*sam* Posted Apr 6, 2007, 10:35 pm	I'm just about to patch in the courage/stress code. Please be careful and preferably do your next couple of combats as 'test only', since there may be bugs and there will likely be some tweaking to do.. Basically we're simulating character psychology/fear here, and characters under a lot of stress (particularly those with low courage) will tend to surrender/resign against your wishes. Don't forget that the gang's morale and the gang event leader's leadership is part of the equation too. The leadership assistance is halved if your gang leader is not present and someone else is standing in, and it becomes zero if the leader is incapacitated. The stress factors are: o    character is in an arena combat (+5) o    or, character is in a wilderness combat (+10) o    Character is leader (-15 or ?25 depending on whether he is also the overall gang leader) o    no decent medic available (+3) o    excellent medic available (-3) Note that in a town event excellent medics are always on hand. In the wilderness you have to bring your own. o    Car does not contain event leader (+3) o    Each co-passenger who wants to surrender (+10) o    Each team member wound (+1) o    Each co-passenger wound (+1) o    Each team member death (+4) o    Each co-passenger death (+8 if 2 characters are in vehicle, +5 if 3 characters are in vehicle, etc.) o    Character himself gets wounded (+4) o    An opponent is wounded (-1) o    An opponent dies (-4) o    Car armour breached (for each side breached): (+10) o    team/player is out numbered in terms of firepower (+varies) (for this calculation the new fear factor of weapons is included) o    Car is on fire (+25) o    Car being targetted/under fire (+2 to +6 per weapon, depends on fear factors) o    Car takes damage (varies, anything from +0.1 to +20.0 depending on severity of damage) edit: note that a car doesn't surrender until all of its occupants decide to. However, having a co-passenger freak out is a +10 courage hazard..
*sam* Posted Apr 6, 2007, 10:42 pm	Here's a synposis of the fear factor values: Extremely scary ------------------- Heavy Flamethrower Tank Gun Very scary ------------ Flamethrower Radar Guided Missile Anti Tank Gun Heavy Machine Gun Car Cannon Heavy Rocket Scary ------ Machine Gun Rocket Launcher Heavy Laser Medium Rocket Tripod Machine Gun Average --------- Micromissile Launcher Car Rifle Laser Mine Dropper Spike Dropper Flaming Oil Jet Heavy Flaming Oil Jet Car Grenade Launcher Light Rocket Mini Rocket Grenade Grenade Launcher Light Anti Tank Weapon Mounted Ram Mounted Spikes Not really so scary at all ---------------------------- Submachine Gun Rifle Shotgun Pistol Some of these towards the end are hand weapons, not yet implemented of course, but they're in the database.
Black Mamba Posted Apr 7, 2007, 12:03 am	How often is their stress tested? Is it every round for whatever has happened to them that round? or is it every time something stressful happens? Just curious, as a vehicle with a large crew could more easily surrender if one or to members with low courage surrendered. Also, what constitutes a decent medic? Or is that still up for debate
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 12:50 am	Well, I didn't really go into the detail there, but the components of stress are separated into permanent and transient ones. The test is done once per move but only when stress increased during that move.
Black Mamba Posted Apr 7, 2007, 1:15 am	Works for me, Thanks.
*Toecutter* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 1:43 am	Well it auto surrendered one of my hearses on me :/ wasn't a test either....they stress out too easily.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Apr 7, 2007, 6:46 am	Instead of "auto-surrender" for player controlled gang members, can you give we players an option to accept the surrender or take a loss on the targeting and/or to hit for weapons? OR....if we have no weapons, if we dont get to town and escape or get out of range (400m) of viable enemies, we will be auto-surrendered in say 60 game turns. You have 1 minute to get clear or your car surrenders. I am SERIOUSLY opposed to the auto surrender for my own gang members!
