Krakhedd Posted Dec 6, 2015, 5:59 am	I'd like to open a discourse on camp ammo production. There was a factory set at 1% to test ammo production, camp MR 125 and making CC ammo. It was around 1800 hours per reload, or, if the factory was at 100%, it would be 18 hours. For a single CC reload. I believe the production time is simply 20% the speed of producing the weapon itself. But, 18 hours at a camp w/ a decent MR? And the factory would have to be 100%? Why bother even having ammo production available, especially considering it's easy to toast 30 CC rounds from a 2xCC vehicle in a single encounter, much less, an entire day (or 18 hours in this case)? My issue is basically the lack of practicality in producing ammo. Production rates that low, make it extremely expensive and impractical.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 6, 2015, 7:00 am	so basically we have a factory, whose upkeep at 100% would cost 12,000 $DW per week, 12 NPCs to work it.  Those NPCs are paid $10 each per day (12x10x7= $840) and they live in a house that holds 20 and costs $750 a week (12/20th of 750 being $450) Plus they eat and drink. Not even counting Food and water that places the cost of 1 week's production at $13,290 to make 9 reloads. Or about $1477 per reload And yet the cost in any town to BUY it is only $126 Yep that DOES seem a bit off kilter.  (Kinda like how a MRP reload weighs more than twice as much as a fully loaded MRP itself)
Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 6, 2015, 10:44 pm	I think even RGM ammo is not worth making at camp. Good post.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 9, 2015, 8:51 pm	*StCrispin* said: so basically we have a factory, whose upkeep at 100% would cost 12,000 $DW per week, 12 NPCs to work it.  Those NPCs are paid $10 each per day (12x10x7= $840) and they live in a house that holds 20 and costs $750 a week (12/20th of 750 being $450) Plus they eat and drink. Not even counting Food and water that places the cost of 1 week's production at $13,290 to make 9 reloads. Or about $1477 per reload And yet the cost in any town to BUY it is only $126 Yep that DOES seem a bit off kilter.  (Kinda like how a MRP reload weighs more than twice as much as a fully loaded MRP itself) I would think that trimming out the overhead and retail margins, should yield around 70% reduction in costs relative to purchase in-town.  So, each CC should cost around $40 in this case In keeping with that pricing, the production rate should be increased around 35 times ($1477/$40) to "make it right".
*The X Man* Posted Dec 9, 2015, 10:11 pm	I sent Sam the concerns on this topic. Once I get a response, I or Sam will post an update for further discussion.
Ragnak Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:00 pm	Joel Autobaun said: I think even RGM ammo is not worth making at camp.  Good post. That is exactly the point as to why it is as it is. At one time, camps could make tons of money making RGM ammo and selling it back at town. I think there are smart choices and really bad choices for camp production. I don't think everything has to be reasonable and ammo might just be one of those things. It's easily available in town so just truck it in.
*The X Man* Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:18 pm	Ragnak said: That is exactly the point as to why it is as it is. At one time, camps could make tons of money making RGM ammo and selling it back at town. I remember hearing something like this this from another player awhile back, but wasn't positive. I could definitely see the potential abuse of this. Making mega millions from short low risk travels from camp to a nearby town selling off ammo at over $2K per unit. Thanks for your input Ragnak. Hopefully this answers the questions in this thread.
Bolt Thrower Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:52 pm	Looking at the ammo list, rocket rack ammo and RGM ammo are high dollar items. MRP is actually the best on dollar per bulk. But these are all high ep items and could be brought in line by having high ep and high MR requirements, which would mitigate their profitability. As it is, even if CC ammo production was sped up, I wouldn't use it because I blow through 6 reloads per scout ( I think ~48 cp?), which doesn't account for other ammo. That significantly impacts my salvage net recovery, and a lot of my scouts, everything goes boom and all I get is scrap.
*Splurs* Posted Dec 10, 2015, 7:58 pm	Quote: That is exactly the point as to why it is as it is. At one time, camps could make tons of money making RGM ammo and selling it back at town. I can see a problem with this, however if we are looking at  a "real post apocolyptic world" where would the ammo come from? No-one is going to take days making a CC reload only to sell it for less than they can buy one from the shops from. Yes it might need some tweaking, however it sounds yet again like someone doesn't like it that money is being made and has complained, so to fix that issue the whole ammo production line gets broken.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 10, 2015, 8:39 pm	how much does it COST to make RGM ammo and what does it sell for? It sounds like whoever complained about RGM ammo bringing riches may not have thought the entire equation through. By comparison CC ammo NOT COUNTING materials needed in its production costs $1477 per reload and only sells back at $113 (and only costs $126 to buy) one issue may be the high sellback to purchase price ratio. In the case of some things like cars, the sellback ratio is only about 30% of the purchase cost (possibly less I cant remember the figures exactly from back when I was running cars from SF to Elms for scrap) So CARS are 20% to 30% of purchase cost and Ammo is 90% ? A bit off kilter there
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 10, 2015, 8:56 pm	yet another reason we need a dynamic economy where the game tracks population and production, supply and demand, cargo runs made by NPCs, town needs, etc... Because the true measure of what ammo should sell for, should be based on supply and demand. ----How many NPC mechanics live in SS? It requires 12 to make 9 CC reloads a week. ----How much CC ammo is expended in a week? Does SS have a population large enough to even make enough CC ammo for people that use it? probably, SS would be more like the size of NYC if it were dynamically modeled after the economic output it creates
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 10, 2015, 9:07 pm	then there is the glaring issue of NPC wages being $10 a day.  for CC ammo production this means WAGES ALONE are $840 a week.  for 9 reloads. SS sells those 9 for $1134 So assuming they produce these magically out of thin air (no materials needed) and without tools or any kind of production facility or any kind of overhead costs, they are marking them up only 30%? common practice in retail is a 250% to 500% markup.  and to buy items for reselling at 20% to 33% of their planned cost.  This is how cars and weapons are modeled in the game.  Why is Ammo an exception? Shouldn't a $1477 (cost without calculating in the cost of Materials) sell back for $500 and cost at least $4000 to buy? or is production costs and time a bit off kilter?
Krakhedd Posted Dec 12, 2015, 10:55 pm	*The X Man* said: Thanks for your input Ragnak. Hopefully this answers the questions in this thread. That sounds like a kibosh is being put on reforming ammo production, without even considering the economic disparities? If there's a problem with being able to earn too much cash hauling ammo to towns, then, the fix should not be that the ammo costs 10x as much in camp to make; that's a wee smidge disproportionate a reaction.  I would instead suggest that the ammos in question have their productivity adjusted to reflect a fairer valuation system. If Sam doesn't want to crunch the numbers, Crispy has already started to, and I'm a math whiz, I'd be happy to calculate rates of production. Also, I think ammos are limited by MR, so, RGM ammo could be completely taken out of the equation, so to speak.....easy peasy
*Splurs* Posted Dec 13, 2015, 5:51 am	If that's the way ammo production is going then can it just get taken out of game completely? As there is no-one that I could imagine that would use it. A newb camp in SS will move small quantities in, and bigger camps down south have the gangers to fight their way through. Not to mention wasting a factory on a horribly long time to make ammo. Wen they can use the same factory to make lots better items. I thought the whole MR idea of needing te same MR of the wpn to be built was painful enough, it might be hard to build a CC but wait, it's just as hard to make the shells for it too. I would like to see at least some kind of tweak or else it is just another useless part if the game that no one uses.
*Awefense* Posted Dec 13, 2015, 6:57 am	I suggest placing an NPC merchant that sells ammo in each camp. Add a link to the Camp Map page. Solves producing ammo. Solves selling produced ammo for profit. Solves hauling ammo into camp which is what this is all about, right? Only bad I see is it makes the game a tick easier. Awefense
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 13, 2015, 9:22 am	I believe its about: a-- Logic b-- Moving an entire gang to a camp and being self supporting without a town c-- Making Sense Hauling Ammo into camp isn't much work. My travel Squads could haul in around 300 CC reloads at a time (I roll 11 PUs, 2 Estates, 2 Landys and 9 BPUs per run. roughly 3600 bulk). depending which camp, that could be as often as Daily. *and no, not all in one squad, as that exceeds 20 cars and I rarely roll more than 6 in a travel squad due to time consumption. Plus only 1 scout per squad gets training! gotta train em all, Scout-eh-mon!
*Splurs* Posted Dec 16, 2015, 8:06 am	*BUMP* Sam, X-Man Have we heard any more about this?
*The X Man* Posted Dec 16, 2015, 9:35 am	Nope, nothing new at this time.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2015, 9:43 am	All the objections I've heard are easily overcome, and it is a component of the game that is massively whacked/otherwise grossly out of balance. FWIW, I plan to make primarily TG and MM ammos, I burn through those like crazy (as do others), some NG, occasional HGG. Oh and CC. I have no designs on running ammo to town for profit; it's not my motivation. Self-sufficiency, is.
Paul Simon Posted Dec 16, 2015, 3:29 pm	maybe there is a way to "tag" ammo produced at a camp so it can't be sold by NPC.?
*The X Man* Posted Dec 16, 2015, 7:02 pm	To really determine if this something that will be a benefit all players, we need input from as many camp owners as possible. If Sam sees there are enough requests on this thread, he could look into it further to see what it would take to fix or adjust. As it looks now, only the large camps with multiple factories would have the need or means to use this. Most players who want or have camps don't go in thinking, hey lets make ammo... to heck with buzzers. So this won't really benefit the small or independent camps. But, this still doesn't mean that it is not a good idea to fix. So I would suggest to you that you get the opinions from as many different camp owners as possible so Sam can see this as a fix for the many and not just a few or one.
