Rule Changes to Darkwinds--Far From Arbitrary
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Beverly-Dutton Posted Aug 27, 2021, 4:54 pm |
I do not usually post in the forums.
When I see Lebron James lobby referees for a call because he is not getting enough foul calls, it seems beneath someone who wants to be the NBA GOAT. When I see someone lobby for a rule change that stops someone from making money through trading that does not involve exploiting the Camp Wars or the League events by making it impossible for newer players to compete, I see that as worse than Lebron whining for foul calls. Michael Jordan wouldn't do that. In my short tenure I once considered some experienced players here to be worthy of being the DW GOAT. I no longer do. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 27, 2021, 6:46 pm |
Apart from having to work out the reference I completely agree.
It has, sadly, always been the case that one player's use of the rules will be seen by those that don't like them as an abuse and so goes the merry go round. Once upon, we had a rules council to debate and argue in a concentrated way about rule changes so that Sam would have multiple perspectives about proposed rule changes. I would imagine that the player base is no longer large enough (nor perhaps does the management have the time/interest) to revitalise the RC. We certainly didn't always get it right, but at least the choice was well informed/argued at the least. Apart from all that - well said and nicely put. |
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*The X Man* Posted Aug 27, 2021, 10:10 pm |
Can you be specific to what rule change was proposed that affects camp wars or leagues? This way I can better explain things and to see what could be done differently. |
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Groovelle Posted Sep 10, 2021, 2:25 am |
I think I got the jist.
I mean, from a roleplaying perspective, the amount of buzzers with godknowswhat on them being able to reduce an entire gang's worth of cars into scrap multiple times daily, just for insolence.. "Maybe we let these lorries go, I mean, they are our best buds.. now..." |
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*The X Man* Posted Sep 10, 2021, 4:47 am |
Its not a RP thing. I what to hear how a proposed rule stops someone from making money?? | ||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Sep 10, 2021, 5:50 am |
Any of the rules X-man Lobbied for come to mind…. Like untrucable encounters with allied factions who then execute Neg6 325 skill scouts as you exit Somerset with 256 Cr worth of cargo haulers and fight you 26 cars vs 4.
But I’m curious too what this change was. |
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Groovelle Posted Sep 10, 2021, 9:36 pm |
I figured it was the lorries full of water as well.
Didn't see anything wrong with it. If you wanted to fight so much other gangs didn't want to fight you, nothing wrong with that. |
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Groovelle Posted Sep 10, 2021, 10:08 pm |
I don't see why you'd punish your most loyal player for being your most loyal player. | ||||
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*Longo* Posted Sep 11, 2021, 6:11 am |
There was a player who exploited the game and got caught. What was to stop anyone who found out about this exploit to go and do the same thing, and have 20 billionaires in Darkwind, all with 20 skilled gangers, because thats all you would need to exploit this. Then these 20 people using all of their money to keep other things away from other players, or even grief them, due to having 10 times more money than anyone else. Its really silly to think that people think this was OK. I have played this game 14 years, and accumulated alot, but it wasnt without alot of blood, sweat, and hard work. Many, many other players have done the same as me. SO really, why do you think its OK to cheat to make 10 times what I have done in 14 years, in just a few months, money that took me 14 years? There are great people in this community, but sometimes Im disgusted with this community, people support cheating in a game. | ||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Sep 11, 2021, 8:09 am |
There is a world of difference between making use of the game systems and exploiting. Choosing a different way to play the game as allowed by the system is not the definition of exploitation. Exploiting is often a word thrown around far too often.
After all, for some having the crew and kit and similar allies to essentially prevent effective competition could arguably be seen as an exploit if we are playing fast and loose with definitions. Of course opinions will vary on that, but if the game system isn't working as intended you need to look harder than just come up with a simple 'fix' to deal with the 'exploiting'. Otherwise you run the very real risk of seeming somewhat lacklustre and uninspired. Lots of seemingly plucked out of the air numbers there that support your argument. Not compelling quite the opposite, makes me wonder why you feel the need to put them in to support your position - makes you appear butt hurt more than anything. |
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Tez Posted Sep 11, 2021, 8:34 am |
Can we stop talking in code and spout facts.
