Rentals out of reach of new players?, Or do you know better?
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 2, 2008, 4:21 pm |
From conversations I have had in the lobby, the cost of a rental rises with money spent on recruitment. Of all the players, those most likely to be doing a big chunk of recruiting are new players - this means that rentals can very quickly escape beyond their meagre financial resources which seems contrary, in part at least, to their purpose.
Perhaps it may be better to fix the price at a certain level for a determined amount of wilderness events (so as not to penalise the casual player)? Or in the alternative make it clear to new players that doing lots of recruiting will affect the rental price greatly. Otherwise you run the risk of getting players hooked and then turning them off. |
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Kime Dennory Posted Oct 2, 2008, 6:10 pm |
Seconded. I have given thousands of dollars to new players, first to let them recruit a few guys after they killed their initial three in a combat or deathrace, and then to let them afford to actually rent a car once it costs $15k. It does get money out of the economy, I guess, but it doesn't seem like quite the right way of doing so to me...
-KD |
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anrkii Posted Oct 3, 2008, 2:30 am |
3 days after I started playing the game, rentals jumped up to 17k
so now Im flat broke, dont own any cars , and I cant afford any more rentals. in fact im way worse off then when I started playing. and I really hate bumming money off of other players. So Im expected to grind server events for two days to afford one rental? also, the cost of the rental is more than the haul I get for successful missions at my play level. I truly dont understand how players get ahead in this game. |
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t0rp0r Posted Oct 3, 2008, 3:49 am |
Hmm, i just confirmed - rental cost $9,800, then I went and recruited 3 gangers and it jumped to $12,800. This could be a problem for new players who go through gangers so quickly. 
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 4:16 am |
Perseverance. :-) Nothing happens so fast that you feel like you didn't earn it... Me, I'm happy I couldn't "turn a profit" right away - it made me be smarter with my money & scouting, plus it "made" me do town events, which is a great way to learn the mechanics of the game. JL |
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anrkii Posted Oct 3, 2008, 5:49 am |
im not trying to turn a profit right away.
17k for a rental is too high. its the same cost or even greater than the loot I get for noob scout runs. So I have to grind server events FOR DAYS to afford one scout rental that doesnt even payoff the rental fee half the time. I dont understand the criteria for hiking the rentals up, I can understand jacking it up if you ditch the rental car every time, but its not. Every time you spend money to hire guys, the rental goes up. in other words, Im not doing very well, so the game is going out of its way to make things even harder. |
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Marrkos Posted Oct 3, 2008, 6:34 am |
I'm assuming by 'server events' you mean in-town events. I'm not sure why you think doing in-town events is 'grinding'. It would seem by your use of the word that repeatedly doing wilderness events would be grinding as well. But doing events, be they in-town or wilderness is the game.
You are doing well enough to be able to pay for new members. Dexter sees that and makes the determination that you can therefore afford to pay more for rentals. If you were really down on your luck you wouldn't be spending a grand to recruit. You've been a member for less than a week, done about 6 in-town events, moved people to one of the Southern outposts, and started solo scouting (with mixed but moderately predictable results). To be blunt about it, you seem like you might be rushing things a bit. No small part of this game is gang management (some of its roots are in a soccer/football team management game), and that means keeping them healthy, training them using the centres and the in-town events, and not going broke. But, that's just my opinion. 
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*Longo* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 6:56 am |
Sounds to me like rentals should be nerfed....new guy having issues starting out...nuff said | ||||
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Six Gun Jack Posted Oct 3, 2008, 9:00 am |
wow you guys are sure harsh on the new guy. All he is saying is the price of rentals has jumped way up for him without making much in game sense.
As I tried to before I will try again to defend new players. The cost change on rentals and the lowered sale price of loot cars only hurts new players, as I said before it was implemented, I will say again now. I dont think the vets understand how crushing the COMBONATION of the two is to someone starting out. I just dont understand why the harsh changes and treatment of new players ? dont we want new players ? Now its a matter of they have to rely on donations from people which is like begging, I wouldn't like it either. Its hard to be excited about only doing in town events when you see the lobby chat full of people going on scouts, and getting invited to scouts, and you are left out. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 10:23 am |
The price of rentals is based on your food+water+hiring cost since the most recent Friday update.
