darthspanky Posted Jun 14, 2020, 9:08 pm	whats the point of having gangers be allowed to escape, only to try it and it not works, couldnt kill me when i was being bombed by mortars but finally breech and get him, go to escape and nothing works, but instead of saying haha got him, you choose to keep mortaring him after he demo's, glad im not on yout team, and if any of you ever ask for mercy from me you wont get it, i thought there was a rule you join camp war squads your pvp should be turned on? a few dont have pvp on and were in the war squads?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 14, 2020, 9:27 pm	Oh no was that ganger pretty good?
*goat starer* Posted Jun 14, 2020, 9:51 pm	darthspanky said: i thought there was a rule you join camp war squads your pvp should be turned on? a few dont have pvp on and were in the war squads? i don't think it was ever implemented but i do think it would be a very good idea. 1) If you join a camp war squad you become PVP open for a period 2) all squads travelling to a PVP open camp are PVP open.
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:21 am	last i checked 2 of them had pvp off.
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:25 am	Joel Autobaun said: Oh no was that ganger pretty good? thats the diffrence between us joel, he was damm good but i dont hide behind my so called allies, and whine like a bitch when one dies in battle killed when he was helpless,yeah joel your really so good, imscared now, punches the baseball bat guy in the mouth this is gunna get ugly' you always have been a coward and you always will be, you cant win alone, good get your friends together becausse im wiping your bitch ass out of sars.
*Longo* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:16 am	"I guess I am kind of a big deal now." says Charles 'Wont Die' Young, slayer of James "T" Kirk.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:28 am	darthspanky said: whats the point of having gangers be allowed to escape, only to try it and it not works I had the same thing happen as well. Good thing mutie skin is partially fire retardant because she cooked for a long time in that ambie. I also mentioned this to Sam during the event and said that this function was put in place for instant ganger removal to avoid casualties. Apparently, the character cannot be incapacitated because it will not work. My understanding was anytime and under any condition, this escape feature would remove your character safely. So this will be brought to Sam's attention for review. After that, we all need to revisit this issue and come to a consensus on the specific conditions that allow the instant escape to work.
*Longo* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:37 am	*The X Man* said: darthspanky said: whats the point of having gangers be allowed to escape, only to try it and it not works I had the same thing happen as well. Good thing mutie skin is partially fire retardant because she cooked for a long time in that ambie. I also mentioned this to Sam during the event and said that this function was put in place for instant ganger removal to avoid casualties. Apparently, the character cannot be incapacitated because it will not work. My understanding was anytime and under any condition, this escape feature would remove your character safely. So this will be brought to Sam's attention for review. After that, we all need to revisit this issue and come to a consensus on the specific conditions that allow the instant escape to work. This seemed apparent when the Vault battle occurred, but nobody said anything. As for Darth's ganger's death, he had ample time to escape, as his buzzer was breached for quite a while, but he kept driving it and was able to escape, choosing to continue to drive it away in an attempt to save his buzzer. Its a bad decision to not have had him escape turns before his death, and turns before he was incapacitated. Not saying that this should not be corrected down the road, but a "review" of this death is complete BS.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:41 am	darthspanky said: Joel Autobaun said: Oh no was that ganger pretty good? thats the diffrence between us joel, he was damm good but i dont hide behind my so called allies, and whine like a bitch when one dies in battle killed when he was helpless,yeah joel your really so good, imscared now, punches the baseball bat guy in the mouth this is gunna get ugly' you always have been a coward and you always will be, you cant win alone, good get your friends together becausse im wiping your bitch ass out of sars. This saddens me  I thought we were going to be great neighbors  You said how nice to be able to beat the #### out of xman in 3-4 rounds  I thought wow this guy is so cool...even if it looks like him an bill are friends too...but then I like bill too, I spared his camp under the old system, just cause he asked me too, that didnt quite workout for me because then you said hey i'm going to kill joels camp with 13000cr and with bill...oh my....i says to myself oh my, then you showed up to defend xman's camp...ohmygawd what is happening...im so hurt and confused...we were both going to go hammer and anvil on the embassy from the southeast...we had such dreams but they were gone in a half an afternoon because longo said the wrong thing i think..you said he said something wrong and now i long for yesterday..when your gang leader still had his head and we were friends
