*sam* Posted Jun 3, 2020, 10:50 am	Just a heads-up about things I'm tweaking at the moment: 1. Squads with a player 'missing' who should be there since they have CR involved, will lose 0.1 King of the Hill points per vehicle per turn that the player is missing. It will take 2 consecutive turns of absence for this to kick in (just in case of client crashes etc.) Just clarifying how I'm implementing this: the points are lost if a vehicle is being controlled by someone in the same team who is other than the correct owner. So being logged in and AFK won't be a work around. It also means if your cars are dead you're free to leave. As long as no-one else from your team takes control of them you're ok. Obviously there are still tweaks to make regarding how much CR a combat can have, and how much a player is allowed to have in a squad. As you probably know, I have ideas about this but we're holding off making changes for now. Anyone with a big battle upcoming can agree between you and talk to me about it in the meantime- I can make one-off changes for individual battles (e.g. one idea which I like is to reduce the bigger squad to 4000CR and reduce the smaller one in proportion). 2. System-defined combat times will change from being 1 day away, to being a 9 days away by default, i.e. camp update day being Friday - combats will be scheduled from the Sunday of the following week, and the system will work backwards until it finds a slot (so most suggested times will be Sunday or Saturday). This gives players much longer to prepare and to discuss a better time.
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 3, 2020, 11:17 am	Great news on the scheduling tweaks, thanks Sam. If you are going to do the cap and proportion thing (and you know how I feel about that) you should make the higher level a multiple of the individual player cap perhaps. Just so that I am sure that I am getting the proportion thing straight. Camp A brings 6000 cr Camp B brings 3000 cr. Camp A has a 3k advantage. Camp A is reduced to 4000 or a 33% decrease. Camp B is reduced by the same proportion to 2000 cr. So now Camp A has only a 2k advantage. Yes it is still double, but not the same by a long way.
*sam* Posted Jun 3, 2020, 11:44 am	*Ninesticks* said: Just so that I am sure that I am getting the proportion thing straight. Camp A brings 6000 cr Camp B brings 3000 cr. Camp A has a 3k advantage. Camp A is reduced to 4000 or a 33% decrease. Camp B is reduced by the same proportion to 2000 cr. So now Camp A has only a 2k advantage. Yes it is still double, but not the same by a long way. That's correct. Just to reiterate, though:  it's currently an *option* that camps have, if they agree between them. No firm decision yet about making it mandatory. There are certainly other approaches we could use. Another option is: have no CR caps for the combat as a whole. Increase per-player CR to (say) 750+10% of total. Perhaps reduce turn limit to 100.
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 3, 2020, 12:09 pm	Ah ok, thanks for highlighting that currently it is an option - most helpful. A lower individual cr cap plus a percentage seems reasonable.
darthspanky Posted Jun 3, 2020, 12:14 pm	maybe im not getting this proportional thing? what happens to the extra 2000cr in the above example they put in 6000cr and end up only getting to use 4000cr, wouldnt it be better to cap the cr at 4000?, they could have deployed that 2000cr to another tile, now they are loosing the 2000cr that they deployed?
*sam* Posted Jun 3, 2020, 12:17 pm	darthspanky said: maybe im not getting this proportional thing? what happens to the extra 2000cr in the above example they put in 6000cr and end up only getting to use 4000cr, wouldnt it be better to cap the cr at 4000?, they could have deployed that 2000cr to another tile, now they are loosing the 2000cr that they deployed? A hard cap would be worse, IMO, as it would mean a stronger camp would have no way of guaranteeing domination on a tile they really wanted to win. They're not "losing" the CR, all that's happening is that the combat is being played out at a reduced size. It's a "representation" of a bigger battle but with more manageable squad sizes. CR deployed like this is a total abstraction anyway.
darthspanky Posted Jun 3, 2020, 12:25 pm	ah ok thanks
*Longo* Posted Jun 5, 2020, 4:52 pm	*sam* said: 2. System-defined combat times will change from being 1 day away, to being a 9 days away by default, i.e. camp update day being Friday - combats will be scheduled from the Sunday of the following week, and the system will work backwards until it finds a slot (so most suggested times will be Sunday or Saturday). This gives players much longer to prepare and to discuss a better time. So we can now deploy (Friday 6/5) thru next Friday? And then battles "can" occur from Next Friday(6/12) to the following Friday(6/21), but likely will be scheduled 6/20 or 6/21? Im a bit confused maybe, as other might be.
