*sam* Posted Apr 27, 2009, 11:41 am	Just to let you know I'm patching in (server-side only) a change that will specifically attempt to stop the NPC cars from attempting to climb hills that are too steep, while doing pathfinding. This particular issue has been gradually getting worse over the last several months, as the amount of pathfinding data available to the NPCs continues to grow. I'd be very interested to hear any observations about their behaviour following this change. I have also made a fix so that peds have their 'bulk carried' reduced (as it should be) when they use up ammo.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 27, 2009, 11:50 am	There goes FL sniping
lordbam Posted Apr 27, 2009, 12:45 pm	Or it makes it more interesting.... Looking forward to trying it out.
Mad Mike Posted Apr 27, 2009, 2:56 pm	If we are on the top of a steep hill does this mean they wont come climbing after us?
*sam* Posted Apr 27, 2009, 3:39 pm	Mike, they *should* take a roundabout route if one exists.
Mad Mike Posted Apr 27, 2009, 3:54 pm	Ill watch out for it
lordbam Posted Apr 27, 2009, 5:10 pm	and what if they don't have it?
Jety Posted Apr 27, 2009, 8:00 pm	If they are taking damage and there is no valid path to the source, they should flee the map.
*sam* Posted Apr 27, 2009, 8:48 pm	They don't exclusively rely on pathfinding, they take several other approaches too, so will have something to fall back on if there's no route.
Fealty Lost Posted Apr 27, 2009, 10:39 pm	...just keeps getting better. Thanks again Sam for the time and effort. Can't wait to see what happens with the NPC's next...I actually had one stop on a ridge and try to snipe me...from 130 meters out.
*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 28, 2009, 5:57 am	Just a little bit of feedback for you Sam. Led a Masher and friends on a chase and the Masher tried an overly steep climb to take a short-cut. However, on finding itself stopped it turned and came down at an angle to go around the hill nicely. The other cars didn't even try the climb in the first place and just came around the hill. So looks pretty good to me so far. When I have the time I will try out a few known spots on the Somerset maps to see how the new pathfinding deals with those.
*sam* Posted Apr 28, 2009, 11:07 am	Quote: Led a Masher and friends on a chase and the Masher tried an overly steep climb to take a short-cut. However, on finding itself stopped it turned and came down at an angle to go around the hill nicely. The other cars didn't even try the climb in the first place and just came around the hill. So looks pretty good to me so far. Excellent! That's precisely what I hoped would happen. Basically potions of the pathfinding data are being marked 'bad' in the uphill direction only, as they're found.
*sam* Posted Apr 28, 2009, 1:59 pm	Here's a section of the pathfinding data in 'Highway to Hell' rendered as green lines, in case you're interested..
lordbam Posted Apr 28, 2009, 3:33 pm	so an NPC car checks how he can go from 1 point to another with that spiderweb?
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Apr 28, 2009, 7:15 pm	That's one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
*sam* Posted Apr 28, 2009, 8:23 pm	Pleased you liked it :-) Quote: so an NPC car checks how he can go from 1 point to another with that spiderweb? Yeah, in order to get from one point to another on the terrain, the NPC finds the closest points on the mesh and then builds the shortest path between them along the mesh. The actual pathing data having been gathered over the last few months by recording human players..
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 28, 2009, 8:37 pm	This is so interesting, letting your secrets out, great to find out a little about the mechanisms of the game
lordbam Posted Apr 28, 2009, 9:11 pm	does the car influence the path finding?