*viKKing* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 7:24 am	see my reply in the other thread: Real Scouting Missions, Revised. I quote myself: Quote: A solution might be to use the CR of a car as base for the Morale. I have to disagree with you JD; being a wargamer for decades (gulp - I can't be that old! nooooo... ), this is a normal behaviour of your units. But, I had proposed the Leader to be the only character to be under full control of the player.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Apr 7, 2007, 9:57 am	I know......... just because I don't like the sequence of gameplay, doesn't mean I have to play! TOO LATE!....... I'm a lifer here! (Lifer = A player who pays for a game and then spends sleepless hours tormenting the developers with "his version" of needless code tweaks and gameplay variables, making the developers forehead vein pulse in agonizing pain as his brain expands in a complete full neural anuerism!) hehe JD
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 10:12 am	JD- I don't want to have one rule for the NPCs and another for the players. However.. certainly the variables in the auto-surrender calcs do need to be tweaked (sorry tc, I hope the 3 hearsemen get a new buddy soon). I'm going to make the auto-surrender much more related to your own car's state, and less related to other stuff going on around you, that seems to be the main fault right now. I'll also boost the effect of a good leader.
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 12:21 pm	Here's the modifications I've made and am just trying out: 1. The leadership effect has been increased a lot. 2. Rather than just penalising you for breaches in the armour, there's now a more complex armour-related calculation which can actually reduce stress in many cases (see below) 3. Internal damage causes stress more than damage that doesn't get thru the armour (damage that doesn't get thru the armour is also a transient stress, whereas internal damage is a permanent stress) Armour-related stress calcs (all based on your own car's armour): * Having more than 2 sides with destroyed or nearly-destroyed armour is very bad * Having several very strong sides (>20 armour) with no destroyed sides is very good * Having 2 or more sides with low but not destroyed armour (<=5 pts) is mildly bad
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 2:30 pm	After a couple of tests, I think the stress/surrender code is working much better. However, I'd like to re-open the debate about 'surrendered' cars being immobilised. At the moment they're not, of course, since they're not actually surrendered until their team-mates all agree to surrender. In my last combat, my car went on fire and my characters eventually 'surrendered' which was fair enough. But then the fire went out and the car was still reasonably workable. If I had been immobilised I would not have been able to use it.
Acierocolotl Posted Apr 7, 2007, 2:59 pm	Having had my crew surrender in an epic fight last night, but still able to get away, of course I like that a surrender is not necessarily the end of a combat. You realize, of course, that this isn't a surrender. You know that as well, which is why you stress "would like to surrender." I think the ideal solution here is to change the text that's used. Call it "bad morale" or "in a panic", but keep the rest the same--as in when all crew are suffering from bad morale, the squad will surrender. A few caveats are required: If you prefer that "surrendered" crew can still move and fight, let them suffer penalties on firing, or not be able to shoot at all for a time. I don't mind them trying to make a break for it at all--I'm *for* that, in fact--but I am less fond of taking surprise fire from a threat I thought was neutralized. I'd also like to suggest a tiered morale reaction. Very low morale may result in a crew wanting to flee, AND (I'd like to stress this in bold) the player should get advance notice! (So-and-so has poor morale!) A fresh F-key should be set that would show the morale of the most cowardly crew member as some kind of relative qualifier: high, okay, low, terrified, panicked (or similar). And then I'd like to suggest drugs. They'll have some kind of bad longterm effect on users and probably a notoriety effect as well, but if my one guy starts to panic one more time, I'm getting him stoned on cheap drugs next time he goes to fight. Finally, I'd like to suggest that a crew can recover after a time. The margin for recovering from poor morale should be higher than suffering, if you follow. (If the threshold for panic was 0, let the recovery be 20, say. I have no clue what the numbers actually are, so I made that up.) If the gang suddenly has a change of fortune in battle, the cowards may find themselves heartened; or if a car was suffering from fire and a lucky crew hit, and they shake off the stun and extinguish the flames, they may be interested in fighting again. (Complete tangent: I wonder if crews might have phobias?)
