*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:06 am	This is a big patch, covering about a months' work. The most substantial additions are creatures, footsquads, and some new character models. Footsquads When you lose a combat in the wilderness, you will no longer be at the mercy of a 'dice roll' to determine which characters survive. What now happens is your characters form a 'footsquad' which starts to walk to their destination. The journey is 10 times slower than driving, and you are likely to get a small number of encounters with creatures (see below). There are other types of encounters that footsquads will have when I get time to implement them - e.g. versus on-foot bandits/mutants. Footsquad combats are launched from your gang's 'Squads' page. (Note: anyone with a character in the footsquad can launch the combats, there is no designated 'squad owner'). Note that footsquad characters get sick from radiation poisoning (which is affected by the current aurora) and sunstroke when they have to walk home. Stronger characters are more resistant. Characters in cars are not affected by the aurora at all. Creatures: I have implemented the first 12 types of creatures (this includes some variants, e.g. giant beetles take the form of Desert, Fire, and Green Beetles). Creatures can vary quite a lot in size as well as mutation level (e.g. oversized heads, teeth etc.) and both size and mutations modify the characteristics of the creatures such as speed, damage, health, courage, and poisonousness (where appropriate). I have divided Evan up into regions (currently this is: the Northern Desert, the Northern Farmland, the Elmsfield Lakes, the Badlands, the Lava Lands, the Broken Lands.) Each region has different populations of creatures - e.g. water-loving creatures will turn up near Elms and Badlands but not in the desert or lava regions. Each region also tends to produce different levels of mutations (the crocs near Badlands will turn out to be pretty fearsome opponents due to their size, the ones at Elms less so). Behind-the-scenes I am modelling creature population dynamics in each region, which basically fluctuate based on the time of the year, the strength of the aurora, and whether they have been winning/losing many battles recently. You'll tend to meet larger groups of creatures when their populations are high. Characters: A bunch of new character models are being added, bringing the total you can pick from up to 25. Characters can now kick each other and creatures. This is generally only recommended once the ammo has run out. Strength increases the damage done. I also have a ‘swing’ animation so will be adding swords and axes soon. These things are all required since things tend to get a bit melee-ish with creatures around. Note that submitting a ‘kick’ or ‘swing’ order will automatically remove any gunfiring orders for the character. Characters can now give inventory items to other nearby characters (including any character in the same car). This is done from the character ‘Manage’ window (which has been graphically overhauled too). Smaller Changes: * Fixed the firing arcs so that they use lines rather than solid polygons which block visibility. I also fixed the calculation error so that they correctly match what you can actually target in the game. * I also changed it so a targeted vehicle has a circle around it rather than an ugly box. * Implemented rules changes to races and deathraces. Now, if you try to drive around the circuit the wrong way your car’s engine will lose power. In a deathrace, you will only be able to fire targeted weapons at enemies who are within one checkpoint of you (so you can’t for example sit at the starting grid and kill people as they complete their first lap.. not that anyone would try anything so dastardly LOL). * Nitro boosters now cause dirty engines but don’t actually damage them: the engine power-loss effect lasts only until the end of the event. * Improved icons in the looting screen. Desolatordan is currently working on a proper graphical overhaul of looting.
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:13 am	Hooray for Sam ! I forsee increased footwear sales across Evan . COCO
*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:17 am	Looking good, might have to bring a crappy guy for a scout and dump him to see it.
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:27 am	When I'm finished the patching I'm going to run some tests, make sure it's all working ok.
*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:29 am	Sweet can i come along?
*Tinker* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:50 am	Thanks Sam for all the hard work, it's been a long time coming, can't wait to go on safari!
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2008, 11:00 am	sign me up as a foot soldier of the apocalypse sir, excellent update, sam you are a star
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 12:03 pm	We just ran some tests. There are a few small bugs that need fixing (nothing too serious), so my advice is hold off on your footsquad events until I get them fixed later. Don't let this man's appearance fool you. I saw him "accidently" shooting a team-mate in the back!