Fealty Lost Posted Apr 28, 2009, 10:00 pm	Sam: Have done two scouts in Elms; one "gates" map and one "road to somerset" map. On "gates," I set up a crossfire on a semi-steep hill with a sloped 'ramp' like bit that led up to where I was sitting with 3 Apaches. A Rocky came straight in on the slope, slowing to do so. A Masher charged straight up the steep slope...slowed...and peeled off and swung around to try the ramped slope. On the other side, there was a small hillock with gulleys around it. The bad guys didn't even bother with the steep slope, instead ducked into the gulleys to avoid fire and came right back up again into the roadway, blazing away. Only when I started firing from that position into their right flank did a Marauder peel off and try to come at us, firing rockets as he did. On the "road to" map, not a lot of high elevations, but I was flanked on the one high side there was by two bad guys...who had to put some real effort into getting into that position. I had to move resources to deal with them. Several Car Rifle and rocket-equipped baddies moved out of the travel path of the 'pack' and onto ridge lines and started sniping at me. Seems a good improvement...the bad guys keep moving more, now...and seem to 'think' about their approaches. Looks good! Thanks!
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Apr 28, 2009, 10:23 pm	Quote: The actual pathing data having been gathered over the last few months by recording human players Let me know if you ever reset it all so that I can be sure to drive around in circles for a few days to confuse the heck outta the NPCs.
Mad Mike Posted Apr 28, 2009, 10:49 pm	northern farmlands map.. I jumped the berm to get into the open area. It took awhile for NPCs to figure out they had to go over the high berm to get to me because on that map the road is surrounded by them. Made it easier because they came at me one at a time but not complaining! but the fact they didnt go over the berm nad tried other ways to only find out there isnt and then came out me showed some intelligence.
*goat starer* Posted Apr 29, 2009, 12:47 am	lordbam said: does the car influence the path finding? thats a really important question Bam.... i am deligheted that razorbacks and texans try to climb stuff they cant but really they should know they cant and find the shortest route on a gradient that they can manage.
*Zothen* Posted Apr 29, 2009, 9:05 am	AI upgrades! I love them! Thanks for jumping into the hassle of AI coding, Sam! =)
*sam* Posted Apr 29, 2009, 9:29 am	Quote: lordbam said: does the car influence the path finding? thats a really important question Bam.... i am deligheted that razorbacks and texans try to climb stuff they cant but really they should know they cant and find the shortest route on a gradient that they can manage. Currently, the vehicle type is not part of the calculation. I guess it probably should be, but it would mean defining some sort of per-chassis scaling factor. Quote: AI upgrades! I love them! Thanks for jumping into the hassle of AI coding, Sam! No prob! This was actually an easy one..
*Tinker* Posted Apr 29, 2009, 12:09 pm	S105455 Just did a fl gates map, from one of my favorite snipe position, unhappy to say that none of the npcs showed any improvement turn 80 box van 340 m away tries to climb an impossible hill, he stayed there till the end turn 200ish the others an elim, pu, and apache did the usuall trying to crawl up my hill while i did the usuall note, i don't know if it's my fault, but one of my peds did a flying leap off the cliff, only to turn around in mid air and try to go back to her (much more strategic) destination whille sliding down a very steep grade, needles to say she didn't make it, if it's a bug can you bring her back plz or maybe it's physics on a side note an other ped sometimes showed the gray waipoint going straight down towards the npc cars, happend several times, and had to make him sit and squat again, hoping he wouln't have the nostalgic impulse to join his friend
Mad Mike Posted Apr 30, 2009, 1:33 am	Event ID S105586 Location: Gates of Somerset Server Date: 2009-04-30 02:19:30 Overall Winner: camp 02 was getting chased and when i went over a hill that wasnt that steep the AI stopped and turned to go around it. I could undeerstand if the NPC driver was scared to drive over where I did. Could be the case... It will let you have a very good chance to get away if they get close, which he was.
