Announcing the new Camp Wars system
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*sam* Posted Mar 27, 2020, 1:58 pm |
As you may have heard, a group of us have spent some time discussing a major overhaul to the camp system. Here is an overview:
General Proposal The Evan map will be made up of a few hundred hex tiles which can each be owned by a PvP camp (or could remain neutral). Owning tiles will give recurring income/bonuses, but they will have to be defended from enemy players. CR for the battles will be designated by the camp owner at the beginning of each weekly/ biweekly period, being split between the tiles they own and adjacent tiles they wish to attack. The CR for the battles will be decided by both the CR allocated at the start of the period and other factors such as the defendability of the tile - hill tiles will grant a CR bonus to the defender for example. A New Economy This new method of organising camp PvP will completely replace the old camp war system, and indeed the old camp resource system. Training boosts, Training vouchers, enhanced recruitment, and tax dollars (from your serfs) are all things players can expect to earn from partaking in the new system. We will also have an open forum for new resources to be suggested and discussed - e.g. 'mutant hiring vouchers' from tiles near Firelight, or 'high-skill scout recruitment vouchers' from tiles near Gateway. Tiles will also crucially contain vital resources to the region they are in - there will be for example sporadic water sources in Texan and oil wells in Somerset. Alongside this we have a broad vision (if this system is succesful) of weening the game onto a more player run economy, working off supply and demand much like EvE online, and taking into account the popularity of the trading systems which have developed in Darkwind Scav. Non PvP Camps No camp who doesn't want to partake will be forced to. They will control the tile their camp occupies and all of the current resources the camp produces will be placed on that tile; i.e. they can continue to play their camp as PvE only, with the same rules that they currently have. Furthermore, as we are aware this change might *drastically* alter the value of some camps near Somerset who are set to be part of a crowded bloodbath, the option to relocate your camp will be given to all players (with a DW$ cost or refund if you’re moving closer or further from town). Scheduling Scheduling combats will work in the same way that camp attacks already work, i.e. the camp has ‘open times’ which define when attacks can be scheduled on its tiles. All times will be viewable through the map for all players. Mitigating PvP Risk While cars would be player supplied, it would be possible to hire computer controlled mercenaries, 70 - 80 skilled characters who would be hired and dissapear after a single use. If one wants to bring their good 200 skill characters they can - at their own risk. We will also add a new mechanism in PvP combats where any character can immediately (on command of their owner) be removed from the combat and put into a footsquad. Mitigating PvP Time Commitment A balance has to be found here between encouraging cooperation and the distribution of responsibilities, while not making the game a grindy slog. This can be balanced out by changing the period on which tiles are attacked. Part of the philosophy of this update will be to encourage player cooperation - camps are by no means meant to be a one man operation and if running your wars of conquest is too time consuming for you, it may be time to make some more friends or train up some new players to act as your allys and generals! Going along with this philosophy would be the idea of regional scouting - a way of involving noobs in camps. As opposed to the current annoying-ass npc camp attacks which come when you dont want them, the more pirates killed in a region increase its "safety rating", a modifier which affects productivity. The idea being to encourage camp owners to pay newer players (who may not be ready for full on PvP) to scout in their region, getting them involved in camps in the process. Another factor in terms of time consumption is the battles themselves - the way around this is to add a turn limit to battles and a king of the hill style control point, with the victory going to whoever has controlled this point for the longest by the end of the battle, should nobody have already won in the normal way by that point. Phased Implementation The idea is to use a phased approach to adding the features, over a number of game years. This will allow discussion and tweaking and people getting used to things before those things have the potential to wreck havoc. And it will give me time to reflect on the enormity of what I've just committed to implementing. I’ll shortly be writing up the plans for “Season 1” – to involve such things as initial resource placement of the map tiles, and camps getting a once-only opportunity to relocate. Thanks Thanks to the players who have helped this proposal along! Especially Harry, whose overall idea it was and who has cajoled me and marshalled our group discussions. Thanks also to Goat, Ninesticks, Joel, Longo, and X_Man. You're all welcome to discuss this; please give your ideas and concerns. We don't want to damage anyone's fun or for it to seem like a 'rich get richer' scheme. |
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Ashlee Posted Apr 5, 2020, 1:17 pm |
like the king of the hill plan. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Tez Posted Apr 5, 2020, 1:20 pm |
Since we're fighting for resources would it benefit the system if looting was optional at discretion of the winner? | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Effy Posted Apr 5, 2020, 3:09 pm |
Some questions or things to think about:
1 - Can a camp lose "all" his hexes including the starting one? What will happen in that case, can a camp be completely wiped? 2 - We all know how world works with bosses err i mean camp owners, and it may be an actual feature i'm not aware of. Could a group of players pay pool the money to create a camp, and be all of them owners with same powers over the camp?. Not that i'm interested (no time to regularly play sadly) just curious about what may be more efficient. 3 - I understand now non-subbed players will be able to travel to the new pvp camps? Only in the nothern cities? Otherwise we are keeping new players out of this new feature or giving extra "muscle" to northern camps. That may even be ok if the south is "richer" resource-wise 3.1 - If there are car limits for battles, and we let non-subbed (or well even subbed accounts if the guy pays for more than 1 account) it might be fairly easy for someone to multi-account and increase his own numbers. 4 - Will you place a "cooldown" on gang switching? Or can a group of mercs... ehhh i mean honest non camp owner people jump freely from camp to camp and help a camp get an hex, and the minute switch sides and take it back? And at the end have the power to threaten camp owners (if only by joining its enemies)? |
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*The X Man* Posted Apr 5, 2020, 4:59 pm |
I will do my best at these. Sam may need to verify to be 100% You wont lose your starting camp hex tile, just the ones you try to expand out and claim if a loss occurs. Camps cannot be completely wiped in one battle. The current camp war system, it took months and months of continuous defeats before it would be lost and taken over by the attacking camp.
The current system to purchase camps has been stopped for now. Up to Sam to determine when or if it will be opened for future camps to be purchased. As of now, look to buy a camp someone wants to sell. Other option is getting in with a camp owner who has multiple camps and "run one" for him.
