*sam* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 1:25 pm	A small blast weapon tweak: * Weapons that explode on the terrain now have a blast center a metre up rather than at the contact point (to stop bottom armour taking all the effect) And two exploits fixed: * The NPCs will now only respect your surrender in town events if you cease firing. Otherwise they will continue to fire at you. (Note that some NPCs don’t respect surrenders anyway). * I have plugged a loophole in the 'no team killing' rule – now, you cannot target or fire at an inanimate object (terrain, building, etc.) if it's less than 10m from a team-mate.
lordbam Posted Jan 7, 2009, 1:32 pm	Quote: (Note that some NPCs don’t respect surrenders anyway). hehe i love this line
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 7, 2009, 2:10 pm	theres always rams..for own team killing....grograt looks at ninesticks
darthspanky Posted Jan 7, 2009, 2:31 pm	latte just drive in front of him and use a dropped weapon
Marrkos Posted Jan 7, 2009, 3:25 pm	*sam* said: now, you cannot target or fire at an inanimate object (terrain, building, etc.) if it's less than 10m from a team-mate. Well, that's disappointing. Incidentally, did the 'balance boys' in the RC vet these, or did they skip that step and jump right to implemented?
*sam* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 3:31 pm	Quote: Well, that's disappointing. Why? It's surely pretty rare to want to target the terrain so close to a team-mate anyway? If you're concerned about weapons that could be legitimately fired close to a team-mate (er.. I guess that's just paint guns and smoke guns?) I could remove them from the rule. Quote: Incidentally, did the 'balance boys' in the RC vet these, or did they skip that step and jump right to implemented? I just implemented them.
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Jan 7, 2009, 3:45 pm	*sam* said: A small blast weapon tweak: I think this will spell very bad news for Peds - I a barren worls devoid of cover - this will make matters worse for them ( I think  - cannot prove it yet) Boucing ap mines used to popup one metres before detonating Just moaning - may have no effect COCO
Marrkos Posted Jan 7, 2009, 3:52 pm	*sam* said: Why? It's surely pretty rare to want to target the terrain so close to a team-mate anyway? If you're concerned about weapons that could be legitimately fired close to a team-mate (er.. I guess that's just paint guns and smoke guns?) I could remove them from the rule. I'm concerned that every bending of the rules that is counter to the spirit of the game seems to result in a rules change that restricts gameplay more.  (And, actually, it's not the spirit of the game that is getting bent, it is the spirit of the current community.) As has already been mentioned in this thread, dropped and melee weapons can still be used.  Will they become 'smart' and not detonate/impact when in contact with a teammate? Players could target an enemy, and keep their teammate between them and the enemy.  Will projectiles become 'smart' and go around them, or pass magically through the teammate? The absurd ending of all of this is....I don't know.... Mario Kart, or something. *sam* said: I just implemented them. Isn't the RC supposed to exist to prevent the 'one person makes a suggestion, it gets implemented, playerbase-at-large points out all the things the original person didn't think of that make the suggestion not as perfect as initially thought' situation?
*sam* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 4:04 pm	Quote: I'm concerned that every bending of the rules that is counter to the spirit of the game seems to result in a rules change that restricts gameplay more.  (And, actually, it's not the spirit of the game that is getting bent, it is the spirit of the current community.) I understand you concern, but you're missing a very big point: by leaving exploitable 'grey areas' open to the good will of the players, you're actually leaving areas of potential argument. By tying things down unambiguously, I'm actually reducing the potential for argument/griefing. And be serious here.. targeting the terrain close a team-mate.. how often have you done that? Quote: As has already been mentioned in this thread, dropped and melee weapons can still be used.  Will they become 'smart' and not detonate/impact when in contact with a teammate? No, that would be dumb. They're not a major source of exploiting for teamkilling anyway, AFAIK. Quote: Players could target an enemy, and keep their teammate between them and the enemy. I know that could still happen, but it would be very hard to do effectively, and therefore not a source of concern IMO. There are certain things that probably can never be tied down, but the major loopholes/exploits do need to be, sorry. Quote: Will projectiles become 'smart' and go around them, or pass magically through the teammate? Er.. I assume you're not actually looking for an answer on that one. Quote: The absurd ending of all of this is....I don't know.... Mario Kart, or something. Sure, if your slightly crazed extrapolation of where this is all going is true. But it's not. Quote: Isn't the RC supposed to exist to prevent the 'one person makes a suggestion, it gets implemented, playerbase-at-large points out all the things the original person didn't think of that make the suggestion not as perfect as initially thought' situation? Not really, they're mostly there for balancing. If the playerbase-at-large can make good arguments for the need to target the terrain close to team-mates being more important than closing an exploit for teamkilling, I'm quite happy to discuss it.
Marrkos Posted Jan 7, 2009, 4:34 pm	*sam* said: A small blast weapon tweak: * Weapons that explode on the terrain now have a blast center a metre up rather than at the contact point (to stop bottom armour taking all the effect) Does this include rocket-based weapons that miss their intended target, and impact the terrain?
