darthspanky Posted Jun 11, 2020, 10:40 am	maybe say after a certain distance hexwise you are from your camp an internal dispute pops up in the form of a old school defence based on how big you are could have multiple, and can keep a cr in reserve to help quash them.
*Rev. V* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 11:57 am	For some reason all I can see is Vyvyan with a cricket bat... "VIVA EL PRESIDENTE!"
FireFly Posted Jun 12, 2020, 1:19 pm	This was what I wanted to suggest with "Pirate camps/hotspots" showing up on the map. Instead of just losing tiles for the sake of it.
*sam* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 2:34 pm	The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners? On that basis, just having a random/automatic loss of tiles seems better to me. A good way of doing this was suggested before (by goat, I think): the chance is higher for a tile which you haven't been deploying any CR to.
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 6:10 pm	*Rev. V* said: For some reason all I can see is Vyvyan with a cricket bat... "VIVA EL PRESIDENTE!" So who is Neil and who is Rick with a silent P?
*Longo* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 6:45 pm	*sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7.
Tez Posted Jun 12, 2020, 6:53 pm	Then maybe a new camp role is needed, one that can do the Camp Wars stuff.
*sam* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 7:23 pm	*Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 7:57 pm	*sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control.
*sam* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 8:51 pm	*goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions?
*Longo* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 8:59 pm	*sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions? I do. Wait. There has been really alot thrown at us. Give a few more battles. And for those of you making suggestions and not involved, quit hugging each other and fight, then you might see what the rest of us are dealing with.
*sam* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 9:02 pm	*Longo* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions? I do. Wait. There has been really alot thrown at us. Give a few more battles. And for those of you making suggestions and not involved, quit hugging each other and fight, then you might see what the rest of us are dealing with. I *think* Longo and goat both might have misunderstood my stance on this.  I was saying it would be a bad idea to add NPC defences on tiles. I'm absolutely not suggesting we add more housekeeping.
FireFly Posted Jun 12, 2020, 9:02 pm	Start of each deployment, have a chance for "Bandit camps/hotspot" to show up on a few tiles around evan, maybe with a restriction so they cannot appear within 2-3 tiles of an active camp. Assign these hotspots/pirates a CR rating, if the CR rating is not deployed on the tile to police/destroy it you lose it at the start or end of the second week. Possibly make the hotspot/raid camp take additional tiles on subsequent week if not dealt with. If they are on a neutral tile it could serve as a CR roadblock. Note, I am not intending this to provoke a client combat (altough maybe that could be an option if someone chooses to?), merely deploying the required CR on the tile will automatically deal with it. If this doesn't make much sense I can try to reword it and try to explain better, but I think it would be a very thematic and good to deal with tile atrittion.
*Longo* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 9:05 pm	*sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions? I do. Wait. There has been really alot thrown at us. Give a few more battles. And for those of you making suggestions and not involved, quit hugging each other and fight, then you might see what the rest of us are dealing with. I *think* Longo and goat both might have misunderstood my stance on this.  I was saying it would be a bad idea to add NPC defences on tiles. I'm absolutely not suggesting we add more housekeeping. No, I understand Sam. Its just the community saying lets do this, lets do that, and all that stuff takes time. Some of these people saying lets make it so this or that happens, havent even been in a battle yet.
*Rev. V* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 9:22 pm	When Madhat took his "I'm not dealing with anything related to camp stuff" hiatus, I ran his camp for months. (Only time I ever actually "owned" a camp) There was SERIOUS weight lifted off of my shoulders when he asked for it back. And this was back when I played all the time. I had stupid amounts of free time then. Now add all of the new stuff? Oh, I get where you are coming from Longo, yes sir, I do.....
*goat starer* Posted Jun 12, 2020, 11:31 pm	*sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions? I completely understood your point and your commitment to reduce unnecessary time drains of camp wars / ownership. I simply think we should be doing more about reducing the time commitment... i would personally: - set limits on the number of occupied spaces a camp can move into - increase the minimum CR to take a tile so you cant spread out as quickly - increase CR degradation as you move away from camp (add a multipler to hex reduction that increases the further away from camp you are) - introduce a (controversial) auto lose if one camps CR is wildly outweighed by anothers (possibly only after a certain number of hexes from camp) - introduce a tile degradation that means tiles you own but fail to occupy turn neutral so you have to apply CR inside your area. all of those things will slow camp expansion, reduce the number of combats, stop pointless combats.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 13, 2020, 1:42 am	*goat starer* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions? I completely understood your point and your commitment to reduce unnecessary time drains of camp wars / ownership. I simply think we should be doing more about reducing the time commitment... i would personally: - set limits on the number of occupied spaces a camp can move into - increase the minimum CR to take a tile so you cant spread out as quickly - increase CR degradation as you move away from camp (add a multipler to hex reduction that increases the further away from camp you are) - introduce a (controversial) auto lose if one camps CR is wildly outweighed by anothers (possibly only after a certain number of hexes from camp) - introduce a tile degradation that means tiles you own but fail to occupy turn neutral so you have to apply CR inside your area. all of those things will slow camp expansion, reduce the number of combats, stop pointless combats. Being honest... many of these things are good ideas.  I will not discuss on the forum the details.  Sam should add all these points to the next discord call.