*Splurs* Posted Dec 16, 2015, 7:22 pm	I have no doubts in my mind at all that this will only benifit a handful of camps, most people will still lorry it in, as they have better things to make, as you said Quote: Most players who want or have camps don't go in thinking, hey lets make ammo... to heck with buzzers. However the ammo making system is horribly broken and for those that want camps to be self sufficient making ammo goes along way. Would I personally sacrifice making buzzers for ammo, no I would not, however I would sacrifice a percentage of the buzzer to make ammo so I dont need to haul it in. Quote: So I would suggest to you that you get the opinions from as many different camp owners as possible so Sam can see this as a fix for the many and not just a few or one Is this not what just happened with the rep system? A few or one were using unarmoured lorries, it was deemed not the intent of the game, so it got changed? I fail to see how it benefited the majority of the player base. A few seem to want to use the camps to their full extent and cannot, because someone else exploited it in the past. Now I know some people are going to get on their high horse and say "Just lorry ammo in, it isn't that hard!" They are right, it isn't hard to lorry in, I even done it into camp with a 1L engine in a lorry, however that isn't the point. "Hey Marty, drive that lorry back into town and pick up some more ammo, we got factories sitting idle here but the town sells it alot cheaper than we can even make it, and it will be weeks before we even make 1 Car cannon round...." Not asking for anything new, just the broken things to be fixed.
PA Racers Posted Dec 16, 2015, 7:39 pm	Splurs said: I have no doubts in my mind at all that this will only benifit a handful of camps, most people will still lorry it in, as they have better things to make, as you said Quote: Most players who want or have camps don't go in thinking, hey lets make ammo... to heck with buzzers. However the ammo making system is horribly broken and for those that want camps to be self sufficient making ammo goes along way. Would I personally sacrifice making buzzers for ammo, no I would not, however I would sacrifice a percentage of the buzzer to make ammo so I dont need to haul it in. Quote: So I would suggest to you that you get the opinions from as many different camp owners as possible so Sam can see this as a fix for the many and not just a few or one Is this not what just happened with the rep system? A few or one were using unarmoured lorries, it was deemed not the intent of the game, so it got changed? I fail to see how it benefited the majority of the player base. A few seem to want to use the camps to their full extent and cannot, because someone else exploited it in the past. Now I know some people are going to get on their high horse and say "Just lorry ammo in, it isn't that hard!" They are right, it isn't hard to lorry in, I even done it into camp with a 1L engine in a lorry, however that isn't the point. "Hey Marty, drive that lorry back into town and pick up some more ammo, we got factories sitting idle here but the town sells it alot cheaper than we can even make it, and it will be weeks before we even make 1 Car cannon round...." Not asking for anything new, just the broken things to be fixed. I agree with pretty much everything said here! When your camp is 770 miles from town such as againcourt, hauling it in is not as easy.
*The X Man* Posted Dec 16, 2015, 9:58 pm	Splurs said: I have no doubts in my mind at all that this will only benifit a handful of camps, most people will still lorry it in, as they have better things to make, as you said Quote: Most players who want or have camps don't go in thinking, hey lets make ammo... to heck with buzzers. However the ammo making system is horribly broken and for those that want camps to be self sufficient making ammo goes along way. Would I personally sacrifice making buzzers for ammo, no I would not, however I would sacrifice a percentage of the buzzer to make ammo so I dont need to haul it in. Quote: So I would suggest to you that you get the opinions from as many different camp owners as possible so Sam can see this as a fix for the many and not just a few or one Is this not what just happened with the rep system? A few or one were using unarmoured lorries, it was deemed not the intent of the game, so it got changed? I fail to see how it benefited the majority of the player base. A few seem to want to use the camps to their full extent and cannot, because someone else exploited it in the past. Now I know some people are going to get on their high horse and say "Just lorry ammo in, it isn't that hard!" They are right, it isn't hard to lorry in, I even done it into camp with a 1L engine in a lorry, however that isn't the point. "Hey Marty, drive that lorry back into town and pick up some more ammo, we got factories sitting idle here but the town sells it alot cheaper than we can even make it, and it will be weeks before we even make 1 Car cannon round...." Not asking for anything new, just the broken things to be fixed. The difference here is one fixed an exploit while the other is fixing a feature. Two totally different things.
*The X Man* Posted Dec 16, 2015, 10:02 pm	PA Racers said: When your camp is 770 miles from town such as againcourt, hauling it in is not as easy. These are the type of comments or opinions we need to show good reason why a change is needed. I hope others can add to this. The more good and valid points made here helps move things towards a change or fix.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 17, 2015, 5:05 am	*The X Man* said: The difference here is one fixed an exploit while the other is fixing a feature. Two totally different things. Not for nothing, but it was only deemed an "exploit" after a small core of players to whom Sam listens, made enough noise, that it became less stressful for him to change it. As it is, reps appear to have been returned to pre-change condition - which itself might be a suggestion that "fix" was also less than ideal. I'm glad for the new renegades though, they make it interesting.  Though I'd like to see them be truceable vs. neg spec, and I'm not sure I've seen one that's bountied yet.  Oh, and it would be nice to have the gang pages updated so they don't say they're raiders still, when they're renegades (Mobsters, for one). But yeah this really is all about self-sufficiency, from my perspective.
darthspanky Posted Dec 17, 2015, 6:16 am	it doesnt affect me or my camp so i say dont change it, i could care less what big camp owners want, there are alot more important things to change imo, just quit yer bitching and deal with what we have *gives everyone the middle finger*
Krakhedd Posted Dec 17, 2015, 6:56 am	darthspanky said: it doesnt affect me or my camp so i say dont change it, i could care less what big camp owners want, there are alot more important things to change imo, just quit yer bitching and deal with what we have *gives everyone the middle finger* ...sounds community-conscious, to me!
*sam* Posted Dec 17, 2015, 10:16 am	I will take a look at the ammo thing, I can see that it's out of whack with weapons manufacturing costs. Krakhedd said: *The X Man* said: The difference here is one fixed an exploit while the other is fixing a feature. Two totally different things. Not for nothing, but it was only deemed an "exploit" after a small core of players to whom Sam listens, made enough noise, that it became less stressful for him to change it. However, please stop dredging this one up, Krak. I have already refuted your claim and stated that the travel exploit was always considered to be an exploit by me. As I said before, the very concept of risk-free travel across the whole game map is totally contrary to everything I had ever wanted the game to be. To claim that it should ever be seen by me as a feature rather than a bug is patently ridiculous.
Racing Robbie Posted Dec 17, 2015, 2:42 pm	Krakhedd said: I'm glad for the new renegades though, they make it interesting.  Though I'd like to see them be truceable vs. neg spec, and I'm not sure I've seen one that's bountied yet.  Oh, and it would be nice to have the gang pages updated so they don't say they're raiders still, when they're renegades (Mobsters, for one). The new renegades are the ones listed in the gazette, Mobsters as far as I know are still of the raider faction. The gang web page I believe is an error but Sam will have to confirm that. I suspect they will have to earn their bounties like everyone else :-)
Krakhedd Posted Dec 17, 2015, 6:49 pm	*sam* said: I will take a look at the ammo thing, I can see that it's out of whack with weapons manufacturing costs. Let us know if you want help!
*goat starer* Posted Dec 18, 2015, 1:13 am	Krakhedd said: *sam* said: I will take a look at the ammo thing, I can see that it's out of whack with weapons manufacturing costs. Let us know if you want help! im sure if he needs a ditch digging you will be somewhere on the list of people to call.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 18, 2015, 5:53 pm	goat starer said: Krakhedd said: *sam* said: I will take a look at the ammo thing, I can see that it's out of whack with weapons manufacturing costs. Let us know if you want help! im sure if he needs a ditch digging you will be somewhere on the list of people to call. Well if I wanted a helpful comment, or anything constructive, I know not to ask you
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 19, 2015, 1:50 am	*The X Man* said: PA Racers said: When your camp is 770 miles from town such as againcourt, hauling it in is not as easy. These are the type of comments or opinions we need to show good reason why a change is needed. I hope others can add to this. The more good and valid points made here helps move things towards a change or fix. You mean other than the fact it costs $1477 to make 1 CC reload (not counting the materiels needed to make it) and it only costs $126 in town to buy it?  Which makes no economic sense whatsoever unless the NPCs are Harry Potter and use their Magical PSI Skills (spells) to "Summon CC Ammo" and keep it in their "Bag of Endless Ammo Holding" for selling in SS? I would have moved my who gang to FLinT (now called Bullet Farm) back when I first got a camp, but I couldn't since camps find it impossible to be self sufficient and need Ammo hauled in.  I could have covered food and water but the Ammo issue was a slap in the face.  I can make 14 SMGs a day but SMG ammo...  2.  It was cheaper and faster to make the weapon and discard it when it ran out of ammo
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 19, 2015, 1:52 am	darthspanky said: it doesnt affect me or my camp so i say dont change it, i could care less what big camp owners want, there are alot more important things to change imo, just quit yer bitching and deal with what we have *gives everyone the middle finger* Make Weapons and Buzzers take equally unrealistic times to produce as ammo and see who starts crying then.