Mad Mike Posted Nov 11, 2008, 12:20 pm	"if you try to drive around the circuit the wrong way your car’s engine will lose power." i think this could be done better. anyone driving backwards gets shot at by the crowd for being a coward and loses all fame instantly. would look better then just losing power and would explain the spectators hate people that drive backwards in an event. same for those that sit and wait for other people to come around the track. make it look like the people and fans of deathracing are punishing the losers that use this tactic. the instant lose of fame and quite possibly lose gang members that do not want to be part of a loser gang....
lordbam Posted Nov 11, 2008, 12:25 pm	Mad Mike said: "if you try to drive around the circuit the wrong way your car’s engine will lose power." i think this could be done better.  anyone driving backwards gets shot at by the crowd for being a coward and loses all fame instantly.  would look better then just losing power and would explain the spectators hate people that drive backwards in an event. same for those that sit and wait for other people to come around the track.  make it look like the people and fans of deathracing are punishing the losers that use this tactic.  the instant lose of fame and quite possibly lose gang members that do not want to be part of a loser gang.... I like your solution better then the "lose power" option.
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 12:39 pm	Quote: I like your solution better then the "lose power" option. The problem here is one of implementation effort.. we don't have a crowd at the moment. The polygon count added by a large bunch of character models would also be unmanageable.
*Ayjona* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 1:08 pm	I was wondering why we haven't seen any dev activity lately... turns out devs lead a secret, hidden life away from the prying eyes of players! Really great patch! It gives pedestrians a purpose other than car combat flavour. I know it would be kind of brutal, but might we even see footsquads versus vehicular opponents eventually? It should only happen very rarely, and only in very bad places, since it would practially void our chances of getting back home safely otherwise But it would be brutal in the kind of way that suits Darkwind's theme, and leave skilled players with some interesting options (such as being beaten, starting the walk back home, and then suddenly finding yourslef in possession of a car once again... Don't laugh, peds can beats car. I've seen it happen... Once ).
*Longo* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 1:14 pm	Mad Mike said: "if you try to drive around the circuit the wrong way your car’s engine will lose power." i think this could be done better.  anyone driving backwards gets shot at by the crowd for being a coward and loses all fame instantly.  would look better then just losing power and would explain the spectators hate people that drive backwards in an event. same for those that sit and wait for other people to come around the track.  make it look like the people and fans of deathracing are punishing the losers that use this tactic.  the instant lose of fame and quite possibly lose gang members that do not want to be part of a loser gang.... Once in a while, the crowd might like these tactics.... what would happen then?
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 2:47 pm	Ayjona said: I know it would be kind of brutal, but might we even see footsquads versus vehicular opponents eventually? I was thinking that too, but I've had a ped take out TWO cars after losing his own car, but as soon as they demo, they "escape" because there's no non-demo'd friendly cars nearby. So, they could "win" the right to continue walking, but wouldn't be able to score a car to drive home probably... JL
simonmaxhill Posted Nov 11, 2008, 3:29 pm	Oh man, the "walking home encounter" is going to make my Firelight "initiation" scouts ten times more interesting.
simonmaxhill Posted Nov 11, 2008, 4:16 pm	Just tried walking home in the wilderness, but instead of a footsquad, my dude just walked right back to FL. Returned immediately. Is the footsquad feature temporarily on hold, pending testing?
4saken Posted Nov 11, 2008, 4:20 pm	any chance we could see a few of these critters in regular combats, maybe as sortof mobile obstacles? on the bright side i would imagine that the more cars are fighting the less of chance there would be any critters nearby (critters tend to avoid big confrontations) but with just a few cars there might be a couple that are interested and might try to pick off a few peds. in other words, they would only be there when there's polygons to spare. also: can more than one ped help to carry a large item, such as an HMG clip, to move it between cars? is that functionality on the way? i'm not too big on the engine decrease in a fight. it seems artificial and also there have been multiple lap deathraces where i have tried to get shots on people lapping me hoping to take them out so i can limp to victory (on the figure 8 style tracks where you only need to be half a lap down). still not sure of an adequate fix, but i guess this will help for now.
darthspanky Posted Nov 11, 2008, 4:23 pm	could ya add some lasers and or hcs on tracks that shoot at players driving backwards instead? and or a fl race track in fl that driving backwards and teamkilling is encouraged.