*sam* Posted Jun 5, 2020, 5:21 pm	*Longo* said: *sam* said: 2. System-defined combat times will change from being 1 day away, to being a 9 days away by default, i.e. camp update day being Friday - combats will be scheduled from the Sunday of the following week, and the system will work backwards until it finds a slot (so most suggested times will be Sunday or Saturday). This gives players much longer to prepare and to discuss a better time. So we can now deploy (Friday 6/5) thru next Friday? And then battles "can" occur from Next Friday(6/12) to the following Friday(6/21), but likely will be scheduled 6/20 or 6/21? Im a bit confused maybe, as other might be. So we can now deploy (Friday 6/5) thru next Friday? Yes And then battles "can" occur from Next Friday(6/12) to the following Friday(6/21) 6/21 is a Sunday - but yes, that's correct. Actually a couple of days after, i.e. 6/23 or so would still be ok. As long as they don't encroach on the next cycle of battle scheduling, starting 6/26, they're ok. but likely will be scheduled 6/20 or 6/21? Yes. This is of course 2 days into deployment week, but that's fine. Any hexes changing hands during deployment week will trigger a reset of deployed CR for the camps involved (just in case the deployments made become illegal, and also to deal with changed overall camp CR).
darthspanky Posted Jun 5, 2020, 5:38 pm	what happens if they wont resquedule? i often work on weekends in the evening but usually home from work around 9pm 0300 server time? the open hours at camp show this as i open them up at 9pm, should i open more hours to help computer schedule them?
*sam* Posted Jun 5, 2020, 8:19 pm	It picks a time from the defending camp's open hours.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 5, 2020, 11:05 pm	*sam* said: It picks a time from the defending camp's open hours. there has to be a better way of doing this something like offering a range of times and getting people to rank them and choosing the one that works best for both. failing that it should obviously be the attacker that gets the precedence on time. the attacker would be choosing the time to attack not the defender. D Day wans't timed to suit the germans.
*Splurs* Posted Jun 5, 2020, 11:31 pm	The problem with the attacker sorting out a time is that the attacker can essentially cheat and program it for a time they know the defender wont be able to play it, like as darth said he works. Granted the attacker gets to plan the attack, but that is REAL LIFE, not a game. We all knows what happens when you throw an even CR matched battle against the AI, it is a slaughter. Programing it against the defenders camp open hours is fair IMO, as the time is a time you know the defender will be able to play it.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 12:10 am	*Splurs* said: The problem with the attacker sorting out a time is that the attacker can essentially cheat and program it for a time they know the defender wont be able to play it, like as darth said he works. Granted the attacker gets to plan the attack, but that is REAL LIFE, not a game. We all knows what happens when you throw an even CR matched battle against the AI, it is a slaughter. Programing it against the defenders camp open hours is fair IMO, as the time is a time you know the defender will be able to play it. but basically that's what happens automatically with the US and Europe. Typical US camp opening times throw Europe into the middle of the night / early hours of the morning. typical Europe opening times throw the US into nice early evening slots. i cant think of any logical reason why the defenders time should be more relevant than the attackers. Its all a share map.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 6, 2020, 12:29 am	I guess ban NA players... dunno. Thought you had guys all over the world...
*goat starer* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 12:40 am	Joel Autobaun said: I guess ban NA players i think that is just a tiny bit strong... maybe just give them some kind of teenager temper tantrum pool to play in? but seriously Joel... I know you are not thick enough to not understand how a globe and time zones work. sure we have players around the world (US, Canada, Europe, Australia) but only one of those players is not in the same longitudinal hemisphere as the others. the language bias of the game make it western hemisphere and that automatically gives it a weird time assignment that favours US players in this context. that is just a fact.. its not disputable. Any player who really wants these pvp wars to work would be looking to find a way to make time matching work for everyone.. not for their camps. We know there are times when we are all online so lets work around those. Come and join us on the plain of cooperative game building instead of sniping from the edges.
darthspanky Posted Jun 6, 2020, 6:22 am	maybe if they wont resedule the deul, the camp owner not being able to make that specific time can like cancel or delay the fight at that time and make whoever gets to set the time to choose another time? on days im off i can rework any schedule i have to meet that time, but wont call off work to fight on a time that i can fight a day later.
*Longo* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 8:33 am	It’s like in COE. Try and negotiate if the time didn’t work for you. If the other team doesn’t want to, the you show up or forfeit. It’s been played out like this for years in that league already. If your not a jerk, the I would think most likely a good time can be negotiated. If your a jerk, well you dig your own grave. If you don’t like the defending camps open times, don’t attack them. Some of these suggestions are pretty sillly.
*sam* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 10:30 am	I'm with Longo on this one. There's give and take here, even though you're competing with someone.  If you act like a jerk in rescheduling this time, you know just what to expect next time when the roles are reversed and you need to reschedule. One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open?
*Longo* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 10:55 am	*sam* said: One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open? Yes.
darthspanky Posted Jun 6, 2020, 12:06 pm	would opening up more camp hours work? just keep the ones closed when im at work? whose the defender if both move into a neutral tile?