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 3:19 pm	Thanks for the discussion. Yes, I agree with what you're saying. Quote: And then I'd like to suggest drugs. They'll have some kind of bad longterm effect on users and probably a notoriety effect as well, but if my one guy starts to panic one more time, I'm getting him stoned on cheap drugs next time he goes to fight. Yes, definitely. Performance-enhancing drugs were already planned, but courage-enhancing ones I hadn't considered. Nice one! Thinking along these lines, one of the psionic skills could be a personal courage boost too. We need names for the drugs by the way.. I've already made up 'neophetamines' which enhance speed and strength; we need others to enhance dexterity, courage, training effectiveness. Any ideas for names or other things they could be applied to? Quote: Call it "bad morale" or "in a panic", but keep the rest the same The term I have been using is "freaked out". Is that too colloquial? Here's the other psionic skills that are planned atm (I realise this is a tangent, but hey): o    tell if a weapon will hit before it?s fired o    mind attack - damage, other critical hits, stop driver from steering o    psionic ability: ?push?. Like the main thing that Jedi?s do: applies an impulse to a vehicle/character o    psionics: screw up someone?s next move, or control their next move (takes more skill) o    force fields: for personal defence or to defend an entire vehicle (requires higher skill) I'm looking forward to seeing psionics in race events actually, since they can't be outlawed in the way that weapons can
*viKKing* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 4:20 pm	Here's the other psionic skills that are planned atm (I realise this is a tangent, but hey): o tell if a weapon will hit before it?s fired o mind attack - damage, other critical hits, stop driver from steering o psionic ability: ?push?. Like the main thing that Jedi?s do: applies an impulse to a vehicle/character o psionics: screw up someone?s next move, or control their next move (takes more skill) o force fields: for personal defence or to defend an entire vehicle (requires higher skill) One I would like to add is "6th sense" or extravision to allow blind drivers to get in race again. But we also need to have characters loosing 2 eyes and not only one. I also suggested adding legs less gunner and why not drivers with a modified gearing system in an old thread.
*viKKing* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 4:22 pm	about Phobias: maybe weapon stress effect should be used once a given character has been under fire of one of that type. I mean a character that would have been caught in the fire of a flamethrower would certainly more panicked when it would happen again. Well, in fact, it is very frightening anyway.
Acierocolotl Posted Apr 7, 2007, 4:55 pm	So far as "freaked out" goes, I think it's too colloquial myself. In North America, it also tends to make reference to a bad drug trip, or a screaming rage. "Terrified" might better encapsulate what you were looking to get at. I have mixed feelings about psionics, but I'll just leave it be. I do wonder what the benefit of "determine if the next shot will hit or miss" will do? Are the random numbers seeded in such a way that if you elect not to take a missing shot, you would get a different roll next time? (Doubtless they are.) A few drug names: "Liquid Courage"--one of many slang terms for alcohol around these parts. A strong dose doesn't do driving or gunning any favours, but I guiltily admit that a spot of DUI would be a bit amusing in this game (but no laughing matter in reality). "Hind" (from Einherjar) or "Novo" or "Nove" (Novocaine) the drug primarily makes crew feel no pain at all, which would make wound-based morale modifiers ignored. "Zerk" or "Vike"--renders the crew member fearless--berserker! But they also lack firing discipline and may lock on and fire at targets of their own volition. "Caf" (caffeine), "Pops" or "Trucker's Friend" (poppers, amphetamines)--Makes the user aggressive (depending on strength, reduces the fear margins), reduces or eliminates fatigue (good for travel missions) and in the case of amphetamines, vastly improves user alertness. Caf in lower doses would be good for students as well; Pop is just too strong. "Focusin", with respect to one of the few episodes of The Simpsons which I saw. It was their knockoff of Ritalin, which acts pretty much as small doses of amphetamines act, but tailored more towards improving focus than reducing fear or increasing aggression. "46" (Prototype 46-Ys)--a completely fictional drug that greatly reduces fear and improves alertness (a small dexterity boost, say). First, it's obscenely expensive as requires incredibly elaborate facilities to manufacture, and secondly, accelerates character aging.
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2007, 5:20 pm	Ace, thanks for all the detail: very useful :-) I hadn't actually considered alcohol, but it leads me to think this: your characters, not you, decide that they are users/addicts. So if you have an alcoholic character, he's as likely as not to turn up drunk at a mission. Also a drug addict character costs more to "feed" than a regular one. I don't think we actually need to track doses of drugs and supply/demand in the game database. RE psionics: why don't you like them? I would point out that although quite powerful, they will also be very rare, and you won't even know you have a psionic for several years after you get him into your gang. Mind-powers are quite a common theme in post-apocalyptic stories, no? -- one of DW's main influences being Judge Dredd 'Cursed Earth', there's a very memorable psionic mutant in it. Quote: I do wonder what the benefit of "determine if the next shot will hit or miss" will do? Are the random numbers seeded in such a way that if you elect not to take a missing shot, you would get a different roll next time? (Doubtless they are.) It would allow you to take a shot that you otherwise wouldn't due it being unlikely to hit. It would also save you ammo. I guess it's a pretty weak ability- although it could therefore be a longterm one that stays in effect for the entire combat perhaps.