*Lugal* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:31 pm	Awesome patch Sam!  Can't wait to get home and check everything out! When can we see mutie gangs riding beetles instead of cars?  (just kidding... or am I?) Ayjona said: Don't laugh, peds can beats car. I've seen it happen... Once ). I've done it!  Had a multi-player scout a while back, and the fight dragged on and on.  We had disabled cars and ammo-less guns - my squad mates were going from car to car looking for anything still working.  My driver hid behind her car and sniped the last couple pirate cars until they gave up.
4saken Posted Nov 11, 2008, 6:19 pm	also would it be possible to let us re-chose character icons now that we have the new models to chose from?
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 6:52 pm	Quote: Just tried walking home in the wilderness, but instead of a footsquad, my dude just walked right back to FL. Returned immediately. Is the footsquad feature temporarily on hold, pending testing? No, but one of the minor bugs is setting the characters back to town while they're still tavelling. I'm going thru my list of bugs uncovered from the earlier tests now. You probably have a footsquad with your characters in simon if you check you gang's squads page? Quote: any chance we could see a few of these critters in regular combats, maybe as sortof mobile obstacles? on the bright side i would imagine that the more cars are fighting the less of chance there would be any critters nearby (critters tend to avoid big confrontations) but with just a few cars there might be a couple that are interested and might try to pick off a few peds That's the plan, yep. You'll see them hanging around in the distance waiting to scavenge the remains and/or pick off stray peds. Only the biggest, most mutated ones will ever attack a car. Quote: might we even see footsquads versus vehicular opponents eventually? It should only happen very rarely, and only in very bad places, since it would practially void our chances of getting back home safely otherwise But it would be brutal in the kind of way that suits Darkwind's theme Ye, I was planning that too.. very rare, as you say Ayjona.
Nojj Posted Nov 11, 2008, 7:25 pm	/me invests in Ped weapons.
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 7:50 pm	I should probably make some of the ped weapons less rare?
*Tinker* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 8:05 pm	*sam* said: I should probably make some of the ped weapons less rare? I'm guessing the suply will dry-up pretty fast. I guess right now it's pretty easy to escape bugs with a rifle on another topic, is it possible to create a foot squad now?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2008, 8:29 pm	oh its dried up all ready. no ped weapons in somerset.elms and gateway
simonmaxhill Posted Nov 11, 2008, 8:32 pm	Aaaah, I see the issue: footsquads are in their own category, below all the car squads. There I am. Just hit "next encounter" and am looking forwards to being devoured.
4saken Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:05 pm	Grograt said: oh its dried up all ready. no ped weapons in somerset.elms and gateway someone still has shotguns up for $450. also i'm sure that plenty of weapons will flood in now for "a price".
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:10 pm	OK, I have fixed the main bugs discovered in the tests earlier today. Tinker: when you say form a footsquad, do you mean make one and intentionally walk out into the wilderness rather than drive?
*Tinker* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:12 pm	yep, but i guess i misunderstood
Nojj Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:14 pm	How awesome would it be to form a Foot Squad and scavenge wreckage and ruins in the wilderness? Maybe I've been playing too much Fallout.
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:28 pm	At the risk of radiation sickness? JL
*sam* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:33 pm	Yeah, I'm planning to have pedestrian missions in the ruins type things nojj.