*sam* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 12:59 pm	darthspanky said: would opening up more camp hours work? just keep the ones closed when im at work? When I have changed the code to look for slots that suit both camps, yes. Quote: whose the defender if both move into a neutral tile? Moves are done in random order, so whoever moved first becomes defender.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 6, 2020, 8:17 pm	*sam* said: I'm with Longo on this one. There's give and take here, even though you're competing with someone.  If you act like a jerk in rescheduling this time, you know just what to expect next time when the roles are reversed and you need to reschedule. One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open? I would be with longo on this were it not a simple fact that the worst US players get from Europe camp hours is an afternoon slot. We get 4am from theirs. Finding a time that is as close to both as possible is likely to make that worse. How about camps get to choose certain hours that cannot be chosen? 8 hours open, 8 hours neutral, 8 hours unavailable... And the server chooses: 1st) a time when both are open If impossible.. 2nd) a time when the defending camp is open that is in the neutral times for the attacker 3rd) a time when the defending camp is neutral and the attacking camp is open 4th) a time when both are neutral
ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Jun 6, 2020, 10:27 pm	DW is turn based, we could play a turn a day. But it will take a year an event. It would be like role playing Conan by mail as was done years ago.
Valiance Posted Jun 6, 2020, 10:42 pm	Makes it just like Car Wars, then :-)
*Rev. V* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 12:54 am	"It would be like role playing Conan by mail as was done years ago. " Oh daaaaaaaamn....you really hit the "way back" machine there....
*Longo* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 2:17 am	Can we just use a 20 sided die roll to settle this?
FireFly Posted Jun 7, 2020, 4:32 am	Great idea Longo, Settle it with a D20+(CR/1000) roll, rounded up!
*sam* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:51 am	*goat starer* said: *sam* said: I'm with Longo on this one. There's give and take here, even though you're competing with someone.  If you act like a jerk in rescheduling this time, you know just what to expect next time when the roles are reversed and you need to reschedule. One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open? I would be with longo on this were it not a simple fact that the worst US players get from Europe camp hours is an afternoon slot. We get 4am from theirs. Finding a time that is as close to both as possible is likely to make that worse. How about camps get to choose certain hours that cannot be chosen? 8 hours open, 8 hours neutral, 8 hours unavailable... And the server chooses: 1st) a time when both are open If impossible.. 2nd) a time when the defending camp is open that is in the neutral times for the attacker 3rd) a time when the defending camp is neutral and the attacking camp is open 4th) a time when both are neutral Yeah, this makes sense. It will take a bit of work so hopefully I'll have it in before next Friday.
FireFly Posted Jun 7, 2020, 2:11 pm	So the defender is basically expected to have 16 hours open to defend? Because that's what it sounds like. Seems to me the attacker can just "veto" the defenders 8 favorable open hours to make it inconvenient for the defender. Also renders choosing less than 8 open hours and taking the production hit for it moot, something that was still a choice last I checked. I can't help but feel that the few defenders advantages there are (and there are not many) are getting stripped away in the name of convenience for the attacker.
*Longo* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 2:45 pm	*sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: I'm with Longo on this one. There's give and take here, even though you're competing with someone.  If you act like a jerk in rescheduling this time, you know just what to expect next time when the roles are reversed and you need to reschedule. One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open? I would be with longo on this were it not a simple fact that the worst US players get from Europe camp hours is an afternoon slot. We get 4am from theirs. Finding a time that is as close to both as possible is likely to make that worse. How about camps get to choose certain hours that cannot be chosen? 8 hours open, 8 hours neutral, 8 hours unavailable... And the server chooses: 1st) a time when both are open If impossible.. 2nd) a time when the defending camp is open that is in the neutral times for the attacker 3rd) a time when the defending camp is neutral and the attacking camp is open 4th) a time when both are neutral Yeah, this makes sense. It will take a bit of work so hopefully I'll have it in before next Friday. This doesnt make sense. I have to set 16 hours aside a day for Darkwind. I work 10. I TRY to sleep 6. That leaves about 8 hours a day for me to do everything else, including Darkwind. Not all of us work from home and are flexible. As I said before, if your not a jerk scheduling can be adjusted to benefit both. If your a jerk and dont negotiate the time, it will eventually bite you back. The attacker has the ability to see the defenders hours before he attacks. He can, under your new coding, effectively open his camp up for one of the defender's hours and make that time the battle time. Thats a pretty good option.
*Rev. V* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 3:08 pm	Just a question...if the two sides come to an agreement on a time that works for everyone...does the camp even NEED to BE open to fight the battle?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 4:20 pm	I mean it is kinda nice of them to pretend to discuss this stuff on the forum though. Anyone else reminded of that Simpsons episode where the friend of Homer lets him design the new car for his company?
*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 4:26 pm	In an uncharacteristically blunt post I have to say that the complaints seem like a load of old bollocks. Unless you plan to be entirely defensive in Camp Wars (and why would you) then being able to have three states for your camp rather than two seems like a boon. Three states allows a camp owner to be able to better influence when a combat might take place rather than the arbitray half way point we get which means you have to be available 24 hours. This suggestion doesn't eradicate that, but it certainly helps minimise it. Given that it is the defender's neutral hours that are tested first the advantage, to some degree, remains with the defender.