Acierocolotl Posted Apr 7, 2007, 9:57 pm	I don't have a rational reason to dislike psionics, and if they're rare then so much the better. I've just never been much of a fan of high fantasy in any of its guises (a source of amusing friciton between my girlfriend and I!) and, well, I guess the impossible-to-explain leaves me a little cold. It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the game, don't get me wrong. It's just a personal dislike and it's not my role to confront your design in any guise. I can't say that I recall mindpowers being at all common in post-apocalyptic fiction; I'm more familiar with John Wyndham's work ("The Chrysalids," and "Day of the Triffids," ), Neal Stephenson ("Snowcrash", which was more dystopian than post-apoc), most cyberpunk-style stuff, and of course Mad Max; of that lot, only the very first book involved psionics. I'd just like to stress that I'm very pleased that such things are rare. Actually, "Determine if this next shot will miss," could be quite useful, if only because, in the event of unskilled characters such as my crew, I'd rather not fire if the shot wouldn't have any effect, and running low on ammunition has always been a pressing concern. Having characters with flaws is intruiging; it would take some pretty desperate people to risk life and limb over relatively trivial matters, after all. Keeping the costs of such habits simply rolled up in weekly income is genius and reduces administrivia. It's been my experience that if somebody really wants to get stoned, they will find a way to do it; the price of such habits might fluctuate in some towns, based on availability. (And it's also been my experience that if there's a market, somebody will look to supply that market.)
Black Mamba Posted Apr 8, 2007, 3:44 am	On the topic of leadership, would it be possible to make the leader of a gang the character with the highest combined Leadership/Courage? Right now the leader of the Maniacs has a great leadership skill, but her courage sucks. Earlier in a test fight a round penetrated the armor, but the armor was still viable(I admit it was down to just a few pooints, but it was still there), she wanted to flee. Very soon after the vehicle wanted to surrender. I think it makes more sense to have it a combined score, or maybe average of the two.
*sam* Posted Apr 8, 2007, 9:08 am	Mamba- that makes sense.. I'll do that. edit: I've just done it. I also found a bug while modifying the code: due to a typo, the courage boost due to being the leader in an event wasn't being accounted for. D'oh.
Acierocolotl Posted Apr 9, 2007, 3:20 am	I feel satisfied with the morale system now, by and large, but one extreme example came up yet: S685 Bashers Rogues vs. Desert Hyenas JD and I were using low-CR race cars. The enemy Constrictor crew had a crew casualty, I think, but the crew was definitely turned into hamburger. We ran out of ammo and he wouldn't die or surrender. We resorted to ramming and he still wouldn't die. Since it was just a test fight, we simply quit. That dude in particular was way too tough. He probably had a single eyeball left and was shooting us dirty glares.
*sam* Posted Apr 9, 2007, 11:25 am	Quote: That dude in particular was way too tough. He probably had a single eyeball left and was shooting us dirty glares. Do you recall if his name was Joshua Harper? I see a guy by that name was actually killed but his car didn't surrender I think. Possibly a bug somewhere else then, not with the morale system as such. Edit: Looking at the code, here's what happens: if a good shot takes out a character who had not previously surrendered, then he won't surrender after that, being incapacitated. A bit of a logical flaw methinks!.. I'll fix it...
Acierocolotl Posted Apr 9, 2007, 10:07 pm	Another suggestion, as per that last match I left regular feedback about: If a crew member has broken, but the rest of the crew has not, and stress levels have abated enough, perhaps the one panicking crew member might realize how silly he is and get hold of himself and, if you will, unbreak? It might take, say, five or ten rounds at 0 stress to do so. It's not something likely to happen in the thick of combat, but could conceivably happen otherwise. (I did have a man panic during an Interceptor chase, while the other crew member just pointed and laughed. (And, of course, NPC cargo haulers should probably be more cowardly. It's pretty rough chasing down haulers at the moment.)