*Tinker* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 9:41 pm	cool can we get anti-radiation blankets? the silvery type
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:01 pm	I want a canary in a cage
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:02 pm	I can see you on a bike now - "what's a little fallout, eh?" JL
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:08 pm	itll have to catch me on my z900 first yeeehaaaa
Lord Foul Posted Nov 12, 2008, 1:04 am	Quote: In a deathrace, you will only be able to fire targeted weapons at enemies who are within one checkpoint of you (so you can’t for example sit at the starting grid and kill people as they complete their first lap.. not that anyone would try anything so dastardly LOL). I’m reading this part and different situations keep popping in my head about what can occur with these new race rules. So if someone is more than one checkpoint away from me in a deathrace I can not target/shoot at that npc/player. Which means if an npc or player shoots or knocks me aside early on and manages to speed ahead one lap on me before my car recovers and can get back into the race, the npc/player can come by me and he can’t shoot me again and I can not get revenge on him and stop him from winning/placing well in the DR. I’m effectively out of the DR and it turns into just a race and all my weapons are useless unless other npc slows down or get injured enough so I can get within 1 checkpoint. This could also work in favor of the player too as he can no longer be targeted/shot at by any npcs/players that he passes if he is a lap ahead of them. I did not approve of Alo’s tactics, but I do not like these new rules much as well. I have used the sit and wait tactics on npcs before in DR as they have uber reflexes and can pull off some impossible moves and lose nothing if they lose the race or their gang character dies. I have everything to lose and would use every tactic I could to get an edge and it did not always work. Now in my opinion it’s turned into a care bear deathrace where everyone has to play fair and can’t shoot anything unless you are at the same pace as that player/npc.
Marrkos Posted Nov 12, 2008, 2:56 am	Lord Foul said: but I do not like these new rules much ... Now in my opinion it’s turned into a care bear deathrace where everyone has to play fair and can’t shoot anything unless you are at the same pace as that player/npc. I have to agree.  This seems too restrictive. The real issue is that one can't (or shouldn't?) solve human interaction issues with technology.  The tactic this change is attempting to prevent is a human issue, not a technological issue. If people don't like player X's tactics then they will choose not to play with player X (this is already happening to a certain degree). What would be handy (and would support this 'human solution', IMO) would be to allow custom event creators to deny or remove participants (similar to how it can be done in squads).  So, if player A is hosting a race, and player X is notorious for driving around the track in the wrong direction, player A could remove player X's entry prior to the event starting. There are other human-interaction issues with this capability, but I think they are also human issues not technology issues.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Nov 12, 2008, 3:28 am	While I was one of the 'griefers' about some other players actions, I have to agree that this type of restriction is leading in the wrong direction. Quote: So if someone is more than one checkpoint away from me in a deathrace I can not target/shoot at that npc/player. Which means if an npc or player shoots or knocks me aside early on and manages to speed ahead one lap on me before my car recovers and can get back into the race, the npc/player can come by me and he can’t shoot me again and I can not get revenge on him and stop him from winning/placing well in the DR. I’m effectively out of the DR and it turns into just a race and all my weapons are useless unless other npc slows down or get injured enough so I can get within 1 checkpoint. This could also work in favor of the player too as he can no longer be targeted/shot at by any npcs/players that he passes if he is a lap ahead of them. This is a blatantly obvious loophole to be expolited imho. Quote: I did not approve of Alo’s tactics, but I do not like these new rules much as well. I have used the sit and wait tactics on npcs before in DR as they have uber reflexes and can pull off some impossible moves and lose nothing if they lose the race or their gang character dies. I have everything to lose and would use every tactic I could to get an edge and it did not always work. Now in my opinion it’s turned into a care bear deathrace where everyone has to play fair and can’t shoot anything unless you are at the same pace as that player/npc. I have used them (Alo's tactics) too....To an extent... But, I kept moving behind the pack waiting for others to kill themselves or others off. Can we use the vehicles speed as an indicator of 'questionable' tactics? If they (the questionable party) is moving less than 30mph and is MORE than 1 checkpoint from another (the first place entrant) then the newly implemented rules apply. The offending (questionable player) guns are disabled and he will get a notice that he will be auto-resigned in "X-turns" unless his speed is increased. The guns will be re-enabled once they get within 1 checkpoint of the current leader. He wont have guns but he WILL be a racer until he gets close enough! Don't wanna deathrace with the pack?......FINE....No guns till you catch up!
