Ganger Trading and Selling
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FreeformWings Posted Jul 7, 2020, 6:43 am |
(I talked to Sam and he stated this would be a "substantial change that would need to be discussed," and he has considered it in the past.)
With PvP becoming more prevalent, a way to replace losses to a gang through other players would be an interesting option. It would also open up new avenues for gameplay like people training gangers and selling high skill capped gangers. I know some players have much better training regimens then others for their gangers and crosstraining. Gangers never stop aging. If you take a month or two break frm the gang your gangers sit around like lazy bums. With this mechanic you could give your gangers to a trusted friend to continue using them while you're away. Might as well get some use out of them! What do you all think? Any other suggestions or recommendations if this was to be added? |
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 8:10 am |
Pandora's Box | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 9:22 am |
The only thing I would change about gangers would be to halt ageing in vacation mode. It seriously hampers player return after a long break to find that you have nobody left. | ||||||||
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Tez Posted Jul 7, 2020, 11:48 am |
No...please no ganger trading/selling | ||||||||
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 7, 2020, 12:35 pm |
i don't understand why people are against this just saying NO doesn't help the disscusion can people plz tell me why its a bad idea i mean there are people hiring other ppls mechanics for there camp now
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FreeformWings Posted Jul 7, 2020, 1:12 pm |
I agree Goat. After talking with others yeah I can see why it's not a great idea. I've recommended to Sam in the past of a cryosleep function for gangers on vacation. Taking a break from the game and coming back to everyone being dead isn't fun. He said he'd continue to take it into consideration. | ||||||||
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Tez Posted Jul 7, 2020, 1:31 pm |
Because training gangers, to me, is the game. Taking that away is unacceptable in my opinion. | ||||||||
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Madbooth Posted Jul 7, 2020, 1:38 pm |
Nope open to total abuse i already think players run around with multi accounts now people are suggesting said multi accounts could possible just give them selves a star player gang is a no.
So im no on this change. |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 7, 2020, 2:00 pm |
that would make you a seller not a buyer it would be another income stream for you :-p |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 7, 2020, 2:01 pm |
if people are using multi accounts there already braking the rules and there for this is another way to catch them and kick them for braking the rules |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 7, 2020, 2:04 pm |
imo if we where to put in a ganger selling system it would have to be with in the context of the game slavery is in the game so it would have to be based on that
gangers can be captured in pvp and npc combat and can be sold to slavers and maybe camps can set up slave markets where people can sell of captured gangers to players or FL ie if you lose to slavers maybe they appear on a local slave market for 1 week before being sold to FL npcs captured in PvE or PVP can be put on the market (they would have to be transported there) and the to take slaves you would have to have the space to take them home |
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Madbooth Posted Jul 7, 2020, 2:08 pm |
nope again abuse open just lose pvps by purpouse for special ganger gains.... If you are factioned with slavers and you win a PVP intercept and win the players should be given to fire light and you are payed for the Gangers in question by firelight. | ||||||||
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 7, 2020, 2:14 pm |
every new thing added to the game is open to abuse from multi players m8 every thing becouse the game as it stands is open to abuse from multi players the only way to stop that is is to get rid of the multi players look at the new missions every new accout can do them and get the rewards whats stopping some one just making new accounts and selling the rewards each time on the market to there main account giving them unlimited hggs cars and such theres nothing stopping them doing that now except getting banned so being open to abuse by scum rule brakers is not a good reason not to add new stuff in to the game to improve it its weather or not the additions will improve game play for the majority that matters |
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 2:53 pm |
i would be more open to a system where gangers you fail to use stand a small but significant chance of deciding to seek new employment. They might also consider this if you run out of money. They could even have a hidden 'loyalty' stat. They then enter the recruitment pool (and are more likely to be picked up by gangs that are prominent in their town).
making it random and out of the control of players would prevent abuse. obviously this would have to be prevented by vacation mode. A character doing something like being a camp mech would be exempt. |
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*sam* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 3:14 pm |
Ironically, making it random and out of the control of players would promote abuse.. towards me ! I don't think ganger tradiing is going to happen, there's too many risks. Removing aging does seem like something I need to do though, let's say if the player has not logged in for the entire game year. The reason I didn't want to was for realism (plus, I feel strongly about character fragility and 'the human condition' etc.).. however, sometimes gameplay reasons have to trump realism. |
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 5:43 pm |
The safest thing to do would be is to have vacation mode freeze all gang activity. Basically a pause button, then player can resume right where they left off. | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 6:11 pm |
Yea, probable the best case to retain players. |
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Madbooth Posted Jul 7, 2020, 6:26 pm |
The no ageing thing is totaly open to abuse =)
I wouldnt mind it means my gang becomes immortal ...sadly my enemys gangers would never die in there sleep =/ (which is the most likely way i see them die)...hurmmm... |
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Madbooth Posted Jul 7, 2020, 6:27 pm |
If no ageing should be injurys Knock down stats if its not death.
