte. I'm generally not a big fan of the idea. It takes a long, long time to max any one of a ganger's skills, if I have to find out what he's good at it might take me three years to find the right one.
Knowing ahead what dude's good at would certainly help. |
||||
|
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 12, 2009, 10:03 pm |
hmmm I think it's a bad idea to change skill caps in anyway. I don't really have a good argument against it, just a gut feeling.
Actually, one argument is vets with high cap characters that pick to have same cap, actually are going to wind up with supermen that are not possible with the new system. You know like what are the chances of getting a ganger with all 300s in this new system...surely very much lower that getting lucky ONCE and having it all past 300, than to roll 300s in all the skills on ONE guy. Like this old system - ROLL skill = 300 - boom all skill 300+ New system - Roll skill = 101 200 70 300 56 70, etc Very hard to get an uber ganger like some have now - VERY much more rare. |
||||
|
Marrkos Posted Jun 12, 2009, 10:17 pm |
The counter to this is that those uber gangers are going to age out of the system eventually, and then all characters are using the same system. Could be a while if some of the 'ubers' are young, but it will happen. |
||||
|
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 13, 2009, 12:47 am |
I guess so , frankly I'm seeing players burn out far sooner than old gangers fading away.... | ||||
|
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Jun 13, 2009, 1:28 am |
OLD gangers dont disappear, they just FADE away....
MacArthurJD |
||||
|
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 13, 2009, 2:35 am |
lol thats what I said. | ||||
|
Jaguar Posted Jun 13, 2009, 7:02 am |
Perhaps a combination of variable skill maxes, soft caps, and variable rates of diminishing returns.
The skill max/soft cap would be as it is now - how far a person can train and get fill benefits from it. After that, they can still gain skill points but at a reducing rate - as well, the benefits of those skill points is lessened and aren't worth as much (basically). The rate of diminishing returns may also vary and may not be the same as a gangers natural talents. So you may have someone that is very good at a skill (trains fast), but once they hit their soft cap, they quickly plateau. Conversely, you may have someone that trains slow with a low cap, but even once they hit their cap, they still have relatively steady gains. And then the rare few who have high caps and good returns. |
||||
|
*Zothen* Posted Aug 10, 2009, 12:55 pm |
Now that my next scout apprentice maxed out at 77 I can only repeat:
Get rid of the damn, useless skillcaps that renders gangers useless after months of training! Whatever you peeps that play alot say - at least when you dont play daily its a painful nuisance that this stupid system scraps your chars after such a long time!
After a year REALTIME I still have no more useful scout chars! Man, this really pisses me! For what should I play this game? Pay so I can wait till I finally can play? This randomized skillcaps bring absolutly no gain for gameplay! The vets will sort out their chars anyway - and they have the time for it - peeps like me are stuck helpless watching how more and more of his chars are rendered useless by a sucking random system! The damn red numbers spread like a virus through my roster Ive tried to build up in a longer time than most of the hard-core players... And now it all falls apart... week by week... |
||||
|
*sam* Posted Aug 10, 2009, 1:24 pm |
I feel your pain Zothen, but nevertheless skillcaps are important, I think. How about some system that gives you a vague idea of what the skillcap would be for each of your characters?
e.g. "Low potential" -- cap is below 100 "Average potential" -- cap is between 100 and 150 "Good potential" -- cap is between 150 and 200 "High potential" -- 200-250 "Truly gifted" -- above 250 ..? |
||||
|
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Aug 10, 2009, 1:26 pm |
Yeah i like this I dont want super humans - thats creepy Characters are not just fleshy cars - they get stoned and drunk and such - they are frail , they are human. Skill variation is part of the eccentricties that make them individuals. Not just a string of numbers. GCAC Chars aint Cars COCO |
||||
|
simonmaxhill Posted Aug 10, 2009, 3:12 pm |
I could accept a mitigation of the "skillcap surprise" that we currently get, but I'd really like to keep skill caps around, as I enjoy the way thay make some characters unique and interesting.
"Not every doll in the dollhouse can be barbie," that's my motto. |
||||
|
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Aug 10, 2009, 3:15 pm |
you have individual costumes for each character , right ? 
COCO |
||||
|
wounded Posted Aug 10, 2009, 3:42 pm |
Should the way the gangers are hired change as well if the caps change?
I mean if I want to hire a gunner, in the present system I can get pretty much anything, but in the long run it doesn't really matter as the caps are equal for all skills. But if in the new system I'd get a gunner with 20 skill and he hits the cap at 70, what are the odds that I will test him and notice that he had the potential to be the best trucker Evan has ever seen? Having different skill caps would certainly be more realistic, but as the training can take very long it might also make the game somewhat tedious. Like Sam suggested, some form of feedback on the potential of the character might be the answer. I'm just not sure how I feel about giving too specific feedback either. Maybe you could get an estimate of the character when he get's to 40-50 in a given skillset as you've had time to observe the characters improvement. If the odds are that the cap is going to be below 100 the potential could be poor, 100-150 would be normal and anything above 150 would be talented. The info would then cover all related skills. |
||||
|
*Rahn* Posted Aug 10, 2009, 5:13 pm |
I agree that there should only be some sort of indication of the gangers potential. I would not want to know before hand what the max skill level will be. | ||||
|
White Knight Posted Aug 10, 2009, 6:09 pm |
I love the idea Sam, hope to see it implemented. Maybe even a new Spec: Talent Scout or somethin'. | ||||
|
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 10, 2009, 6:38 pm |
I'm not too sure about knowing what a character's potential is, I mean how would one know that? I can name countless people IRL whose 'potential' is never realised because they have no ambition, or are on drugs, or whatever. I'm an art instructor and a big part of my job is evaluating (rather guessing at) 'potential'.