Non subbed players can participate, but not sure if they will be able to or allowed to reach camps that are out of the northern triangle. If not, there is still plenty from them to get involved with.
Alt accounts are not allowed.
As far as I recall, non camp owners who help secure hex tiles can do so for any camp. That hex tile remains as that camp's own regardless what the non owner affiliation is with other camps. Sam or Harry, please review to make sure I got this all correct. Or add in anything I may have left out that is important. Thanks. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 5, 2020, 5:15 pm |
The tile your camp is on is much safer than the others. If you switch to non-pvp then it's entirely safe. If you leave pvp on and all your other tiles are gone then attacks can be made on your camp itself (the same as how camp wars now work) and only if all buildings are destroyed do you lose the camp. This has only ever happened once in the 'old' system, and that was to an abandoned camp. Basically there's no risk.. it takes several lost battles to lose your buildings.
I think were going to continue to allow people to buy camps, in fact. I think newer players would be too unhappy otherwise. Each camp can only have one actual owner, but any numbers of 'managers', with partial powers.
They'll have to (continue to) stay within the northern triangle. And they won't be allowed to partake in the pvp battles: see below.
Correct. And in this case it would be taken very seriously, since it would give a big advantage. Certainly non-subs won't be allowed to be involved in pvp battles, to help this. And also it won't be possible to take control of your squad-mates cars in these battles.
Correct. If you let people into your camp who you shouldn't trust, that's your problem. Backstabbing and other shenanigans is fair play, and actually fun.. having a level of politics coming in is a good thing. |
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*The X Man* Posted Apr 5, 2020, 5:22 pm |
Did better than the last test I took at school 
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Groovelle Posted Apr 7, 2020, 7:15 pm |
I don't know where to put this but I dig the idea of camps owning a town tile to be able to use their gangers and cars from camp in town events! | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Sir Nexus Posted Apr 7, 2020, 10:08 pm |
*relevant comment that underlies my excitement for the new camp system, while also shedding some light on what I think could be possible issues, followed up with more encouragement at the evolution of the game* | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*Rev. V* Posted Apr 9, 2020, 4:26 am |
Sam said
'Certainly non-subs won't be allowed to be involved in pvp battles, to help this. And also it won't be possible to take control of your squad-mates cars in these battles. ' I get the first part, the second though.... How does this play out if you get bumped from the game? Or am I misunderstanding something? |
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*sam* Posted Apr 9, 2020, 10:42 am |
Hmm, that's a good point. What we don't want is people borrowing each other's vehicle allowance in the combats to circumvent the strict per-player limits. How often do people actually get bumped from the game and are unable to return, though? |
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*Dark Tempest* Posted Apr 9, 2020, 11:47 am |
I think being in the event and then leaving is different that never logging in. I t happens to me plenty with the family at home that I have to leave the computer on short notice and I'm often not back for hours (4 hour timeouts are great!)
I think that if all the car owners are logged in at the beginning of combat the other squad members should be able to take control. |
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*goat starer* Posted Apr 9, 2020, 10:40 pm |
i'm really not sure about this bit. I have a baby and i don't want to be relying on the opposition to time out if i need to go settle him. At the moment i'm very happy for Nine, Pie of Bas to take over for a few turns. This would make participation almost impossible for me at certain times. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 9, 2020, 11:02 pm |
How to enforce the car limit per player, then? It's quite fundamental to encouraging a diverse player base in camps and encouraging newer players into this stuff |
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*Bastille* Posted Apr 10, 2020, 1:21 am |
Don't tell the Hessians about this |
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*Bastille* Posted Apr 10, 2020, 1:30 am |
Yeah, Im in this boat, or even just lose internet connection for hours. I agree if we are logged in at the start it should be ok, Im not sure how this would play out though. |
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*Bastille* Posted Apr 10, 2020, 1:33 am |
Yeah, tricky. And I guess even if we are logged in to start, easy enough to have 5 dudes tha never play, log in at the start and assign all their cars to Grimm. Lets see how he plays this out, that will give us some ideas hehe |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 10, 2020, 4:01 pm |
Like |
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*sam* Posted Apr 10, 2020, 5:56 pm |
I suppose it would be fairly easy to spot suspicious behavior, and it could be dealt with manually. |
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*Longo* Posted Apr 10, 2020, 10:43 pm |
I think this is a good starting point. Marshals can be contacted by players concerned their opponent is cheating, and the either rectify the situation at that point or forward to you and/or Xman for review if it necessitates. |
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*Longo* Posted May 29, 2020, 4:03 pm |
Sam-
Been talking to a few people, and wanted to ask for maybe this - For weekly camp war reset, make it Monday rather than Friday? As it is now, I know we are trying to make camp battles on the weekends, but finding out Friday about camp wars that are happening in 24 hours or less doesnt give much time to plan or talk with an opponent about changing the date and time. |
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*sam* Posted May 29, 2020, 4:44 pm |
Yeah, that had been on my mind. Is Monday the best? (rather than a day or two later) I would change the weekly camp reset in its entirety to the new day. |
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*goat starer* Posted May 29, 2020, 7:54 pm |
Longo is absolutely right. being given 4 camp battles in 2 days with less that 24 hours notice is frankly impossible... especially when some are at incredibly anti social times.
Its a deal breaker for me. so.. limit the number of occupied hexes a camp can attack... make the server apply a maximum of one event per day unless there are too many to make this possible... give at least 48 hours notice to the first event. |
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Tez Posted May 29, 2020, 8:05 pm |
I thought we're meant to have a week to sort our camp attacks? | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted May 29, 2020, 8:44 pm |
the cycle should probably be three weeks... week one place... week 2 schedule... week 3 war |
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*sam* Posted May 29, 2020, 11:12 pm |
How about this:
- Change the weekly camp update day to Sundays - Have the server pick combat dates that are the following weekend, i.e. 7 days notice so you can agree changes as necessary - Have automatic wins if the CR balance is 4:1 or greater |
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darthspanky Posted May 29, 2020, 11:43 pm |
having auto wins is bad imo, i have 2 cars they have 14 is a challenging fight not an auto loss for some of us imo. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Dropdeadfred Posted May 30, 2020, 12:06 am |
I would agree, auto wins probably shouldn't be a thing in a PvP setting. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted May 30, 2020, 12:18 am |
Forget this forum talk... some of these changes are coming fast and from the hip - can we have another town meeting? (sooner before changes like this) |
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*Longo* Posted May 30, 2020, 12:34 am |
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*Rev. V* Posted May 30, 2020, 4:24 am |
OOOOooooooo Longo just called you out Sam!!!!!!