darthspanky Posted Dec 19, 2015, 6:18 am	go ahead and make times longer i dont care it would only cause you to bitch more so i say do it and ill just enjoy watching you bitch about that.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 20, 2015, 8:05 am	*sam* said: I will take a look at the ammo thing, I can see that it's out of whack with weapons manufacturing costs. Krakhedd said: *The X Man* said: The difference here is one fixed an exploit while the other is fixing a feature. Two totally different things. Not for nothing, but it was only deemed an "exploit" after a small core of players to whom Sam listens, made enough noise, that it became less stressful for him to change it. However, please stop dredging this one up, Krak. I have already refuted your claim and stated that the travel exploit was always considered to be an exploit by me. As I said before, the very concept of risk-free travel across the whole game map is totally contrary to everything I had ever wanted the game to be. To claim that it should ever be seen by me as a feature rather than a bug is patently ridiculous. In the interest of Accuracy and such, I wanted to mention that 2 years ago this was not considered an exploit.  It was just an unplanned result of game balance issue that needed fixed. as shown in a December 2013 post: *Sam* said: This seems like a game balancing issue rather than an exploit as such. However, it does need to be fixed. This is a good suggestion: *Snipe* said: A relatively easy fix. Raiders should NEVER truce.  They are raiders, who needs friends? Also think that slavers shouldn't truce either, they are too busy trying to bring home the slaves. This system would fail given just one or 2 factions with the inability to truce out.  And having a few wild cards will make the system in question disintegrate. Thanks for the newest fix though.  Hopefully it helps
*The X Man* Posted Dec 20, 2015, 9:03 am	Apparently, you didn't read or understand what Sam said Crispin. Sam said the rep issue needed balancing. The risk free travel exploit, Sam said was always an exploit. Now that makes it accurate. So stop dry humping the dead horse here and please move along to your ammo production spreadsheet... that is what this thread is supposed to be about??
*sam* Posted Dec 20, 2015, 11:04 am	An unplanned game balancing issue that needs to be fixed. And in the meantime is being exploited. Yep. That's precisely what an exploit is.
*Brunwulf* Posted Dec 20, 2015, 12:43 pm	*sam* said: An unplanned game balancing issue that needs to be fixed. And in the meantime is being exploited. Yep. That's precisely what an exploit is. Maybe there could be a list of known exploits put up for all players to see- then have no excuses if they get caught, and would also be a definate word from SAM on what the difference between an exploit, and a 'clever trick' is- eg: the lorry travel unmanned trick.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 20, 2015, 6:31 pm	*sam* said: An unplanned game balancing issue that needs to be fixed. And in the meantime is being exploited. Yep. That's precisely what an exploit is. I believe you told everybody to stop calling me an exploiter at the time.  Suggesting it wasn't viewed as an exploit at that time.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 20, 2015, 8:00 pm	http://dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=22888 Page 20 *sam* said: @Everyone else: Please stop accusing Krakhedd of being an exploiter. I already said I considered this to be a balancing issue rather than an exploit. I am considering some tweaks to make it harder to truce your way around the map.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 20, 2015, 8:01 pm	So, yes, at some point during the past 2 years, this went from being considered a "balancing issue" to an "exploit". So, again, I would ask to stop being referred to as an exploiter, or any inference made that I was.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 20, 2015, 10:21 pm	*The X Man* said: Apparently, you didn't read or understand what Sam said Crispin. Sam said the rep issue needed balancing. The risk free travel exploit, Sam said was always an exploit. Now that makes it accurate. So stop dry humping the dead horse here and please move along to your ammo production spreadsheet... that is what this thread is supposed to be about?? Its really just semantics. The issue itself (now being said was always an exploit) isn't the exploit.  the acting upon its weakness was.  That's why I said IN THE INTEREST OFF ACCURACY so that anyone not involved in that discussion 2 years ago (pre-steam) would understand the background in that the mechanics of the game itself wasn't the problem.  it was playing the game in a certain way that was. We have to make sure that if something seems too easy or that we feel like we are doing really well at the game after putting in months of effort and time and sweat and DW$, that maybe its not a point we were intended to reach.  and that capitalizing on our hard work might not be allowed (even if you email Sam after 2 marshals tell you its okay and ask for his input and he says he "thinks" its okay.  which I did.  however I never reached that level of accomplishment to do it for more than 3 days) right now we are simply casting a light on Tango, Boon, Myself, Necro, and Krak (and some other I cant remember for sure) and saying they are cheaters and knew better, which isn't totally accurate.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 20, 2015, 10:41 pm	oh...  Yeah I missed this post. So really then I guess we should simply ask people to do what *Sam* told people to do 2 years ago instead of what X is currently saying about us not understanding. So...  X... *sam* said: @Everyone else: Please stop accusing Krakhedd of being an exploiter. I already said I considered this to be a balancing issue rather than an exploit. I am considering some tweaks to make it harder to truce your way around the map. Maybe you can re-read that forum because *The X Man* said: Apparently, you didn't read or understand what Sam said because this seems pretty clear to me *sam* said: @Everyone else: Please stop accusing Krakhedd of being an exploiter. I already said I considered this to be a balancing issue rather than an exploit. I am considering some tweaks to make it harder to truce your way around the map. and to make sure *Sam* doesn't think im just ragging on him: SAM THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WORK YOU HAVE DONE ON THIS ISSUE OVER THE PAST 2 YEARS!  Maybe its fixed finally or maybe not.  Time will tell BUT WE APRECIATE IT! Just if people can stop calling us Exploiters and Cheaters please... (((((Next someone will say:  "If it needed fixed, and WAS TWEAKED to fix it, then when we discovered it Wasn't Fixed or just *Differently Able* then you should have reported it."))))) (((((then we will point out that we DID report it))))) (((((Then we will continue to argue back and forth))))) So, can we just drop the whole Tango, Krak, Necro, Boon and Crisp are cheaters lobby, IM and PM accusations and just let *Sam* see if the latest Fix works?
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 20, 2015, 11:29 pm	And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others) If it works for Car Chassis, Engines, Weapons and Tyres in those towns why wouldn't it work for Ammo? Then players making it and selling it would have a purpose. Not that they would sell CC ammo that cost them $1477 plus Materiels to make, at $115 to the NPC. it would be in the player market for a more realistic price.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 20, 2015, 11:42 pm	I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. I'm not sure limited ammo would go well for noobs especially. And seems it would weight things toward players with camps close to towns. Which would be great for me, but, not great for the larger community. Oops did I just make a rec based on the community first? I think I did. I wish everybody were so capable of objective thought
*Tango* Posted Dec 21, 2015, 12:38 am	*StCrispin* said: And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others)  Yeah, and while we're at it let's have to mine for the materials, smelt the shell casing metal, harvest your own saltpeter, mix your own gunpowder... etc. etc. etc. Realism can trump fun, if you let it. Imagine not being able to scout or compete in events because someone bought all the ammo to try and corner the market. At this point I'd say your suggestion reaches too far.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2015, 1:36 am	*Tango* said: *StCrispin* said: And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others)  Yeah, and while we're at it let's have to mine for the materials, smelt the shell casing metal, harvest your own saltpeter, mix your own gunpowder... etc. etc. etc. Realism can trump fun, if you let it. Imagine not being able to scout or compete in events because someone bought all the ammo to try and corner the market. At this point I'd say your suggestion reaches too far. I think I suggested Mines...  wait we already have them... (scrap metal mining facility) and smelting...  wait we already do that (scrap metal mining facility) and mixing the gunpowder...  wait we already do that (Mech shop) I mean I think I suggested being able to forage for materiels such as...  the salt perter but that can also be extracted from metal mining facilities so it was redundant. I'd love foraging for lumber and fighting a scout that had been sent out to gather lumber for repairs to SS town walls as part of the town defense programming.  Like they had in PotBS with supplies for war fighting. Would open up a lot of new content for gameplay without there being a huge input of actual content
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2015, 1:39 am	*Tango* said: Imagine not being able to scout or compete in events because someone bought all the ammo to try and corner the market. At this point I'd say your suggestion reaches too far. I can imagine this really well. I play SCAV
*Awefense* Posted Dec 21, 2015, 5:13 am	I think ammo should be handled in an entirely new way. Forget production. Shift ammo production and sales to the NPC's. Add a link under the Buildings tab on the Camp Map Page. Call it The Armory or Ammo Dump. Sell ammo there at inflated camp prices. NPC's should make more from camp sales than they do in town because they are now shipping it into camp. You still have the option of running your own. This system could be further fleshed out by limiting quantities of available npc ammo in camp. Maybe even have a base set of ammo available at every camp, your machine guns, car rifle, etc. Open more slots via chrome or $DW payments. Several interesting ideas in this thread. The only idea I do not like at all is Crispy's idea of limiting ammo in town. If I wanted to suffer in scav, I'd play scav. Awefense
Krakhedd Posted Dec 21, 2015, 7:36 am	Awefense said: I think ammo should be handled in an entirely new way. Forget production. Shift ammo production and sales to the NPC's. Add a link under the Buildings tab on the Camp Map Page. Call it The Armory or Ammo Dump. Sell ammo there at inflated camp prices. NPC's should make more from camp sales than they do in town because they are now shipping it into camp. You still have the option of running your own. This system could be further fleshed out by limiting quantities of available npc ammo in camp. Maybe even have a base set of ammo available at every camp, your machine guns, car rifle, etc. Open more slots via chrome or $DW payments. Several interesting ideas in this thread. The only idea I do not like at all is Crispy's idea of limiting ammo in town. If I wanted to suffer in scav, I'd play scav. Awefense A completely new way to go than what we have but that doesn't mean it's bad.  I wonder if it could be expanded to include the ability to hire NPCs on contract for scouts and travels?  As soon as they arrive in the next town or back to camp, their contract terminates.