*Longo* Posted Apr 30, 2009, 1:46 am	*Tinker* said: S105455 Just did a fl gates map, from one of my favorite snipe position, unhappy to say that none of the npcs showed any improvement turn 80 box van 340 m away tries to climb an impossible hill, he stayed there till the end turn 200ish the others an elim, pu, and apache did the usuall trying to crawl up my hill while i did the usuall note, i don't know if it's my fault, but one of my peds did a flying leap off the cliff, only to turn around in mid air and try to go back to her (much more strategic) destination whille sliding down a very steep grade, needles to say she didn't make it, if it's a bug can you bring her back plz   or maybe it's physics on a side note an other ped sometimes showed the gray waipoint going straight down towards the npc cars, happend several times, and had to make him sit and squat again, hoping he wouln't have the nostalgic impulse to join his friend I sniped FL gates too. They didnt show alot of improvement with me either, although they all made it harder for me to hit them when they stooped and didnt climb. They basically drove out of my LOS, so I had to get 2 of my 3 occupants out and empty their ped weapons into them. One car of the 4 did try and drive around, but where I was camped, he wasnt getting to me anyways. There just wasnt a better route than the way I went. Only thing getting where I was would be a very fast muscle car. I was using a 3.2V8 with A armor Buccaneer.
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Apr 30, 2009, 1:55 am	I had a couple of events in which the AI got stuck trying to climb a hill. In neither event did they try to back down and go around the hill(s). Though one Gallowglass did make a valiant attempt at climbing a very steep hill. (One was at gates of SS, the other at Bloody Red Sky)
*sam* Posted Apr 30, 2009, 10:08 am	How steep were the hills? There are several other algorithms used by the NPCs to get from point A to point B.. the pathfinding we have been discussing is their favoured approach, but they fall back on other approaches when that fails.
*Longo* Posted Apr 30, 2009, 11:50 am	*sam* said: How steep were the hills? There are several other algorithms used by the NPCs to get from point A to point B.. the pathfinding we have been discussing is their favoured approach, but they fall back on other approaches when that fails. Quite steep. Unless I have a pretty good speed going I cant get up there. And without A armor I dont think I can either, hehe
The Paranoid Tourist Posted Apr 30, 2009, 11:57 am	Bloody Red Sky: The hill wasn't terribly steep and the NPC could have made it up with a bit of speed, but I think it came into it only shortly after the start. He was within about 20 meters of the proper road which would've taken him to the same place that he wanted to go. Gates of SS: The two cars which got stuck were trying to climb a hill only the climbiest of cars could actually make. They chose to climb rather than go around the hill, this time about 60 meters from the pass.
Mad Mike Posted May 29, 2009, 1:48 pm	I have noticed when they lose sight of your vehicle they slow down and bunch up again unless you have them really split up. they also go full speed and climb a hill if you did the same to get a nice high shooting position, something that has changed. before they wouldnt attempt to climb the slope you just went full speed to climb. getting harder to find spots they wont climb
simonmaxhill Posted May 29, 2009, 5:41 pm	Heheh, the new AI pathfinding and pirate composition in Firelight damn near killed my gang leader today, and beat the hell out of one of my 5Lv8 engines. I am, at this moment, too scared to take my lorries out on the road! Hurray! Thanks Sam!
ISHOULDCOCO Posted May 29, 2009, 6:04 pm	Vamp just played dead on me? I was CGLing him and just stopped But he stopped at top of hill ! I reversed right done into valley in my Estate ( i know i know check meoutlast of the big spenders) AND WHAMMO ! down he comes - sneaky bugger COCO
Marrkos Posted May 31, 2009, 5:58 am	Never seen them run away quite like this before... S114677 Watch the Sonic run for the fence.