darthspanky Posted Jun 13, 2020, 2:12 am	FireFly said: Start of each deployment, have a chance for "Bandit camps/hotspot" to show up on a few tiles around evan, maybe with a restriction so they cannot appear within 2-3 tiles of an active camp. Assign these hotspots/pirates a CR rating, if the CR rating is not deployed on the tile to police/destroy it you lose it at the start or end of the second week. Possibly make the hotspot/raid camp take additional tiles on subsequent week if not dealt with. If they are on a neutral tile it could serve as a CR roadblock. Note, I am not intending this to provoke a client combat (altough maybe that could be an option if someone chooses to?), merely deploying the required CR on the tile will automatically deal with it. If this doesn't make much sense I can try to reword it and try to explain better, but I think it would be a very thematic and good to deal with tile atrittion. maybe a camp owner who has one of these pop up in his territory can assign a player and let his squad do the fight, like a camp defence? give him a cr reseerve for this that maybe he didnt have to use on a deploy more cr fast on defence, so any deployable unused cr never gets burned up so you could save it for large battle down the road? or if a large stock of reserve deployable cr that wasnt used you could auto win by spending more reserve cr to crush riots cr than a player could deploy with? 2 to 1 ratio. could even make these mission relatable somehow, and player merc's could travel around evan crushing them out? or a allied faction player trucing them. and make it so you can do the opposite, take less tithe and reduce road costs for allied factions, and ssoon celebrations of people being happy break out lol
FireFly Posted Jun 13, 2020, 4:37 am	darthspanky said: FireFly said: Start of each deployment, have a chance for "Bandit camps/hotspot" to show up on a few tiles around evan, maybe with a restriction so they cannot appear within 2-3 tiles of an active camp. Assign these hotspots/pirates a CR rating, if the CR rating is not deployed on the tile to police/destroy it you lose it at the start or end of the second week. Possibly make the hotspot/raid camp take additional tiles on subsequent week if not dealt with. If they are on a neutral tile it could serve as a CR roadblock. Note, I am not intending this to provoke a client combat (altough maybe that could be an option if someone chooses to?), merely deploying the required CR on the tile will automatically deal with it. If this doesn't make much sense I can try to reword it and try to explain better, but I think it would be a very thematic and good to deal with tile atrittion. maybe a camp owner who has one of these pop up in his territory can assign a player and let his squad do the fight, like a camp defence? give him a cr reseerve for this that maybe he didnt have to use on a deploy more cr fast on defence, so any deployable unused cr never gets burned up so you could save it for large battle down the road? or if a large stock of reserve deployable cr that wasnt used you could auto win by spending more reserve cr to crush riots cr than a player could deploy with? 2 to 1 ratio. could even make these mission relatable somehow, and player merc's could travel around evan crushing them out? or a allied faction player trucing them. and make it so you can do the opposite, take less tithe and reduce road costs for allied factions, and ssoon celebrations of people being happy break out lol its very important they can be resolved by cr deployment alone. Last thing we need is more battles for open pvp camps. But it would surely have potential down the line for pve stuff as well, if such an idea gets a solid base.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:30 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: The question is whether this adds extra "work" for the camp owners?  Its becoming overwhelming for me, and I am presently at home 24/7. Exactly. One of the ways we're trying to promote camp wars is by removing the "housekeeping" work of npc battles. It's not enough. I have a family and a job that is often having me work till 10pm. I'm home educating. I'm already woken up every few hours at night by a baby. Add to that all the potential combats and it is quickly spiraling out of control. Do you have suggestions? I completely understood your point and your commitment to reduce unnecessary time drains of camp wars / ownership. I simply think we should be doing more about reducing the time commitment... i would personally: - set limits on the number of occupied spaces a camp can move into - increase the minimum CR to take a tile so you cant spread out as quickly - increase CR degradation as you move away from camp (add a multipler to hex reduction that increases the further away from camp you are) - introduce a (controversial) auto lose if one camps CR is wildly outweighed by anothers (possibly only after a certain number of hexes from camp) - introduce a tile degradation that means tiles you own but fail to occupy turn neutral so you have to apply CR inside your area. all of those things will slow camp expansion, reduce the number of combats, stop pointless combats. Being honest... many of these things are good ideas.  I will not discuss on the forum the details.  Sam should add all these points to the next discord call. thanks joel... lets talk about these in a proper call.