*sam* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 5:17 pm	Joel Autobaun said: I mean it is kinda nice of them to pretend to discuss this stuff on the forum though. Anyone else reminded of that Simpsons episode where the friend of Homer lets him design the new car for his company? Who are "they" ?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 5:20 pm	It is painfully clear, whatever goat says, get's implemented.
*sam* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 5:20 pm	Joel Autobaun said: It is painfully clear, whatever goat says, get's implemented. Bull####
Tez Posted Jun 7, 2020, 5:29 pm	How does the game determine Camp War times right now?
*sam* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 6:09 pm	Tez said: How does the game determine Camp War times right now? From the defending camp's open hours
Tez Posted Jun 7, 2020, 6:11 pm	So we have 16 hours to get ready for instead of 8?
*sam* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 6:16 pm	*Longo* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: I'm with Longo on this one. There's give and take here, even though you're competing with someone.  If you act like a jerk in rescheduling this time, you know just what to expect next time when the roles are reversed and you need to reschedule. One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open? I would be with longo on this were it not a simple fact that the worst US players get from Europe camp hours is an afternoon slot. We get 4am from theirs. Finding a time that is as close to both as possible is likely to make that worse. How about camps get to choose certain hours that cannot be chosen? 8 hours open, 8 hours neutral, 8 hours unavailable... And the server chooses: 1st) a time when both are open If impossible.. 2nd) a time when the defending camp is open that is in the neutral times for the attacker 3rd) a time when the defending camp is neutral and the attacking camp is open 4th) a time when both are neutral Yeah, this makes sense. It will take a bit of work so hopefully I'll have it in before next Friday. This doesnt make sense. I have to set 16 hours aside a day for Darkwind. I work 10. I TRY to sleep 6. That leaves about 8 hours a day for me to do everything else, including Darkwind. Not all of us work from home and are flexible. As I said before, if your not a jerk scheduling can be adjusted to benefit both. If your a jerk and dont negotiate the time, it will eventually bite you back. The attacker has the ability to see the defenders hours before he attacks. He can, under your new coding, effectively open his camp up for one of the defender's hours and make that time the battle time. Thats a pretty good option.   I think you're missing the point. As Ninesticks said, this change would be giving you more opportunity to influence the time - on top of the ones you *want* to use for camp wars (which is all you have now), you'd also get to say ones which you definitely do *not* want. Therefore the system has more info to pick a time which is not terrible for you.  The fallback is, as always, a re-negotiation of the time between the 2 owners. Quote: The attacker has the ability to see the defenders hours before he attacks. He can, under your new coding, effectively open his camp up for one of the defender's hours and make that time the battle time. Thats a pretty good option. That's a good point.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 8:40 pm	*sam* said: Joel Autobaun said: It is painfully clear, whatever goat says, get's implemented. Bull#### Lol... If only he knew all the nonsense I suggest! But seriously... I think the issue here may be that, being an award winning games designer with a trophy and all, my suggestions are always awesome.  Other people simply need to up their suggestions game.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 8:41 pm	*sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: *goat starer* said: *sam* said: I'm with Longo on this one. There's give and take here, even though you're competing with someone.  If you act like a jerk in rescheduling this time, you know just what to expect next time when the roles are reversed and you need to reschedule. One change that's probably worth doing though with the system-chosen times is (a) find a time that both camps are open (if possible), and failing that (b) find a time that's as close as possible to when both are open? I would be with longo on this were it not a simple fact that the worst US players get from Europe camp hours is an afternoon slot. We get 4am from theirs. Finding a time that is as close to both as possible is likely to make that worse. How about camps get to choose certain hours that cannot be chosen? 8 hours open, 8 hours neutral, 8 hours unavailable... And the server chooses: 1st) a time when both are open If impossible.. 2nd) a time when the defending camp is open that is in the neutral times for the attacker 3rd) a time when the defending camp is neutral and the attacking camp is open 4th) a time when both are neutral Yeah, this makes sense. It will take a bit of work so hopefully I'll have it in before next Friday. This doesnt make sense. I have to set 16 hours aside a day for Darkwind. I work 10. I TRY to sleep 6. That leaves about 8 hours a day for me to do everything else, including Darkwind. Not all of us work from home and are flexible. As I said before, if your not a jerk scheduling can be adjusted to benefit both. If your a jerk and dont negotiate the time, it will eventually bite you back. The attacker has the ability to see the defenders hours before he attacks. He can, under your new coding, effectively open his camp up for one of the defender's hours and make that time the battle time. Thats a pretty good option.   I think you're missing the point. As Ninesticks said, this change would be giving you more opportunity to influence the time - on top of the ones you *want* to use for camp wars (which is all you have now), you'd also get to say ones which you definitely do *not* want. Therefore the system has more info to pick a time which is not terrible for you.  The fallback is, as always, a re-negotiation of the time between the 2 owners. Quote: The attacker has the ability to see the defenders hours before he attacks. He can, under your new coding, effectively open his camp up for one of the defender's hours and make that time the battle time. Thats a pretty good option. That's a good point. Is it.. how do I get to see the defenders opening hours?