If you bring in the ability to know what a character's potential is, make it something done through the training center- an 'evaluate potential' option that takes a week to administer, where the trainers look them over good. Magically knowing what a guy's potential is the day you recruit him at the tavern is goofy beyond reason. |
||||
|
Groove Champion Posted Aug 10, 2009, 9:37 pm |
I understand your frustration, Z, but I can't agree with skill caps being removed. I am fervently opposed to all players having a bunch of super-human heroes riding around carelessly. Though 77 is a relatively low point to cap, it's not fair to say this particular ganger is useless! I think a ganger with any skill above 50 has a good chance of accomplishing his duties efficiently. Of course it's nice to have gangers max at 100+ but it isn't essential for the game to be playable. This may be a personal preference, but I'd rather have a ganger with 77 in two or three skills than a single ganger with one skill above 100. Multi-taskers rule Evan! I have to say I'm even opposed to having any indication whatsoever of a ganger's potential in a given skill - though not as fervently as I am opposed to removing skill caps. Someone mentioned there is no possible way of evaluating a ganger's potential. At most I think we should receive a warning when a ganger is within 10 points of capping but nothing more. |
||||
|
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Aug 10, 2009, 10:03 pm |
I don't see any reason to let us know when a ganger is going to cap, especially when they are recruited. This will just lead to us hiring and firing more characters than some of us already do when looking for a new guy. Who is going to sit on that ganger who's going to cap under 100 when the next guy might not cap until over 250?
Further, if gangers are made to cap skills at different levels, I think that they should be capable of reaching the same level in related skills. That is, if they max at 200 gunnery, large guns, hand guns, and maybe even ballistics should also cap at 200 for that ganger, though driving might max at 75. Same could be true of driving/trucking/cycling. The others don't fit quite so nicely. In short, though, I don't really like the idea of any of this changing whatsoever. Seeing your ganger cap at any level is a letdown, but I don't see them as useless, either. They all get sent to Sarsfield for mech training and become camp monkeys for the rest of their lives. |
||||
|
simonmaxhill Posted Aug 10, 2009, 10:56 pm |
Personally, I have a lot of trouble seeing any char with skill above 70 as "useless". | ||||
|
*Tinker* Posted Aug 11, 2009, 1:19 am |
Are you saying that when we first recruit a gangster we know right away? John Smallberries has : --->Good Potential?<--- na i think that's terrible, i will be clicking all night till i get a gangster that will guaranty me 150+ at a minimum! How bout focusing more on other variables like attributes, dexterity that really shows an impact on various skills, or training form that works well and doesn't disappear for one year I had several free recruits cap around a 100, one of them was consistently gaining 5 points in SS in gunery then maxed without warning at 100+ |
||||
|
Groove Champion Posted Aug 11, 2009, 3:17 am |
HAHAHAHA! He certainly does! |
||||
|
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Aug 11, 2009, 7:28 am |
I think this is comparable to Grinding in WOW.
DW is not like that Not in the mechanis sense or the convenience sense. DW is not 'that' kind of game. We dont make things 'easy' for players We give our characetrs addictions It is hard for me to explain , but an intial indicator would be creepy and false and would just be another uglifing route to power gamimg. If you did 10 weeks of full cost training then you could be aloud a single word indicator of the characters potential ( in that skill only) COCO |
||||
|
Twisted Feather Posted Aug 11, 2009, 11:00 am |
Why not have the potential indicator display for a skill when a characters hits 50 in that skill (and get's their first specialism)?
At that point they've been around long enough for the gang to have worked out whether they're a genius or journeyman in that particular skill, so it makes sense RP wise. It's also a good point to switch to training something else if they turn out to have low potential, and are unlikely to get their second specialism in that skill, so it should improve gameplay as well. |
||||
|
Lord Foul Posted Aug 11, 2009, 11:42 pm |
Doc said:
Doc’s idea is a good one and could be implemented easily using the training centers we have now. Have it act like the rehab and cost (X)k, like 1k or 5k to make it a money sink. The training center will spend the game month evaluating the recruit’s potential. Once the evaluation is complete, the potential will be listed like the characters general health. |
||||
|
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 12, 2009, 12:12 am |
I'd like to revise my statement a little bit...
I would suggest- if training center evaluation of ganger potential were to be implemented- that the time to evaluate be randomized a bit. COCO's suggestion seems too long to me, but on retrospect 1 week seems a little short. Yes, it is a month game time but still a small price to pay to know in advance what kind of dude you've hired. I'd suggest perhaps 2-4 weeks to evaluate, and half that in Elmsfield. Or just make it a flat 1-2 weeks and make the option available in Elms only. Elmsfield could be justified in-game by having a better hospital that can give comprehensive exams in conjunction with the training center, and a generally less corrupt culture overall- more likely to engage in a reliable evaluation process. As most of you know I'd like to see some definitive variation between the towns and this seems like a place to do it. |
||||
|
Procyon Posted Aug 14, 2009, 1:57 am |
Make it a psi skill. Psi stands for psychologist
When in an event, the char with the highest psi skill has a chance to evaluate another participant at random. This trains psi. Successful evaluation unlocks this information in the character's stats. (info can be a benign permanent damage tag, like missing ear... no DB schema change needed.) |
||||
|
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Aug 14, 2009, 6:01 am |
" The Trucking Skill is strong in this one"
COCO |