I would generally think that a new gang shouldn't be paying to hire characters, they should take 1 free every 5 days and be more careful with them. In fact I don't think anyone paying to hire is very sensible, since paid-for hiring makes getting high-quality characters far less likely. Having said all this... how about this for a compromise: I could change it so that a new gang gets their first 10 characters free..? |
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Hula Posted Oct 3, 2008, 11:22 am |
take it to the player council sam, don't worry yerself... 
though I would (and have) said before that established players shouldnt have the rental option.... (as a reasonably inactive player - been on twice this week) with a fleet of cars, and almost half a million dollars - why the hell should I have the option to rent? ahh yes, its because i dont play 24/7 and rental's based on fame/rep or somesuch... |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 11:23 am |
The reason I started this suggestion, was because it seemed to me, that things had changed an awful lot for new players compared to when I started playing in earnest not so long ago.
Given this, I was very wary of tranposing my experiences, and it may be just my point of view, but DW seems less forgiving of new player poor choices (and I am sure we all made a few of those). First ten free would certainly seem to address that. |
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*Zothen* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 12:34 pm |
Maybe since youve joined, nine, but on the longer scale there where no rentals. Oh, and yes, we played up to maybe 40-50k till we bought our first own scouting car! I dont think it hurt that much. Especially cos you get 20k when you become sub, too.
The attitude of new players today is partially different - problem is they think scouting is granted - even for non-subs! Also I really disliked the fact that getting loot money was so damn easy with rentals - pay 5k and loot... maybe 10-30k! Out of range... So if you dont have the money to lease a car - save your money and buy an own car! Rentals should not be granted! |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 1:21 pm |
Zothen, I would have thought that rentals were introduced in the first place because a need was identified for them - primarily for new players. The old fame based ceiling was proving unhelpful in that is put people off participating in town events.
20k won't buy a combat worthy car, it may buy you a second hand one of a generous vet. Higher prizes go a long way to help (if you place in the event). Have you ever bought a game you are dying to play and just left it in the shrinkwrap for a week whilst everyone else is playing it? Probably not, new sub players are no different. Making 10-30k profit from loot cars from a single group scout would be the exception I would think (bar a Mike megascout maybe) - particularly as you will be only bringing one loot car home - of course remember Jake is not as generous as he once was. If a new player hires say five characters his rental cost (excluding deposit) will go up by a similar amount for the rest of the DW financial week. Regarding un-sub players I must admit to being slightly ambivalent regarding their opportunities to go scouting. There is plenty already on offer for them to get a taste, and they can always spectate a scout. Sam's response seems elegant and simple, allow them to experiment a bit with recruiting characters, perhaps maybe only 5 characters for free. Without it they could start recruiting and end up unknowingly preventing themselves from taking part in one of the aspects of the game for a while (which seems counter productive for the community and game as a whole). If I am wrong, then I am happy to be told so, hence the sub-title of the topic
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*Zothen* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 1:44 pm |
No, guess youre not wrong on this... there is a gap, so maybe youre right. Instead of offering free members why not adjust the rental price? Let it go up a bit every time you rent a car and let it go up more when you dont return the car. (I hate exploiting the rentals by leaving them in the waste). Once a certain leasing price is reached (or fame as it is now?) you cant any longer lease rentals?!
Just a sidenote: When I dont play for a few weeks my fame is low enough so I can lease rentals again. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 1:56 pm |
I hate not being able to at least suggest a solution after offering the idea that there is a problem. The main problem was in the old abuse of rentals as much as anything else, which has I believe been addressed by the overall rise in rental price in conjunction with the lowering of Jakes generosity.