*Tinker* Posted Nov 12, 2008, 3:28 am	Marrkos said: What would be handy (and would support this 'human solution', IMO) would be to allow custom event creators to deny or remove participants (similar to how it can be done in squads).  So, if player A is hosting a race, and player X is notorious for driving around the track in the wrong direction, player A could remove player X's entry prior to the event starting. sounds complicated.... let's just let Hlasers shoot the bastards indiscriminately, make it  real scary death races
*Fourhand* Posted Nov 12, 2008, 4:02 am	Quote: * Nitro boosters now cause dirty engines but don’t actually damage them: the engine power-loss effect lasts only until the end of the event. Is this guaranteed or is there a chance that the nitro will fire and not cause any ill effects.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Nov 12, 2008, 5:47 am	*Fourhand* said: Quote: * Nitro boosters now cause dirty engines but don’t actually damage them: the engine power-loss effect lasts only until the end of the event. Is this guaranteed or is there a chance that the nitro will fire and not cause any ill effects. GOOD question considering the combustibility of N2O mixed with an internal combustion engine!..... Have you ever seen a Funnycars' blower explode? Granted, we are not running funnycars... Do a Google search on "Nitrous Explosions" See for yourself! Nitro equipped cars NEED Mechs! High Level mechs! If you don't have them to install it correctly, ...BOOM! (Maybe camps are the only place to install them in your high end 'Pro Racing cars'!) Nitro induced win If you have a Driver/Mech driving the car..... well as long as the mech is higher than the driver, no problems....just a dirty engine...fixable! If the driver is higher than the mech..... Possible meltdown of your powerplant or detonation of the NO2 giving the occupants some time in the hospital possibly. The Specialism 'jumpstart' should be decreased from the advantage it has now until an NO2 compromise can be agreed upon. You want a jumpstart?......Use NO2!....You want more of a lead? multi-skill a driver/mech till your engines dont explode!
Hula Posted Nov 12, 2008, 7:15 am	Tinker said: Marrkos said: What would be handy (and would support this 'human solution', IMO) would be to allow custom event creators to deny or remove participants (similar to how it can be done in squads).  So, if player A is hosting a race, and player X is notorious for driving around the track in the wrong direction, player A could remove player X's entry prior to the event starting. sounds complicated.... let's just let Hlasers shoot the bastards indiscriminately, make it  real scary death races I'm down with that.
4saken Posted Nov 12, 2008, 8:42 am	Marrkos said: The real issue is that one can't (or shouldn't?) solve human interaction issues with technology.  The tactic this change is attempting to prevent is a human issue, not a technological issue. If people don't like player X's tactics then they will choose not to play with player X (this is already happening to a certain degree). normally i would agree but the problem here is that in this case if you use the tactic and no one plays with you then you get to use the tactic against NPCs, thus it actually gets easier to use the exploit.
Marrkos Posted Nov 12, 2008, 2:50 pm	4saken said: normally i would agree but the problem here is that in this case if you use the tactic and no one plays with you then you get to use the tactic against NPCs, thus it actually gets easier to use the exploit. Does anybody really care if player's are being wankers to NPCs? There are already 'unstoppable' exploits against NPCs (points padding, and whatnot) in the standard events, this would just be for the custom stuff. Obviously, the 'sanctioned' custom events like the All Hallow's Eve stuff probably couldn't boot players, but player-hosted events could have that option.
*sam* Posted Nov 12, 2008, 5:22 pm	Quote: Obviously, the 'sanctioned' custom events like the All Hallow's Eve stuff probably couldn't boot players, but player-hosted events could have that option. player hosted events have passwords
darthspanky Posted Nov 12, 2008, 10:41 pm	i liked my suggestion earlier about this add weapons on the race tracks like a laser or hcr and create rules for each event which can vary from track to track. if the rules are broken the weapons fire at the offenders, this will kill the offender and make the others smile. hehe he was dead before he even got close enoupg to try to headon kamakazi? or got shot up waiting for the others at the finish line. could even do events which encourage driving backwards lol id love to see the npc try it hehe
Lord Foul Posted Nov 13, 2008, 12:03 am	Would it be possible to have it both ways? Have races spawn as “Restricted” and “Unrestricted” So if a player wanted to play in care bear version he/she would look for the “Restricted” Deathraces in the lobby that spawn and if a player wanted to play an anything goes Deathrace he/she would look for an “Unrestricted” deathrace in the lobby.