FireFly Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:14 pm	*goat starer* said: Is it.. how do I get to see the defenders opening hours?
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:17 pm	I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:25 pm	*goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt.
*sam* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:37 pm	*goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. Sure! I'll do it by Thursday.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:37 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:42 pm	*goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help? Would be great if you refrain from PMs during matches Threatening Sam's wrath.  That would help immensely.
darthspanky Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:42 pm	i think hes just nervous, that 13800 cr is going to be bearing down on his camp from one direction while bill cr is comming from another, but thats just my guess.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:50 pm	darthspanky said: i think hes just nervous, that 13800 cr is going to be bearing down on his camp from one direction while bill cr is comming from another, but thats just my guess. bbbbut I thought we had a deal??
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:52 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help? Would be great if you refrain from PMs during matches Threatening Sam's wrath.  That would help immensely. You mean the one where I reminded you about the discussion you were part of about the potential sanctions for exploits and time griefing? I was being helpful. I know you didn't really want to incur that stuff and I thought it might help to remind you about the things we discussed whilst you were wasting the time of 4 people (and you) and trying to use an obvious exploit to score a pointless win. Next time i will do it in open chat but j didn't want to make you look a bit silly in.public for doing things you had actively participated in a discussion about avoiding. Apologies if my attempt to help offended you. I will not do.it again.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 9:56 pm	*goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help? Would be great if you refrain from PMs during matches Threatening Sam's wrath.  That would help immensely. You mean the one where I reminded you about the discussion you were part of about the potential sanctions for exploits and time griefing? I was being helpful. I know you didn't really want to incur that stuff and I thought it might help to remind you about the things we discussed whilst you were wasting the time of 4 people (and you) and trying to use an obvious exploit to score a pointless win. Next time i will do it in open chat but j didn't want to make you look a bit silly in.public for doing things you had actively participated in a discussion about avoiding. Apologies if my attempt to help offended you. I will not do.it again. Ok great , thanks.  Would be helpful to get the PMs from Sam explaining I should not show up for matches or else I am time griefing.  I dont need to hear this from you....another player (supposedly or game designer??)
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:13 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help? Would be great if you refrain from PMs during matches Threatening Sam's wrath.  That would help immensely. You mean the one where I reminded you about the discussion you were part of about the potential sanctions for exploits and time griefing? I was being helpful. I know you didn't really want to incur that stuff and I thought it might help to remind you about the things we discussed whilst you were wasting the time of 4 people (and you) and trying to use an obvious exploit to score a pointless win. Next time i will do it in open chat but j didn't want to make you look a bit silly in.public for doing things you had actively participated in a discussion about avoiding. Apologies if my attempt to help offended you. I will not do.it again. Ok great , thanks.  Would be helpful to get the PMs from Sam explaining I should not show up for matches or else I am time griefing.  I dont need to hear this from you....another player (supposedly or game designer??) 'Award winning' please. I don't forget your honourifics. Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). But you know this.. because you were in the video meeting where we discussed it. So let's just put it in the past and we can all play nicely in the future. We have forgiven you. If you felt offended by my pointing out that you were doing things that you agreed were an obvious issue then I hope you can forgive me too.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:15 pm	*goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help? Would be great if you refrain from PMs during matches Threatening Sam's wrath.  That would help immensely. You mean the one where I reminded you about the discussion you were part of about the potential sanctions for exploits and time griefing? I was being helpful. I know you didn't really want to incur that stuff and I thought it might help to remind you about the things we discussed whilst you were wasting the time of 4 people (and you) and trying to use an obvious exploit to score a pointless win. Next time i will do it in open chat but j didn't want to make you look a bit silly in.public for doing things you had actively participated in a discussion about avoiding. Apologies if my attempt to help offended you. I will not do.it again. Ok great , thanks.  Would be helpful to get the PMs from Sam explaining I should not show up for matches or else I am time griefing.  I dont need to hear this from you....another player (supposedly or game designer??) 'Award winning' please. I don't forget your honourifics. Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). But you know this.. because you were in the video meeting where we discussed it. So let's just put it in the past and we can all play nicely in the future. We have forgiven you. If you felt offended by my pointing out that you were doing things that you agreed were an obvious issue then I hope you can forgive me too. It was competitive.  Camp David got 15 fame for the match.  Most people would think that's worth it.  I'm sorry we didn't just roll over for you - but it looks like things are going to be easier.  Try to be happier when you are easily winning.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:21 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I don't see that when I click.on a camp. But surely removing it would be really easy. By Friday no doubt. You seem angry about something? Was it forgetting to put crew in your car? Is there anything I can do to help? Would be great if you refrain from PMs during matches Threatening Sam's wrath.  That would help immensely. You mean the one where I reminded you about the discussion you were part of about the potential sanctions for exploits and time griefing? I was being helpful. I know you didn't really want to incur that stuff and I thought it might help to remind you about the things we discussed whilst you were wasting the time of 4 people (and you) and trying to use an obvious exploit to score a pointless win. Next time i will do it in open chat but j didn't want to make you look a bit silly in.public for doing things you had actively participated in a discussion about avoiding. Apologies if my attempt to help offended you. I will not do.it again. Ok great , thanks.  Would be helpful to get the PMs from Sam explaining I should not show up for matches or else I am time griefing.  I dont need to hear this from you....another player (supposedly or game designer??) 'Award winning' please. I don't forget your honourifics. Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). But you know this.. because you were in the video meeting where we discussed it. So let's just put it in the past and we can all play nicely in the future. We have forgiven you. If you felt offended by my pointing out that you were doing things that you agreed were an obvious issue then I hope you can forgive me too. It was competitive.  Camp David got 15 fame for the match.  Most people would think that's worth it.  I'm sorry we didn't just roll over for you - but it looks like things are going to be easier.  Try to be happier when you are easily winning. I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:25 pm	*goat starer* said: I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on. I agree let's be clear : I am time griefing because I showed up for a match? There is nothing to forgive.