Eye and finger = - dex Legs and toes = - Speed Arms hands = - Str Ect ect. |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 6:30 pm |
Could go with a compromise to critics against this by saying you still age, but at a much reduced rate. |
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FireFly Posted Jul 7, 2020, 7:43 pm |
I like the no login for a year thing, if it has to be done. Don't think it should be a toggle. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 7:48 pm |
Exactly, the player doesn't need to do anything. If they didn't log in for the whole game year then they avoid aging. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 8:04 pm |
some abuse is earned 
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jul 7, 2020, 8:13 pm |
I'll put my tuppence worth in, like the proposed change to ageing for non-active players - seems eminently sensible and worthwhile.
Out of curiosity how would people trade/sell gangers, or more specifically - why would they (apart from nefarious underhand attempts perhaps to get around certain things no doubt)? |
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Effy Posted Jul 7, 2020, 9:09 pm |
My guess is it would help richers get whatever they want with more ease.
I had the luck to recruit a 17yo psi mutant 2 weeks ago. I guess i would have ended selling her for something that would seem a lot to me but probably would be a minor investment to a "rich" player. Same if i found i have a 300 capper... i would probably end selling the ganger. It's very hard not to have a price inside a game (and even more when you don't want to be a "top"). And about not aging while away... seems a decent proposal to me, can't really see how it can be abused. |
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FireFly Posted Jul 7, 2020, 9:29 pm |
Dunno if it's a good idea tho, I voted no since it takes a lot of the gang personality out of the thing. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 7, 2020, 11:43 pm |
I have not seen such a clear vote as when we voted Shanty be open for PvP intercepts. | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Jul 7, 2020, 11:59 pm |
i offered to train players gangers at my camp, trained one of avenged sevenfolds mechs to 120, one of andrew ants scouts to 100 and currently training one of joes scouts, offered training to players who kept a ganger at my camp and raced for me in leagues, but not many takers on that offer. | ||||||||
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FreeformWings Posted Jul 8, 2020, 8:05 am |
I agree with Longo. If not possible to fully stop aging, a large reduction would be beneficial for both sides of the argument. It also makes sense: not being in highly stressful gun fights is more than likely beneficial to your health physically and mentally in the long term. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 8, 2020, 9:25 am |
is it now? Did that ever happen? |
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Tez Posted Jul 8, 2020, 10:34 am |
Is everyones gangers ageing at normal speed regardless of whether you play or not an issue?
Most of my ace crew died of old age when I came back after five years, just means I have the fun of bonding with a new, more talented and more drug addicted bunch. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jul 8, 2020, 1:20 pm |
I agree with the Roses
No change even to ageing |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 8, 2020, 5:46 pm |
this has gone off topic stopping aging for gangers is not the same as a way to trade gangers
so far the only objection iv seen is multi rule breakers might abuse it which is not a reason to not do it can any one give me a reason that it would be a bad addition to the game ? i like the idea of utilizing the slavery as its with in the game world already this vote was not about gangers aging how many people have voted on that rather then the actual topic of trading gangers because as i said above no one has given me any game balance or in-game reasons why trading is bad |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 8, 2020, 7:31 pm |
Yes, I can give you an answer. The masses (presently 76%) don’t want it. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jul 8, 2020, 7:47 pm |
I don't think it is terrible to ask why people don't want it. In fact, it would be useful in some ways.