*sam* Posted Apr 9, 2007, 10:20 pm	Yes, I had that suggestion noted down, it does make sense, thanks. I'm working on travel and trade at the moment, so I'll come back to this in a day or two.
*viKKing* Posted Apr 12, 2007, 2:52 pm	I would be good to have reputation slowly going up each time you accept a truce from a Trader gang. I don't know, maybe 0.5 points?
*sam* Posted Apr 12, 2007, 2:56 pm	Yes. I guess the fact that you're just as likely to meet pirates when you got out of town means that this won't be abusable.
Acierocolotl Posted Apr 12, 2007, 3:58 pm	Shouldn't pirates have negative reputation? Or should if they attack player convoys, at least? It amounts to the same thing, admittedly.
*Speedealer* Posted Apr 14, 2007, 10:17 pm	After a while of testing now, I agree with Ace's last point but would like to take it further. Pirates should still have a reputation but I think the reputation of any gang should always be a positive number whether you're 'good' or 'evil'. Reputation should essentially be how well your gang is known around Evan - good or bad. Pirates may possibly even have a bigger reputation than the good guys. Maybe we need to add another catagory - like a lawfullness one for example. And that could be the one that affects morale (in addition to winning or losing battles). If you're mostly evil and attack traders, you're morale would go up and vice versa. If you're a pirate and attack other pirates, it would go towards zero, etc.
*Toecutter* Posted Apr 14, 2007, 11:02 pm	*Speedealer* said: Reputation should essentially be how well your gang is known around Evan - good or bad. Umm isn't that what Fame is for? Rep i figured worked more like, even if your gang isn't really a household name(low fame) those that have heard of you say yer scum(low rep) or really nice boy scouts(high rep)
*Speedealer* Posted Apr 14, 2007, 11:23 pm	uh, ya. Thanks TC. Knew I shouldn't switch to the hard stuff and then post Guess what I was trying to get at was that I was assuming that fame went down with bad deeds and up with good ones. I think this is the case, but if not, nevermind. If so, shouldn't it just be up with scout wins, down with lost ones? I think I already know the answer. Where's the clickable smile with drunk x's in his eyes?
*viKKing* Posted Apr 14, 2007, 11:35 pm	Speed, regarding your current gang reputation and fame value: Quote: Fame: 636 Reputation: -47 I can tell you: 1) you are known to be a good road warrior and thus must be feared 2) you tend to attack traders, and are considering as a bad guy. Not evil guy yet though. Don't switch to the dark side!
*Speedealer* Posted Apr 15, 2007, 12:08 am	Thanks Vikk. I'll try and form my thoughts on this better tomorrow *hic*
*Toecutter* Posted Apr 15, 2007, 12:37 am	*viKKing* said: 2) you tend to attack traders, and are considering as a bad guy. Not evil guy yet though. Don't switch to the dark side! Let your Turning to the Dark Side be Complete, Speed! We will rule the galaxy together as F....err nvermind
*sam* Posted Apr 15, 2007, 9:39 pm	As vikking says, fame is a measure of how well you're known, while reputation is a measure of how good/evil/trustworthy you're known to be.
*Speedealer* Posted Apr 15, 2007, 9:50 pm	ok, so is this how it works? fame: increases with battle wins, decreases with battles lost reputation: positive with attacking pirates, letting traders go, negative with attacking traders morale: increases with successful battles, decreases with lost battles, dead gang members, lost vehicles
*sam* Posted Apr 15, 2007, 9:58 pm	That's pretty much it speed, yes. Don't forget in-town events too, they are a more stable source of fame since not all wilderness battles are witnessed by anyone.
*Speedealer* Posted Apr 15, 2007, 10:07 pm	By jove, I think I got it! Maybe not the right place to put this, but same topic, so... if you're a member of a squad with someone else, and they do missions without you - and you have no vehicles currently in the squad - does that effect your fame/rep/morale as well? I would think not, but just checking.