*Longo* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:28 pm	*goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ?
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:30 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on. I agree let's be clear : I am time griefing because I showed up for a match? There is nothing to forgive. Thats right Joel! we are getting somewhere. showing up to a battle you should have conceded, when you had no intention of engaging with us or trying to win the match (especially with the time neg and anti social hours issues) is time griefing. As you discussed with us on a video call that would be an obvious way to time grief people and, as you discussed during that call it needs to have penalties. I think its fair that you got away with it this time - it is after all early days and we are all learning stuff. thanks fr your kind comment.. we didn't think we did anything wrong but its nice to hear it from you.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:31 pm	*Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:36 pm	*goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on. I agree let's be clear : I am time griefing because I showed up for a match? There is nothing to forgive. Thats right Joel! we are getting somewhere. showing up to a battle you should have conceded, when you had no intention of engaging with us or trying to win the match (especially with the time neg and anti social hours issues) is time griefing. As you discussed with us on a video call that would be an obvious way to time grief people and, as you discussed during that call it needs to have penalties. I think its fair that you got away with it this time - it is after all early days and we are all learning stuff. thanks fr your kind comment.. we didn't think we did anything wrong but its nice to hear it from you. Should probably be an announcement maybe that you are not allowed to defend yourself if outmatched in CR.  Like you know so we don't have to guess. I mean we are still allowed to allocate merely 100 cr.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 10:58 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: I'm not clear here.. you are trying to justify time griefing an opponent and using an exploit on the basis that you got a benefit from it? This doesn't seem likely to be a productive line of reasoning. like i said we have forgiven you. Its probably time to move on. I agree let's be clear : I am time griefing because I showed up for a match? There is nothing to forgive. Thats right Joel! we are getting somewhere. showing up to a battle you should have conceded, when you had no intention of engaging with us or trying to win the match (especially with the time neg and anti social hours issues) is time griefing. As you discussed with us on a video call that would be an obvious way to time grief people and, as you discussed during that call it needs to have penalties. I think its fair that you got away with it this time - it is after all early days and we are all learning stuff. thanks fr your kind comment.. we didn't think we did anything wrong but its nice to hear it from you. Should probably be an announcement maybe that you are not allowed to defend yourself if outmatched in CR.  Like you know so we don't have to guess. I mean we are still allowed to allocate merely 100 cr. and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:06 pm	*goat starer* said: and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. What a horrible word.  Concede.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:10 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. What a horrible word.  Concede. shall we call it the 'tactical withdrawal' button? If that helps to develop sporting behaviours I would support renaming it.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:15 pm	*goat starer* said: Joel Autobaun said: *goat starer* said: and you also have a concede button which, as you know because you were part of that discussion too, was intended to make sportsmanship easier and help players to get on well and not waste one anothers time. I realise Camp David didn't tell you the CR we had deployed. So i think its understandable that you showed up. They seem to be very reliant on you fighting their battles whilst giving you none of the information you need. Reliable allies are quite hard to find. What a horrible word.  Concede. shall we call it the 'tactical withdrawal' button? If that helps to develop sporting behaviours I would support renaming it. Sporting behaviors!! HA!  Enjoy your new ally.  Good luck with that.  How nice, he's even changed his time to Euro Friendly.
*Longo* Posted Jun 7, 2020, 11:17 pm	*goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 12:52 am	*Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. I am struggling to think.of a single thing in them that wasn't Harry's idea amended by you or Joel? The only things I can think of that I recommended were: Not having to deploy to each hex in turn (we could ask for that to be added back for you if you don't like it?) Adding a 'tactical withdrawal' button. And erm... Er.... Literally none of my other suggestions have happened - to take just the main ones - reducing CR per player to 500, reducing turns to 50. I understand that you guys are unexpectedly losing. It must come as a real shock and a bit of anger and frustration is to be expected. But you are really struggling to come up with anything tangible that you were not directly involved in deciding. If there are some things you think need discussing I'm sure we could all ask for another call?