Lord Foul Posted May 31, 2009, 6:28 am	Marrkos said: Never seen them run away quite like this before... S114677 Watch the Sonic run for the fence. First time I've seen the AI do that, it was very intelligent of him(AI) as any other path would have got him killed. The AI is learning from its mistakes.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted May 31, 2009, 2:52 pm	I have been telling you guys this from the beginning!.. OK, well since I joined and subbed. The AI learns from YOUR/OUR mistakes! It may take a while before you see the change, but IT WILL change! Tell me a year from now that I am wrong. We both have to prove our side of the (AI-getting smarter/or not) debate! I can wait a year to debate this! 3-ringbinderofproofJD
PieMonster Posted May 31, 2009, 6:21 pm	I put most of the pirate pursuit in a recent 6 car solo scout into a deep sandbowl using spikes on a narrow road... normally they will try the steep side and not get out... This time they traversed the bowl to the shallow gradient and exited there, with some stopping in the middle of the bowl as they now had LOS on 1 or 2 of my cars... Definately better routing and logic there... Pie
Mad Mike Posted Jun 1, 2009, 12:14 am	now all we do is start driving off cliffs again and the AI will start doing the same !
Serephe Posted Jun 1, 2009, 1:00 am	Way ahead of ya Mike.
*Toecutter* Posted Jun 1, 2009, 4:58 am	Well i've certainly noticed (and JD wil back me up) how much more competant the AI has been over the last couple of years....any better Sam and yer gonna have to start lowering the odds lol, they're gonna be more crafty than the players lol. Good Job!
Serephe Posted Jun 1, 2009, 5:05 am	i point da shooty end and pull da trigga hurr hurr hurr
*Toecutter* Posted Jun 1, 2009, 6:42 am	Too late, they're already craftier than the players
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 1, 2009, 8:35 am	*Toecutter* said: Well i've certainly noticed (and JD wil back me up) how much more competant the AI has been over the last couple of years....any better Sam and yer gonna have to start lowering the odds lol, they're gonna be more crafty than the players lol. Good Job!  Nowt like a challenge, to keep us on our toes ( could make a bad pun, but wont ), maybe its the competence of the newer players, giving them all their new route finding ( or maybe they have invested Clever AI )
Serephe Posted Jun 1, 2009, 9:08 am	GPS explains why the AI runs into walls a lot. ^_^
*sam* Posted Jun 4, 2009, 9:16 pm	Quote: now all we do is start driving off cliffs again and the AI will start doing the same ! Actually they throw away any pathing data from a car for several moves before it takes collision damage.
Mad Mike Posted Jun 4, 2009, 10:37 pm	drat
*Longo* Posted Jun 12, 2009, 10:35 pm	Im getting a ton of NPCs ramming me now. They are all smaller than my car... no ram either
*Speedealer* Posted Jun 12, 2009, 11:42 pm	Sam, not sure how it affected (if it did) any arena events, but they're bunching up now. And not shooting that much. At least in the league combat I did today. May want to check that out. event ID 55051
*Ayjona* Posted Jun 13, 2009, 11:59 pm	Yes, the NPCs seem way to ram-happy, on the verge of kamikaze. I had a flash ram my merc today in the wilderness. I lost perhaps a few points of armor. The flash's driver died, he lost lots of armor, and half the systems on the car broke. It made the battle quite easy, but somehow it felt... easier than it should have And this was not the first NPC that ran headlong at me, without a ram. I don't think the rammings have ended well for any of the NPCs that have collided with me. Is this intended, Sam? It does make any kind of high-speed dogfight very lethal, but it kinda messes with immersion. Or are the wastelands just that very boring that every pirate tries to collide with anything in his way?
wounded Posted Jun 14, 2009, 6:13 am	We did our first escort mission yesterday and the escorted AI tends to forget the move order and instead makes a tight turn every now and then trying to engage the pursuers. Re-issuing the order then makes them turn back to where they are supposed to... most of the time. This makes the npc-traders much slower than they would be if they would do what they are told. Is this a bug or a feature?
Jaguar Posted Jun 14, 2009, 7:54 pm	S118782 The Biter goes into the drink. I'm not sure if it was avoidable or not (it was going 35 MPH) but my gut feeling says that if it knew to slow down and turn, it could have instead of trying do a full throttle turn (which is what it seemed like it did). Too had I didn't have an extra guy and felt like getting the other car to demo too... free cars!