*Lugal* Posted Nov 13, 2008, 12:52 am	Lord Foul said: So if a player wanted to play in care bear version he/she would look for the “Restricted” Deathraces Carebear Deathraces?  Isn't that a bit of a contradiction in terms?  Having variants is not a bad idea, but it would dilute the event diary.  I think Sam knows this approach isn't perfect, but it's the best that's been brought up so far in terms of a single automated mechanism that can be applied to all Deathraces that will restrict griefing practices.  I support the update - until something better is suggested - because it fasciliates what I see as the intended gameplay: people with guns racing each other.  Killing off your enemies without actually driving around is a better tactic, sure, but it's not people with guns racing each other.  The Arena Combats are there as a gameplay device for anything goes battles.  Races are there for straight forward races. Otherwise why not argue for the ability to park artillery vehicles on the sidelines and shell the other drivers?  EDIT: Clarity (I hope)
Bytten Posted Nov 13, 2008, 6:44 am	How about a rule that a car that is stopped for more than X turns is deemed to have resigned by default? You could still theoretically "cheat" by simply going very slowly, but a car with a damaged engine would do likewise...
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Nov 13, 2008, 6:46 am	Bytten said: How about a rule that a car that is stopped for more than X turns is deemed to have resigned by default? You could still theoretically "cheat" by simply going very slowly, but a car with a damaged engine would do likewise... I posted something like that earlier in this post.. Quote: I have used them (Alo's tactics) too....To an extent... But, I kept moving behind the pack waiting for others to kill themselves or others off. Can we use the vehicles speed as an indicator of 'questionable' tactics? If they (the questionable party) is moving less than 30mph and is MORE than 1 checkpoint from another (the first place entrant) then the newly implemented rules apply. The offending (questionable player) guns are disabled and he will get a notice that he will be auto-resigned in "X-turns" unless his speed is increased. The guns will be re-enabled once they get within 1 checkpoint of the current leader. He wont have guns but he WILL be a racer until he gets close enough! Don't wanna deathrace with the pack?......FINE....No guns till you catch up! Good idea!
*Fourhand* Posted Nov 13, 2008, 1:44 pm	Pretty good suggestion but replace leader with closest competitor. Also. Is the dirty engine thing guaranteed to happen or will it be like before where you can sometimes fire a nitro and have no ill effects.
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 13, 2008, 3:23 pm	My understanding is that the nitro will work the same as it always has in game, but that *AFTER* the event the damage is gone. So, no better or worse chance, it's just not PERMANENT damage. JL
*sam* Posted Nov 13, 2008, 3:26 pm	yep, exactly as JL says
WolfEater Posted Nov 20, 2008, 11:46 pm	HMM what about make sertane place's at the truck that from there u'r weapon's activaded or time weapon activasion, in DR like in the rally SS Truck from the 180 degrre turn to the second 180 turn weapon activated. or 20 second weapon activaded then agin for 10 second's a disabled and then agin activated. something like that
*Longo* Posted Nov 25, 2008, 10:24 pm	Sam- The Deathrace Tweak whereas you cant shoot an opponent further than one checkpoint away really messes things up in Alo's Gateway figure 8 track. Pweelg and I did a Pro DR here, and after the loop, we encountered an NPC head on (he had fallen a bit behind), and we couldnt shoot him. Could you alleviate this rule just for this track? Its one of my favorite tracks! -Longo
pweelg Posted Nov 25, 2008, 10:29 pm	Agreed this and the Somerset Rally circuit....well thats one of theaspects of these tracks. Actually felt a bit like a pacisifist DR, i understand why it was put in place but i don't think i like it.
*sam* Posted Nov 26, 2008, 8:30 am	I could make the rule two checkpoints rather than one?