*Longo* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 12:55 am	*goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. I am struggling to think.of a single thing in them that wasn't Harry's idea amended by you or Joel? The only things I can think of that I recommended were: Not having to deploy to each hex in turn (we could ask for that to be added back for you if you don't like it?) Adding a 'tactical withdrawal' button. And erm... Er.... Literally none of my other suggestions have happened - to take just the main ones - reducing CR per player to 500, reducing turns to 50. I understand that you guys are unexpectedly losing. It must come as a real shock and a bit of anger and frustration is to be expected. But you are really struggling to come up with anything tangible that you were not directly involved in deciding. If there are some things you think need discussing I'm sure we could all ask for another call? From the sounds of this response, we are either not playing the same game or you think so highly of yourself you cant see past your nose. I will say you are right goat, in the interest of quieting you.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 12:58 am	*Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: *Longo* said: *goat starer* said: Showing up for matches isn't time griefing. Showing up with no intention to play competitively is (especially when you know it is 5am where your opponents live and you refused to renegotiate times and you know they have a 16 to 1 CR advantage). Didn’t Joel kill 2 HOFers while fighting 10 to 1 odds? If that isn’t playing competitive, I don’t know what is. Maybe you were exploiting because he did so much damage to you, it could be argued that you were not playing competitive, or are really, really, bad at pvp battles ? did he? who against? to date we have lost precisely 0 PVP battles. We seem to be very good at them. You may have gotten the hex but lost the battle. If you didn’t have Ninesticks, the desert hyenas would have their way with you. You will undoubtedly do well in Goat Wars, as what camp wars is now become, because they are tailored to you. But your ideas in Darkwind are award winning, just look how Scav took off. I am struggling to think.of a single thing in them that wasn't Harry's idea amended by you or Joel? The only things I can think of that I recommended were: Not having to deploy to each hex in turn (we could ask for that to be added back for you if you don't like it?) Adding a 'tactical withdrawal' button. And erm... Er.... Literally none of my other suggestions have happened - to take just the main ones - reducing CR per player to 500, reducing turns to 50. I understand that you guys are unexpectedly losing. It must come as a real shock and a bit of anger and frustration is to be expected. But you are really struggling to come up with anything tangible that you were not directly involved in deciding. If there are some things you think need discussing I'm sure we could all ask for another call? From the sounds of this response, we are either not playing the same game or you think so highly of yourself you cant see past your nose. I will say you are right goat, in the interest of quieting you. So no specific things? 'Goat Wars' is just an emotional reaction?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 8, 2020, 1:02 am	If only you fought in the game like this - it's 2 am your time!  Goat Wars... well this Friday it will be.  Until now I can conceed maybe the X10+cr camps play with MIGHT not have been your idea. Certainly a few our our ideas were taken, but nearly nothing of the logistics ideas and balance.  (we told you CR per player is a bad idea, particularly with so many battles.) Ideas giving some advantage to defender totally ignored and in fact the last advantage about to be taken away.  LET THE GANK BEGIN!
*goat starer* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 1:33 am	Joel Autobaun said: If only you fought in the game like this - it's 2 am your time!  Goat Wars... well this Friday it will be.  Until now I can conceed maybe the X10+cr camps play with MIGHT not have been your idea. Certainly a few our our ideas were taken, but nearly nothing of the logistics ideas and balance.  (we told you CR per player is a bad idea, particularly with so many battles.) Ideas giving some advantage to defender totally ignored and in fact the last advantage about to be taken away.  LET THE GANK BEGIN! None of those things were my ideas.. you seem to have turned me into a bogey man for absolutely no reason.. the architect of most of it was on your team in the first battle so it's really weird that you are imprinting on me. There already is advantage to the defender due to defence rating.. Im very comfortable with the notion that this should be increased (as a starting point defended tiles could get a minimum undeployed CR of 100 to stop.people just chucking  the mininum at every tile). You  donth seem to have come up with a single thing that was my suggestion. I don't even know what "X10+Cr" means? And you know none of this was my idea because you were in the meetings and you did most of the talking. People listened to you... You got most of what you asked for. If by the 'last advantage' you mean the advantage that only applies to US camps then I would say moderating that would be a very good idea. And neither of you seem to have understood how it works or modelled it. It has absolutely no down sides. You get to choose the hours you don't want to play so do we... And the game wins because it can always pick hours that are at least ok for everyone (which was the point after all). It still biases to the defenders times. Unless you think you can only win by scheduling games at 4am? I thought you were better than that.
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2020, 2:10 am	Joel Autobaun said: darthspanky said: i think hes just nervous, that 13800 cr is going to be bearing down on his camp from one direction while bill cr is comming from another, but thats just my guess. bbbbut I thought we had a deal??  we did have a deal but longo getting butthurt and running his mouth after i made him spend more money on sponsorships, ending this dont bid against each other bullcrap helped me greatly on who i wanted to side with.