Just because lots said no doesn't, in and of itself, mean that it is a poor idea. More important to look at the pros and cons - that's the trouble with votes like this - they tend to restrict that discussion. Personally speaking, I think anything to do with players and slavery has always been, and should continue to be, a big fecking no-no. World of difference between the AI spriting your crew off to the gladiator pits and players actively engaging in it. And no, it doesn't matter that it is a post-apocalyptic game, real world sensibilities and sensitivites need to be given their due regard. |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 8, 2020, 8:13 pm |
Fair enough. Gangs like mine would sell our low cappers for alot of money to new gangs, and make more money. Then, we would buy any high ones other gangs offered up. So the big gangs would just get better, and the medium gangs would take a step back, and the new gangs would take longer to develop as they would sell off their good guys to try and get a better foothold in. I think it would make me more powerful, and I am against it. |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 8, 2020, 8:42 pm |
ok that's a reason to not do direct trading i can respect it but i will point out that , that's what happens in the game now those with money get the big camps buy the best weapons and cars and the newer guys cant afford them what you have stated there is simply gives another way for the newer smaller gangs to make money off the bigger richer guys to help them improve there gangs by stopping it you block a way for newer players from another income stream but that wasn't my idea i was thinking more in the lines of whats already in the game ie slavery i don' see why we cant capture npc or pc gangers and sell them on markets with a mechanism like you have to free them if you want them to join your gang with a random chance of then joining or just leaving in a post apocalyptic world just like the real world people are a reasorce ask any HR dept regardless of IRL morals (theirs lots of slavery gos on in the IRL today which i would like to see stamped out with extreme prejudice) the practice exists in the game as is it just give more RPG in the game if you don't care and want to make money do it if you care hunt down those doing it attack the camps that have a market imo it just add more flavor and choices in the game |
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 8, 2020, 8:46 pm |
Isn't this more like a football transfer fee than slavery? |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 8, 2020, 8:55 pm |
[/quote]
Isn't this more like a football transfer fee than slavery?[/quote] for the direct trading if your a sports fan ya it would be just like that in fact you could pay a % of the fee to the ganger ie its taken off the price payed |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 8, 2020, 9:40 pm |
I dont think so. Honestly not sure. Pointed it out to sam a couple months ago. Usually these kinds of polls dont mean much unless it is something sam is actively working on.(like the time we did community weapons balancing and various omgmakemeliteonfireless nerfs) |
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*Bastille* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 3:28 am |
To be more clear
I agree with Ninesticks and longos points above Further more I think there is far too much room for exploit with ganger trading. Selling and trading gangers like slaves is unethical. This convo came up 10 years ago. Nothing has changed. As for ageing; I think it changes the game too much. Its a persistent world, suddenly some gangers are held in limbo and don't age. It would be beneficial for me, as I don't train my guys much before I go AWOL again, but doesn't work for me. My leader is old. I had him since 2012 when he won me the SCL badge. Thats his history. All my guys have one and this breaks that for me. I came back from a long break. All my guys sucked. Im sill dealing with them. Thats the game for me. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 6:53 am |
I wasn't particulary clear earlier regarding ganger trading.
Pretty ambivalent about ganger trading, it's not something I would personally engage in but understand that others might want to. Given that good crew and better player skills/knowledge/understanding are the way to progress and get richer in the game it seems like it would be less of an income stream for newer players if they had any sense. I have been trying to think of ways this could be exploited and haven't thought of any particularly significant ones as yet. |
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FireFly Posted Jul 9, 2020, 9:06 am |
It doesn't have any real exploit points that doesn't involve using multiple accounts as far as I can tell (and I can usually tell). At worst I could see people getting others to get weekly recruits for them if they have no need for them themselves, but that isn't really much of one. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 10:52 am |
One issue I have against it is that players who get bored and leave could be persuaded to give their gangers to their friends, which leaves their gang in a much weaker state and makes it less likely they'll decide to come back after a year or two. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Jul 9, 2020, 11:34 am |
True, but not having to start from scratch again becauae of a dead gang might also help some of us come back. 
Granted, age pause will help with that, but its probaby to late there for a lot of potential returning vets already. Still not sure I'm for it, but it is a point in its favor. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 11:49 am |
I wonder how many new accounts will pop up. Dont have to do much, just a training pool I can access whenever I like. Sure its slow... limited. Easy trail to follow but it will still create a mess. |
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Tez Posted Jul 9, 2020, 12:27 pm |
I think if you want to come back, you'll come back regardless of whatever state your gang is in. I'm sure some even fire all the old crew and start fresh anyway. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 1:15 pm |
This is probably true for a lot of people, yes. |
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*sam* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 1:16 pm |
Yep. Multi-accounting is very hard to catch. At the moment it gives few benefits, if any. Ganger trading would make multi-accounting an obvious thing for people to start doing. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 1:48 pm |
it would also make it much easier to spot. |
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FireFly Posted Jul 9, 2020, 2:06 pm |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 2:10 pm |
I think another option to get players to come back (sorry to go off topic/ Hijack thread ), but maybe Sam could email out that returning gangs who have been gone more than a year could receive 3 50 skilled gangers on their first 3 recruits or something to that effect. It stinks to restart, but it’s also fun as has been previously mentioned. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 2:41 pm |
Interesting idea. |
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Manfred VonRichthofen Posted Jul 9, 2020, 3:44 pm |
Returning to the game is a thing, but sticking to it is another one. Instead of 3 new guyz already at 50 skill I would prefer 3 new guyz with a certifiate cap above 150...