*sam* Posted Dec 21, 2015, 11:25 am	Krakhedd said: Awefense said: I think ammo should be handled in an entirely new way. Forget production. Shift ammo production and sales to the NPC's. Add a link under the Buildings tab on the Camp Map Page. Call it The Armory or Ammo Dump. Sell ammo there at inflated camp prices. NPC's should make more from camp sales than they do in town because they are now shipping it into camp. You still have the option of running your own. This system could be further fleshed out by limiting quantities of available npc ammo in camp. Maybe even have a base set of ammo available at every camp, your machine guns, car rifle, etc. Open more slots via chrome or $DW payments. Several interesting ideas in this thread. The only idea I do not like at all is Crispy's idea of limiting ammo in town. If I wanted to suffer in scav, I'd play scav. Awefense A completely new way to go than what we have but that doesn't mean it's bad.  I wonder if it could be expanded to include the ability to hire NPCs on contract for scouts and travels?  As soon as they arrive in the next town or back to camp, their contract terminates. There is actually one reason that I really like the concept of mercenaries:  it might promote PvP.
*sam* Posted Dec 21, 2015, 11:27 am	Krakhedd said: I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. So would I! I'm not sure if it's feasible in DW1 though. But in DW2 for sure.
*sam* Posted Dec 21, 2015, 1:03 pm	Ok, I have reduced the time required for manufacturing ammo, by a factor of 6. I don't recall the issue with people making RGM ammo and selling it to NPCs for a profit, but I don't think RGM ammo can be made at all now (presumably that change was made at the time?) Let me know how it seems now. - does it make ammo less ridiculous to manufacture? - without making it into a free way to print money?
Bolt Thrower Posted Dec 21, 2015, 4:13 pm	*sam* said: Krakhedd said: I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. So would I! I'm not sure if it's feasible in DW1 though. But in DW2 for sure. I would like an economy like more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXl32cTZ71A see 6:35 to 9:15
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2015, 8:37 pm	*sam* said: Krakhedd said: include the ability to hire NPCs on contract for scouts and travels?  As soon as they arrive in the next town or back to camp, their contract terminates. There is actually one reason that I really like the concept of mercenaries:  it might promote PvP. You mentioned during Steam release that this would (I think you used the word "likely" maybe?) be implemented as an item to spend Chrome on. I would defiantly spend chrome on it!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2015, 8:43 pm	a Factor of 6 seems a bit fast.  I'll crunch some numbers on it and see where it sits now but this means (using Krak's previous data) that CC ammo in a 100% factory would be produced in 3 hours?  Or 8 reloads a day... Not counting Materiels used in production of cost of Food and Water for workers, that makes a reload cost $237 comparative to cost from NPC of $126 equates to 88% markup or thereabouts depending on how you do your math.  ($111 more than town cost) Sounds fair to me considereing there are a couple costs not included in the calculations.  And certainly no profit to be made manufacturing it and selling it in town.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 22, 2015, 12:27 am	Testing now Underway. However theres yet another factor that seems illogical. Im testing in Camp David by making HMG ammo at 100% production rate. I wont consider the oddity of having to pay $160,000 just to start making the ammo which in itself makes it mostly pointless to make your own ammo in camp since that alone would buy 1,860 reloads What gets me is that it takes 3 Car parts. A CP varies in Value across Evan.  In SS its a bit over $400 each, GW is $330+ each, but overall even with price fluctuations and town differences its $250-$350 per CP So PARTS ALONE for making 1 HMG reload is $750 - $1050 to make a reload that would only be $86 in town. Not asking for a change, but Im thinking the discussion about rates may deserve further consideration after testing and the acquisition of more hard data.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 22, 2015, 2:29 am	I intentionally neglected to include CP costs as I consider these to be easy to get in camps. Of course, then again, an elite to Crispy is a cross-trained 75-100 skill ganger; elite to me is in the 250 cross-trained range...and Bombed Luna Road is a very difficult map, I would say even more difficult and treacherous than Bridge Out in Badlands. Also....the NPC markets presumably include a retail mark-up. So, if a reload is $100 (to work w/ even numbers), and a 60-70% retail mark-up, we're looking at an actual cost of around $60 ($100 / 1.6 = $62.50; / 1.7 = $58.82). And we haven't even begun to look at large-bulk reloads, like TG especially and MM to a lesser extent. I'm afraid to even check production rates on them.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 22, 2015, 2:32 am	I messed up my math on the 1st page w/ the $40/reload figure. The accurate figure would be $126 / 60% (retail markup) = $78.75, far shy of the $1477 Crisp calculated (minus CPs which I'm again assuming are free). So, an increase of 6x goes a ways, for sure, but I wonder if it should be closer to 10x-15x, maybe even 20x.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 22, 2015, 4:37 am	Krakhedd said: then again, an elite to Crispy is a cross-trained 75-100 skill ganger Because they die in disasterous Krak-Scouts at around 98 skill. lol.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 22, 2015, 6:24 am	I been culling my crews with Boon, you haven't been around to join in all the fun..... But that's off-topic....I'll check ammo production rates for my desired ammos, give me a couple or a few weeks and I'll report my findings. It will only be a couple or a few ammo types.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 23, 2015, 7:31 am	*StCrispin* said: And back on topic. Ammo, yeah. So how about making Ammo sold by NPCs in town NOT INFINITE and have it only have available a small "Produced amount" per week plus the ammo sold to the NPCs from scouts selling their loot (LIKE HOW WEAPONS, ENGINES, CAR CHASSIS, AND TYRES ARE ALREADY DONE IN SOUTHERN TOWNS LIKE SARSFIELD and TEXAN and possibly others) If it works for Car Chassis, Engines, Weapons and Tyres in those towns why wouldn't it work for Ammo?  Then players making it and selling it would have a purpose.  Not that they would sell CC ammo that cost them $1477 plus Materiels to make, at $115 to the NPC.  it would be in the player market for a more realistic price.  Hmmm.. Yes...we could make everything scarce in towns and have s dynamic economy that relies entirely on looting and camp production! Somebody should come up with a name for it... Darkwind Salvager? Dark wind Scrappager?... Answers on a postcard.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 23, 2015, 7:34 am	On a serious point... Common ammo is never a problem in scavenger. If camps made the rare stuff ammo would work just fine with just s player market in regular. Any worries about people being unable to scout would be remove if the time to change weapons was also removed. And camps making and selling ammo makes s lot more sense than rolling off ambulances.
*Splurs* Posted Dec 26, 2015, 12:26 am	I don't believe ammo should be limited, as was said earlier it will make vets better and hurt the newer players. I don't really believ ammo should use as much car parts either, instead I would of thought more scrap metal and less car parts. The way I have seen it so far with older people selling off ammo to make a profit wouldn't you make more money just moving the car parts? I have just switched to nape ammo, takes 34 hrs 2 car parts, that is at 1% I do agree that car parts in camp are easy to come by, and the nape ammo seems like it should be well balance, and now worthwhile to make at least that kind of ammo. Means 1 less I need to move in.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 29, 2015, 1:17 am	bear in mind that at 1% you are paying: (Per Week) $120 upkeep. $840 NPC Wages $450 Housing Upkeep (for 12 NPCs) $160 Food/Water (Cheap Northern estimate) NOT COUNTING CPs: Cost $1570 to make ALMOST 5 reloads. Camp Nape Reload at 1% costs: $314 (not counting $500 to $700 worth of parts) Town Nape Reload: $60 Somehow the NPCs are making a profit.  Or they are a buncha rubes
*The X Man* Posted Dec 29, 2015, 6:12 am	*StCrispin* said: bear in mind that at 1% you are paying: (Per Week) $120 upkeep. $840 NPC Wages $450 Housing Upkeep (for 12 NPCs) $160 Food/Water (Cheap Northern estimate) NOT COUNTING CPs: Cost $1570 to make ALMOST 5 reloads. Camp Nape Reload at 1% costs: $314 (not counting $500 to $700 worth of parts) Town Nape Reload: $60 Somehow the NPCs are making a profit.  Or they are a buncha rubes Whether you make ammo or make nothing, you still have housing upkeep. So this doesn't apply. (Same could be argued about the factory or mech shops, but I will leave these two out for now) Whether you make ammo or make nothing, your mechs will still consume food and water. So this doesn't apply. Car Parts are FREE from loot broken down at camp, So this doesn't apply. I am sure recalculating your spreadsheet with these adjustments, your costs per clip will be much more in reality. Plus, I hope you subtract any production boosts your camp has. because that will skew production costs too. Also, run your factory at 100% so you get the most accurate figures.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 30, 2015, 10:11 pm	*The X Man* said: Whether you make ammo or make nothing, your mechs will still consume food and water. So this doesn't apply. So by this logic, if you feed your workers in real life, you cant count that as an expense on your business books because they would have eaten something anyway? I need to live near you so you can feed me for not working! *The X Man* said: Car Parts are FREE from loot broken down at camp, So this doesn't apply. Town NPCs don't have camps.  Do they also get free CPs that are then not factored into their profit/loss reports for town sales? We are talking about the logic of the economy here.  Somehow the Town NPCs Magically create free CPs and don't EAT OR DRINK, and don't have rent, or Upkeep or any expenses.  Because if they did, then the economy would have to make sense. So by your point of view this is Harry Potter World with Cars and Guns and nothing needs to actually make any sense (even the economy) Not trying to be sarcastic or snide, just putting it into perspective for the nay-sayers. *The X Man* said: I am sure recalculating your spreadsheet with these adjustments, your costs per clip will be much more in reality. Nope, it would be much more like Magic. Harry Potter said: "Expecto Ammuinitio!" - *The X Man* said: Plus, I hope you subtract any production boosts your camp has. because that will skew production costs too. I don't have Production Boosts and since we are discussing the NPC's ability to produce Ammo at such a low cost comparatively I would say they must be some ALT-ING MFers with a bunch of Truce Travel MoFos running 20 Lorry Squads all over the place like a Krak-Tastic Fiend!  Makin that money and buying Sponsors all over the place. *The X Man* said: Also, run your factory at 100% so you get the most accurate figures. Unless 100% is 100 times 1% Or 1% is 1/100th of 100% Like with real math. then its the same but with more production and more cost.  ($12,000 instead of $120, with the rest being the same)
*The X Man* Posted Dec 30, 2015, 11:05 pm	All I am pointing out is you factor in things that don't apply or have zero cost from a game POV. We are also talking about your camp production spreadsheet, not the town mechanic/marketplace. The main part of this discussion started because it took way too long to make. Cost really wasn't the issue, it was more of how fast I can fill my lockups with ammo. At least Sam addressed that by 6X which should be a good start for your clip pile.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 30, 2015, 11:12 pm	im talking about bringing the Economy in line with reality.  If it means We begin that process with an analysis of Ammunition Production, usinging Camps as a basis for an example of cost, then that's the place we start.  We have no hard Data from any other source, just conjecture. If an item made in town requires 2 items that cost $250 each in town, and then the Townie that made that item (in town) sells the end product for $60... that's technically an Exploit if you buy it
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 30, 2015, 11:35 pm	*The X Man* said: The main part of this discussion started because it took way too long to make. Cost really wasn't the issue, it was more of how fast I can fill my lockups with ammo. At least Sam addressed that by 6X which should be a good start for your clip pile. It seemed like a good start to me, until I got feedback on it that bordered on outrage.  So i decided to once again look at it. Personally I'd rather just haul it in since I can haul 3500 Bulk per run in my Pickups.  But I should probably just run Water from Elms to TX and Fuel back to SS for that massive money.  (1.3 million per round trip currently).  Then I could get a sponsorship and get one of those Production boosts you speak of.  But those just seem like Cheating to me.