*sam* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 4:42 pm	Quote: Does this include rocket-based weapons that miss their intended target, and impact the terrain? Yes
Marrkos Posted Jan 7, 2009, 5:02 pm	*sam* said: Quote: Does this include rocket-based weapons that miss their intended target, and impact the terrain? Yes OK, that is completely nonsensical IMO, but this is obviously a done deal, so I'll stop now.
Bytten Posted Jan 7, 2009, 5:11 pm	*sam* said: A small blast weapon tweak: * Weapons that explode on the terrain now have a blast center a metre up rather than at the contact point (to stop bottom armour taking all the effect) I agree with the question about terrain impacts. If an explosion goes off on the ground, there will be *some* blast damage to the bottom armour. I have, however, a bigger question that hasn't yet been asked. What about mines? These things are built for bottom armour damage. Do they explode a metre up now?
*goat starer* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 5:20 pm	*sam* said: * I have plugged a loophole in the 'no team killing' rule – now, you cannot target or fire at an inanimate object (terrain, building, etc.) if it's less than 10m from a team-mate. can we have a no team killing tweak that means that if you drive your double ram apache into a team mates Renowned car after firing your rocket boosters your vehicle explodes, all your money gets given to the Somerset Home for Distressed Cats, your gang leader contracts syphilis from a liaison with a chicken and 40,000 volts of electricity are delivered via your mouse? please?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 7, 2009, 5:22 pm	Bitter
*sam* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 5:33 pm	Quote: Quote: Quote: Does this include rocket-based weapons that miss their intended target, and impact the terrain? Yes OK, that is completely nonsensical IMO, but this is obviously a done deal, so I'll stop now. I think you're mistaking why I did this change to explosion damage. It was nothing to with airbursts, but to do with how explosion damage is traced to the primary vehicle side. I guess without precise knowledge of how things are implemented, it's hard to see why this was a good change. Basically, a single line is traced from an explosion to the centre of the vehicle, and whichever side it hits takes the damage. But in real life the main force of an explosion won't trace in a straight line from precisely at the ground, much of it will actually rebound off the ground before hitting the target. I have simulated this by lifting the explosion point slightly. Note: I have reverted this change to explosions, since the RC has decided this is a balance change and not required. Quote: I have, however, a bigger question that hasn't yet been asked. What about mines? These things are built for bottom armour damage. Do they explode a metre up now? No, mines remain the same as before. Quote: can we have a no team killing tweak that means that if you drive your double ram apache into a team mates Renowned car after firing your rocket boosters your vehicle explodes, all your money gets given to the Somerset Home for Distressed Cats, your gang leader contracts syphilis from a liaison with a chicken and 40,000 volts of electricity are delivered via your mouse? please? Yep. .. er, but we couldn't find a chicken that you'd find attractive, goat. We had to make do with a goat in a chicken costume.
darthspanky Posted Jan 7, 2009, 7:06 pm	what we realy need if in fl all team killing rules dont exist. including any arenas there, we could have player assasinations in the arena pitfights for yer freedom. muhahahahaha
*goat starer* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 7:42 pm	*sam* said: Yep. .. er, but we couldn't find a chicken that you'd find attractive, goat. We had to make do with a goat in a chicken costume. it says if YOU do it YOUR gang leader gets the chicken pox (geddit!  chicken pox  lol) I dont do it. I leave that sort of team killing MADNESS to other people. people who are NINCOMPOOPS!! Like... just pulling a name out of the hat here at random... NINESTICKS!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRR!!!
*Ninesticks* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 7:47 pm	Good point. Sam, can you please make Ecky Thump at least renowned now that it is a legend killer (albeit by accident)
*goat starer* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 9:21 pm	you call that an ACCIDENT!!! everybody SAW you firing your rocket booster as you lined yourself up!!! He is in the pay of SHARK I tell you!!! Sharks MINNION!!!!!
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 7, 2009, 9:22 pm	hee hee...sits back and watches the fun
*viKKing* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 9:34 pm	Here are viKKing words of wisdom: Make mortar explosions vary between both modes (old damage system and new damage system) on a 50% base. Sometimes mortar shells are doing more bottom damages, sometimes they don't.
Victor Posted Jan 7, 2009, 10:54 pm	*sam* said: * I have plugged a loophole in the 'no team killing' rule – now, you cannot target or fire at an inanimate object (terrain, building, etc.) if it's less than 10m from a team-mate. But nothing stops you from targetting something more distant, and gunning them down. Why can't gunners just be forced hold their fire if there's a friendly blocking their target? The attitudes on (and approach to) preventing team-killing seem very schizophrenic.