*Longo* Posted Nov 26, 2008, 8:48 am	I dont think this would help on this track Sam. Its a figure 8. In our instance, an NPC fell behind, and with perfect timing, he regained his composure and started the race back up, meeting us right at the intersection. He couldnt shoot us, we couldnt shoot him. It was pretty silly, we just drove past him. I guess you would have had to observe it to get the full effect. All this considering I have no clue how many checkpoinst or where they are on this map hehe
*sam* Posted Nov 26, 2008, 9:22 am	Quote: All this considering I have no clue how many checkpoinst or where they are on this map hehe I'll need to check alo's map again, but generally there's only about 5 or 6 checkpoints on the entire track, so upping the margin to 2 would make a significant difference and would definitely fix the issue on the SS rally circuit.
pweelg Posted Nov 26, 2008, 8:23 pm	Also as a side note, the vehicle in question was fitted with spikes, now if he had hit us we would have taken damage and not be able to respond in kind. Also does this mean if this thing was meant to stop greifing, it could still be done in a ram car ?
Dr Mathias Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:04 am	I'd just like to pipe in on this issue... I'd vote to revert back to the way deathraces were conducted in the past. The current fix seems really unrealistic, although I acknowledge it as a legitimate attempt to address a problem. The repercussions of the change don't outweigh the positives IMO. Here's my attempt to develop a satisfying way to address the issue realistically and at the same time correct the problem of driving against the flow... Personally I can see the crowd (not visible of course, but presumed to be attending) firing rifles and crossbows (and lots of 'em) at a person driving reverse or camping. It is a "race" afterall... but how would a computer tell the difference between a legit car limping along and an A-hole player? How would it know a player is stopped legitimately, or moving slow in order to perform a dastardly deed? I think it could be tied to engine and chassis health... a damaged car would of course limp along, or even stop so that a driver could recover. But there would be no reason (in the crowd's eyes, I imagine) for a car in good condition to stop in place, even to ambush cars coming around, RACING, in a legitimate manner. The crowd should/could/would open fire!!! Yeah camping/reversing direction/ turing to fire at oncomers  is a tactic, but its not in the spirit of the very sport this entire game is based upon. Barring a code or rules change, what needs to happen is an in-game, pc community reaction to the problem players. The ones I have in mind are pretty much self made pariahs anyway, and thats fine, but why can't we come together and make sure they never, ever win a town event? We know who will turn around and kill everyone, but why can't we pull together and change the course of history?
Marrkos Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:25 am	What that guy above me said. Twice.
darthspanky Posted Nov 27, 2008, 8:34 am	as long as we get to rgm the crowds in return for them taking shots at us pirahas i like it hehe. but id hate to see the crowd at fl arena armed lol thed kill everyone then start a riot
*sam* Posted Nov 27, 2008, 10:08 am	Quote: does this mean if this thing was meant to stop greifing, it could still be done in a ram car ? No, you lose engine power if you drive backwards around a circuit. I don't like the idea of the crowd firing at people. That's much more open to mistakes on the part of the server, and I can just imagine the complaints when people are 'unfairly' killed by the crowd. I'll change the rule so it uses 2 checkpoints-distance rather than 1. I'm convinced it's a better solution than others that have been suggested.
*Lugal* Posted Nov 27, 2008, 6:18 pm	What if you just coded the crowd to shoot at anyone with ARL tags?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 27, 2008, 7:32 pm	**** sly giggle ****
pweelg Posted Nov 27, 2008, 9:05 pm	*sam* said: Quote: does this mean if this thing was meant to stop greifing, it could still be done in a ram car ? No, you lose engine power if you drive backwards around a circuit. I don't like the idea of the crowd firing at people. That's much more open to mistakes on the part of the server, and I can just imagine the complaints when people are 'unfairly' killed by the crowd. I'll change the rule so it uses 2 checkpoints-distance rather than 1. I'm convinced it's a better solution than others that have been suggested. but the point is Sam on these tracks you dont need to drive backwards, you can wait where the track crosses back on itself and well if you were a serious greifer you could just latch on to someone as they come past and keep ramming them and they couldn't respond....or am i missing something ? while 2 checkpoints will work on somerset rally it needs to be checked on all tracks
Bytten Posted Nov 28, 2008, 5:59 pm	I've been following this thread with some interest and I like the various ideas that have been expressed - though they vary in practicality! The fundamental problem comes back to the old AI/human split. Things that are bloody obvious to us are very hard for computers to spot, such as the difference between a car deliberately hanging back and a car struggling with some handicap. Not all handicaps are obvious - a damaged engine is easy to recognise, but what about a new player with poor driving ability? What about one of those car/wall arguments that seem to happen every race? And what if my car is a custom job entering a professional race, and is simply too heavy to build up speed? There are countless scenarios. The more complex the system, the more loopholes. I think artificially limiting such tactics will not help. There are always going to be loopholes that can be exploited, and there will always be "false positives" in which a player is penalised through no fault of their own. How about a simple reporting option? If you spot a player behaving badly, you can report them. One or two reports won't be a problem, but repeated reports would suggest foul play. Of course, this system itself is rife for exploitation - some form of independent adjudication is required. And there's very little hope of NPC races being scanned this way. Ultimately, my concern is that attempting to block cheating tactics like this will limit and damage the game itself. It would be better if we can retain as much freedom as possible.