Krakhedd Posted Jan 1, 2016, 10:45 pm	1st try @ ammo in Rapture's End 161 MR 52% factory activity 12 NPC workers 12.5% boost MM ammo, 1 every 5 hours, 7 CPs So every 5 days, 24 MM reloads will be manufactured, using a total 168 CPs. That's a lot of CPs to run through, and at that amount of consumption, I wonder if we should indeed count some cost of CPs in the equation. Crisp, you wanna run the numbers please?
Krakhedd Posted Jan 1, 2016, 11:06 pm	*The X Man* said: *StCrispin* said: bear in mind that at 1% you are paying: (Per Week) $120 upkeep. $840 NPC Wages $450 Housing Upkeep (for 12 NPCs) $160 Food/Water (Cheap Northern estimate) NOT COUNTING CPs: Cost $1570 to make ALMOST 5 reloads. Camp Nape Reload at 1% costs: $314 (not counting $500 to $700 worth of parts) Town Nape Reload: $60 Somehow the NPCs are making a profit.  Or they are a buncha rubes Whether you make ammo or make nothing, you still have housing upkeep. So this doesn't apply. (Same could be argued about the factory or mech shops, but I will leave these two out for now) Whether you make ammo or make nothing, your mechs will still consume food and water. So this doesn't apply. Car Parts are FREE from loot broken down at camp, So this doesn't apply. I am sure recalculating your spreadsheet with these adjustments, your costs per clip will be much more in reality. Plus, I hope you subtract any production boosts your camp has. because that will skew production costs too. Also, run your factory at 100% so you get the most accurate figures. To say none of these things matters, is analogous to saying the "phantom townies" who make the goods, are eating and drinking "phantom food and water" and costs nothing; that the CPs also don't exist and cost nothing. The only way to examine if the ammo feature is out of whack, is to consider all the costs.  CPs, again, I understand leaving out, but after seeing how many ammo production takes, I wonder if it should be. Stop being afraid anybody is trying to get rich, X.  I, for one, am only trying to make the camp experience more fun and more fair, by using a feature that seems out-of-whack. Also, knowing the exact costs of everything, will help us to clarify ammo types that may be vulnerable to exploitative-level profiteering, and then we will be able to act upon a resolution. And the variance between 1% and 100% is great, yes, but, even at 10%, we are within 1% variance.  Factories don't need to be more than 20-25% to be extremely accurate.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:10 am	that's a lot of CPs. CP value alone (depending on how you place value on them...  I use an average which is "between $250 and $350" based on Evan Wide sell/buy values because if you DIDNT use those making ammo and you SOLD THEM INSTEAD, that's what they would be worth to you) is $42,000 to $58,800 ($2000 to $2450 per reload) 52% factory for 5/7 of a week: $4457 Food (5 days): $60 (based on Cheap Northern prices) Water (5 days): $60 (as above) (food and water counted because if you weren't producing anything at all and put your food in a Lorry the NPCs would NOT eat it...  Invalidating X Man's claim they would eat it anyway). Worker Pay (5 Days, Wiki Value): $600 Housing for 12 (5 days): $321 TOTAL COST Without CPs: $5498 With CPs: $53498 to $64298 Cost per Reload with 12.5% Boost: No CP: $229 each with CP: $2229 each to $2679 each Estimate without boost: (Assuming 12.5% boost means you make 12.5% more product) No CP: $262 With CP: $2548 each to $3062 Each Cost in town: $134
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:23 am	*StCrispin* said: (food and water counted because if you weren't producing anything at all and put your food in a Lorry the NPCs would NOT eat it...  Invalidating X Man's claim they would eat it anyway). I am just curious, once you set the factory and you click on it, it tells you what it takes to produce that item. Example - A 5LV12 takes 40 CPs and 45 EPs to produce one engine. When you click on the ammo factory... please tell me how many CPs and exactly how many food and water it takes to produce one clip??
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:45 am	*The X Man* said: *StCrispin* said: (food and water counted because if you weren't producing anything at all and put your food in a Lorry the NPCs would NOT eat it...  Invalidating X Man's claim they would eat it anyway). I am just curious, once you set the factory and you click on it, it tells you what it takes to produce that item. Example - A 5LV12 takes 40 CPs and 45 EPs to produce one engine. When you click on the ammo factory... please tell me how many CPs and exactly how many food and water it takes to produce one clip?? Depends on the Ammo you are making. Bear in mind I don't want to "search them all" as it costs $10,000 just to change what kind of ammo you are making and I don't feel like shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to build that database. That Said we so far know the following: Napalm ammo: 2CP HMG Ammo: 3CP MM Ammo: 7CP Food, Water and NPC wages are taken from the Wiki.  Which may or may not be accurate.  Unless *Sam* can provide this data I can only work off the what the Wiki Says at this point in time. What it says is: ---NPC Wages are $10 per day per NPC. (Factory has 12 NPC Workers, thus $840 a week) ---Food and Water requirement is 1 per 10 workers per day of each.  (1.2 each per day or 8.4 per week)  I rounded down to 8 per week. My personal feeling is that the Wiki is not correct about food water or wage requirements but I don't know how far off it is. Thus with the information given here, and basing it off MM ammo from what Krak was just mentioning above: 1 MM ammo (in a 54% factory with a 12.5% boost) uses 7 CP, 1/4th unit food, 1/4th unit water
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:55 am	*StCrispin* said: 1 MM ammo (in a 54% factory with a 12.5% boost) uses 7 CP, 1/4th unit food, 1/4th unit water So when you click on your MM ammo factory, it says takes 7 CPs, 0.25 units or water and 0.25 units of food???
Krakhedd Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:01 am	The food and water are nowhere near as easily obtainable for many camps as the CPs etc. Those are valid costs, no matter which way you try to twist it, sorry.
Krakhedd Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:06 am	We are examining each and every cost factor here, it's the only way to gain a good idea of total expense.
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:07 am	Krakhedd said: The food and water are nowhere near as easily obtainable for many camps as the CPs etc.  Those are valid costs, no matter which way you try to twist it, sorry. You can't twist fact. Does or does it not show the amount of food and water needed in production of your ammo factory?? A simple yes or no will do nicely.
Krakhedd Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:57 am	Does the factory run by itself without any NPC workers, which require food water, shelter, and a paycheck? Or do they just magically make stuff as you propose they do in towns? A simple yes/no will equally suffice.
Krakhedd Posted Jan 2, 2016, 1:58 am	And the answer to your question is, not exactly - it shows it as 12 NPCs working in the factory
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 2:39 am	Krakhedd said: And the answer to your question is, not exactly - it shows it as 12 NPCs working in the factory Thats about as weak an answer as expected, especially when you know what it says. Since you can't figure it out, I have included an example for you. No food or water requirements. Even though this is a engine factory, I am pretty sure it wouldn't require more items to make simple ammo clips?? I would ask right or wrong, but you seem to have an issue with one word responses.