Only one way to settle this!!! Thunderdome!!!! |
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*goat starer* Posted May 30, 2020, 4:46 am |
he can beat you in a wurzel 
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Krakhedd Posted May 30, 2020, 5:30 am |
I think this is a bad idea. Show up to play or lose, regardless the advantage. That is the Darkwind way; else wise, we wouldn't have renegades, would we? |
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darthspanky Posted May 30, 2020, 5:37 am |
i dont think players ashould be able to target the camp flag and destroy it so people cant see where it is in camp wars, make them invulnerable to player fire. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*The X Man* Posted May 30, 2020, 5:51 am |
Someone had to test it. 
Make the pole indestructible solves this issue. |
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*The X Man* Posted May 30, 2020, 5:54 am |
I agree to a monday camp war reset day. |
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*goat starer* Posted May 30, 2020, 6:53 am |
There is a concede button to prevent the need for people to effectively time grief the opposition by creating lots of unwinnable battles. Forcing people to turn up at events you have absolutely no intention of playing competitively I'd the very definition of time griefing. That was an attempt to let the player base be mature enough to behave with generosity and responsibility If.they can't / won't I dont see that sam has much choice It might also have the advantage of limiting the number of weekly combats to a playable level. Most people are trying to make the system run fairly and well. A few seem intent making camp wars unplayable from the start. It's basically wrecking behaviour and it's makes the community poorer in the long run. |
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*sam* Posted May 30, 2020, 9:47 am |
Joel proved that this rule *is* necessary, by wasting everyone's time this morning. I'm also removing the 500m auto-escape rule for these combats. Everyone seems to agree with that. It would have been better if you just told me though Joel, rather than proving your point by misusing it. |
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*Longo* Posted May 30, 2020, 11:13 am |
Sam- Auto wins could be dangerous if the odds are not obvious. Like I said before, I would role 1 to 4 odds myself. But not 10 to 1 odds. The Vault vs Camp David last week was 2 to 1 odds, and you saw the result yourself. So if your going to make an auto win, please keep this in mind. Im thinking a really good player that can fight against the odds and always has good strategy, such as Joel or Xman, could potentially do serious damage and have a chance of winning on odds up to 5 to 1, so maybe start here and adjust if need be? This could be adjusted if we see more issues down the road. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted May 30, 2020, 12:16 pm |
In defence to Joel, he turned up for the event, I am deeply glad he didn't ultimately misuse the auto-escape - so I don't think it is entirely reasonable or fair to say he misused it.
I am somewhat wary of autodefeats, but it would have to be at least 5 to 1. |
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*sam* Posted May 30, 2020, 12:34 pm |
I get your point. It's also about reducing the amount of combats - especially waste-of-time ones. So there's a trade-off.. is it worth occasionally auto-deciding a combat that could have been competitive, in order to save a lot of wasted time on others? I'd say yes, within reason. |
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Tez Posted May 30, 2020, 12:39 pm |
I'm strongly against auto wins in PvP | ||||||||||||||||||||
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darthspanky Posted May 30, 2020, 12:45 pm |
especially if pre decided ones what if they have high cr and not everyone shows up, people could just send huge cr squads to auto win, i know ill pull out of this if im pre decided to loose a battle i intended on fighting with 2 cars vs 14 i get those odds regularly in sv. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*The X Man* Posted May 31, 2020, 5:17 am |
I was going to bring this up at the next camp wars meeting, but since it is being brought up, here is a recommendation. I discussed this already with longo yesterday to minimize battles. The battles with Camp David and The Vault makes this more of a need. Currently, there are 4 hex tiles that will each have a fight. Honestly, that is way too many IMO. To make this less chaotic, anytime 2 camps have multiple hex tiles to fight in a week, it becomes ONE fight for ALL the hex tiles. If that seems too much, consider half? Regardless of the hex tile reward (player vote), this makes battles much easier to manage, especially if you have other camps to fight. |
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FireFly Posted May 31, 2020, 5:47 am |
X, not to presume but my reading is that you want a system based on control points/nodes, something likely more workable with a lower player base. I'm not sure refitting the current system into that without making major redesign passes is a good thing tho, as it's a rather different style than the current design... again, as far as I understand it.