*The X Man* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 3:34 am	*sam* said: I think the game is in a pretty good position for pro/anti pvp players at this point. We have a bunch of different types of event, allowing players to go full pvp, limited pvp, or no pvp at all. I don't see a need to force camp war participants to open pvp elsewhere- to me, it's another variation of limited pvp which I hope will suit many players and let them have fun. Forcing them to open pvp in other parts of the game would be pushing many away from this new game mode. I'm looking forward to some awesome and legendary battles happening under this new feature. Two big multiplayer squads trying to outwit each other, tactics playing out through creative vehicle builds. Outflanking, outgunning, outmaneuvering. All with safety mechanisms such as the 201 turn limit and immediate ganger escape. I honestly can't see why everyone isn't excited to try this. *sam* said: The next thing I'm going to do is change the rule that gives a per-player vehicle limit in the Camp Wars squads.  This will be replaced by a per-player CR limit.  Details to follow.. One more thing I will get done before next week is: any character can immediately (on command of their owner, even inside a car) be removed from the combat and put into a footsquad. This is why Longo
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 3:49 am	Darth had many, many chances to escape his ganger once it became clear no further effective action was possible.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 3:53 am	*Dark Tempest* said: Darth had many, many chances to escape his ganger once it became clear no further effective action was possible. Doesn't matter how many chances he had, but its when he tried, it didn't work. Thats why I posted what sam said about it because it was to be immediate, even while inside the vehicle.
*Longo* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 4:44 am	*The X Man* said: *Dark Tempest* said: Darth had many, many chances to escape his ganger once it became clear no further effective action was possible. Doesn't matter how many chances he had, but its when he tried, it didn't work. Thats why I posted what sam said about it because it was to be immediate, even while inside the vehicle. Well then Sam has to give back everyone’s gangers who have died since the camp wars began. I’d also Like all of mine back that have been killed in pvp since I started playing.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 15, 2020, 4:47 am	Well Harry was explaining to us stunned/ko gangers cant escape to us while we were wondering why people are burning to death. It was known(to some??l). So i have been through a few battles like that and the vault and indeed embassy people must have discussed this while before...many turns before darth evem attempted escape. He knew and delayed...turns we could have shot his other buzzer. We all know his guy got.killed for weird darth delaying reasons and nothing else. So now a special exception? After we submitted to cr change(understandable). Other issues we are working through...understandable. This exception though seems very unreasonable because of the delaying darth did and long after the same thing happened to many of you. Kinda a mess. If kirk comes back to life i demand my alliance with spanky be repaired also.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 4:50 am	Joel Autobaun said: Well Harry was explaining to us stunned/ko gangers cant escape to us while we were wondering why people are burning to death.  It was known(to some??l). So i have been through a few battles like that and the vault and indeed embassy people must have discussed this while before...many turns before darth evem attempted escape.  He knew and delayed...turns we could have shot his other buzzer.  We all know his guy got.killed for weird darth delaying reasons and nothing else. So now a special exception? After we submitted to cr change(understandable).  Other issues we are working through...understandable. This exception though seems very unreasonable because of the delaying darth did and long after the same thing happened to many of you. Kinda a mess. If kirk comes back to life i demand my alliance with spanky be repaired also. If this happened first, then escaping would not save him.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 4:56 am	Joel, I think the main issue here was not knowing being incapacitated would not allow you to instantly escape. It was happening to me in the ambie and I brought it to Sam's attention at that time. I was lucky I my ganger survived. But knowing the above, I would have escaped much sooner. We just need clarification for future fights.