*sam* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:41 pm	Joel said: Being honest... many of these things are good ideas.  I will not discuss on the forum the details.  Sam should add all these points to the next discord call. 2 of those 5 points *were* on the last call, but rejected by the attendees (for now)
*goat starer* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:44 pm	*sam* said: Joel said: Being honest... many of these things are good ideas.  I will not discuss on the forum the details.  Sam should add all these points to the next discord call. 2 of those 5 points *were* on the last call, but rejected by the attendees (for now) was it 4 and 5? i can understand that they are the most difficult ones. and it might be that some of the other ones would render them unnecessary.# but lets be simply practical here. if Zombieville really went to war with its neighbours right now it could create over 35 separate battles. That is crazy.
*sam* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:48 pm	It was 3 and 4. 5 definitely has merit too. (Well, so do 1 and 2). But I can't make changes if the players decide against it.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:50 pm	*sam* said: It was 3 and 4. 5 definitely has merit too. interesting... i have never seen 3 mentioned anywhere before. did you come up with it? personally i think its the most important one. I'm not quite convinced that you cant make changes without player approval (or that you have always had it for previous changes). But it is obviously better to get a consensus.
FireFly Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:56 pm	Further CR reduction on distance was kind of rejected before it even got to the "How" bit of it, at least that's what I recall. Personally not against the idea, that and I still think 4500cr is way to high for a battle.
*sam* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 10:56 pm	Quote: - increase CR degradation as you move away from camp (add a multipler to hex reduction that increases the further away from camp you are) No, sorry.. it wasn't discussed in that exact form. We discussed CR attenuation rates generally. People decided they were ok to leave for now. Addiding a second component to the calculation of attenuation (based on distance from camp) seems like it might be unnecessary complication to me.  Could tweaking the CR effects of different terrain types not do the same job?
*sam* Posted Jun 13, 2020, 11:01 pm	*goat starer* said: But it is obviously better to get a consensus. It wasn't a case of split opinion. Literally no one supported those points. I personally think that auto-win combats would be a huge improvement.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 14, 2020, 7:47 am	*sam* said: Quote: - increase CR degradation as you move away from camp (add a multipler to hex reduction that increases the further away from camp you are) No, sorry.. it wasn't discussed in that exact form. We discussed CR attenuation rates generally. People decided they were ok to leave for now. Addiding a second component to the calculation of attenuation (based on distance from camp) seems like it might be unnecessary complication to me.  Could tweaking the CR effects of different terrain types not do the same job? That wouldn’t make it proportionally more difficult as you get further away. It would be linear.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 14, 2020, 7:56 am	*sam* said: *goat starer* said: But it is obviously better to get a consensus. It wasn't a case of split opinion. Literally no one supported those points. I personally think that auto-win combats would be a huge improvement. I think part of the issue with auto win was that it was mooted at 4 to 1 odds. I can see how Someone with Uber Gangers and rgms might feel they could win that (or at least inflict damage). But we are talking about battles to date with 16 to 1 odds that people were forced to play in the middle of the night. I’m not sure anyone honestly thinks they can get a result from that type of fight. How people react to a suggestion depends very much on how that suggestion is formed and framed.... and who turns up on discord at a specific time  is not the whole of opinion.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 14, 2020, 11:46 pm	*goat starer* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: But it is obviously better to get a consensus. It wasn't a case of split opinion. Literally no one supported those points. I personally think that auto-win combats would be a huge improvement. I think part of the issue with auto win was that it was mooted at 4 to 1 odds. I can see how Someone with Uber Gangers and rgms might feel they could win that (or at least inflict damage). But we are talking about battles to date with 16 to 1 odds that people were forced to play in the middle of the night. I’m not sure anyone honestly thinks they can get a result from that type of fight. How people react to a suggestion depends very much on how that suggestion is formed and framed.... and who turns up on discord at a specific time  is not the whole of opinion. Auto win- yes... i dont know the correct ratio.  4:1 i feel like is doable, if i had better luck(some better skill too).  Maybe its 5:1.  Now that defender has some reserve perhaps this is much more palatable.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 15, 2020, 9:02 am	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: But it is obviously better to get a consensus. It wasn't a case of split opinion. Literally no one supported those points. I personally think that auto-win combats would be a huge improvement. I think part of the issue with auto win was that it was mooted at 4 to 1 odds. I can see how Someone with Uber Gangers and rgms might feel they could win that (or at least inflict damage). But we are talking about battles to date with 16 to 1 odds that people were forced to play in the middle of the night. I’m not sure anyone honestly thinks they can get a result from that type of fight. How people react to a suggestion depends very much on how that suggestion is formed and framed.... and who turns up on discord at a specific time  is not the whole of opinion. Auto win- yes... i dont know the correct ratio.  4:1 i feel like is doable, if i had better luck(some better skill too).  Maybe its 5:1.  Now that defender has some reserve perhaps this is much more palatable. I would be happy with even 6 or 7 to 1. At the moment you can dump a single car onto a hex and force a combat even if the opponents move their whole CR there. That just seem out of whack. as joel says the reserve should mean that a hex that is important is not ceded without option. Also by "auto win" i don't think there should be any 'loss' for the opposition other than control of the hex. it's just a tactical withdrawal. Possibly the name is not doing it any favours.