I assume that such a system was brought up but rejected in favor of the wargame-lite we have now. I would be interested to if such a node based system was discussed, and if anyone is willing to share why the wargame was picked over that. |
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*The X Man* Posted May 31, 2020, 5:58 am |
I was just offering a suggestion to Sam saying he wanted to reduce combats. Something that needs to be discussed among the players. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted May 31, 2020, 8:35 am |
The alternatives i can see to auto wins are
1) people using the concede button in a reasonable and mature manner 2) an arbitrary and no doubt contentious set of penalties if people are seen to be abusing the ability to make lots of low CR events 3) a change to minimum tile deployment and maximum occupied hexes attacked. I would prefer number 1. As for X's idea. It is an awful idea on millions of levels. 1. It removes any tactical play on the hex map. 2. It automatically unbalanced towards the stronger camp 4. It will make large time consuming fights instead of quick ones. And then millions more |
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darthspanky Posted May 31, 2020, 10:03 am |
dont know how all this will end up turning out, but part of a strategy imo is to use 750 cr squads and fight multiple fronts if you attack someone, deploy to 5 or 6 of their hex tiles, now that is like booo too much attacking, lol, why not just give free stuff to camp owners while your at it, it looks like thats your goal not to have multiple hex tiles get attacked, but dole out resourses. just seems to me to be getting worse and worse, carebears will win another one making things way to easy. oh well was fun while it lasted i guesss. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*sam* Posted May 31, 2020, 10:39 am |
Darth, you clearly have no idea about the intricacies and balancing involved in running a multiplayer game. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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darthspanky Posted May 31, 2020, 11:39 am |
your right i obviously dont, but from my point of view things are already too easy, getting all these new tiles to add to camp its like monty hall give out free stuff and when you work hard, owe that doesnt matter, that guy cant fight that much its unfair to him. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted May 31, 2020, 12:27 pm |
yeah i think people need to be more patient with this whole process. We knew from the start it was gonna take alot of finetuning as does every major overhaul to any game but the fundementals are there. That big first battle between krakk and goat was good fun and that was even with mismatches cr and a restrictive map. I for one cant wait for the omegabattle upcoming between X and Longo
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Joel Autobaun Posted May 31, 2020, 3:54 pm |
Why should we? Could have tested another 3000 CR battle this week. But goat didnt do it. Why do we have to do it? In fact it looks like the name of the game is mob smaller camps with 4:1 cr battles now. |
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*goat starer* Posted May 31, 2020, 7:00 pm |
How did I not do it? I deployed my cr sensibly. Krak deployed his as though I was an idiot. That's all on you guys. Thinking about deployment is most of this game. We just played it well. He also stuck his camp right next to ours .. presumably at your instigation. Which means you get no benefit from diminishing CR. That was another odd choice. But I'm sure it's all my fault! |
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Joel Autobaun Posted May 31, 2020, 7:19 pm |
Oh no clearly you blame me for ...everything. My fault obviously. |
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*HarryRed* Posted May 31, 2020, 8:29 pm |
you guys are approaching this in an unproductive manner. All of us here want to make this a funner game - and we can. You can't expect balance to be perfect on rollout | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted May 31, 2020, 8:55 pm |
we have approached it with pure fun
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Joel Autobaun Posted May 31, 2020, 8:58 pm |
I didn't expect that Harry, but I am getting called an exploiter for playing it. (the unbalanced imperfection). |
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darthspanky Posted May 31, 2020, 9:29 pm |
your both wrong obviosly everything is my fault muhahahahahaha | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*Bastille* Posted May 31, 2020, 10:10 pm |
:facepalm: |
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*goat starer* Posted May 31, 2020, 10:16 pm |
i know...
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:14 am |
I'm out of camp wars already just learned i can only play 750 of the CR i need to play a battle that means...
if i was to put down 3000cr i need to find 3 other players (im not very well liked) trust them with 750 cr in said combat. to not stab me in the back. so if 1 player was to do it thats 1/4 of my cr back stabbing me. (which sam says is fine) While making these rules up .....as he goes along clearly not putting any thought into it ....if two players back stab me thats half of my cr back stabbing me. So say im stuck with the 750Cr combats cuz thats the rules....that means players get 2250 more combat than me with 4 players. Why cant i be a tyrant? why cant i run a dictatorship why am i being hindered. there for i quit before it starts. this is suppost to be serious pvp and support it being one of the biggist advocates for PVP on this game. for me to say im quiting because it this is a joke ...means it needs serious re-working ...im not losing all my stuff because u guys want to hug it out. simple as that...sam this camp wars is a joke why is there a 750 CR limit in play per player????? who suggested that and why?????? why is there a 4:1 auto win ratio??? all a player needs is 3750 cr and thats it i auto lose anyways...but doesnt matter as i can only play 750 of that 3000 cr combat. Im not happy at this so will be leaving the camp wars before it has even started. (so much for fair play) |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:17 am |
Sam u might as well hand map to longo and joel and x man and tez and anyone who belongs to them minion wise... players like me who play it by there selves like darth , me others who are quiting cuz they aient minions .....
they get nothing.....it seems....What the hell kind of circle is that...unfair. seems like its clan wars combat system. |
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PA Racers Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:47 am |
I say let him run it all alone! Come up with a penalty if ya need too, but no way he gets 4 helpers, lol. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:55 am |
thank u pa why do i need a penaitly tho? if anyone should get one it should be them. (as they get more specs than i will have)....i mean its all a risk...the CR is set if its not 4:1 auto win it should be fair....other than specs which im sure ill also be out matched on.... but thank you i should be able to fight at it alone anyone should be able to CR limit is well unfair. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*sam* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:38 am |
The per player CR limit was always a central part of the design, which was agreed on very early. It's to foster camps as cooperative
ventures. From a game development perspective the main reason is to stop this all being another game aspect which newer players feel is shut off from them. It is to encourage camp owners from valuing new players and providing a career path for them, initially as hired guns perhaps. Have you tried asking in the lobby? (Many don't use the forum). Have you tried befriending newer players and helping them out? (Or do you really expect people to jump to your aid when you haven't shown an inclination to help them?) Have you tried offering payment? Darth would have had plenty of help from allies of the Vault. This isn't why he closed pvp. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:39 am |
i made a forum post in may saying camp wars was a sick joke, still is for those players who prefer to scout alone, why im out, doubt me or madbooth would get a following of go along players and if we did most likly be newish players, ill just fight alomside goat and his crew, wouldnt be right for me to ask them to help support my camp they have enough fights every week themselvess while alot never seen to attack each other unless they are not part of the longo crew and im glad im not in that crew. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*sam* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:00 am |
"I'll help someone.. it wouldn't be right to ask them to help me in return. ". Erm.. ok then. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:01 am |
But the CR rule stops a newish player like me who has no freinds basicly on the game from expanding.
Pa: even said no way i get 3 helpers. X man and all the old vets are gonna get along ...as they been playing toghter for years and which they are proving they are.. Longo bragging about having darths Vehicals when hes been fighting x man how long? and nothing happing realy... Its turned very Clintchy....and i have tryed reaching out its hard alot of people dont wanna do pvp...specialy with me..i dont stand a chance.. |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:04 am |
maybe if the CR limit was taken off people could pick and choose sides.. but they cant they have to pick 1 side and stick to it cuz there so imporant to the combat...
Whos legit gonna be loyal to me? |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:07 am |
Ive had gangers kidnapped allowed it....
Ive had darth shoot me in back in SS defence allowed it. Now u want me to trust strangers with 750CR 1/4 of the combat in a 3000 cr match not to stab me in back...(and i have to trust them???) With u also saying go on u can shoot him in back...like i need there help for that sam realy? Sam?  thats not fair....