*Splurs* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:21 am	I really don't understand why people need to hate on others. The fact of the matter is if you have a factory there and the house to have the workers then yes it would be costing you the same amount of money if it makes ammo or nothing, HOWEVER when your trying to make a profit from producing an item you take into account all costs associated with that item. If that isn't the case why do people sell anything for money at camp? Food/water can't be taken into account as they would be needed anyway, CP/EP/Scrap/Plastics can all be gotten from scouting, then with this logic there is no cost apart from changing over a production type. Yes this is a far stretch, but it would be true for everything. I know we are going off topic as it was designed for Ammo conversation, and I am still unsure of how someone can make money off making ammo, the CP alone if I was to ship them in would make more money than the ammo itself, (unless that was jacked up too when the ammo production was in full swing). Currently I am making 7-8 lots of Nape reloads a day, for 14-16 Car Parts, way over priced as I can make more money moving those Car Parts to town to sell, however it is about convienience and some kind of self sustainment, the only problem I have is not being able to make MM ammo. I don't believe ammo should be the same amount of CR as the actual weapon.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:25 am	*The X Man* said: *StCrispin* said: 1 MM ammo (in a 54% factory with a 12.5% boost) uses 7 CP, 1/4th unit food, 1/4th unit water So when you click on your MM ammo factory, it says takes 7 CPs, 0.25 units or water and 0.25 units of food??? No, because the food an water requirement varies based on the "Worker Priority" setting you set, and the number of workers working (noted in the text that prints out when you click your factory) that shop. If you had, for example only 6 workers working you would only need 1/2 as much food.  However you would require twice as much time to produce the item (as noted in the box indicating time needed).  Which in the end would be exactly the same food and water requirement. You CAN, if you want, EXPLOIT this. get 12 workers working a factory, then put all your food and water in a Lorry.  As the workers leave camp seeking food and water, they will be pulled from the lowest priority jobs (or from the idle pool).  Often, if you have enough workers, you can produce an item without food and water for a few days, depending on your population.  then just put out a day's worth of food and water and the guys who left will return. If you feel like all that trouble to save yourself a couple hundred bucks.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:27 am	*The X Man* said: Krakhedd said: The food and water are nowhere near as easily obtainable for many camps as the CPs etc.  Those are valid costs, no matter which way you try to twist it, sorry. You can't twist fact. Does or does it not show the amount of food and water needed in production of your ammo factory?? A simple yes or no will do nicely. Yes. You left off part of what it displays: Number of workers working a factory.  That in turn tells you how much food and water you expend. This is like asking if your Car tells you how many miles per gallon it gets.  It does if you divide the total range by the amount of fuel. As in this case: number of workers times the required food and water per worker times the number of days required to make an item
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:30 am	*The X Man* said: Krakhedd said: And the answer to your question is, not exactly - it shows it as 12 NPCs working in the factory Thats about as weak an answer as expected, especially when you know what it says. Since you can't figure it out, I have included an example for you. No food or water requirements. Even though this is a engine factory, I am pretty sure it wouldn't require more items to make simple ammo clips?? I would ask right or wrong, but you seem to have an issue with one word responses. In this example, even though you have HIDDEN the FACTS needed to determine food and water requirements... 12 workers x 0.10 food per worker per day x 2.67 days = 3.20 food 3.20 water But, again I think the Wiki is incorrect.  My camp in Texan uses 6 food and 6 water per day.  However I have enough NPC workers that it should exceed that if the Wiki were correct.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 3:31 am	X Man. Show me where it says you need a camp in your example to produce that engine. I don't see it saying I need a camp. That's your version of logic
Krakhedd Posted Jan 2, 2016, 5:29 am	*StCrispin* said: X Man. Show me where it says you need a camp in your example to produce that engine.  I don't see it saying I need a camp. That's your version of logic x2 Myopic and short-sighted, at best.  Blatantly, perhaps willfully, ignorant or otherwise incapable of grasping the concepts, at worst.
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 6:52 am	Krakhedd said: *StCrispin* said: X Man. Show me where it says you need a camp in your example to produce that engine.  I don't see it saying I need a camp. That's your version of logic x2 Myopic and short-sighted, at best.  Blatantly, perhaps willfully, ignorant or otherwise incapable of grasping the concepts, at worst. Check the Wiki. Lots of camp info there. **If you remove all food and water from camp you can still produce whatever your factory is set to make** Also krak, if you start using insults again in your posts, remember Sam has already issued you a formal warning for such behavior.
*Splurs* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 7:46 am	I don't know about the rest of the DW community, but I am getting sick to death of a thread getting started about a legitimate issue/concern, only to high jacked by "A D#ck slinging competition"  if you want to do that go do it somewhere else, and only post legitimate content to this post! Quote: Also krak, if you start using insults again in your posts, remember Sam has already issued you a formal warning for such behavior. Yes Krak is out of line by his comment, but if he get punished for it I hope you get done for trolling X. I don't know if you genuinely cannot see what Crisp and Krak are talking about OR you are on purpose trolling for the remarks Krak has said. Lets get back to Ammo production, and ALL its costs. Same as any other item production would be done.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 7:51 am	*The X Man* said: **If you remove all food and water from camp you can still produce whatever your factory is set to make** Correct.  This is an Exploit.  And Cheating. (Also it will only produce until all NPC leave camp, which takes sometimes as much as 2 weeks).
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 9:27 am	Splurs said: I don't know about the rest of the DW community, but I am getting sick to death of a thread getting started about a legitimate issue/concern, only to high jacked by "A D#ck slinging competition"  if you want to do that go do it somewhere else, and only post legitimate content to this post! Quote: Also krak, if you start using insults again in your posts, remember Sam has already issued you a formal warning for such behavior. Yes Krak is out of line by his comment, but if he get punished for it I hope you get done for trolling X. I don't know if you genuinely cannot see what Crisp and Krak are talking about OR you are on purpose trolling for the remarks Krak has said. Lets get back to Ammo production, and ALL its costs. Same as any other item production would be done. Because I dispute their claim on what they think are legit expenses is trolling?? I don't think so. Everything I posted was trying to get them to provide an accurate cost of things you actually use to produce an item. Do I care they wish to make ammo at camp? NO, not in the slightest. They can make as much as they want till it overflows over camp fences, I still don't care. Sam made a change to ammo production, but based on their figures, it still may not be good enough by their calculations. I would rather see more than one camp come up with their own figures, then compare to make things accurate to determine if any further changes are necessary. So thats a hint Splurs, lets see what you come up with.
*Awefense* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 9:42 am	I'd join in the ammo production research, but simply put, I'm too cheap to spend the cash to switch factories over. Trying to stay in the black over here. Awefense
*Splurs* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:09 pm	Quote: So thats a hint Splurs, lets see what you come up with. I have done the research with Nape ammo currently as at page 4 of this topic Quote: I have just switched to nape ammo, takes 34 hrs 2 car parts, that is at 1% I have no upgraded it to 10%, and it is running at 3 hrs. (I can only assume it is 3.4 hrs because last daily reset I only made 7 not 8) I was also the one that started the CC ammo that caused this who thread. Quote: Because I dispute their claim on what they think are legit expenses is trolling?? I don't think so. Everything I posted was trying to get them to provide an accurate cost of things you actually use to produce an item. No I don't believe this to be trolling, however when your informed of how they are calulating it, with food/water/and with the inclusion and exclusion of CP as 2 different figures, and you are saying those things don't count then I see that as trolling. As far as I can see Crisp has done all he can with the figures he has to get an accurate price, and all I see you doing is trying to poke holes into it. One factory or 15 in a camp it shouldn't matter, ALL costs associated with that type of ammo production should be looked at.
*The X Man* Posted Jan 2, 2016, 7:43 pm	Splurs, that is helpful info to those who would consider making ammo, but you have not included one thing involving cost. If cost is not a concern for you and just production results, thats fine, I can live with that. Ammo production did need a tweak which Sam addressed, so you should see those improvements benefit your needs.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 2, 2016, 10:38 pm	*The X Man* said: Splurs, that is helpful info to those who would consider making ammo, but you have not included one thing involving cost. If cost is not a concern for you and just production results, thats fine, I can live with that. Ammo production did need a tweak which Sam addressed, so you should see those improvements benefit your needs. I already crunched the numbers for Splurs example.  You merely scoffed at it and moved on to your "that doesn't count" argument. As it stands, if the need for CPs to make the ammo were removed and the rest were left the same the cost to produce ammunition is about 2x the cost to buy it in town. ---(barring the inclusion of coincidental costs like ammo expended in defenses and such, which is not calculable as it would vary from player to player and case by case) This seems realistic to me, as it saves fuel cost and repairs for hauling it in by cargo vehicle.  To other is may still not make sense (and from an economic point of view still doesn't make sense because it brings to question how the NPCs can manufacture it and sell it at a profit for HALF of what it would cost them to MAGICALLY produce it from thin air without materiel or work) However, with the inclusion of parts it simple becomes absurd in cost. As an example, the parts needed to produce HMG ammunition ($86 in town) costs an average of $750 - $1050 in parts alone. and even if you produced it in the town with the lowest cost for CPs (Sarsfield) it would still cost $258 in parts alone for the NPCs to magically conjure it without labor. That's 3x what they sell it for. Show me a business that spends $3 to make $1 (other than the US Government)
*Splurs* Posted Jan 3, 2016, 1:36 am	Quote: Show me a business that spends $3 to make $1 (other than the US Government) The Australian Government. Quote: If cost is not a concern for you and just production results, thats fine, I can live with that. Cost is not a real concern with me, however it did seem like one that made ammo so hard to make in the past, hence it got tweaked, I just want a worthwhile ammo production, both with time and with CP/Scrap if that was ever to be put into it. My issue would arrise once it gets to the point of CP cost and the hassle of moving them to town to sell becomes more favorable to do than make ammo, thus making it more about money than actual playing the game. Lorry moving in the northern triangle is almost no risk, so that isn't the problem. Any if i wanted to make money I would pump out the lower MR items and sell them in SS (SMGs, racks, LMGs). I don't want it to become about money, however I also dont want it to be looked at as money not mattering either.