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 5:05 am	*The X Man* said: Joel, I think the main issue here was not knowing being incapacitated would not allow you to instantly escape. It was happening to me in the ambie and I brought it to Sam's attention at that time. I was lucky I my ganger survived. But knowing the above, I would have escaped much sooner. We just need clarification for future fights. I had this happen to one of my characters in the first PvP event (and no I don't want her back). I thought this was intentional but having seen Sam's quote and listening to Sam last night not being able to escape due to ko/incap was an unintended consequence of how the escape code was implemented. If people tried to escape their crew and couldn't because of an unintended logic in the coding then this should be reversed if people request it. Any other result would be contrary to the intention of this 'rule' and harmful to participation while all the code gets settled in and any wrinkles ironed out.
*Longo* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 5:59 am	*Ninesticks* said: *The X Man* said: Joel, I think the main issue here was not knowing being incapacitated would not allow you to instantly escape. It was happening to me in the ambie and I brought it to Sam's attention at that time. I was lucky I my ganger survived. But knowing the above, I would have escaped much sooner. We just need clarification for future fights. I had this happen to one of my characters in the first PvP event (and no I don't want her back). I thought this was intentional but having seen Sam's quote and listening to Sam last night not being able to escape due to ko/incap was an unintended consequence of how the escape code was implemented. If people tried to escape their crew and couldn't because of an unintended logic in the coding then this should be reversed if people request it. Any other result would be contrary to the intention of this 'rule' and harmful to participation while all the code gets settled in and any wrinkles ironed out. Darth could have demoed his last buzzer at the end and his gang leader would have been saved.
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 7:39 am	The question isn't what else he could have done in fairness Longo - it is whether the escape system worked as Sam intended. There are lots of other things he could have done but that isn't relevant. If he should have been able to click the character and escape and that wasn't available having being informed it should have been that pretty much settles the matter from my point of view. Nobody can tell what he was thinking and doing at his keyboard - that is pretty much a pointless avenue of discussion. If he couldn't do what he should have been able to do then logically and morally he is entitled to the benefit then he should receive the benefit of the doubt. Let me be clear just in case anyone is in doubt, I would be arguing this point no matter who it had happened to or what team they are on - it is simply fair and reasonable.
Valiance Posted Jun 15, 2020, 8:14 am	It is amazing, as an outsider, how much PvP does not look like fun. :-)
*Longo* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 8:28 am	*Ninesticks* said: The question isn't what else he could have done in fairness Longo - it is whether the escape system worked as Sam intended. There are lots of other things he could have done but that isn't relevant. If he should have been able to click the character and escape and that wasn't available having being informed it should have been that pretty much settles the matter from my point of view. Nobody can tell what he was thinking and doing at his keyboard - that is pretty much a pointless avenue of discussion. If he couldn't do what he should have been able to do then logically and morally he is entitled to the benefit then he should receive the benefit of the doubt. Let me be clear just in case anyone is in doubt, I would be arguing this point no matter who it had happened to or what team they are on - it is simply fair and reasonable. This was known about for a month, as you have stated. So why was it not addressed or challenged until Darth loses a guy? Im all for it to work as discussed, but it doesnt, and has worked the other way for over a month, with several town hall discussions where it wasnt challenged or addressed or even brought up. So now we are going to address it and resurrect Darth's guy because he died and he complained? He could have saved his guy but was more worried about saving his buzzer and died.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 8:50 am	*Longo* said: *The X Man* said: *Dark Tempest* said: Darth had many, many chances to escape his ganger once it became clear no further effective action was possible. Doesn't matter how many chances he had, but its when he tried, it didn't work. Thats why I posted what sam said about it because it was to be immediate, even while inside the vehicle. Well then Sam has to give back everyone’s gangers who have died since the camp wars began. I’d also Like all of mine back that have been killed in pvp since I started playing. i lost a couple in one of Ifflers cars... but to be fair he didn't know he should have been able to escape them and logged off without trying - so i cant think of any reason why i should have them back. As a result i have never known whether the thing worked or not. My understanding was that you can escape at any point - and i don't remember anyone ever saying that this would not operate if a ganger was incapacitated. As nine said if it is working as intended lets just make that clear. If it isn't then it is a bug... and this game has always fixed through the return of characters.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 8:56 am	Valiance said: It is amazing, as an outsider, how much PvP does not look like fun. :-) You seem to get so much enjoyment out of telling other people who are having fun that the things they are having fun at are not fun. I can't see how posting the same thing thousands of times into every discussion about PVP on the forum and the lobby is fun - but you clearly enjoy it . I guess fun is subjective.