Simple as that ... |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 12:01 pm |
also nobody wants to play against a player singlehandedly controlling 3000CR... it would be interminable. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 10, 2020, 12:56 pm |
Wasn't that the point of hiring players, and the proposed mercenary npcs we can hire?
Madbooth, If you want people to fight with you or for you, It might be a good idea to stop treating vets like you know more than they do and being annoying. I thought this was common sense. You told me i can fight for you, or else you would be coming to attack me, 20 hexes away. Lets look at that, if you win every hex you go for every other week, you will get 6 hexes closer per year, then if your lucky enough that the part doesn't decay or is lost to another attack, it will take you over 1 year real world time to even get close to me. Shoot for realistic goals and realistic threats, By the way, I thought you said your room mate was playing now? Diplomacy is a LARGE part of strategy. I have a small area, but I have valuable resources, and strong borders, and allies. All due to diplomacy. Another factor is Honor. If you are honorable, you do not get stabbed in the back. I am not verbally attacking you, I am giving you constructive criticism. Another strategy you could use for extra CR, you provide the cars and the crews. get another player to put them in the squad for you and you add your crews. YOu don't even need them to join the event, you can take control once the event starts. No one needs to risk anything other than yourself. Rules say what you can and can not do, Its your job to figure out how to make something work with what you have available. Quitters never prosper. |
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*sam* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 1:30 pm |
Most of your advice is good, Grimm - however on this point it's not quite true. You get penalised in the form of King of the Hill points for having cars in the battle which aren't being controlled by their owners. It's also against the rules, so if you continually do it there will be other penalties. The 'soft' penalty is there because we realise that sometimes it's unavoidable - life or poor internet getting unexpectedly in the way, etc. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 1:33 pm |
today's inspirational message is Brought to you courtesy of sponsorship from British American Tobacco.
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*Longo* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 1:49 pm |
The problem is you have no friends or allies because you stab them all in the back, as does darth. You decided to "hate" me yesterday because I wouldnt attack one of my allies with you. Then you asked my ally to attack me? You attack everyone in events, newer players or vets for no reason, and YOU, yourself, cant be trusted by anyone. Darth just "backstabbed" you as you put it recently. Then he asks you to help him ruin a Morgan defense and try and kill me and Xman...and you AGREE! I was one of the last people that had no reason to dislike you, until you decided to do this and advise me your going to destroy me and my allies.
Who would want you on their side? This isnt about game rules, this is about being "mean" in game, antisocial, doing things that make people dislike you, and having a huge ego that you cannot support in game. If you want allies...well darth "owes" you now....and you have Jacked. That is 2,250 CR. Maybe not kill new players next time in town events and maybe you will befriend 1. Sam isnt going to change the rules because of the above. I didnt like this rule either but I adapted. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 10, 2020, 1:57 pm |
I am sorry I wan't suggesting to cheat. I was only making a point that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat who buys cat fur any way, where did this expression come from? |
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*sam* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 2:18 pm |
Yeah some of those expressions are strange, and very mean to animals. Apparently in Italy they say "catch two birds with one seed" instead of "kill two birds with one stone". Much nicer.. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 10, 2020, 2:35 pm |
I just had a brainstorm, and need aspirin...
What about this idea, To implement NPC mercs, you hire a NPC gang to work for you similar to a contract hit, but instead you assign up to 750 CR to them and they come fight for you. maybe you cant control them and they fight like teammates in arena with the flag as a checkpoint of sorts. Or maybe you can control them like controlling escorts on a escort mission The key to what I am pointing out is that you do not get to pick what cars they bring. only only get to set their CR (edit up to 750 which may end up being 800 because it's npc), which may end up beign higher like in the old camp defense system. But they are NPC so it's a balance of sorts. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 10, 2020, 2:39 pm |
In Canada we say "kick both balls and leave". | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 3:29 pm |
They still kill the birds when they catch them and then eat them in songbird pasta. |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 5:48 pm |
Or i can just close my pvp flag on my camp and save myself being gangbanged by about 10 vets on this game. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 5:49 pm |
have fun hugging it out ya'll | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 5:52 pm |
My PvP Flag is off and I am having a blast with the game! Not all aspects are for everyone. I enjoy carrying mail and such - others don't. It's not one size fits all. :-) |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:04 pm |
just annoys me biggist advocates for saying this is a fair rule are them with the bodys to support it.
Some of the most successful gangs in evan need that upper hand simple as that other wise they know they would lose too much. people have already said camp wars is about being liked not about skill. or your ability to play the game its purely based on social standing within the game. (which is a joke) |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:13 pm |
Cant belive the arguements turned into u are not cool so there for you dont matter on a game as nerdy as this.. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:18 pm |
tho u can bet this rule was made when hati was about. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 6:36 pm |
Well you won't hear that from me! And I just stay away from those that feel that way or say things like that. Ignore 'em and have fun! If Camp PvP *IS* your idea of fun, though, then try to work it out - otherwise just play the game for what it is. :-) |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:01 pm |
too bad someone has a wild hare up their... No one is being forced to play camp wars |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:08 pm |
No Im being Forced to put players on my side that i wouldnt usaly have on my side ect ect ect....
Forcing me to befreind people...ect ect ect.... The "Cool" ratings rule is a stupid one ....and i dont agree with it... |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:18 pm |
Well close up. You said you were going to do it, so "sh*t or get off the pot" as we non city folk here in the US say. Or keep talking to yourself on this forum for the next day until Sam or a marshal locks it up. |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 7:25 pm |
ok ill shut up about it...
already on a 60 min mute in lobby for talking about it clearly this subject is not up for chatting about. And i will be moderated if found arguing about it. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:07 pm |
Wihle I wasn't there nor do I really care - I would suspect that you were filling the lobby with line after line, typically each line consisting of three or four words. I hope you can understand that this is pretty poor behaviour for the general lobby where all users should have a reasonable expectation of getting a word in edgewise nor their request for information/help swallowed by your tsunami of text.