*goat starer* Posted Jan 3, 2016, 2:00 am	1. governments are not businesses.. they are never expected to make money. that wold be silly... 2. where governments do run businesses (as all do) their bottom line is calculated not by the money that business makes, but by the prospective losses in other areas it mitigates. Government spending cannot possibly be calculated in the same way as a business that does no incur other costs if what it does causes other bits of the social system to collapse. this is really basic economics understood by everyone outside of the loony fringe of the right incidentally. from an economic analysis, and with shifting parameters, X is entirely right. Crispin, Krakk and others are including costs in the the production costs that ae themselves in part met by the production. crispins rather childish analysis assumes people buy all their materials in the AI market... others make a more adult attempt to understand the flow of money in the equation which is pretty interesting but possible to model. part of the issue is that different camps also produce other items which change the equation. but fundamentally the point that car parts and a good whack of other ingredients are free to the camp owner (because there is no scarcity in wild items generating them) is true and important. when you produce a clip you typically produce more than the materials to recreate it from its own output. unless you are rubbish at the game.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 3, 2016, 2:21 am	this isn't about the camps.  this is about the NPC economy. Show me what the NPCs pay for their materiels, food, water and labor and then show me how they make a profit selling the items produced.  Where do the NPCs selling $86 HMG ammo that even in SF costs them 3x that for CPs to make it, buy their CPs? This is systemic to the game.  Not just Ammunition.  a close analysis of Weapons compared to town prices (varies by town however) will show similar inconsistences. Now go derail someone else's thread instead of chasing me around the forums trolling me.
*The X Man* Posted Jan 3, 2016, 3:09 am	*StCrispin* said: this isn't about the camps.  this is about the NPC economy. Show me what the NPCs pay for their materiels, food, water and labor and then show me how they make a profit selling the items produced.  Where do the NPCs selling $86 HMG ammo that even in SF costs them 3x that for CPs to make it, buy their CPs? This is systemic to the game.  Not just Ammunition.  a close analysis of Weapons compared to town prices (varies by town however) will show similar inconsistences. Now go derail someone else's thread instead of chasing me around the forums trolling me. The forum thread is titled "Ammo Production", not NPC Economy. Even krak's opening remarks, Krakhedd said: I'd like to open a discourse on camp ammo production. You turned it into an economic issue. The thread wasn't wasted. It did resolve some issues and got a tweak from Sam. Players like Splurs we see the benefit from it, so it did do some good. As far as your economic crusade, we all know its not perfect, we all know it needs adjusting, but we all know it most likely won't happen because, *sam* said: Krakhedd said: I'd still like to see an economy like Sam told me he wanted once in an IM - like Eve, where every single sale is tracked and prices from NPCs reflect it. So would I! I'm not sure if it's feasible in DW1 though. But in DW2 for sure. So Sam knows. There are always going to be hidden numbers to DW that you will never see or know how they work. Thats part of DW that creates game players and not spreadsheet workers. But if you really feel the need to discuss it further, I suggest creating a new thread about the economy and the issues you would like to resolve. Just remember what Sam said, major changes will most likely not happen, so don't get disappointed if it doesn't. So instead, enjoy the game for what it is.
Krakhedd Posted Jan 3, 2016, 5:05 am	If the focus is on making this feature "more viable" without allowing it to become "ridiculously profitable", we already have made it an economic issue. But I'm not the one who had that problem or raised that point (and ergo created the "economics" debate we are having), and if we are using numbers from town without considering fuel or ammo or armor lost when moving these reloads to town, then there's no way a profit could be made. Why not have ammo production ramped up to that point? The point where it's still unprofitable to move the ammo to towns, but, camp owners receive maximum benefit? It's friggin' reloads, for crying out loud.....so that we can scout from camp more often and have more fun....which is what a game is supposed to be, fun!!
Krakhedd Posted Jan 10, 2016, 7:44 am	UPDATE: 100% factory, 12 workers, 172 MR, MM reloads 10 reloads per day, 70 CPs TGs I got to glance at briefly, after I'd re-tooled a 2nd factory but before weekly upkeeps, and it was 5 TG reloads for another factory @ 100% w/ 12 workers. However, it's easy to go through 4 TG reloads in a single event, with a single TG-bearing build, so, that's still not a lot. And MMs....I have had events where I went through 40 MM reloads. So 10 a day for a camp that's being actively scouted from, by multiple players, who also need reloads. Also, on the point of profiteering, and hopefully, a successful point to further raise production rates: If we raise production rates to reflect ONLY the camp expenses, that is, we exclude the fuel & armor repair costs (in general, the fixed & variable costs of logistics for the cargo), there is no way to earn a profit producing ammo and re-selling in towns. Said another way, even if every camp cost, right down to the food & water the NPCs consume, are considered for calculating the cost of making reloads in camps, there's still no way to make a profit, because we haven't provided any additional margin for fuel expenses, and armor repairs. So, to take that ammo to town to sale, would be a loss by default. Ergo, I would argue production rates of ammo should be raised to this threshhold, to maximize gameplay fun without while still maintaining the balance against profiteering that seems to be the only objection to increased rates. And, again, I don't want to make money off of selling ammo in towns. I want my camp members, many of whom are active scouters or otherwise scout-capable, to have as much fun as possible. And, one other thought - I'm not even able to provide 1 combat's worth of ammo for myself, much less anybody else, in a whole day's production in two factories. And I'm only digging into MMs and TGs, not even counting the CCs, HMGs, HGGs, NGs, etc, that for now still need to be hauled in or looted, much less the cost to change production to different ammo types.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 10, 2016, 10:30 pm	It seems overkill to have to make ammo in factories. An alternate option: Maybe add a camp building which doesn't cost much upkeep (Fame obligation) or no upkeep, and have a MARKETPLACE you can build in camp. At this Marketplace you could buy ammo (or trade for it with CPs or food/water or scrap metal) or even trade FOR scrap or CP or whatever. Price dependent on your Merchant reputation or something. Worse rep, higher cost. Or have it be a different local faction each day, or limited in some way, or whatnot. This would tend to limit it to oversized camps with more room than they need but its an option. Right now even increasing production rates by x10 probably wouldn't compare to the value of just selling the CPs you had to burn to make the ammo. I burned 300 (worth $105,000 had I just sold them) in 3 days to make 100 HMG ammo worth $8,600. Then I ran out of CPs, which shut down the 5L shop, the BPU shop and the HRR shop.