Perhaps the best way of capping the use of rentals (if desired) and address the issue I have raised is to have a set fee, but limit access based upon other gang data - such as cash, number of vehicles etc. This would require a judgement call to be made, a role which the rules council would ideally suited for. |
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*Longo* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 2:15 pm |
Sam- When I started out all I did was combats and a few DRs.....I had a ton of dead doods and remember having guys at like 20% combating for me to I could win some cash to hire a new guy who was at 100%. You don't want newbs not being able to play cause they cant hire new guys. Give them 10 guys when they start a new gang...and their first 10 free. They will put them to good use .....dying and learning the game. |
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Valiance Posted Oct 3, 2008, 4:03 pm |
But stop non-subs being able to scout.
Oops. Broken record. |
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 5:39 pm |
Yea enough said, but one more thing,... It should no be dependent on hiring new characters, what kind of logic is that? I can think of a few valid reasons for paying more.. 1) you ditch/destroy the car in the wilderness, more than once a week (so your forgiven if it was accidentally destroyed, once a week) EDIT: example : if you loose 1 car one week, prices go up 20% per additional cars lost. and the next week, if you keep loosing cars, it goes up again... etc etc.., but it also goes down.. let's say.. 20% for being a competent adult driver(not loosing more than 1 car per week), .... and seniors over 25 get a discount !
2) you have a million cars ; Jake is suspicious your not going to start renting yourself. 3) You've got more than 100k in the bank ; Jake is suspicious your selling drugs (prices escalate by 20% per 100k) 4) your gang's characters' average skill is greater than .. 50 ; Jake is suspicious your not using drugs (prices escalate by 20% per 5 points greater than 50) 5) your gang's food cost (same as #4) |
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Kime Dennory Posted Oct 3, 2008, 8:09 pm |
Seems to me the fairest thing to do would be to base it on either total net worth or money in the bank. The latter is easier, the former is more reasonable.
Ditching cars or getting them destroyed isn't something that would have a big enough effect to matter. Number of cars is a little wonky: should someone with twenty salvage cars they haven't sold yet pay more than someone who only has five buzzers with heavy lasers? Average skill? If anyone in this game has an average skill greater than 30, then there's something wrong. Do you mean the average of the highest skill of each character? Or the average of all of your gangers' skills that are over 20 or something? That's really easily gamed. Gang's food costs? Well, that does provide a disincentive for new players to get money from older ones and max out their gangs, so they can get their people training as much as possible. Is that what we're going for? -KD |
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Six Gun Jack Posted Oct 3, 2008, 8:19 pm |
just a quick note to Zothen,
you are working off old info. We dont have to let our fame and rep go down anymore to rent. I can rent right now for 9200, while that poor new guy who has had gangers killed and made some bad choices (as we all did when starting) has to pay 17000 ! Thats kind of my point about it only hurting new players. But yeah I think first 10 gangers free is a good option too, at least to get them started. I know its been said the old days there were no rentals, and things were so hard... But the reality is the game has changed where scouting is more the main activity. People see the excitement in the lobby about a scout forming and of course they want to try it out, but at those kind of costs they can not unless its a perfect scout and they get two loot cars that are in very good condition or else he will not be able to even recoup the 17K. (2 loot cars means leaving the rental and losing the deposit). |
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 9:38 pm |
Hue yea good point, maybe just start at 40 averaging these 3 skills? Guns LrgG Blstc Those numbers can be chosen by the committee/advisory board But I think Option 1, returning the rental back is also a good option to add in parallel. |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 10:01 pm |
Should a brand new player jump into a scout? Shouldn't they "driving school" & "combat" & "race" first to learn the mechanics?