You even started doing it here with a double post. Give yourself some time before hitting enter/submit etc - not only may you find yourself giving better consideration to your message but also you could, you know, just do one longer post once you have all your thoughts properly marshalled. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:33 pm |
Don't tell him that, he practically admitted he can't defend the territory he already has @Ninestix, hardest lesson for me in life is learning that just because something is said doesn't mean I have to respond. My grandfather used to say, "better to let people think you are stupid than to open your mouth and let them know" |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 8:39 pm |
Now onto the name calling. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Madbooth Posted Aug 10, 2020, 9:51 pm |
[quote=Grimm Sykes][quote=*Longo*]Well close up.[/quote]
Don't tell him that, he practically admitted he can't defend the territory he already has And you could defend your's if longo attacked you how with ur CR? they could simply gang up on you is what im saying of course i cant when it comes to massive pvp battle i simply have to surrender them. or look for people. Shurg's threw my paddy now just gotta work out another plan other than simply walking though most of you. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2020, 2:28 am |
I’ve only read some of this but I want to weigh in on it. I’ll read more before I do so in a (vain?) attempt to 1) make sense b) have useful non duplicate suggestions or opinions, and 5) wait did I already say make sense?
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2020, 3:41 am |
As am I I understand the concept of “especially waste-of-time ones” as *Sam* stated, but I have to question what is each person’s definition of “waste of time?” As an ex-Infantry Officer and trained tactician (couldn’t tell it from my scouts though... life and games are different), I can tell you that sometimes a military unit will conduct an attack with no hope of winning, but with the intent to mitigate loss while inflicting some kind of result on the enemy (what that may be can vary wildly). In some cases it’s called an attack to Atrit. (Cause casualties or destroy supplies) other times maybe there is a specific enemy that the top people want “neutralized” (killed wounded or otherwise removed from future combat). Maybe I sent my 350 CR team n there to rip a hole in the car of a specific enemy ganger, red him, and get the heck out of there. Auto defeat eliminates this spectrum or tactical layer from play. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 11, 2020, 6:21 am |
The loss of a possibility against the time savings for the playerbase/avoiding certain types of potential griefing is more than a fair trade-off.
As you say this is a game and not real life - so using a real life examplie has little or no weight in an argument. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2020, 6:55 am |
By that logic one could say SMGs may hurt you in real life, but this is a game so ours should shoot Teddy Bears and Hugs. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*sam* Posted Aug 11, 2020, 7:22 am |
Nine is right here. I have watched nearly all the camp wars combats, and every time CR is unbalanced by about 2:1 or more, the combat has been a foregone conclusion. It's crucial that we avoid wasting people's time if we want them to continue participating - this is the most important thing.
Incidentally, 'redding' gangers in these is rare, because of the special escape rules. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 11, 2020, 8:03 am |
Yes you could, that is the point if fun was deemed to be shooting each other with 'Teddy Bears and Hugs' - glad you got the point. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2020, 8:03 am |
I concede the point then. I have not had the opportunity to look at it statistically so my opinion is based merely on opinion. Though I do want to say something to the entire community about not only this but the game in general: *Sam* is probably the most caring dedicated developer I’ve ever dealt with. I for one am trying to be very diplomatic and you guys all know I often am not. I FEEL WE ALL SHOULD BE AT THIS JUNCTURE. Especially the Veterans who represent the core community to outsiders. I’ve had dealings with big name Devs and smaller ones and *Sam* goes above and beyond to cater to us. He could just say “here’s your damn game, released, done, finished, see ya! Pay me money. Oh and here’s a DLC for camp war, I don’t care how you want it, here ya go, life’s hard, wasteland and all that, pip pip!“ Instead he tries to make us all happy and fails since none of us ever agree with each other on anything. Then we get so upset that he is “breaking” or “ruining” the game we love that we call “our” game that we engage in forum PvD (Player vs Developer) combat. This feature will not be what what we all want. Each of us may get a concession, but in the end it will be what *Sam* feels works... uh... most balanced? (Sam what’s the goal here?). Anyway. Let’s all work WITH *Sam* and try to be diplomatic and understanding. Otherwise he might go make another Goblin Grotto Jump n Run game or one of those “throw your dishes at the wall” apps instead because we are being crybabies. |
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*sam* Posted Aug 11, 2020, 8:10 am |
Haha, thanks Crispin :-)
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2020, 8:23 am |
Gonna have to correct you slightly on this one Ashlee / Madbooth. I mean, first, it seems to me you aren’t all that new are you? I haven’t played seriously for something like 2 YEARS maybe 3. And I remember you from when I was around more. I know it takes a long time for a player to fee they are a “Vet” but you aren’t all that new unless I’ve got Alzheimer’s! As for xman and all the old vets getting along... we often don’t. Most of us fluctuate between being friends and being enemies. The only real thing you could say about us is that we have a familiarity with each other that tends to lead to generosity and understanding. You rattled of a list of names in a few posts and in the lobby saying those people were friends or worked together but when I saw those names I could say “him and him really hate each other” and “oh I remember when they used to be at war” Most of us would likely shoot the other in the back with little provocation. The difference is, we know in a pinch the other would lend a helping hand (so they could backstab him again likely but oh well). Sam is right though. Take some noobs under your wing. Teach them. Make them YOUR minions. That’s what I did. Krak was my minion. Till he got to big for his britches and showed me how rich he could get. Teach. Shepherd. And you will thrive (well, and die too but thrive in between all the dying). |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2020, 8:38 am |
So back to the topic though:
I tend to agree with Ashlee / Madbooth on one thing. Correct me if I’m wrong because I haven’t been back long enough to get a feel for how this camp war stuff works. It seems to me that the camp with the most players, with the highest leadership skill and gang size, with the most money and cars, or who doesn’t do town stuff much and can throw their entire gang into a camp and ignore the rest of the game, and who can spam huge CR rates in attacks have a huge advantage over a new or developing camp with a newer player or even 3-4 new players manning it. It’s really always been the case that those mega camps had an advantage so I’m not saying this changes the dynamic of the game. But if the goal is to pull newer players into the camp side of the game or the PvP side of the game, this fact would be off-putting or counter-productive. People will argue “you don’t have to play the camp game then” but I’m trying to point out that if the goal is to open that venue up more then we should approach its implementation in a way that doesn’t keep the rich, rich and the poor, poor like we always have. (Sorta) |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 11, 2020, 3:12 pm |
Sorry about my paddy.