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 9:39 am	if this was meant to be fun its not working, go into a battle not knowing the odds, thinking this should be fun only to be outmatched in cr fight as hard as possible, have all mortars targeted on you, and when finally ko'd cant escape, playing for what? a recruitment bonus owe sweet, now once i get a guy 700 more lleader points i can finally hire because i wont be over lmit, or more mech training lol my mechs are capped, dont be surprized after smoking out joel i walk away give goat my lands, you guys play this system its not for me, i dont find it fun being held back because we want everyone to play. no thanks. find another guinnie pig. i couldnt care lesss if i get guy back, keep him dead i really dont give a ####. things were said to be in play, characters we could hire for cap combats? working out kinks, insisting on 750 limit, recourses?, no lets just rush it out and hope it works, i dont have the answers , not pissed he died pisssed he was intentionally fired on, after incopasitated, it thats how we want to play i look forward to playing that way with everyone. even tho i could have fired on them but didnt in past. dont bitch at me when i start redding people.
*Longo* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 9:58 am	darthspanky said: if this was meant to be fun its not working, go into a battle not knowing the odds, thinking this should be fun only to be outmatched in cr fight as hard as possible, have all mortars targeted on you, and when finally ko'd cant escape, playing for what? a recruitment bonus owe sweet, now once i get a guy 700 more lleader points i can finally hire because i wont be over  lmit, dont be surprized after smoking out joel i walk away give goat my lands, you guys play this system its not for me, i dont find it fun being held back because we want everyone to play. no thanks. find another guinnie pig. The CR was known before the fight for each side, it’s an approximate within 500 CR. I guess if you have angered/backstabbed/screwed over the majority of the 9 gangs you faced, most of their guns would be targeted on you. And guess what? They were. I posted in the forums before that your evil ways would catch up to you, and they have finally. Your sins have far exceeded any chance of gaining entry into the Church of Longo, but maybe someone will take you in as a follower if you started being...nicer.
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 10:05 am	longo go #### yourself, you will never know how glad im not part of your little group of players.
*sam* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 10:56 am	darthspanky said: whats the point of having gangers be allowed to escape, only to try it and it not works Were they at zero activity? a couple of people asked me about this one, and it's a good point - we probably should let you escape them even in that case, I think.  Anyone agree/disagree?  I'm happy to apply this retrospectively to yesterday's combat (and resurrect a couple) if so.
*sam* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 10:58 am	*The X Man* said: My understanding was anytime and under any condition, this escape feature would remove your character safely. So this will be brought to Sam's attention for review. After that, we all need to revisit this issue and come to a consensus on the specific conditions that allow the instant escape to work. This is a good point too - it's reasonable that people expected it to apply to unconscious characters; so even if we decide to continue to not allow it, I do need to show leniency to past battles.
*HarryRed* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 11:04 am	That battle could have been won if darth turned his buzzers the right way. all our guns were on the fire engines and there was nothing defending the mortars over the hill. If darth had run his buzzers at the mortars theres nothing we would have been able to do. But instead he floundered about in perfect mortar range not getting a single shot off. I get that it's easier in terms of honor to say that the battle was a foregone conclusion and it was unbalanced CR and thats why you lost but if anyone goes back and looks at the recording you will see loads of oppurtunities to win that werent taken due to poor decision making.