I agree it shouldn't be IMPOSSIBLE to rent, but I don't think the prices are out of line. JL |
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Kime Dennory Posted Oct 3, 2008, 10:22 pm |
If you want to make this true, then two things need to happen: 1) Free characters need to have better fixed stats (str, dex, spd) 2) Pay characters need to cost more. As it is, I have recruited six or so free characters. Of those, one is quite good as a driver (and in fact was my first character with a non-leadership specialism). Five were poor enough that I didn't even keep them around. One started with a 21 first aid, and the rest started with 20s in all their main stats. (This is with over 100 fame and a recruiter lvl 1 for 4 out of the 6 recruits). Worse, though, aside from that driver (who started at age 27, with str 38, dex 56, spd 65, average 53, and a driver skill in the low 30s... and I recruited him BEFORE I got my recruiter) they all started with average fixed stats of less than 45. Two of them were gunners, one with a dex of around 32 and the other with a 21 dex. Do I want to hire a gunner with a 21 dex? Pay characters are more likely to start with a higher skill, and maybe that means they can get up to gunnery of 250. Is a gunner 250 with dex 21 better or worse than a gunner 150 with dex 91? I don't know, AND I have no idea what the skill potential is for these guys. Given that, I'd rather take the gunner with a dex of 91. Even if you don't look at it like that, given that you can recruit 100 people and take the 10 best, and you're only paying $100k to do so (which is a lot for ME, but not much for the better players out there), I can't see how spending money for recruiting could be considered unwise. If I have a 1/5 chance of getting a skilled guy from the freebies, and a 1/25 chance of getting one from the paid ones, and I have a 1/5 chance of getting one with good FIXED (str, dex, spd) attributes either way, then 1 of every 25 guys I recruit via the freebies will have good skills and good fixed attributes, and one of every 125 that I recruit with money will. In other words, I can wait 25 weeks to find someone like that via free characters, or I can hire 125 people today for $125k and get someone like that right now. That, for comparison, is around half of what a heavy gatling gun is selling for. I'd rather have two geniuses than an hgat. -KD |
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*sam* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 10:48 pm |
The main thing you're not likely to get in a paid-for hire is a high 'skill potential'. The really high potential characters are almost exclusively free recuits.
So is the idea of increasing the free recuits for new gangs to their first 10 a good idea? |
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*Longo* Posted Oct 3, 2008, 11:45 pm |
Id say no. Just start em with 10.
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anrkii Posted Oct 3, 2008, 11:53 pm |
I had no Idea that it reset every friday, I thought rate hikes were permanent. That makes things different , then.
So I retract my previous complaint. I think I was just biting off more than I could chew. I quit soloing , and I will be more careful with my guys, and not hire so many, problem solved. keep up the good work, sam |
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Kime Dennory Posted Oct 4, 2008, 1:19 am |
Does anyone actually get their characters' skills up that high? If they do, I repeat, is a guy with a guns skill of 250 and a dex of 21 better or worse than a guy with a guns skill of 150 and a dex if 91?
If I have no idea how much effect skill has vis-a-vis fixed attributes, I'll go with what I can see, which are the fixed attributes. -KD |
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4saken Posted Oct 4, 2008, 5:29 pm |
we need a wiki entry with Sam's little admissions. :oD it's like an angel came down and tapped you on the head. ::angel sounds in background:: as for the rental debate, i think the prices are too high, and i have stated so before. the main problem before was the ultra-low rental cost ($2500 to zero). making the costs now too high is no solution, they need to be reasonable. i don't have an exact answer and i myself have made multiple proposals, but the rules council needs to consider: rentals are mainly help for newbies and vets down on their luck. any proposed change should reflect this. the prices should be affordable by a newb, but not so incredibly low where a vet would usually rent just to save a buck, instead taking their own cars. at the same time they should not be "off limits" to vets. some of us like to "kick it old school" and rent every now and then. IMO a high deposit prevents the rental from being abused as it was before in the leave-behind loophole. but the cost should not be incredible. once it gets past a certain point it costs more than fixing a broken car that you own. having it be several times this number is just absurd (unless the intent is to have jake charge such high rates that it creates a player based rental economy!). compared to the old rates the new rates are at least 5 or 10 times higher. that's a huge increase. we need something in the middle. anyway, i've been rattling on. thats some of my thoughts. |