I just felt it was unfair but its the same for everybody i guess .. ill deal with it ..again sorry for any hurt feelings. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 11, 2020, 5:54 pm |
I was loathed and hunted in darkwind, players actually got sam to alter some game rules so they could teach me a lesson. I am allied with other players and accepted not because i kiss tucas or follow orders. I can call on people for help because I showed honor and respect when fighting. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Aug 11, 2020, 8:54 pm |
Yes Sir you have. A respected and fearsome warrior, proven on the battleground ! |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 12, 2020, 1:42 am |
I remember that change. It didn’t teach you any lessons. If anything it made you more counter-culture and dug the thorn you represented deeper into their side. I’ve always been happy to call you friend. Even when we disagree on aspects of the game and what’s right or wrong about them. To add to that though, for Mad/Ash: a LOT of us went through the same thing. I’m planning to set up a thread to talk about that type of thing because it’s probably helpful to new players to understand how Vets got to where they are and how their “new player” experience shaped them. The biggest issue I feel we have is that new people come into the game, feel marginalized and abused and cheated. They feel like the rich get richer, and then abuse new people to hold them down. And then they quit. Which isn’t what we want. |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 12, 2020, 9:49 am |
sam take the insto beam back out....players should be at least in a little bit of risk on the game....
Does that mean enemys can escape on my turn? or just first turn of theres? |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 12, 2020, 4:14 pm |
One thing that could definitely help to get assistance with camp wars since there is a cr per player limit, is to allow players to join the camp combat squad from any town. It may not make realistic sense, but neither does having a squad limit, a cr limit, or putting guns on cars/ | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 12, 2020, 4:31 pm |
What about griefing by setting your times of operation to a time you know the other player is asleep. the battles get set during that time and you refuse to change the time, could decide the battle by making it impossible for the opponent to be online | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*Dark Tempest* Posted Aug 12, 2020, 4:32 pm |
Maybe expand to towns controlled by the camps in question, but logistics should matter. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 12, 2020, 4:58 pm |
Yep... We all know the biggest culprit for that trick. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 12, 2020, 6:30 pm |
Actually I dint know it was abused yet, I was just pointing out a potential issue before it became a problem |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 12, 2020, 6:58 pm |
bit late for that |
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Madbooth Posted Aug 12, 2020, 8:03 pm |
stop crying about times theres 24 hours in a day.... if it was that important to you . you would make time for the events...
(personaly i dont care about what ur doing in real life long as your not hurting others or urself) So dont ever expect me to change times to suite ur needs. Simple as that. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 13, 2020, 4:49 am |
it's not like we are torturing lemmings |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 13, 2020, 4:51 am |
Yeah, that friggin Xman... but what can ya do? (By the way, congrats on the baby, goat. Boy or girl?) |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 13, 2020, 11:24 am |
Aren't commas good? :-) Congrats!!! |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 13, 2020, 12:27 pm |
They do help a bit - although it is, i guess, both a 'baby goat' and a 'baby, goat' in some way. thanks Crispin.... Boy (to add to the earlier girl) |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 13, 2020, 5:37 pm |
congrats on the "kidd" | ||||||||||||||||||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 14, 2020, 1:36 am |
so quick question.
I had a car at a camp that was at 10% chassis and was needing fixed once I got enough CPs there to fix it. so Ive been trying to stockpile them... Today I go in there to see if I finally brought in enough and My Custom Armored Cav skin (RudeReality custom) BPU is missing. This is a cherished vehicle as Rude no longer plays. What might have happened to it? Or if someone has it, might you consider returning it? The camp is Open PvP so im guessing somone attacked and took it, though ive never had that occur from an attack anywhere else before. Not sure if thats a thing or not. Also concerned they might break it down for scrap since it needed fixed from the camp being dormant and it getting stuck there. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Aug 14, 2020, 10:15 am |
attacking undefended camp using the old system meant the attacking player looted vehicles. if activities go back far enough, it should show who attacked | ||||||||||||||||||||
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KingEridani Posted Jan 9, 2021, 4:38 pm |
Not to commit threadomancy, and nor do I have any leads on any missing BPU, but...