As X said we need clarity unless this becomes the latest Forum Wars PvP battleground. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Sep 11, 2021, 5:00 pm |
Im just curious what it was this time. Obviously trucing with allied factions was considered an "eXploit" in the past and yet when "Certain People" were found to be transporting Buzzers to Morgan for its defense using No-Danger Camp Roads to get there and to bypass bulk restrictions, those people weren't penalized. If that wasn't conscious manipulation and eXploiting and using one's position for personal gain, then I guess its also not exploiting when you heal and resurect your 35 spec characters whenever they die or get hurt, so that you can dominate CoE.
But playing 36-40 hours a week grinding reputation so that you can truce with allied factions and bring Fuel from Texan to Somerset is... And all the very well thought out suggestions on how to easily and transparently FIX it, make the economy more DYNAMIC, and the game more fun and playable, without it looking like a blanket "God-Ban" rather than a subtle systemic way things worked that wouldnt even be noticed, weren't considered because then it would cramp Certain People's play rather than just the people trying to play catchup The item mentioned could have been fixed with a simple supply and demand system. Instead we got a brutally punishing method where Allies will attack you despite your affiliation with them and despite even godly levels of negotiation skill. Meanwhile to avoid this, "Certain people" just use camp roads instead to do the same thing. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 11, 2021, 5:07 pm |
It was the EXACT same thing they roasted Krak over the coals for. It was a DISCOVERY there. Darth was WELL aware. THIS time it is a MOTHER ####KING EXPLOIT no matter what the #### this crabs in the bucket community says. People who've been sucking the TEET of this Cretin are the only ones upset he got CAUGHT.
He made FAR more money than Krak did. Going by what was spent the past year on sponsors alone we estimate well over half a billion DW dollars. It affected camp wars as a direct result, but the economy in DW has been largely acting like a banana republic in general as well. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Sep 11, 2021, 5:11 pm |
Caveat: Yes i've been playing for many years and have many things (but no money) so im not saying these things for personal gain. Im saying these things in the interest in DW being seamless and dynamic.
I dont like eXploits and feel they should be plugged up when found, but more often than not, something thats NOT an eXploit is termed one because it cuts into other players profits and they feel threatened by it or they think you are doing better than they are at the game. That perception is often wrong. One example was when I was accused of cheating because I had a return and my guys in loot cars got out and got back into their combat car to defend against the return rather than fighting in a loot car. I was told by "Certain People" that it wasnt allowed to fight a return that way and I had to fight it the way HE said to fight it. |
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*Longo* Posted Sep 11, 2021, 6:24 pm |
I laugh and wait every time I post on the forums anymore Nine, because I know you are going to jump to your keyboard and reply against whatever I posted. You used to be a man who I respected an opinion from, but I think your opinions have been tainted for sometime now, since getting your butt handed to you in numerous camp war battles. I think you are the butt hurt guy. Id leave this comment with "Ill see you on the roads of Evan" but I know you wont climb out from under your bed and jump into Evan because you fear another butt kickin. One more thing -
This is really simple math. After sponsorships are auctioned, then next week you look at all camp's fame and see who gets one (or all) of the 5 fame boosts. Before this exploit started, usually 5 different players would get a sponsor and a fame boost each game year. But the last 5 game years the player doing the exploiting purchased around 20 of 25 of these sponsorships, keeping them from others and using exploited money. Your camp The Vault was a recipient of at least one of these sponsorships, having it handed to you as the exploited player occasionally would give one of these to his minions, keeping most for himself. I know personally how much was spent because I was bidding on these and saw the last bid on them. Nobody should be able to make over 500 million dollars in a year with ZERO risk. Hopefully next season a few other players will get a chance to sponsor their camps and make some stuff they previously couldnt. |
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*Longo* Posted Sep 11, 2021, 6:28 pm |
Crisp - Getting high anarchist fame used for this exploit is basically killing(redding) a few traders each week. |
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Groovelle Posted Sep 11, 2021, 7:45 pm |
I guess I don't care much about what happened as much as I don't like the, admittedly perceived and second-hand, way it was dealt with (none of this has affected me yet).