Ragnak Posted Jan 11, 2016, 2:34 pm	I don't believe anyone yet has figured the true cost of producing ammo at a camp yet. We always try to lump all of the camp upkeep costs as an expense to one factory producing something. People forget that many camps have multiple factories, they are getting free armor repair, equipment repair, etc. All of that needs to be factored. Finally, I have never known any camp who paid money for car parts. Most camps don't even give members who contribute car parts squat for them as they have huge backloads of the stuff in lorries. Trying to use town sale prices for these items just seems wrong to me.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 11, 2016, 8:59 pm	Ragnak said: People forget that many camps have multiple factories, they are getting free armor repair, equipment repair, etc. All of that needs to be factored. Those factories costs are factored into the items THEY produce, and I think by *Free Repair* you mean Repairs that cost parts?  Its hard to determine the real *cost* of *Free* Repairs. Quote: Finally, I have never known any camp who paid money for car parts. Most camps don't even give members who contribute car parts squat for them as they have huge backloads of the stuff in lorries. You Obviously haven't been a member of any of my camps or the ones I manage. True I don't *buy* and haul 10 space CAR PARTS.  But I DO buy Light Rockets (3 CP for 4 bulk) and other Weapons as well as 1L, 1.2L 1.6L engines and take those to camp and scrap them.  (ever wonder why Texan and Sarsfield and sometimes Badlands has no weapons or small engines on the market?  Now you know)  Prices are similar between weapon cost and CP value but hauling a gun is less bulk (And at one point I was accused of exploiting for doing it).  However, Scrap and EP from these weapons is often a partial profit (if you bring them to town to sell) when doing this Yes after burning 300...  Well, 298.8 CPs making HMG ammo in my test run, I purchased PURCHASED $114,500 worth of weapons in TX to haul to camp to recoup the CPs I used.  Why?  Because MR 59 isn't high enough to allow a Scout Squad to operate with weapons or armor on their vehicles due to CR limitations.  So I couldn't even TRY to get *Free* (Parts that cost Ammo and Parts to replace whats broken getting them) Parts. Plus try to scout enough in 3 days to make 300 CPs in a camp with 54-65 MR and see how you fare.  It may be possible at 65 MR as you will be allowed to have enough CR in camp to run 2 squads back to back.  That's JUST to run the ammo factory, not the chassis, weapon or engine factory.  Scout more for those!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 11, 2016, 9:40 pm	In the Example of the Texan Camp, lets look at some math. Lets make it a Word Problem: --- "Mutie lovin" Bubba Briskit finished eating a Triskit and wondered how he could recover the 300 CP the camp burned up in 3 days.  His Camp couldn't Scout for parts due to a low Mech Rating: 56.  So he had to rely on Pickups transporting CPs or Weapons from Texan.     His *Workhorse* Class A armored 3.2L PUs could haul 140 Bulk each.  The had to be refueled in camp (with fuel that it cost him about 78 cents to make, no big deal) but cost $10 when the truck got back to Texan.   He assumed the drivers were so skilled they could make the round trip with no damage at all.  He knew this was Pie in the Sky but WTF he figured.  His maths weren't good enough to figure out the average cost to repair when they got to TX since it changed trip to trip.     So his driver could bring him 35 Light rockets per trip (140 bulk / 4 bulk).  Each would produce 3 CP.  Normally Items had a + or - 50% chance to produce more or less CPs meaning it was really closer to 2-5, but 3 was most common output.  Each LR took 20 mech Points to break down. If the trucks need no repairs, How many LRs can Bubba break down?  How many CPs will he produce? Mech Rating:56 Mech Points: 1151 per day LR requires: 20 Mech Pts 1151/20=57.77 Bubba can roll 2 Pickups and supply enough LRs each day to max out his Mech Pts. He can break down (Assuming the trucks need no repairs): 57 LR per day This gives him 114 CP per day He needs 6 truck and 6 drivers to accomplish his goal in 3 days.  (to supply ONLY the HMG manufacturing facility) Cost of 171 LR: (Texan prices $174 each): $29,754 Value in town of HMG ammo made with 342 CP (114 reloads): $1204 Nope no profit there. (If this were SS, the cost for the LRs would be a little more than 5 times higher: $116, 964)
Ragnak Posted Jan 12, 2016, 5:15 pm	Guess my experience has been the opposite of yours whether it was a camp I managed or was a member of. At all of them, car parts had no value. Plug $0 in your equations above for car parts and the story is quite different (and much shorter). The only thing good thing about car parts is that you threw them on the trash pile as you needed in order to manage the bulk load at the camp. As to the 300 car parts in 3 days burn rate. Easily met even with a camp with 50 MR. I maintained El Dorado weekly fame drop (27 points) by scouting from camp with two combat groups whose CR was 600-700 each. Each group would typically scout twice a day for two days for a total of 4 runs. Each run would net me 2-4 cars each. Breaking down 8-16 cars, their weapons, and their engines gave me a huge excess of car parts for the camp. I would also supplement the camp with a BPU cargo of MML and RL for the needed EPs. At the end of the two days, I would have a lorry run back to SS with a load of car parts to bulk sell (240 units). 2 days scouting for 240 units was pretty easy to do. Are there any other camps struggling with car parts like StCrispin? If so, an opportunity might exist for CP truckers to work the camps.
*The X Man* Posted Jan 12, 2016, 6:23 pm	Ragnak said: Are there any other camps struggling with car parts like StCrispin? If so, an opportunity might exist for CP truckers to work the camps. Probably not, but you can see the difference in the level fun when one uses a spreadsheet to play. Perhaps Ragnak, we should take up a collection. I will start by donating 100 CPs. Once we get a few more donations, we should help deliver it too. I just hate to see camps struggle with production.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 12, 2016, 11:33 pm	*The X Man* said: Ragnak said: Are there any other camps struggling with car parts like StCrispin? If so, an opportunity might exist for CP truckers to work the camps. Probably not, but you can see the difference in the level fun when one uses a spreadsheet to play. Perhaps Ragnak, we should take up a collection. I will start by donating 100 CPs. Once we get a few more donations, we should help deliver it too. I just hate to see camps struggle with production. Yeah my camp is shut down again due to no parts. I do however wonder how you can break 100 CP worth of weapons in a day in a 50 MR camp when a 54 MR camp only gets 1151 Mech points.  Looking at the breakdown tables IN THE WIKI (Not a spreadsheet) the conversion rate for CPs to Mech points needed to break them is 1 for 10.  Pretty much all weapons fit this rate.  The IS the fact that you can potentially get a random increase in output of CPs of up to 50% but that is based on a random factor to simulate Mechanics doing well or messing up. At that conversion the expected CP output (if you don't have to repair your scout cars for even 1 point of damage) would mean a 54 MR camp could break 115 CP from weapons (if you jigsaw puzzled it to use all mech points perfectly) Not sure how many Mech points a 50 MR camp gets.  Wiki doesn't say.  Im guessing less than a 54 does.  Anyone have a solid figure?  Hard to know maximum potential CP output without on. Either way.  Its unlikely that a 50 MR camp can produce 100 CP from breakdowns in a day because even a 54 cant unless you can scout without sustaining more than a half dozen points in armor damage in a day
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 12, 2016, 11:45 pm	More Math: A MINT loot car, on average, would produce 6 CP for its weapons (potentially 9 with a random 50% boost) given an average car having a MMG+MG combo. Assuming 50% of your pull is +50% CP output then you would have 7-8 CP per car. Call it 8 for ease of calculation You said you scouted twice a day, and brought back 2-4 cars. Even if you brought in 4 cars, all in MINT condition. That's only 8 cars a day. 8 cars X 8 CP average = 64 CP per day. If all cars are in MINT condition.
Bolt Thrower Posted Jan 12, 2016, 11:58 pm	*StCrispin* said: I do however wonder how you can break 100 CP worth of weapons in a day in a 50 MR camp when a 54 MR camp only gets 1151 Mech points. Not all 50 MR camps have the same amount of mech points.  Mech points are a function of total mech skill of listed mechs in camp.  MR is a function of %Activity of mech shops and the mech skill of listed mechs.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 13, 2016, 12:07 am	Bolt Thrower said: *StCrispin* said: I do however wonder how you can break 100 CP worth of weapons in a day in a 50 MR camp when a 54 MR camp only gets 1151 Mech points. Not all 50 MR camps have the same amount of mech points.  Mech points are a function of total mech skill of listed mechs in camp.  MR is a function of %Activity of mech shops and the mech skill of listed mechs. Fair enough.  In my case all Mechs in camp are working in a 100% shop. Im assuming you are saying that Mechanics not working in a shop add to Mech Points?  Otherwise, if there are MORE mechs in the 50 MR camp than in the 54 MR camp, it would have an effect on MR and not just MP. Again, without hard numbers, Im theorizing.  I'd love to see the numbers on how this would work out.  8 loot cars a day somehow having enough mint weapons on them to produce 100 CP or more per day adds to my thoughts that maybe Rag didn't take everything into account. Bottom line though, even if producing Ammo took NO PARTS AT ALL, it would still be twice as costly to produce them in camp as to buy them.  making the use of a factory to produce them counter productive considering the $110,000 cost to convert it to Ammo, and then who knows how much more to switch it to something useful when you decide it isn't worth it.
Bolt Thrower Posted Jan 13, 2016, 12:26 am	Yes, the mechs listed as occupying your mech shops add to mech points and CR totals for camp. So 8 shops means 32 mech contribute. MR is more complex and I haven't figured it out yet.
Ragnak Posted Jan 14, 2016, 6:47 am	*StCrispin* said: More Math: A MINT loot car, on average, would produce 6 CP for its weapons (potentially 9 with a random 50% boost) given an average car having a MMG+MG combo. Assuming 50% of your pull is +50% CP output then you would have 7-8 CP per car.  Call it 8 for ease of calculation You said you scouted twice a day, and brought back 2-4 cars. Even if you brought in 4 cars, all in MINT condition.  That's only 8 cars a day. 8 cars X 8 CP average = 64 CP per day. If all cars are in MINT condition. Of course you have to factor in the half dozen extra weapons brought in from cars not salvaged, the car parts in the loot box, and the car parts from scrapped engines. Yes, your mech points will be all gone everyday breaking down stuff and I rarely have damage to fix. I also noted 2 combat groups scouting twice a day so you need to double all your numbers.
*Longo* Posted Jan 14, 2016, 1:58 pm	Is this really a 6 page thread on camp ammo production? WOW! I think I am gonna start one "Trump for President" and see if I can hit 500 pages...
DirkNotSoGently Posted Jan 14, 2016, 2:26 pm	*Longo* said: I think I am gonna start one "Trump for President" and see if I can hit 500 pages... Oh dear Dog! Quick! QUICK!!! Thread hijacker! Someone stop him!
Krakhedd Posted Jan 18, 2016, 2:38 am	I'm tilting more and more away from "ammo should be made in factories", to "ammo should be available in a camp NPC market, with limits, and higher prices based on range from home town". I'm really not getting much out of it, even with the increased production levels (which are still very low, relative to town costs and excluding CP costs but including camp expenses directly involved in production). Not to mention, the variable costs associated w/ hitting a higher MR, in order to make, say, MM ammo. Plus, the fact that two factories that were making stuff for people, are now making small quantities of ammo. It still makes a LOT more sense to have ammo I would love to see housing go away in favor of paying camp NPCs like $100 a day to work in factories too, and the lower the cumulative activity, the fewer workers are needed.....which would also be great since the number of available NPC workers is often significantly different from the number needed, either high or low....and why would I pay NPCs to just sit at my camp and literally do nothing other than consume food & water....