I returned few months ago, and since that time I had almost only low cappers, only a single one made it above 200 for now. I am recording statistics and it's really really bad... I am still playing untill the end of my premium time (2 months left) then I will look at those statistics and maybe stop again the game, but I must admit I have a huge feeling of wasted time. When I used to play 10 years ago, 90% of my gangers never capped with skills under 150, now I have had multi cappers even below 80 ! most under 100, few between 100 and 150, and for now since 3 or 4 months only a SINGLE one made it above 200 ! This is insidious, and it is linked to the fact that I am not moving gang further south... why would I move gangers south that are capped under 150, when I know I will have to fight 10 specs npc. I will never be as good as them because I am capped to 4 or 5 specs max with that <150 skill cap --> Even more wasted time edit : now to avoid wasting time, I only run solo travel cars, just increasing scouting skill to check their cap, not scouting anymore except in SS sometimes for the few cash I need to run those 10+ travel cars edit 2 : or let us spend hundreds of chrome points to have certified high cappers |
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Tez Posted Jul 9, 2020, 7:29 pm |
tears |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 8:21 pm |
Not sure if memory serves me correctly but the rough average is a cap of 100-150. Free hires tend to fare better and others worse. Really is luck of the draw, A couple of weeks ago I ran a lorry transport squad from GW to BL with sub 100 gangers (2 specs on the gunners)- was a bit hairy I will admit but eminently doable with vet resources in terms of equipment.
I think a lot of players, myself included, tend to put their own limitations on what they will attempt without certain skilled gangers due to understandable risk aversion rather than the game actually enforcing it. |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 9:50 pm |
Your an exception though Nine, you play well above your gangers skill. Not a lot can say that. 
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darthspanky Posted Jul 9, 2020, 10:07 pm |
why dont we just compromise, give all gangs 10 extra ganger slots and turn skill capping off 
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 9, 2020, 10:11 pm |
Lock topic lock topic lock topic. | ||||||||
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*Dark Tempest* Posted Jul 9, 2020, 11:31 pm |
This is one of the better discussions going Joel! I'm against ganger trading, for some kind of relief for long vacations. Sam has made going away somewhat easier than it used to be with suspending upkeep, it used to be possible to come back and have a bank account millions in the red.
Nine, you should share replay numbers of your exploits! |
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FireFly Posted Jul 9, 2020, 11:36 pm |
To be honest, unless you are trying to build something specialized like a lasergunner where you need 3 gunnery specs. Multispec gangers that cap at the low 100's can do almost everything. Well, unless you have a fetish for hitting at 150m with rear gunners I guess.
As for sniper 9's... s.u.c.k has been the only super gang full of those I've encountered recently, down in SF anyway. I kinda love it, just about the only AI gang around right now that incites terror when they show up. Sadly, most of their snipers are dead now. I think we need more specced AI gangers in general
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*Bastille* Posted Jul 10, 2020, 4:34 am |
+1 |
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FreeformWings Posted Jul 10, 2020, 5:44 am |
If people truly have the urge to Darkwind they'll always return. Quite a few of the old veterans are tired of the current state of the game and the never changing mechanics. This is Darkwind though, should count ourselves lucky it's still around!
I still appreciate all the conversation this poll has brought up. It may be beneficial if in a month or two after everyone's seen all sides another poll be made about age freezing or other age related mechanics. |
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*Maxxed* Posted Jul 10, 2020, 9:20 am |
If something like this was to be done I'd suggest having mercenaries rather than trading...players could hire out their characters plus an NPC pool.
This would also allow newer/restarting players to scout down south and hold their own or hire characters or a specific purpose. e.g. A high end scout, a mech or a heavy gunner. |
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Rex-Rillian Posted Jul 11, 2020, 10:35 am |
not a bad idea isn't something like this under discussion for the camp wars oh and about real world ethics and morals when i hear this i just think you might as well paint your hair green and scream pronouns , pronouns , pronouns real world ethics and morals don't belong in game mechanics its a slippery road that ends in a game people don't want to play the game world is just that a game world a fantasy place where people do things they cant in the real world in a world envisioned by the creators with its own rules ethics and morals if you start putting the real world in to it it doesn't stop and you end up a mud ball simulator that can not offend any one because its so boring that no one will play it |
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*goat starer* Posted Jul 11, 2020, 8:53 pm |
you can do everything you can do in this game in the real world. you will just very quickly find yourself fighting shanty odds with a noob crew. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 11, 2020, 11:42 pm |
We already have this ability. put them in your friends cars and select the passenger retention switch. At a camp just pool them and your friend can put them in whatever car they want, even use your pooled cars as well. Sam said he was adding mercenaries. Why are we discussing this when the mercs haven't even been added yet? |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 18, 2020, 6:41 am |
AAfter some thought, i realized this could lead to read world trading for currencies. If this would gt approved, chrome should be a mandatory cost based on specialisms, this way say gets a cut from each team member trade | ||||||||
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 18, 2020, 6:59 am |
Time to put this suggestion to rest after being voted NO by 72.41%
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