Wouldn't the easier fix than a level 5 negotiator not being able to truce their best buds be that - if you're friends with a faction's enemies, you can't be friends with us - type deal. So if you're super in with the Mutants, the Civs say kick rocks when you try to red their enemies to get in their good graces. I think it should be a sliding scale, or logarithmic or something, so that once you're in good with one faction, you'd have to put in a thousand hours a week to try to raise one of its enemy's reps. The effect of it would be, yea, if you tried to play the averages on everyone, you'd come up below neutral with everyone, because you'd be pissing everyone off, but if you wanted, say, Civ and Mutie rep you could try (really, really hard), but you'd still never get Anarchists, Privateers, Slavers and Raiders to trust you. In reality, if the factions were players, there's no way you could red some of us on a Friday and us be cool about it the following week because you hit our enemies. No friggen way. |
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FireFly Posted Sep 11, 2021, 11:12 pm |
I have heard the call for more context and clarity, so here I am! Probably not the person Tez wanted but I'm what he gets.
We can't know how much he made but it's very easy to estimate how much he could have been making. A camp can easilly produce several thousands units of food/water with good resources and several production plants, the only check on this is the fact you have to move all of that to town to sell it. 5000(u*)*450[p]*120[d] equals over a quarter billion in a single DW year. It would be almost impossible to move all these goods in terms of playtime and encounters every day. This is why someone might start running squads of unarmored, unarmed lorries with no engines because they knew they could truce all possible encounters. Unarmored lorries trucing everything is a known exploit from the past mind you. I mean, most of us have done stupid things at some point (me included, possibly while drunk  ) but you don't set something like this up by mistake.
u* - Units of goods, I can say this with certainty because I know my own camp in sarsfield could produce that with similar tile income to what he'd get from the surrounding tiles in FL. Could have done the exact thing he did. p - Town sales price, for the last few years firelight prices for water and food have rested in the 400-500 range, or thereabouts iirc. d - days, duh **Edit I forgot to mention this part, but it also takes and incredible number of crew to move convoys like these. By doing this lorry "trick" you cut down crew requirements to 1 rookie driver per truck, instead of the possibly multiple crew per lorry and escort vehicle you'd normally need. |
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darthspanky Posted Sep 11, 2021, 11:59 pm |
lmoa biznatches still complaining lol, yeah i only made half billion honest stupid mofo will never learn how much i made while i sit back laughing at the dumbasses.
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*The X Man* Posted Sep 12, 2021, 5:27 am |
Wasn't me so get your facts straight before you ramble on about things you don't know |
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*The X Man* Posted Sep 12, 2021, 5:36 am |
You better show your facts because if you are accusing me of this, Sam will get involved. Especially after he told you there was nothing I do that he doesn't get notified about. Makes it impossible for this to go undetected. Again crispin, I live between your ears rent free. You hate me cause you ain't me! |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Sep 12, 2021, 4:14 pm |
@Firefly - if what you are saying is true, then there are better ways of fixing it.
@Longo - you have slipped to ad hominem attacks which means you don't actually have an argument worth making. In general, I am really quite tired of being diplomatic with everyone - if there wasn't an affect on certain players then it wouldn't have been raised. Even in my most optimisitic mood I cannot call this enlightened self interest, merely more more me. me, me. You're right Longo I won't see you on the road, why on earth would I spend time dealing with some of the utter dickheads that this game is cursed with - who continue to miss the entire ####ing point that what is best for them (time and again) isn't best for the game. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Sep 12, 2021, 5:11 pm |
And we are sick of you throwing around your dementia addled comments around. This is who you are defending (figuritout bud) you defend some of the biggest tools in the lobby time and time again:
You don't even play the game anymore, Nine, take a fkin seat. |
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*sam* Posted Sep 12, 2021, 6:42 pm |
Topic locked. Everyone grow up.
Characters sent to the Pit from the gangs of: - St Crispin, for posting baseless accusations about X Man when I have previously told you he does not cheat with his powers (I get emailed whenever he resurrects or moves a character or vehicle), and does not decide on rules changes. - Joel for being abusive - Ninesticks for being abusive - Spanky for being offensive |