*sam* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 11:05 am	I honestly can't say what the precise intention of the rule was, other than to reduce ganger risk.  I did not intentionally apply it only to conscious characters - this was however a side-effect of where I wrote the code (that is, as an addition to the 'exit vehicle' code).  I wrote a heck of a lot of code in a short time to get all this stuff implemented.. loopholes and unintended stuff are to be expected. Regarding unintended stuff... we need to have a serious talk about camp fame gains from these. As it stands, one big victory and you can become untouchable and steamroll your opposition thereafter. Voice call this week, methinks...
*sam* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 11:10 am	*goat starer* said: Valiance said: It is amazing, as an outsider, how much PvP does not look like fun. :-) You seem to get so much enjoyment out of telling other people who are having fun that the things they are having fun at are not fun. I can't see how posting the same thing thousands of times into every discussion about PVP on the forum and the lobby is fun - but you clearly enjoy it . I guess fun is subjective. +1 The battle was great fun. There are kinks to work out. It's unfortunate that things can get argumentative, but we've done a good job so far of overcoming things and being friends again. Hopefully that will continue. Personally, I have become more friendly with almost everyone involved in this new system, and my opinion of them has increased.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 11:51 am	I can't seem to make quotes work... SAM said.... Regarding unintended stuff... we need to have a serious talk about camp fame gains from these. As it stands, one big victory and you can become untouchable and steamroll your opposition thereafter. My reply is: This fame gain is also likely to never be repeated in the future as killing gangers with James "T" Kirks stats and darths gang rep/fame will be extremely rare. If darth and X were able to escape their gangers following the turn they were KO'ed is the fame gain as extreme? EDITs: Quotes are hard....
Bigbadgreen86 Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:07 pm	*HarryRed* said: That battle could have been won if darth turned his buzzers the right way. all our guns were on the fire engines and there was nothing defending the mortars over the hill. If darth had run his buzzers at the mortars theres nothing we would have been able to do. But instead he floundered about in perfect mortar range not getting a single shot off. I get that it's easier in terms of honor to say that the battle was a foregone conclusion and it was unbalanced CR and thats why you lost but if anyone goes back and looks at the recording you will see loads of oppurtunities to win that werent taken due to poor decision making. Agreed.  Nothing against Spanky but that is what I saw.
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:08 pm	you shouldnt get anything from killing gangers like ive repeatedly said, makes people fake war for fame and why spend 7 mil buying sposorships for fame when you could just red someone, paid friend or enemy. i did see the opportunity, but saw the side group flanking the flag, shot them multiple times, went tor them thinking if i could stop them we might be able to hold out for more time controlling flag and for enouph time to win then bolt, thought speed could get me out of mortar range, but they got me.