*Longo* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 2:39 am	darthspanky said: we did have a deal but longo getting butthurt and running his mouth after i made him spend more money on sponsorships, ending this dont bid against each other bullcrap I have PMs from you asking me to take different sponsorships and not bid up the price so you could have it for cheap, after I returned a while back from my hiatus and didnt know this "system". You created this, and then when it didnt work in your favor, you did everything you could to ruin it. I learned it by watching you!
darthspanky Posted Jun 8, 2020, 2:48 am	i have the money to buy sposorships every year if i wanted, didnt buy any last year, want more money earn it, their was 1 year i needed 3 to build ambulances, and you drove the price up on one i needed, consider what i did payback for driving the price up on me.
*Longo* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 4:18 am	darthspanky said: i have the money to buy sposorships every year if i wanted, didnt buy any last year, want more money earn it, their was 1 year i needed 3 to build ambulances, and you drove the price up on one i needed, consider what i did payback for driving the price up on me. I wasnt driving the price up for you, I wanted to win it. You have screwed a ton of players in this community over the years. Maybe its time they all pay you back.
*sam* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 5:36 am	Joel Autobaun said: Certainly a few our our ideas were taken, but nearly nothing of the logistics ideas and balance.  (we told you CR per player is a bad idea, particularly with so many battles.) That wasn't goat's idea, it was Harry's/mine. We have spent far more time discussing these designs together than we have in calls with others. As Harry explained at the time, one of the core ideas in all this is to create a meaningful career path for newer players in the camp system, by making them valuable to more established players. I have also been told by a consultant on Eve Online that this exact concept was specifically in its design. As it stands, I know you think the CR per player should be higher. Goat thinks it should be lower. I have left it as it is. As I have mentioned in another thread, something does need to be done with CR. The options are, I think: 1. Put a cap on the size that a battle can be, by reducing the higher camp's CR to some limit (4000?) and reducing the lower camp's CR in proportion.   - or - 2.  Add a percentage-of-CR to each player's allowance, e.g. make it 750CR+10% of overall CR.  This is a figure I have discussed with Harry. It is moving more in the direction that you want than what goat wants, for the record. I have not yet done either of these because we all agreed that we should wait for more evidence before making big changes. Joel Autobaun said: Ideas giving some advantage to defender What ideas? I have nothing in my notes other than: - increasing the amount of extra CR that a defending camp gets from the tile's Defence rating (everyone agrees on this, but we decided to hold off on making rash changes until we have more evidence) - placing the KoTH flag closer to the defender (this was one of my early ideas which nobody seemed to like) Please remind me of your ideas on this. I absolutely don't want you to think you're being ignored or that I have any agenda other than making the game more fun for as many players as possible. Joel Autobaun said: the last advantage about to be taken away. Are you honestly trying to suggest that a match scheduling advantage - i.e. a real world aspect which should have as little bearing as possible on the game - is a way you think multiplayer game design should work?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jun 8, 2020, 6:04 am	If you are the one who suggested the flag start closer to the defender then kudos. I definitely remember being all for it! So why didnt it happen?? A cr advantage of 20 -100 for defendee seemed massive to me suggesting it. Until i saw the starting cr we had to play with... even 100 cr is a fart in the wind in 3000+ cr battles. Which is the toughest thing... but you come up with a good idea to reduced that and make the 750 cr/player limit more workable and the vault crowd shoots that one down. They did not give us another good battle and we felt led us in bad faith of testing this to take advantage of the cr deployment strategy... a system which favours the aggressor massively (again i would suggest the defender should be able to hold in reserve some reactionary cr at camp...perhaps deployed at a more aggressive decay. If the atracker doesnt attach of course he wasted it). So we decided wth i guess show up and see what happens we were angered by said bad faith on their side. We did not negotiate new times. We did not need too...too bad for them. If they knew the crs...then they know one guy with 750 cr coulda won anyway. So they showed up it seems just to piss and moan and cat call...goat pming me threats of your wrath for daring to show. And cooperation definitely died that night. What a darling he was. Point by point it has played out on these forums...despite calls for a meeting... to go with whatever goat wants. That is probably the biggest reason for our current dissension. Now i KNOW i mentioned 500m escapes need to get fixed (and i know i brought it up years ago with scl) And certainly our warnings of border merges bringing 4...5..6 and many more combats unreasonable to bring in the whole server coordination for them, have been ignored. That is certainly one reason aggrivating the feelings of not being listened to. So to be called a liar on top of this has certainly not cooled anything off. Im sure we are wrong on some of our perspectives...however if you can even imagine some of the absolute bull#### goat has pulled these last 2 weeks...maybe you might understand that perspective. We can only react to what we know. Oh and regarding the defender times... do you really think you want to talk to any camp owner who is forced to defend his actual camp at 3 am his time?
*sam* Posted Jun 8, 2020, 6:44 am	I'm going to bring this into a new thread and reply to your points there. I'll lock this one and put it out of its misery.