I wanted to chime in on this thread with a (hopefully helpful) new player's perspective on PVP. The way I see players' progression in DW from my admittedly limited vantage point goes like this: Newb: Just made an account - played some town events - just starting their first garage New Player: maybe sub'd, maybe not - has a stable but small garage for town events and scouting out of SS Early Game: probably sub'd at this point - has a growing garage and operations in Northern Triangle - Getting the first four specs on your gangers - PVE scouting is king of income at this stage, northern triangle parcel is pitiful and PVP is just as inaccessibly high level in NorT as it is down south. This is where things get a little fuzzy for me, and where I have experienced a rather deterring feeling of not-knowing-how-to-proceed. Mid Game: definitely sub'd, maybe off and on, but with at least occasional regularity to fill up gangers and garage - Has a bevy of vehicles in various towns - Gangers getting up to the primary skill rating 200 with up to 8 specs from side training - ... I have yet to really get to this marker so I'm guessing here ... These gangs are starting operations in the South, whether that be setting up to move bulk goods from town to town, doing Southern PVE scouting, or starting to be recruitable for Camps. Late Game: Sub'd likely all the time for the training boosts - Cars all around Evan and probable membership in one or more player Camps - Gangers hit a new skill:age roof thru Southern and PVP xp boosters, so you see relatively healthy gangers with 300+ skills and buttloads of specs - These players can run any town event they want, scout from anywhere (but probably have 1 or 2 main areas), regularly run camp cargo and logistic travels, and have access to DW$ making schemes that simply aren't viable without high skill gangers in chromey phat cars. Whale Tier: Players like Longo, X-Man, Joel, Goat... (sorry if I missed anyone) These are the whale tier players that are essential to the Playershpere of DW. They operate so many resources by comparison to all other types of players that any player who has not hit their late game stride, may as well have no effect on their decision-making. What does all this have to do with Camp Wars systems? Well after reading through this topic, I felt called to respond to *Sam*'s stated intent to get more players involved in Camps (especially wars) and make Camps (and wars) necessarily more cooperative. My first major point of discussion: While I don't disagree with a CR limit, nor do I think *any* system will completely eliminate the occasional need for a moderative eye, perhaps we are overly-much approaching the systems design from a rulemaker's perspective. In praxiology we look at an actor's motivations and valuations from both the negative (limiting, deterring, risky) perspective, AND the positive (opportunity-creating, incentivized, rewarding). So, not to replace the 'whip' of a 750CR limit, but perhaps consider in addition providing a better 'carrot' than simple raised ganger xp. Perhaps by further mitigating risk (mercenary idea is a great step in right direction), creating financial rewards for newb-veteran relations, or having stone-in-pond economic effects on towns. On the related note of praxis, time is valuable and while auto-resolution does sound like an intimidating factor, especially considering the vast disparity of wealth of players spread throughout the career stages of DW, it is an essential mechanic to preserving the playability of the late game, especially if more player entrants are desired. Surely this mechanic can be refined to be fair and no more random than say for example the scouting mechanics, an accounted for risk factor for all. Financial rewards brings me to another major point of discussion. Moving Evan to a (moreso) player-run economy. I am glad to hear this process is being approached with care and intent. A deliberate and measured pace of rollout here (as has been well done with new Hex and Camp wars systems) will be essential to crafting a stable system. *Sam* you brought up Eve Online... As anyone who was present at B-R5RB will know, large scale PVP conflicts can ruin accounts and result in player loss. I understand a 'Tarkovian' 'always-at-risk-of-loss' feeling of danger is a core design element in Darkwind, but that does not mean players should be risking 'it all' by turning on their PVP flag, especially when loss in battle already carries material and personnel risks. I am not a fan of Home Tile loss, and am glad, that if it must be included, it is at least behind a long large process shielding against vendetta/outscaling murder. To move the game toward a more player based economy, one in which ideally the price of goods is reflected by the demands of player camps in the area without increasing the risk of unsightly market swings from playerdeath or systems exploit, my recommendation is thus: Make all player interactions generate wealth in the area in which they happened. This could take the form of flat-rate universal PVP bounties, tile income improvements, or nearest-town market effects. The intended purpose being that when material (overall value) is lost in PVP, that overall value of all players in the game (with localization to the event) is less reduced. Semi-related: Someone earlier on this topic brought up realism. Darkwind is not a Simulation game. Although it uses many excellent tropes from the genre to give the game an excellent verisimilitude for a post-apocalyptic wasteland, it is first and foremost a strategy game. If assed, I would probably classify it as an MMOTBSG (turn based strategy) with a strong penchant for rouge-like and simulation. Last talking point here: I think we can all agree that we would benefit from more players playing the game at various levels. There are three critical factors to increasing the general feeling of high occupancy. New user hits, Subscriber(or 'veteran') conversion rate, and career player retention. First is getting new players to the game. The game is too entrenched to much improve on look or UI and unless someone is hiding the indie-game equivelant of an angel investor in their back pocket, we won't be seeing DWII. So it is a given that new players must be okay with web-menus and the Bavarian-Motor-Werks in the 80's aesthetic. Thats okay, but this shouldn't mean we have to trawl around forums like its only 10 years later. There needs to be more ability for new players to access both game reference materials AND communicate with veterans. @*Sam* would it be possible to integrate a web-based IRC with the in-game chat to allow for increased communication? Second is turning those new players into subscribing, hardcore fans. The game does this pretty much on its own. In particular the feeling of progression and attachment to your assets is done just right. It is a tad slow to getting your first vehicle but then you're off to the races. (I heard many newbs received a gifted vehicle from a vet hanging out in chat, and have given a few myself, so its not a BIG issue but) I recommend making this floor slightly lower, since (at least for me) building the garage has been one of the most rewarding aspects of the game, and is a great hook for newbies Third is player (reader? sorry...) retention. I dropped off playing for a few years due to just one of the quagmires I discuss below, and I wonder how many other players can relate... There are a few bottlenecks that discussing will be of benefit. First is landing - it can be kind of rough. Getting into the tutorial is easy enough but once its over, you're left a bit spinning-tyres on how to actually manually get done the things the helpful people in the lobby or on the wiki have recommended. I think a site-guide or tutorial would be a massive improvement to this first bottleneck. Becoming an SS regular from there is pretty smooth, you dabble in the (poorly-paying) Northern Triangle travel game, you probably end up PVE scouting with friendlies in chat. The next bottleneck arrives at different times for different players and playstyles but ultimately is unified by having passed the mark of self-sufficiency enough to safely explore solo-operations and looking from there how continue growing their DW gang in meaningful ways, usually with an eye on 'how to do I get to late-game from here'. ((if you couldn't tell, this is where I feel I am at)). Once again, I'm not sure from first-hand experience how this goes, but from whats been intimated to me and my own inferences it seems there is another bottleneck for players who have achieved actual veterency, have big southern operations that pulled in good money, and probably started a camp, trying to get to the place Whales the-likes-of-which-compete-in-CoEII or other top tier events. To summarize, there are some critical stopgaps in player progression to be addressed to get players to the recruitable level for PVP in the first place, so any work done there will help improve the feeling of 'cooperation' and dampen any feeling of 'clique-y-ness' by improving the player pool. Lastly I want to add that y'all like to bicker. *Sam* deserves only love. You sound so ungrateful and disrespectful decrying new renovations to the game as being 'from-the-hip'. I have only admiration and applause for Harry who seems to the earnest and interested newcoming mediator to an entrenched table that many of us wish we could be. TL;DR: -Any system that is perceived to be inaccessible to players below a certain value (garage, ability, finance) will be perceived to be a 'rich get richer' whale-servicing scheme. Solution? Service new players too. -Give more positive incentive for players to interact with PVP in general, and for veterans to form relations with newer-than-them players. -Player run economies (especially with low population) still need 'social' safety nets. -Be nicer to *Sam* you asshats. |