Lord Foul Posted Jan 5, 2009, 7:01 am	Quote: Implemented rules changes to races and deathraces. Now, if you try to drive around the circuit the wrong way your car’s engine will lose power. In a deathrace, you will only be able to fire targeted weapons at enemies who are within one checkpoint of you (so you can’t for example sit at the starting grid and kill people as they complete their first lap.. not that anyone would try anything so dastardly LOL). Sam, can you confirm these are the only changes you made concerning deathraces? I did a deathrace and my jumpstart skills were not used in the event. I don't normally use my racer for a deathrace, but decided to give it a try and to my surprise no js skills were being activated.
*sam* Posted Jan 5, 2009, 11:27 am	Yes, jumpstart should work fine in deathraces. How do you know it didn't kick in?
Kime Dennory Posted Jan 5, 2009, 8:58 pm	What does it look like when jumpstart is 'activated'? I have a guy with jumpstart, but the NPCs still (at least the ones with 350 driving skill) seem to accelerate faster than he does. -KD
Dr Mathias Posted Jan 5, 2009, 11:43 pm	I have a lvl 3 jumpstarter, and can only see a real 'jumpstart' in maybe 1 of 3 races. Thats fine as far as I'm concerned, gives the newbs a chance to win a race.
Lord Foul Posted Jan 6, 2009, 4:44 am	*sam* said: Yes, jumpstart should work fine in deathraces. How do you know it didn't kick in? Event  44701 I accelerated at the same speed as all the other npc cars. I think this may be another bug with the Flash chassis again as I decided to watch my event and look closely at the start and here is what I saw before the event began. This may have negated my JS skill in some way. You'll notice that only the passenger side of the cars are touching the ground when the event started. Kime, you can tell by your speed when compared to the npc cars when the race starts. The higher the jumpstart skill, the faster your speed with be early on in the race. For example if we all start at 30, round one goes off and I would be at 34 and the npcs would be at 32. Round 2 I would be say at 37 and the npcs would be at 34 etc.. With all the racing I do I can tell when something is not right with my jumpstart guy. If this is another bug with the Flash chassis, it really needs to be looked at as the number of bugs this chassis has is starting to really pile up.
Lord Foul Posted Jan 6, 2009, 5:06 am	Yep thats what is was Sam, the passenger side only touching the ground for that event negated my Jumpstart skill. So it's either a fluke event that ruined the deathrace for me or it is another bug that is related to the Flash chassis. More testing with other cars on that track would have to be done to confirm. I did some testing with same stuff and when they were all touching, my jumpstart was working. See below:
*viKKing* Posted Jan 6, 2009, 6:50 am	Well, at least you can't say physics are broken.
Kime Dennory Posted Jan 6, 2009, 8:03 am	Interesting. I was just remarking earlier today that the NPCs always accelerate faster than I do. (In fact, it seems pretty reliable... they're always going two MPH faster than I am, for the first several seconds.) This is, of course, without either side having jump start. Never understood it. -KD
*sam* Posted Jan 6, 2009, 9:41 am	Quote: I was just remarking earlier today that the NPCs always accelerate faster than I do. Did you check their driving skills?