Bigbadgreen86 Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:11 pm	*sam* said: darthspanky said: whats the point of having gangers be allowed to escape, only to try it and it not works Were they at zero activity? a couple of people asked me about this one, and it's a good point - we probably should let you escape them even in that case, I think.  Anyone agree/disagree?  I'm happy to apply this retrospectively to yesterday's combat (and resurrect a couple) if so. A bit of a slippery slope but why would an ko'ed ganger be able to escape under any circumstances?  Thought this game was all about risk and reward and I seem to recall something called permadeath.  #Mayhem
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:26 pm	*Longo* said: *Ninesticks* said: The question isn't what else he could have done in fairness Longo - it is whether the escape system worked as Sam intended. There are lots of other things he could have done but that isn't relevant. If he should have been able to click the character and escape and that wasn't available having being informed it should have been that pretty much settles the matter from my point of view. Nobody can tell what he was thinking and doing at his keyboard - that is pretty much a pointless avenue of discussion. If he couldn't do what he should have been able to do then logically and morally he is entitled to the benefit then he should receive the benefit of the doubt. Let me be clear just in case anyone is in doubt, I would be arguing this point no matter who it had happened to or what team they are on - it is simply fair and reasonable. This was known about for a month, as you have stated. So why was it not addressed or challenged until Darth loses a guy? Im all for it to work as discussed, but it doesnt, and has worked the other way for over a month, with several town hall discussions where it wasnt challenged or addressed or even brought up. So now we are going to address it and resurrect Darth's guy because he died and he complained? He could have saved his guy but was more worried about saving his buzzer and died.  Yes, it would have been nice had it been flagged and addressed but it wasn't. If it had and Darth was trying to escape his crew then his ganger would be alive and happy back wherever he came from. Are you suggesting that this shouldn't be the position he is put in because the bug hadn't been recognised and addressed? I appreciate things are a little tense but that doesn't seem particularly reasonable. I appreciate you want to apply an intention to his actions, but you simply don't know. Darth has stated he was trying to escape his character but couldn't. If I were in his place I wouldn't put a buzzer above the life of a highly skilled ganger - and nor would many people here (apart from a few complete daredevils) - so in balance I don't really think that it is all that likely. Weighing things up it all seems relatively straight forward to me - which is why you don't seem puzzling. I imagine you don't agree perhaps because it lessens your victory or bragging rights or whatever - but that shouldn't be the basis we use for making a choice is it?
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 12:35 pm	by all means keep him dead i dont care, but dont see much reward part only risk and its not worth it, imo. one last rant then you can all f yourselves. wanted to help andrew give him a mackenzie for competing in races that earn my camp fame. he comes to me yesterday saying longo/joel insist he doesnt race for me, in coe, they dont want competition, so they can earn easy fame for their camp and win best prizes new players have no chance of winning, but really guys hes good racer probly better than that me and he looks up to you guys, for reasons ill never understand, i dont want players like that in my camp, so eagar to be a part of this camp war stuff he lets you bully him to quit racing for me, so andrew your out good luck buddie. but your running with assholes imo.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:13 pm	So now we are going to discuss pvp fame bonus in this messy topic. Why not ...it actually is playing on my mind at the same time. Now i heard the embassy only lost...i forget exact number but like 60(?) Fame. Anyway that was less fame lost than a camp david battle where a single buccy was totalled(with no blue text!). I dont know how that was possible... so can we retro that too... that is a ridiculous comparison. This is a slippery slope as nine is asking for retro res from 3 weeks ago...hes probably right if captain kirk lives. The tertiary damage from some of the stuff about to get sam's Deus EX Machina....cannot be deus ex machina'd Darth has admitted he simply intends to troll camp wars right in this thread! This is not some scout where a player had a bpu dance and cries sam please fix my stuff. Its pvp its not so simple. Our side shot ..in some cases way too long at some vehicles since gangers are still inside(in vault battles esp) that is also a factor that cannot be retconed. You cannot take away darths new hate for everyone now either. This is a mess he could have avoided many many ways.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:20 pm	darthspanky said: by all means keep him dead i dont care, but dont see much reward part only risk and its not worth it, imo. one last rant then you can all f yourselves. wanted to help andrew give him a mackenzie for competing in races that earn my camp fame. he comes to me yesterday saying longo/joel insist he doesnt race for me, in coe, they dont want competition, so they can earn easy fame for their camp and win best prizes new players have no chance of winning, but really guys hes good racer probly better than that me and he looks up to you guys, for reasons ill never understand, i dont want players like that in my camp, so eagar to be a part of this camp war stuff he lets you bully him to quit racing for me, so andrew your out good luck buddie.  ut your running with assholes imo. We just told him you are a bad boss.  Im glad you just confirmed it.
darthspanky Posted Jun 15, 2020, 1:28 pm	i guesss if being a bad boss means training his guys to 100 scout and mech, giving him a makenzie for earning 15 fame im guilty but at least im not telling him who he can race for.