*sam* Posted Jan 7, 2009, 11:28 pm	Quote: But nothing stops you from targetting something more distant, and gunning them down. That would be much harder to manage, as well as being impossible to identify as a 'dodgy action'. Therefore not a problem, I think. Quote: Why can't gunners just be forced hold their fire if there's a friendly blocking their target? That would stop accidental friendly fire. In fact it would therefore be a move towards the Mario game Marrkos is worried about  Quote: The attitudes on (and approach to) preventing team-killing seem very schizophrenic. Why do you say that? Pvp is fine, team-killing isn't. One reason it isn't is that teamkilling can be done in a non-CR-balanced way (and is therefore very unfair, essentially an exploit to allow you to be sure of winning when you're not brave enough to fight when the odds are even), and also it's liable to cause great aggravation and ruin the fun of arena combats, scouts etc.
Shark Posted Jan 7, 2009, 11:44 pm	Victor said: *sam* said: * I have plugged a loophole in the 'no team killing' rule – now, you cannot target or fire at an inanimate object (terrain, building, etc.) if it's less than 10m from a team-mate. But nothing stops you from targetting something more distant, and gunning them down. Why can't gunners just be forced hold their fire if there's a friendly blocking their target? The attitudes on (and approach to) preventing team-killing seem very schizophrenic. Dude, think about it.... It's easy to maneuver your own vehicle out of the LoS of you and an enemy vehicle. Honestly if someone managed to team kill you like that you deserve it. The terrain thing is MUCH harder to avoid and would require random movement on the part of the "hunted" if you will. Even with random movement eventually it would be guessed close enough to land a hit, rinse repeat untill dead. Some of the blast radius weapons could even hit regardless. The cost of not allowing team ram damage outweigh the realism/immersion factor etc, also suspect players could be avoided well enough to not suffer serious injury. If you suspect someone might come after you with a ram you can move in the same direction as them and avoid serious damage. (The heavy hitting ram cars that could wreck your junk tend to not be the fastest btw.) The only way you are gonna get tk'd by a ram is if it is an accident or you get blind sided by someone you didn't expect hehe...... There is nothing scizo about this update its very well thought out and this is coming from one of what I assume are a small handful of players that "think about things of this nature and how they could be carried out  " This is a VERY good update to avoid team killing Sam and I see the wisdom in it.
Shark Posted Jan 7, 2009, 11:47 pm	Double post but did you seriously remove the mortar fix? Jeez way to cave in yet again and sacrifice game design.
Lord Foul Posted Jan 8, 2009, 1:44 am	Shark said: Double post but did you seriously remove the mortar fix? Jeez way to cave in yet again and sacrifice game design. Something would have to be broken for a "fix" to be put in. You had your chance to prove to us they were broken, give it up shark.
Shark Posted Jan 8, 2009, 2:24 am	Lord Foul said: Shark said: Double post but did you seriously remove the mortar fix? Jeez way to cave in yet again and sacrifice game design. Something would have to be broken for a "fix" to be put in. You had your chance to prove to us they were broken, give it up shark. Yeah the way damage is implemented currently is broken. There was a fix, the "community" whines and moans about it because it removes an overpowered feature.
Lord Foul Posted Jan 8, 2009, 2:39 am	Shark said: Lord Foul said: Shark said: Double post but did you seriously remove the mortar fix? Jeez way to cave in yet again and sacrifice game design. Something would have to be broken for a "fix" to be put in. You had your chance to prove to us they were broken, give it up shark. Yeah the way damage is implemented currently is broken. There was a fix, the "community" whines and moans about it because it removes an overpowered feature. Unfortunately if people don't understand how something is meant to work they jump to the conclusion it's broken. Then they as you say whine and moan for a fix or more realism, but find out it's working in a realistic way once a few facts are obtained.
Mad Mike Posted Jan 8, 2009, 2:41 am	was going to chime in here but this discussion about mortars has gone in enough circles
*Longo* Posted Jan 8, 2009, 4:33 am	Shark said: Lord Foul said: Shark said: Double post but did you seriously remove the mortar fix? Jeez way to cave in yet again and sacrifice game design. Something would have to be broken for a "fix" to be put in. You had your chance to prove to us they were broken, give it up shark. Yeah the way damage is implemented currently is broken. There was a fix, the "community" whines and moans about it because it removes an overpowered feature. Who says its broken? I could be wrong, but I think you are the only person who thinks this? Next topic.
Kime Dennory Posted Jan 8, 2009, 7:26 am	It's amusing actually... the more accurate my ballistics gals get with their CGLs, the less likely I am to actually do much good with them. The other day, I hit a Marauder with an entire clip of CGLs, and they actually hit the car eight out of the ten shots. (A lot of that was luck, but they are getting VERY good... dex in the 90s, skill over 100, with LOS). Since most of the time CGLs don't impact the top armor (for whatever reason), the damage was pretty much spread out on all four sides of the pickup. If I'd continued to hit the pickup with the CGL, I may well have been able to land an entire second clip on top of the thing and still not pierce the armor. And the explosions certainly don't seem to affect handling much. Compare this to other weapons of the same size... say, a rocket launcher. Take away bottom shots from mortars, and if they are as unlikely to get top shots as CGLs are (I don't know, I haven't kept track) then I suspect that mortars become essentially useless. -KD